All these interesting console designs, reading too deep into patents and wild last minute speculations. Just makes me a tad nostalgic for the year or so before the Switch release when we were all speculating about NX. With people really believing that oval design with the hole cutouts for the analogue sticks based on that one patent. Or all the fun that was had at the expense of Super Metal Dave. Good times
IIRC I was of the view that the "NX" was going to be a HD portable console. I wasn't sure if it would be dual screen or not but I figured it could be, maybe even with backwards compatibility. But it would be portable and HD. I didn't think there would be much value to having HDMI out, I expected it to be a tad under the Wii U. What I thought would happen is that maybe 2018 we'd get a second home console device with the same architecture but with a higher power budget, more RAM, storage etc
Basically, I underestimated how good mobile hardware had become and I didn't consider the possibility of underclocking the CPU while in a portable mode, having a clean docking mechanism built around USB Type C or the JoyCon. All seem obvious in hindsight I guess. But still, I thought it was fairly easy to read the broad direction they were going to go. Release a powerful portable console and then consolidate their software development around that new architecture going forward
People are kinda pushing a similar sort of story now I feel. I don't think the SMD argument really exists anymore except as a strawman but the "they must be wacky and look at this patent" bit certainly runs deep. But I think, again, there's pretty obvious sensible path right down the middle that Nintendo are just going to naturally land on. The same question they always try to answer. They'll release the hardware that reduces the effort required to develop the games they want to make
Which I feel just means Switch again but with a better SoC and more RAM. I don't think the form of the Switch gets in the way of its function. I don't think a different form would open up entirely new possibilities in terms of games. But better hardware would. And you can certainly get better hardware.
To put it another way, the Switch sells for $330-540AU. For $280AU you can buy an entry level Samsung phone off-contract with a 6.5", 90Hz, 720p LCD that has 128GB of storage, the same amount of RAM and a CPU that's about 20% faster in benchmarks. And that's a device that's entirely passively cooled with a battery that's ~20% larger. Cheaper but still manages to outclass the Switch hardware in every aspect. Hell, you can get portable gaming devices for less than half the price of the Switch Lite that can emulate upto the lower end of DreamCast these days. I think it's fair to say there's a fair bit of headroom for an improved spec
I'll put it this way. I'm a bit of a tech enthusiast, I'm the sort of person who in my spare time will write fun little programs/automations or will browse catalogues of consumer electronics stuffs. Or, lets be honest, come to sites like this and talk crap. But in spite of that I do hold one firm fundamental belief about technology. Technology is a tool, it's a means to an end. If the goal isn't clear or if the solution adds additional work to the task? You've made an error. You've made both of these fundamental errors in your design. You're the guy in the meeting struggling to get their stylus to connect to their tablet device, I have pen and paper
All this reads as is; I'm an enthusiast and therefore an expert and don't need to actually explain why your design is bad, it's bad simply because I don't like it / doesn't cater for what I want in a successor system.
Good or bad there's many things my design solves for - have a look back at my original images, each one solves one or more potential problem (bar perhaps the different controller configurations which is more of a nice to have than an issue).
Also lol at you claiming to be a tech enthusiast and then saying you have the upper hand because you have a pen and paper
Do me a favour. Since you're such a expert and your design is so much better than mine, please mock it up and post it to this thread. There's no way we can A-B test this thing if you've only described your design and haven't fundamentally worked out how it would work in reality.
@KingdomTears
To be honest I think you're taking this a bit too personally. Also you've completely misread the part of my post you quoted. What I was saying is that I'm a person who's really into gadgets, tech and all of that kind of thing. It's literally my profession and most of my hobbies. But in spite of this fact about me I have a firm belief that tech is a tool. Doesn't matter how novel or interesting the thing is, if there isn't a goal that the thing assists in achieving? You're wasting your time
There's a famous urban legend around design along these lines. The legend goes that in the 60s NASA developed a pen that would work in space. Because in zero gravity or in extremes of temperatures a standard ballpoint pen fails. Millions of dollars and several years later they had a pressurised ink cartridge that could work in space. The Soviets used pencils. Of course, that's not quite true. There are reasons you don't want to use pencils in space (floating carbon & electronics, joy) and after the pen was developed the Soviets started using them also. But it's a good illustration regardless
So yeah, that's what I disagree with you about. I think your design fails in two points. It doesn't really explain what problem it is trying to resolve. Worse I feel it adds unnecessary complexity to the design which would only get in the way
In terms of what my mockup is? Well.... if we're going with the full dual screen thing. This is it in single user, single screen mode:
this is it docked using the second screen:
And now imagine the single user, single screen version of that but with the screen of the docked second screen version of it jammed onto the top. That's the dual screen version of it
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An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions
@skywake what's to take personally? I'm more than willing to accept my mock-up will have design flaws; anyone who's ever worked in product would know that no first draft is flawless - it takes multiple iterations and working with a team of designers to perfect any product, so I'm under no illusion that my first-draft idea couldn't have some fundamental issues. The job of a product manager / designer would be to work through these issues to get to an optimal solution. You could see this conversation as myself conducting a user interview with you to better understand a user's needs and to tweak designs where appropriate - which I have been attempting to do.
