Topic: The Nintendo Switch Rumor and Speculation Thread

@skywake that was a dump. I'm starting to get the real picture here and why you make completely made up litmus tests though, and its dissappointing.

>Really there isn't much value in continuing this discussion when people are tying themselves into knots to disagree like this. Clearly Switch 2 will be closer to the PS5 than the PS4 is to the PS5. It's going to land above the PS4 (docked) in most aspects and that's how numbers work. If S2 > PS4 and PS5 > S2 then (PS5-PS4) < (PS5-S2). But any honest reading of what I said would not have responded like this because that's very clearly not and never was what I meant.

What even is this. You're mad that you were forced to agree with me? Then why beat that silly drum?

>An honest response would have actually responded to what I said though. That the Switch 2 will be closer to the PS4 in actual real world use, including portable mode, than it (Switch 2) is to the PS5 in actual real world use.

I've stated multiple times and even shown complete visuals over and over and over again:

Ps4: 1.8 Tflops
Switch 2: 3.072 Tflops
Ps5: 10 Tflops

What are you talking about?

Why are you yapping about made up arguments from imaginary people whenever you respond to my posts instead of what's in my posts?

The problem you are having is that does not mean the switch 2 will be a gcn generation equivalent machine like a ps4 like you keep trying to claim Not even close. Thats like saying the gtx 980ti and the rtx 2080 were the same generation machines. It's just wrong. You don't round down to the lowest denominator and throw away everything else, that's ridiculous. There were something like four fricking gpu generations between ps4 and 5, what is wrong with you?

>Not shader counts.

I'm sorry to break it to you but this is literally a massive part of where performance comes from. And trust me you REALLY want to stick with this and stay as far away from real world as possible because it only gets worse and worse and worse for the ps4 when you involve things like real world shader occupancy, cpu bottlenecking, opmem cache, Warps in flight scheduling etc. You think hiding in real world performance because we don't have a switch 2 to test yet will help you, but it really wont because ampere is a very well known quantity and gpu scaling is easy. Remember how gtav on ps4 got its brakes beat off by 200+% by a budget bargain bin laptop? Yeahhhh..... it did that with only 4GB of vram.

>not AI acceleration in isolation.

They were never shown in isolation.

>actual real world use running actual games. i.e. I'm contending that yes, S2 > PS4, especially docked, however in actual use (S2-PS4) < (PS5-S2).

What Is this even trying to say lol.

Lets do some maths. How many times does 1.8 go into 3? 1.67 times. How many times does 3 go into 10? 3.33 times. Is 1.67 bigger or smaller than 3.33? It's not hard

This is a forum for discussing gaming consoles. When people talk about generations they're referring to console generations. You know this, it's not exactly a hard thing to miss. So I can only assume that you are being deliberately obtuse

So ok, lets all step back for a second and recap. Full transparency, with graphs. My original point was basically this, using numbers as provided by @Fullstack here. Red highlighted area goes from half of the 3TFLOPS @Fullstack guestimates, based on how hard they underclocked the OG Switch for portable mode. The top of the red area is the full 3TFLOPS

The yellow section is the same area but 2X, to account for a potential perceived jump in real world performance that some titles may be able to achieve through things like DLSS. This I believe is a tad optimistic but lets humour @Fullstack and give the full 2X

My argument, from the start, is that given we're living comfortably in that red area this is going to be more generally a PS4-like console experience. i.e. for the purposes of this forum, where we talk in the language of console hardware, if you were to describe this hardware in a single throw away bullet point? You might well say that this is going to be a portable console with power similar to the PS4 and Steam Deck. We will not be hitting PS5 tier performance here, we will be comfortably doing PS4 tier performance

The argument from @Fullstack is that I am wrong because these three things are not identical

And my issue with @Fullstack is that presenting it like this, especially as a rebuttal to my argument about broad bands of performance, is INCREDIBLY misleading

Sorry for that one, I realised after I posted it but before you had finished with your wall of text that difference isn't the best way to go. Because we care about ratios a linear comparison would, as you would be well aware, makes this comparison less flattering for your argument than it needed to be. As 3-1.8 vs 10-3 looks far worse for you than the more reasonable comparison that considers the ratio and compares 3/1.8 vs 10/3

I amended my post to correct this and explained further what that calculation was in the post above

@Fullstack I hestitate to insert myself here, but I've read through this entire thread and you seem really, really angry for some reason and to be taking offense for arbitrary reasons. And it just seems so bizarre to be arguing about any of this stuff when the "Switch 2" hasn't even been announced yet, so we only have hypotheticals to go on. Also, I think you and @skywake are discussing different things. To most people, none of this data will even matter. What will matter is what games it gets and how "pretty" they look.

