@Yorumi In that they develop shades of nuance within the broad scope of their characterization. Nia and Pyra, for example, have basic assumptions and attitudes of theirs fundamentally shaken or altered through the course of the game.
Currently Playing: Metroid Prime 4: Beyond (NS2); Corpse Factory (PC)
@Agriculture The Vita failed for multiple reasons, one being that they ONLY had JRPGs and indies. You attract people through a wide swath of games. The Switch isn't popular because Zelda is on it, it's popular because it has Zelda AND Mario (platformer), Splatoon (shooter), ARMS (fighter), Mario Kart (racing), and Xenoblade (JRPG), along with more on the horizon like Smash Bros (platform fighter) and Fire Emblem (strategy RPG). If it just had games like Xenoblade, of course it's going to fail. The Wii U failed for similar reasons, one being that a huge majority of the excellent games on it were platformers like 3D World and Tropical Freeze. Third-parties have also jumped onto the Switch scene, not just indies but a few AAA third-parties too, and this is going to only grow as we go along. The Vita and Wii U failed because of the lack of options while the Switch and PS4 thrive because of said options.
Western and Japanese developers also have very different design philosophies that don't inherently make them better or worse than the others. With the type of game Xenoblade is, a lot of "Western" stuff wouldn't mesh well with the system they're going for with all the systems that layer on top of each other. The only flaw with the tutorials in the game is the fact you can't revisit them at all, something both Xenoblade 1 and X fixed already.
1. The Switch is doing much better than the PS Vita did, and of course that has multiple reasons. One of the reasons were that they relied too much on visual novels and JRPGs. I'd hate to see the Switch do the same mistake.
2. I'm sort of with Phil Fish on this one, Japanese developers need to step up their game. They can't just say "it's our philosophy" when not making organic gameplay where they player naturally learns. Especially when Nintendo is involved, the company that made Super Mario Bros 1-1, a level where the player learned everything he would need in a natural way. Of course 3D RPGs can't achieve that level of natural learning because they are simply too complex, they can however do a better job than XBC2.
3. Variety is of course good, but the biggest profile releases can't be niche products. XBC2 is one of the biggest profile releases for the Switch, and it's not very welcoming to new players.
Speaking of variety, I would really like it if Nintendo brought back Wave Race. Aqua Moto Racing Utopia isn't really cutting it.
@Agriculture
1) That's literally what I said and even compared it to the Wii U's problem of having too much platformers as its main part of the good games.
2) Do they? And some games don't lend themselves as easily to "organic" gameplay, especially when dealing with a game like Xenoblade with multiple systems in play. Comparing a platformer with an RPG is like comparing a loaf of garlic bread with a pizza with multiple toppings.
3) They very well can be. Who cares if it's niche? As long as enough people give it a shot and it gets enough attention, that's perfectly fine. Consumers know what they're getting into, and if they're not interested there's a bevy of other games to play. Good games sell themselves, but more exposure helps even more. It's how we get more games like Bayonetta 3 on the horizon.
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@Agriculture
1) That's literally what I said and even compared it to the Wii U's problem of having too much platformers as its main part of the good games.
2) Do they? And some games don't lend themselves as easily to "organic" gameplay, especially when dealing with a game like Xenoblade with multiple systems in play. Comparing a platformer with an RPG is like comparing a loaf of garlic bread with a pizza with multiple toppings.
3) They very well can be. Who cares if it's niche? As long as enough people give it a shot and it gets enough attention, that's perfectly fine. Consumers know what they're getting into, and if they're not interested there's a bevy of other games to play. Good games sell themselves, but more exposure helps even more. It's how we get more games like Bayonetta 3 on the horizon.
1. The PS Vita didn't have "just JRPGs", it had other games too. It's not black and white, and the Switch could easily fall into the trap of relying too much on JRPGs. My point was that the PS Vita had lots of problems, and too many JRPGs that aren't friendly to new players was one of those problems.
2. XBC2 could have handled it with enemies that tested the skill. You'll only be able to finish this enemy if you hit it from the side with the spinning sword attack.
3. A new console needs a handful of mainstream games to get enough of an install base. The Switch has been out for over a year now. So, let's assume Average Joe bought a Switch last summer. He has bought Breath of the Wild, Odyssey and Mario Kart. Now he's looking for another action adventure game, and XBC2 is the game that is out now. He loads it up and immediately run into a wall of text that explains something about blades, combos and drivers.