I'm also not sure if you were attempting to gaslight me with some kind of "you're emotional, so not thinking straight" schtick, but please don't do that.
One of the genius aspects of the modular design of the original Switch is that it allowed users to use the system in three distinct modes: Firstly, TV mode, where you dock the console and slide the joy-cons into a grip for use as a controller (itself an imperfect solution, which many solved for through an extra bit of hardware: the pro controller). Then you had handheld mode (the most fully realised version of the modes), and finally, Table-Top mode. This final mode allowed Nintendo to provide a way to play the system on the go but with two-players. This is a compelling offering but not without several design flaws; firstly using a single joycon as an individual controller is uncomfortable and not suitable for prolonged play, and secondly beacuse the screen needs to be shared between the players, the system has to be placed on a flat, steady surface which creates multiple barriers to achieving the aim of this mode.
What's interesting about the dual screen patent when compared to this final mode is that it solves the two main problems I described above. In two player mode each player would have their own screen so they can be held in the hands removing the need to be placed onto a flat surface, and as each unit could have its own controller inputs rather than relying on a sideways joy-con the whole setup would be much more comfortable in general. The design you've proposed does nothing to solve for this problem and would require you to carry around extra parts such as an additional screen and what looks like a full sized controller. This is far from the more simplistic offering you're claiming it to be.
Ultimately however, the reason we can't come to an agreement here is our position on the console needing a unique way to enjoy games. You say that I have not made it clear what problem my design is solving, but this is not the case - the issue is that we fundamentally disagree about the problem that I am claiming this helps to solve.
I think it would be rad if they did re-introduce the dual screen with Switch 2. Foldable things are coming back in style, and Nintendo certainly hit a few road bumps this gen with porting some stuff from the DS/3DS line.
Nintendo also clearly rocked at designing unique games for the DS line, and many 3rd-party games were awesome, too.
But then you're pigeon-holing people into playing it in portable mode, which I don't know if they want to do. But they did come out with the Switch Lite...
I don't know. I think it's just gonna be a more powerful Switch with OLED-esque "quality of life" improvement like the bigger kickstand, wired ethernet, etc.
@skywake I miss those days too. I got caught up in the hype that it was going to be a mighty powerful machine matching the PS4 or something and really didn’t want to hear the notion of a hybrid console which would be less powerful. This time I’m just expecting the Switch 2 to be a more powerful machine than the current system, with near identical looks.
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@KingdomTears
Two things. Firstly even if you think two screens is something that needs to come back I don't think the two player tabletop mode is so critical that you need to add that degree of complexity to improve it. It's the "let's have a cheeky little round of smash on the plane" mode. It's by definition compromised, even in your design one player lacks triggers and both loose one stick. The sideways JoyCon and kickstand is fine
Secondly, you claim to be trying to workshop your idea but you still haven't taken in my criticism. You're doubling down. In my first response I said your design was far too mechanically complex with 10 individual components. Your suggestion as a solution was to add springs and plastic..... which increased the complexity even further
My suggestion for your concept was simply to scrap the stick/button modularity. Instead just keep the modularity at the half-controller level. If you want two players you'd either go tabletop, like the current Switch, or pull out a second controller. My suggestion is litterally identical to yours in every other aspect. The criticisms you're leveling at it are valid, but they also apply to yours
@Grumblevolcano I think you're mostly on the mark here, except I think they're going to do a February Direct focused on Switch 1, then reveal Switch 2 in April/May for a September/October launch.