Anyway, I think this thread was meant to be fun discussion. Surely there's no need for anyone to get upset? We might get some kind of Direct this week, here's hoping! What third party games are people hoping come to "Switch 2"? When does everyone think it will be announced? I've heard some people say March, so we could be just weeks away! Kind of exciting. I just kind of hope they bring back Streetpass or some equivalent and maybe the Mii Plaza and Mii Plaza games. Streetpass is one of my favorite features ever, and I really miss it! What are some features others are interested in? Have a blessed week, everyone!

@FishyS well if digital and physical purchases are a thing, it would make sense to transfer ALL the data saved. I don’t remember a console that didn’t transfer save data along with the actual game

@skywake >Lets do some maths. How many times does 1.8 go into 3? 1.67 times. How many times does 3 go into 10? 3.33 times. Is 1.67 bigger or smaller than 3.33? It's not hard

Duh. No, it's not hard, so why, every single time I post this very straight forward Information in response to your massive "Lie show for the lurkers" do you lie lie and make up stories about what I have said? And for a completely made up and pointless.... you cant even call it a metric, it's just blithering nonsense.

*****I am the one who has been posting those accurate numbers not you****

So please explain how you turned those numbers into your lie 'show for lurkers' about me saying the switch 2 is really close to the ps5? You can't, because it's a lie.

>This is a forum for discussing gaming consoles. When people talk about generations they're referring to console generations.

This might mean something if game consoles had their own completely discrete line of cpu's and gpu's instead of LITERALLY taking them from the same place as everywhere else.

This is a complete and absolute gish gallop based on a fake made up premise with the sole intent to obsfucate and misinform.

>And my issue with @Fullstack is that presenting it like this, especially as a rebuttal to my argument about broad bands of performance, is INCREDIBLY misleading

This is complete purposefully misleading nonsense.

Go on actually explain HOW those metrics are misleading. I dont think you can.

Or better yet, explain to people WHY you keep trying to use a ps360 Era game to lie with, explain what happens to that blue bar, or your ps4's place in the "red zone" when modern graphics from current games are used. Let's say ray tracing, which is rapidly becoming a minimum requirement. What happens to the ps4's blue bar, because it doesn't have a green ray trace bar? Oh it plummets to nothing. Not ps5, when it's hardware raytrace from its tmu's run out it has plenty of general purpose shaders (blue bar) and a more than powerful enough cpu to cover the slack.

What happens when your game has tons and tons of scripts and simulations to run that require high throughput compute but don't require full fp32 precision? Switch 2 and ps5 have that whole orange bar to use. Ps4 has to fall back to its tiny blue bar or pathetic cpu and waste its fp32/int32 precision until that blue bar is gone, the cpu is completely bottlenecked, and only a tiny fraction of the needed compute throughput done.

What about mesh shaders or primitive shaders? What happens, because ps4 doesn't have them, when the switch 2 is processing entire meshes in one call, and ps4 still has to issue one single vertex at a time through the primitive pipeline?

It yet again plummets to nothing because it's a very old very outdated architecture.

The reason it's important not to HIDE those very important modern performance metrics like you keep trying to do, is they are the performance that makes sure your blue bar Actually performs as close to its peak as possible.

Without them you dont actually GET that blue bar, because it's what has to try and cover the missing performance from the other metrics. Your blue bar and red zone for the ps4? They go bye bye. HARD

Ps5 has enough sheer shader cores clocked high enough, and a cpu powerful enough to spend 2 or 3 tflops covering ray trace after the tmu's are spent and still stay ahead of a a tiny mobile ampere in resolution and performance. It gets curbstomped by an equivalent sized ampere gpu, but thats not what the ga10f is. It's a smaller gpu than the ps5. But it's 3x larger than the steam deck. Exactly.

Ps4 does not. And it's not even close.

Stop misinforming people. Especially while championing yourself as the exact opposite with horrendously bad faith arguments.

I'll second @Hyrule_Rainclouds that perhaps this argument should pause until the Switch 2 is actually announced and some more details are verified? Although the ongoing technical discussion has been interesting, it seems to be circling the drain a bit at this point. And there will likely be more things to speculate on after this week's direct does or doesn't happen.

I think my previous post, which litterally used the same figures being thrown my way, explained what I meant fairly well. As @Hyrule_Rainclouds said, nobody cares about the raw numbers. They don't really matter. What matters is what games it will run and how well they'll run. The only way to see that is to actually see games running on the hardware which, at this stage, we cannot do. So we need a point of comparison

Given the level of power we can expect and given this will be hardware that needs to be portable? While not perfect by any means PS4 and Steam Deck are probably the most well understood analogues for performance we have

This is litterally my one and only point that I've been trying to get across for these last pages. It has been clear for a while now that I'm talking into a void here so.... let's leave it there

I'm bothy so impressed and confused by that some people (here and out there) still flexes their novice armchair expertise (99.9% of them has zero experience with actual programming) day after day for years now. Why is the specs a such HUGE deal for many people?
Why not just play games? Instead of staring on some numbers and measuring with each others *******?