I wouldn't even be complaining about this, if it wasn't for the fact that it's one of the few high profile exclusives for the Switch so far. Nintendo has always done a great job to ensure their games are approachable, and as publisher for this game, they could have done more to ensure it was better presented.
@Agriculture
1) Ok, so? The Wii U also didn't have just platformers too, what's the point of this anyway? This isn't a JRPG problem, it's a centralizing on one genre problem.
2) Maybe they could have done it that way. On the other hand, if you're not going to make use of what you're given and ignore all the stuff the game gives you, a lot of the blame is going to go on the player. One failing of Xenoblade 2 is the lack of going back to tutorials, but aside from that they tell you everything you need to know and it's all drip-fed so you don't get overwhelmed.
3) So? The niche games are coming alongside the mainstream games. We're getting Fire Emblem AND Smash, etc. Also, if someone is going to buy a game without knowing what they're getting themselves into, that's also on them because Xenoblade 2 is not action-adventure like Zelda.
And who cares if Nintendo published the game? Did we need to raise a stinker when Metroid Prime or BotW released with their more open gameplay? Target audience is also important. They're not expecting people who play Mario or Smash to suddenly also just jump into Xenoblade or Metroid. If people can't be bothered to do some basic research, they're out of their mind.
@Yorumi
I don't really agree with that statement, honestly, unless we're talking about Xenoblade X. In terms of gameplay they feed into each other fairly well.
In Xenoblade 1 everyone has their "class" and set of Arts which complement that class, and doing autoattacks generally fills up their Talent Art which is among their best. Break -> Topple -> Daze is a core status element that works on 95% of enemies, and they give you the tools to make sure you can use them consistently and give strategic uses for them.
Xenoblade X is the biggest culprit in that it actually doesn't tell you anything within the game, only giving you a manual and shrugging its shoulders. Overdrive was also never explained. In a way however, this could potentially be refreshing to some if people want to simply just go as they please, but it's definitely not for everyone.
Xenoblade 2 though, also gives you classes (but lets you mix them up per character) and has the natural progression of autoattacks -> Arts -> Specials -> Chain Attacks introduced throughout the game up to mid-Chapter 3, while also allowing one of the core status effects of the series, Driver Combos (Break -> Topple etc), to be stacked on-top of that layer.
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I'm enjoying the game, but I do see a lot of flaws with it that could have been corrected if it had been developed for a more western audience. Lots of the flaws with the game are cardinal sins if you're asking western game developers. Things like the previously mentioned wall of text tutorials, the large number of systems of attack, the quick time events.
All I'm saying is that it's a shame they went this route with this game, since it will scare away lots of consumers in the west.
Walls of text? In an RPG? Heaven forbid.
This is not a JRPG thing; it's an RPG thing - western, Japanese, Korean, Martian, whatever. People who play RPGs, as a loose, general rule, don't mind reading. I don't see it as a fault, and think it's weird that someone else would. You definitely have a point about the way they breeze through the tutorials, though.
Also agreed, anyone who came into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 looking for another fix of Zelda is going to be sorely disappointed. But XC2 is an RPG, not an action adventure. Anyone who came to XC2 looking for more Splatoon, Mario Kart or Odyssey would also be pretty peeved. And vice versa.
I keep responding - I don't know why. There are so many reasonable responses, but nobody looks like changing your mind. But hey, it's your mind. Have fun with it!
XC2 has a lot of flaws, but an "overly complex" battle system isn't one of them.
My gripes with the game are more the annoying compass, the bad sound design (the music is awesome, but the mix is sometimes horrible with the music drowning out the dialouge, as is some of the delivery from the voice actors) and an inconsistent tone in the story telling, with it jumping wildly between being serious and not (and sometimes the soundtrack doesn't help, as the music sometimes really doesn't fit the mood of a scene).
Dumbing down the battle system would make the game dull. Sure, there are a lot of things to keep track of, but once you get the hang of it, it's very satisfying, even though I can see it's not for everyone, but does it has to be? There should have been a way to be able to view some kind of battle guide ingame, but that's a minor complaint from me. Overall, I think the system is good and some other people have said it better than I in this thread.
While the tutorials could definitely be improved upon, the solution isn't turning the Xenoblade franchise into some kind of BotW style clone.