That was my thought but what's happened more recently gives me the impression of an earlier reveal of Switch 2. I get the feeling it's this:
Mid January - Princess Peach Showtime Direct (while Nintendo Live 2024 is cancelled, the game was going to playable there so I figure a Direct will show off the game before when Nintendo Live 2024 was going to be)
Late January/Early February - General Direct which reveals Switch 2 where the structure is something like 1st half being Switch 1, 2nd half being Switch 2 reveal + Switch 2 only 3rd party games + end with something like 3D Mario
Late February - Pokemon Direct for Pokemon Day reveals something like Gen 5 remakes for the current Switch, Gen 5 Legends game for Switch 2 and a Switch 2 patch for Scarlet/Violet alongside the usual mobile game stuff
April - Indie World
May/June - General Direct which reveals more about Switch 2 lineup
Summer 2024 - A setup similar to Early 2017 where there are lots of events to check out the Switch 2 for yourself in person
September 2024 - Switch 2 releases
I do hope I'm wrong though about Switch 2 reveal in late January/early February and it is later with us getting a general Direct dedicated to Switch 1 in that time period instead. The extent to which Nintendo digs deep into their retro catalog as a result of Switch 1 still being the newest Nintendo hardware is extremely exciting.
@NeonPizza
RE: the sensor bar. 100% agreement that the WiiMote was a better WiiMote than the JoyCon is and the sensor bar is a large part of that. Although I'm not sure how you'd achieve that within the size constraints the JoyCon has to meet being something with triggers that you attach to the screen. There's just not the room for it and even if there was a lot of what made the WiiMote feel good was the weight and balance
Honestly I think they should just do what they did for GC/N64/SNES/NES. Just re-release the WiiMote and ideally add compatibility for the original. Do it as a part of adding Wii/GC to NSO when that inevitably happens. Honestly they probably should have done it as part of Switch Sports
While we're on the topic of controller design. Analogue triggers. Why is the last controller Nintendo had with them the original Wii CC? I know there was a legal dispute at some point but surely by now they can work it out. Everyone else has them and it feels especially stupid for Nintendo not to have it given their best selling game is Mario Kart
Two things. Firstly even if you think two screens is something that needs to come back I don't think the two player tabletop mode is so critical that you need to add that degree of complexity to improve it. It's the "let's have a cheeky little round of smash on the plane" mode.
You may be right here, but there's a possibility you under estimate how much stock Nintendo have put into this mode. After all, it is the sole reason for designing the joy-cons so they can be used separately as individual controllers, and the reason that the system has a kick-stand at the back. Nintendo clearly spend time and effort working out this mode and even went so far as to improve it by adding a bigger more robust kick-stand to later models. All I'm saying is; don't so easily dismiss that Nintendo might want to improve this mode to get more people playing Switch outside of their own homes more often.
It's by definition compromised, even in your design one player lacks triggers and both loose one stick. The sideways JoyCon and kickstand is fine
I don't know where you got this from? My design could easily have triggers on the top - infact the original patent even has that, I just didn't create a separate image to show this as I thought it would be a fairly obvious inclusion. And where is the stick lost? In single player it's a twin-stick setup for left and right hands, in two player you divide these two sticks between the two units. If you can't grasp this then I see why you're having trouble understanding what benefits the more modular design would provide.
Secondly, you claim to be trying to workshop your idea but you still haven't taken in my criticism. You're doubling down. In my first response I said your design was far too mechanically complex with 10 individual components. Your suggestion as a solution was to add springs and plastic..... which increased the complexity even further
Apologies, I must have lost the ability to read between the lines. You said:
Despite the fact that my only suggestion is that if they were to do it, and I'm far from convinced of the value, that it would need to be LESS complicated than your original suggestion. Note, your original suggestion had ten individual components. Four "dummy modules", one top screen, one bottom screen and then four controller modules
And then when I suggested the alternative you said:
Yeah, nah. I don't accept your premise there. I'm not suggesting a solution to same problem, what I'm saying is that I don't think this is a reasonable route to go. It seems to me like a solution in search of a problem. Also, reasonable or not, I think your approach to the solution is far too complex
So I'm not sure where I was supposed to get the feedback that you thought it was still mechanically complex based on the springs, since you never properly mentioned this until now. In which case, sure; throw out the springs altogether and just have gaps in places where modules aren't placed. It's not as pretty but would do the same job.
My suggestion for your concept was simply to scrap the stick/button modularity. Instead just keep the modularity at the half-controller level. If you want two players you'd either go tabletop, like the current Switch, or pull out a second controller. My suggestion is litterally identical to yours in every other aspect. The criticisms you're leveling at it are valid, but they also apply to yours
Yeah, I've been making this point from about four posts back:
To that end we appear to be working towards a common goal now with both of us proposing a separate routes to essentially achieving the same outcome.
Anyway as mentioned in my last comment, we're never going to agree on this since we disagree on the very principle that the purpose of the entire design hinges: to provide novel gameplay experiences. You believe the next system will not provide this, I believe that Nintendo will continue to innovate following literally 20+ years of constant innovation for every single console they have released during this timespan. So, can we please stop this conversation now? It's quite frankly exhausting talking to you like this and I'm travelling for work this week (I'm literally in the airport rn) so I have little time for conversations that continue to go around in circles with no end goal other than one-upmanship.