It's always the games which counts for Nintendo in the end.
This has been a thing since 2018 that "Switch 2" aka "Switch Pro" were gonna coming on 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and now on 2024 according all those "leakers", "insiders", "analysts", "armchair experts" etc...

It's extremely seldom that the most powerful console of the generation prevails on the end.

NES were weaker than Master System
SNES were massively inferior to Neo*Geo (outside CD-based consoles)
PSX were considerably weaker than N64
PS2 were dwarfed by Gamecube and completely outclassed by Xbox
Wii was, was, w-was.. pa-pathetically laughable compared with PS3+X360
etc
etc
etc

This also applies for handhelds too.

If the specs were the only thing which mattered so Switch never had been sold more than 30m then. It's just games which counts for Nintendo's consoles.
Art style > "ultra" realistic graphics flavor of the day, forever!

I suspect a lot more of us who hang out here are in STEM fields than you think. Though I doubt many actually work in video games. So it is just enough partially relevant professional expertise to be dangerous. 😝

I very much agree Art style > ultra realistic graphics and I look forward to what Nintendo is able to do art wise in games like Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing with a more powerful console. And yeah, Nintendo isn't trying to be the most powerful console even with the presumed Switch 2, it's just trying to be able to make modern games in Nintendo's own unique very polished style while also allowing ports of other popular games. The exact specs definitely don't really matter unless you're interested in that sort of thing.

As for being tired of hearing about Switch pro/2 rumours, you will likely finally get to hear the end of it later this year. 😀 At least for a year or two until people start speculating about Switch 3. 😆

@Keman
One of my earliest interactions with this forum back in the day, and the main reason I drifted from the front page, was so I could join in on speculation about "Wii HD" and "DS 2". So threads such as this are just where I tend to live on this forum. And with rare exceptions it's generally a fun exercise.... the last few pages clearly being one of those exceptions and a clear example of why I think a lot of people choose not to engage

But yeah, it is about the games ultimately. And in particular, and especially for me, it's just a general excitement about what this new hardware will open up. Both in terms of what Nintendo will be able to do with [insert agreeable level of power here] but also what [insert agreeable level of power here] will mean for gaming on a portable device

Steam Deck and those portable gaming PCs are pretty cool for portable as they are. Imagine how much more we will be able to get when we have developers building and optimising for a very specific piece of hardware! The specs themselves are not very interesting. It's what they'll open up that's interesting. And you can't have one without the other

I think the technical discussions are interesting, but I feel this thread was meant to be fun, lighthearted discussion, not something worth getting all worked up about. Anyway, that's how I feel.

I'm more curious to see what extra features the "Switch 2" has. I started console gaming in 1980 with the Atari 2600. It's been fun experiencing the evolution of video game consoles and video games over the years, and it will be cool to see what Nintendo comes up with for the "Switch 2" as well. I look forward to reading more analysis about the specs once it's actually announced and we hear what those specs are. But I'm more curious to see what extra features there are and of course what games it gets. And I agree with @skywake, it will be fun to see what developers come up with developing for this very specific set of hardware. Some of my favorite games were developed a certain way for the system/console they were on, like The World Ends With You battle system using the dual screens on Nintendo DS or The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and the motion controls on Wii. And I agree with what @Keman and @FishyS said, a good art style is more important to me than ultra-realistic graphics. I mean, I still play old 8-bit and 16-bit games, etc., doesn't matter to me so much what a game looks like as long as it's fun!

I've heard rumors "Switch 2" might come with a camera, maybe for AR? I really liked the AR cards for 3DS. I hope it comes with a microphone, maybe one in the controllers/joy-cons and one in the system itself? I'm guessing it will still have a touchscreen, but does anyone think it will have a stylus? Like I said above, I really loved Streetpass and wish it would come back somehow. What games do you think they'll show off during the reveal? Maybe some third-party games? One thing I really wish is that they'd move the charge port to the top or at least add one at the top. I almost always play in handheld mode with the Switch and like keeping it plugged in, but it's hard to do with the power cord plugged into the bottom. Oh well.

@Hyrule_Rainclouds
I remember when the "Switch Pro" speculation was at it's peak posting on the cesspool that is Reddit that I hoped they'd bring back the camera. I think it makes a lot of sense given the low cost of cameras and the potential to open up gameplay opportunities. But I was comprehensively burried for that opinion. I'm not sure we'll get it but I'm well and truly down for it if it does happen

But I'm also pretty happy if we get "just" a portable console where once it lands we see less reviews where "good performance" doesn't always have an asterisk next to it.....