The endgame of most genres appears to either be a BotW style open world adventure or a multiplayer game stripped of its personality to be suitable for esports which is sad especially as when it's successful the developers tend to avoid returning to the older styles.
So, I finished the game. The ending cutscenes were cool and all: I enjoyed watching them on YouTube when my game started stuttering and crushed after the final boss fight.
What annoys me is that, looking online, this particular problem is months old.
As much as I loved this game (and I really did enjoy it: the best JRPG I've played in a loooooooooong time. I'm even prepared to say I like it more than Persona 5, and I bought a PS4 for that game), it could have used another half-year in the oven.
I ended up fighting the final boss a SECOND time and skipping the last cutscene, which allowed me to save my game so that I can eventually start a New Game+ playthrough.
Am I alone in thinking that the fight against Amalthus was significantly more difficult than the final boss fight? I died to that particular boss multiple times, but I killed the last boss on my first go both times (with a full burst no less, which is a pretty epic way to finish him off).
Oh, and while I absolutely loved the ending before the credits, that Hollywood-esque scene DURING the credits can go take a hike. It completely removes the gravity and emotion previously established by Pyra's sacrifice and Rex's ultimate step into adulthood when he had to learn to "let go." I hate when stories try to manipulate the audience with a heroic sacrifice and then pull back from it at the very last second because they don't want to commit to ending things like that!.
So, yeah, it didn't entirely nail the landing for me. But still: absolutely amazing game overall. Easily the funnest Switch exclusive I've played so far, and I expect it to stay that way for quite a while.
Currently Playing: Metroid Prime 4: Beyond (NS2); Corpse Factory (PC)
@Grumblevolcano I don't see why it couldn't have released in early 2018. Would probably have been a much more polished product, and it would have taken the edge off of 2018's disappointing release schedule on Switch so far.
Currently Playing: Metroid Prime 4: Beyond (NS2); Corpse Factory (PC)
As I recall, when Mario + Rabbids first came out, the final part of the game was also pretty glitchy, and the final boss fight actually crashed a few times before I managed to get through it.
What's up with my favorite Switch exclusives all being glitchy messes early on?
Currently Playing: Metroid Prime 4: Beyond (NS2); Corpse Factory (PC)
@Ralizah Yeah, this game was definitely rushed, and it frustrates me because of that. The story has my biggest complaints in the game and I think a big part of that was because they had to rush it. Ah well, it's still pretty good and they nailed the characters, so I'm satisfied enough but still sort of disappointed.
As for the final boss, it was generally pretty easy, yes. Amalthus was harder to a degree. In general just like Xenoblade 1 though, the game is pretty easy. (Xenoblade X was pretty challenging, though both in good and bad ways)
The ending, well. Generally among the people I talk to and the other forums I browse, it's a bit split in that some people hate it, others loved it, and some like me can see either side but ultimately can lean either way. I mentioned this in another thread here, but for my expanded thoughts: I think they've already foreshadowed that in Chapter 7 that they can come back back when Malos talked about how Pyra could be able to survive for a short while without their Core Crystal, transferring her half back to Rex. I don't think it's not entirely explained that they could come back afterwards, but once that happened when she transferred her Core Crystal half to Rex I was thinking "they're not gonna kill her". But for bigger reasons I think the post-ending scene makes sense are a few things: it still develops Rex as a character and it complements the optimistic and hopeful theme the game goes with. I'll explain the first: throughout the game he makes dumb decisions because he doesn't want to stand by idly while other people are in danger, eg Vandham and how he messed up there. In Chapter 7, Addam calls out Rex, saying he's greedy in wanting to protect everyone and telling him there's a limit to how much someone can do so. So during that scene, he decides to do the complete opposite of what pre-Chapter 7 Rex would have done and it turns out everything would have worked out. If it didn't work out, it would have been casted doubts on Rex thinking if he would have done the right thing, where he tries to avenge Vandham's death but fails, and he lets Pyra go but stays dead, so by association he fails too. For the second reason: the villains all have nihilism as their main motivations. Amalthus wants the whole world destroyed while he claims the Architect's power, Torna want to kill the Architect and humanity because of being wronged, etc. Even Klaus felt the nihilist thoughts when he resigned himself to letting Amalthus take the Aegis Cores, only to be reversed after seeing Rex and Pyra. And in Chapter 7, the real reason why Pyra/Mythra want to go to Elysium is to die, but that changes after the chapter. Conquering nihilism is a running theme of the game, and killing them off would go against it in my opinion.