Thanks mate, merry Christmas.
I hear a lot about “Nintendo Needs Digital Triggers!” …but I don’t really see why. Im sure if I played XBox/PS games I would feel differently, but I truly don’t get the demand. Admittedly, I play things such as Splatoon, TotK, Mario Maker, etc. which don’t require adjustments to the use of the trigger, but I personally dislike racing games that use triggers for steering, so even games such as MarioKart are fine imo. Plus, when I do play PS5 at my friend’s house, I find having to press the L and R buttons just so is quite annoying! Maybe that is just me being a curmudgeonly old casual gamer though!
@NeonPizza
Woof - I quite liked the Switch lol, but to each their own I suppose.
I've just always been a fan of handhelds, and the DS folding and dual screens was always so much fun with the games they came up with; truly some of the most unique gaming experiences I've ever had.
I have a friend who has a Quest (not sure what model), and I played some stuff on it. It was... certainly different. 3D gaming isn't really at the point where, for me, it's something I would want to do. There are some games I suppose you can put the headset on and sit back on the couch, but for the most part you need to be up and very alert, whereas I typically like to sit back and chill if I'm gonna play my Switch.
..... not going to engage with that whole post. Especially with what's clearly a passive aggressive "mate" at the end there. But I figured I'd touch on this bit here:
You may be right here, but there's a possibility you under estimate how much stock Nintendo have put into this mode. After all, it is the sole reason for designing the joy-cons so they can be used separately as individual controllers, and the reason that the system has a kick-stand at the back.
I think this is quite a stretch. I'd argue that the tabletop mode is an incidental side-effect of the larger design. The SL/SR buttons and the split d-pad assist with that use case but I think it's clear this wasn't a core part of the design. And yes, they improved the stand in the OLED model but mostly because the original stand was clearly an afterthought
I'd argue that the core part of the JoyCon design is that without buying an additional controller you can play on TV and in portable mode. That you can be on your couch playing Zelda, stand up with your controller, slide the JoyCon onto the sides, (click), pick up the Switch and continue playing. All in one motion without having to pick up or put anything down. It's so core to the design that it's part of their branding. The JoyCon have to split for that to work, that's why the JoyCon split
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason to change the design in any way that would make that experience more complicated. The Switch is only as modular as it needs to be to exist as a hybrid console. No more. Nintendo is very good at design and out of all of the gaming hardware companies they probably lean into minimalism the most. So if there was to be a second screen I feel that it'd be just a second screen. No more.
I feel that fundamentally your design misses the mark by not seeing this. It's far too modular, far too complex. I'm not going to sugar coat it, it's just a straight up bad design for that reason. The second I saw the images in that post I thought "I get it, I know the train of thought" but at the very same time I could smell the future ten year olds spamming this forum with posts about how they lost their left stick or damage the connector. First rule of good design: Do less, minimise points of failure
@CaleBoi25
If you're not into racing games then fair enough I guess. But if you are it's pretty important to be able to control the throttle, especially in more sim-y racers. It's kinda like going from a d-pad to an analogue stick, it's just a higher level of control. And in any case, controllers have the shoulder buttons AND the triggers so there's space there already for them to have slightly different functions
I was going to say at the very least least their Pro Controller should have them but thinking about it it's almost the reverse. They should have it in portable mode. For the people who care about analogue sticks for racing games? Analogue sticks on the TV is nice but, if you care that much that you're vocal about it you probably already have a proper setup with a wheel and pedals. But the thing about a full sim setup, it's not portable. Portables are portable. So if anything they need the analogue triggers in portable mode
@Anti-Matter yeah I guess it's not impossible that the design I posited could contain a 3DS chip in the "screen" part of the device with a dedicated cartridge slot. Would be cool to offer cartridge-based backwards compatibility for the Switch, 3DS and possibly DS also.
VR, Dual Screens, modular controllers, 3DS compatibility. You know, I think some people are going to be very disappointed when this thing comes out. And I don't think it'll be the people who are talking about GFLOPs, GBs and DLSS.....
Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions
@NeonPizza Just focusing on the end of you comment, I honestly adore gyro aiming! I play a lot of Splatoon, and quite honestly I play handheld exclusively, because it allows my to move the screen as though it were a camera. TV mode feels odd without that, so I guess we are a bit different in that regard!
@Magician
I think we can be very confident it uses LPDDR5. All of the Ampere based Tegra SOCs use it and of all the things we can guess about "Switch 2" the SoC is the one thing we know
Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
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Topic: What do you think the next Nintendo console will look like?
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