@Hyrule_Rainclouds Some Switch games already work with a stylus (for example Mario Maker 2) — personally I got one with the Switch travel case I bought; they just cost a couple bucks as a cheap accessory. However, I don't think they will default attach a stylus because it doesn't make a ton of sense when half the players are playing docked and they have therefore de-emphasized touch screen. At best a stylus might come as an unattached accessory in the box unless they actually have an accessory with a second screen. Switch has so many ways to play right now including stylus which aren't actually used in very many games.

Kind of agree the power cord can be in an annoying place, but they didn't move it for lite and depending on how you hold it it can be a bit annoying anywhere.

I hope Nintendo doesn’t go down the ‘ultra realistic graphics’ route, I doubt they will but I personally think they should prioritise performance over graphics. For example, totk looked fine but the slow loading times and 30
FPS were holding it back slightly.
I have no knowledge about this stuff and I am not sure if performance and graphics come hand in hand but if I was in charge of Nintendo that’s what I would do.

Nate the Hate trending through games media again since he talked about NG Switch backwards compatibility currently being in the test phase.

So the running theory, which is what I expect to happen, is it'll be a PS4-->>PS5 style transition where games will run up to their max settings as programmed (so if no locked frame rate and it ran at like 40 fps on a usually 60 fps game, it'll run 60 on Switch 2. And if supposed to be at 900p but ran often at 720p due to Switch's power, it'll be 900p on Switch 2). But that's really it automatically - to actually change the upper bounds to allow for higher frame rates or resolution, or even a rework with additional content, that would require a dedicated update.

Some devs may bother with the effort, some may not. I would expect Nintendo to with many of their games; perhaps an update to let BotW run at 1440p with significantly reduced loading times for example, as well as updates that are more significant but maybe charge an extra $10-20 for (like making a ToTK Switch 2-only expansion pack at 1440p with optional 1080p 60 fps mode and additional dungeons or challenge modes)

@Ulysses
That's generally how I've been saying it'll play out for a while now. Some system level support for backwards compatibility running games as is and then additionally support for developers to code (and patch) their games to detect Switch vs Switch 2 hardware and alter behaviour accordingly

@FishyS Nothing has changed since Feb 2022 when Nvidia was hit by a ransom attack that dumped a TB of data onto the public, where the switch 2's in progress graphics api was found. Nothing is going to change because of a direct.

Nvidia has confirmed this attack in court.

https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2022/03/nvidia-the-ran...

Also stolen was Nvidias internal road map.
There is nothing else.

And it's been continued to be worked on since by Nvidia employees all the way up to the end if last year, who posted their commits publicly. Including adding the t239 bpmp call to the Linux device tree.

That's the Boot Power Management Processor.

Which means actual silicon has been taped out and tested.

This is it. There is nothing else, and howling about how hardware doesn't matter while being completely incapable of refuting any hardware facts is not an equivalent or legitimate argument.

We haven't even gotten to how a gcn pt tflop is only a fraction of an rdna or ampere real world tflop.

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2019-teraflop-face-o...

That real world benched Navi tflop is 88% more potent than the GCN2 Tflop from the ps4, because gcn cant get as close to its peak theoretical in realworld performance.. And that's RDNA 1 with no infinity cache, which ampere still beats out. Gee, what was that number that 30 watt bargain bin laptop ampere beat the ps4, the 120 watt ps4 by, (with higher settings) with full pc overhead, oh, it was over 200%, surely that must be a coincidence because "raw numbers" don't mean anything.

See those raw numbers, that we are being told dont matter, they're what determine real world performance when you go to the benches.

Then theres the fact also brought up in that analysis that ampere and rdna geometry processing is over 7x greater than gcn.

The GTX titan released the same years as the ps4, and crushed it like it was a joke. It has a higher peak theoretical than the series s, but is basically incapable of playing almost any modern game in the series s library.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/nvidias-origi...

Oh there is a LOT to talk about, because there is a LOT of misinformation being spread as 'common knowledge', the issue is, one person is doing everything possible to obscure, deflect and freeze any discussion from moving forward with circular bad faith arguments that hold absolutely no water.

While Hyrule_Rainclouds of course should be commended for attempting to pacify the thread, I'd just like to credit and applaud Skywake and Fullstack for their appetite to thrash this conversation out.

It seems so rare nowadays to get to witness a proper discourse slugfest without someone grabbing their ball and going home early or a Mod stepping in to shut it down.

No-one is getting hurt by this debate, and no-one is obliged to read it all, but just getting to witness two esteemed users lock horns for page after page is wonderful entertainment, so I say, "Seconds out, let the next round commence, and may whoever gets the last word win".