Now granted, you don't have to like the ending anyway and you can make the argument that keeping them dead would have left the emotional impact and leave Rex as a different character, and it is a legit argument. Some people have written their takes on what would have happened if they stayed dead, and it's all perfectly reasonable. But I personally don't think it would work in the context of this particular game.
I hope I worded that in a concise way. I get carried away when talking about this series. (I'm a self-proclaimed shill, it's in the signature)
@Ralizah Lineup perception probably. Getting that balance between new games and Wii U ports is important for year 1 so you bring in both Wii U owners and those who didn't own a Wii U. For year 2 it doesn't matter that much because the Wii U owners are already there.
I mentioned this in another thread here, but for my expanded thoughts: I think they've already foreshadowed that in Chapter 7 that they can come back back when Malos talked about how Pyra could be able to survive for a short while without their Core Crystal, transferring her half back to Rex. I don't think it's not entirely explained that they could come back afterwards, but once that happened when she transferred her Core Crystal half to Rex I was thinking "they're not gonna kill her". But for bigger reasons I think the post-ending scene makes sense are a few things: it still develops Rex as a character and it complements the optimistic and hopeful theme the game goes with. I'll explain the first: throughout the game he makes dumb decisions because he doesn't want to stand by idly while other people are in danger, eg Vandham and how he messed up there. In Chapter 7, Addam calls out Rex, saying he's greedy in wanting to protect everyone and telling him there's a limit to how much someone can do so. So during that scene, he decides to do the complete opposite of what pre-Chapter 7 Rex would have done and it turns out everything would have worked out. If it didn't work out, it would have been casted doubts on Rex thinking if he would have done the right thing, where he tries to avenge Vandham's death but fails, and he lets Pyra go but stays dead, so by association he fails too. For the second reason: the villains all have nihilism as their main motivations. Amalthus wants the whole world destroyed while he claims the Architect's power, Torna want to kill the Architect and humanity because of being wronged, etc. Even Klaus felt the nihilist thoughts when he resigned himself to letting Amalthus take the Aegis Cores, only to be reversed after seeing Rex and Pyra. And in Chapter 7, the real reason why Pyra/Mythra want to go to Elysium is to die, but that changes after the chapter. Conquering nihilism is a running theme of the game, and killing them off would go against it in my opinion.
Now granted, you don't have to like the ending anyway and you can make the argument that keeping them dead would have left the emotional impact and leave Rex as a different character, and it is a legit argument. Some people have written their takes on what would have happened if they stayed dead, and it's all perfectly reasonable. But I personally don't think it would work in the context of this particular game.
I hope I worded that in a concise way. I get carried away when talking about this series. (I'm a self-proclaimed shill, it's in the signature)
Interesting thoughts.
I wouldn't interpret Pyra dying as Rex "failing," though. And, honestly, based on the emotional logic of the scene when they last part in the space station, he wouldn't have, either. Accepting Pyra's death would have been a fitting capper to the theme of Rex being unwilling to accept that he can't always save the people around him. Moreover, the narrative logic of the group interacting with Rex was pretty clear to me: knowing when to let go and accept that some things in life aren't in your control is a big part of what it means to be an adult. The credits reveal undermines this crucial end to Rex's development, in my opinion. It's pretty common for "coming of age" fiction to end in a bittersweet manner as the protagonists learn to take the good with the bad and, in their mature state, coming to terms with the fact that life isn't always fair. Moreover, if Pyra had this hidden gambit to have her cake and eat it too, I don't see what the point was in Pyra's final space station scenes, where she talks about being glad that she got to know Rex. That's not the behavior of someone set on beating the odds and reuniting with her friends. Ending it with a Disney-ish happy ending betrays pretty much everything that came before, even if you could argue that it didn't come out of absolutely nowhere.
Regarding the villains: Amalthus' "nihilism" definitely didn't come out of nowhere, but seemed to be rooted in a formative experience early on when his mother is murdered for unknown reasons, and he proceeds to kill the murderer. This, alongside things like a soldier he helped at some point in the past trying to murder a woman and her child, seems to have convinced him of the inherent evilness of humanity. His inability to let go of rage and loathing was transferred to Malos, and the game seems to establish that Malos' will to end everything is inseperable from Amalthus' own troubled development. Unfortunately, the game doesn't really do enough, in my opinion, to connect the emotional logic of Amalthus' development and make him anything more than yet another evil pope character (his reveal as a straight-up villain was disappointing, as, despite foreshadowing of his evil nature, the game also went out of its way to establish his humanity in some respects, and I thought we were going to get a morally complex character out of him. Not so much.
Speaking of motives, I was sad to see that the theme of Torna struggling against the Architect because blades, unlike humans, are unable to die and transfer on their culture like humans, effectively removing their ability to collectively grow as a people, get dropped like a hot rock after it was introduced in Chapter... 7? Somewhere around there. Anyway, it was cool, uncomfortable, Blade Runner-esque idea that ultimately never went anywhere.
Regarding Pyra's "intent to die" that changes as she conquers meaninglessness and finds a reason to live: wouldn't that make it all the more poignant that, when she ends up dying anyway, it's to affirm life instead of give in to despair?
Well, those are my thoughts, anyway. You articulated yourself extremely well, though, and your reading of the ending might very well be spot on. It just doesn't feel right to me, though. Also, [spoiler]why were Pyra and Mythra separate people at the end? Before that, we only saw them as separate individuals when Klaus was exploring their inner fears and doubts. Mythra says pretty early on in the game that Pyra is "a self I constructed," which would point to it being less a separate entity and more a different side of her personality. This is reinforced when Pyra achieves her ultimate form, where her personality takes on shades of both Pyra and Mythra's personalities.
That all could have been expressed much more elegantly, but I typed it in a hurry to get all my thoughts out there.
@RalizahRex DID accept Pneuma's death though. And if we're going with the angle that he needed to learn that he alone cannot please/protect everyone, it isn't undermined by Pyra and Mythra's resurrection, because that too was completely out of his control. He let them leave, and come back, by their own volition. Also, Pyra and Mythra becoming separate seems to somewhat of a self-parody of the recurring "semi-mechanical girl with hidden split personality" trope that was present in the recent Xeno titles (KOS-MOS and Mary, Fiora and Meyneth). How about instead of the hidden personality being a disembodied super presence, it's an actual other person? They obviously do share traits and interests, as Rex himself notes, but the way they interact with each other (on top of already seeing them separate on several occasions, even if only in spirit) makes it so there's little surprise when they do ultimately separate completely.
I believe the developer was up front in stating the story would focus entirely on Rex's perspective of the people and world around him, so it's only natural that we players only get the bare minimum of necessary info from flashbacks and the like to understand that no one is a mindless villain. This isn't their story. Would it have been nice to see more of them and flesh them out more? Maybe. But chances are it would have bogged down the pace of the story too much.
@Ralizah You can make the argument that the bittersweet tone works out for the end and that's not a wrong way of looking at it. But I think that with the more optimistic tone the game is going for, it wouldn't work as well. If we had a tone like Xenoblade 1 or X then I would probably say that it could be the reverse of what it was currently, but as it stands I think the way it went was fitting. But in terms of the "if she knew she could come back why didn't she skip all the drama" thing, this probably goes beyond what the game explicitly tells us but judging from her previous statements about losing memories and keeping them, I think she knew she could come back, but didn't know if she could remember everything anyway, since Blades don't retain their memories when they reawaken. So perhaps she doesn't want to instill any false hope in some way, but idk.
Agreed about villains, this is where the rushed development comes in. Amalthus has all the points for a great villain but they rushed him out.
Well, it was introduced in Chapter 5, and while it did wane in prominence afterwards, I think they still bring it up in Chapter 9 when Rex and Jin fight for the last time, where Rex corrects Jin on why he thinks Blades exist - to guide humanity.
As for Pyra's intent to die, you could write it like that (and you could argue it was already as is) and I wouldn't have an issue with it.
Why Pyra and Mythra are separate people, your guess are as good as mine. I can't think of any good reasons to think so. But then I look at Ursula and Beary and I just shrug it off. Probably not a satisfactory answer, but hey.
And yeah, because of all that the ending gets a lot of reactions, both good and bad. But it makes it extremely interesting to discuss since there's evidence to point to for both and for going any way
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