Forums

Topic: Metroid Prime 1 Remastered

Posts 421 to 433 of 433

F-ZeroX

Great explanation and summary of the game:

Was enlightening and interesting for me to watch, even after having played through it more than once.

F-ZeroX

Shroudednightmare

played it and its one of my all time fav metroid games for sure

Shroudednightmare

Ganner

I actually owned this back in the GC era but due to various circumstances I never got around to playing it. Had intentions of getting to it during the Wii era but again circumstances got in the way. Finally, after all these years I get my chance with the Remastered release and OH. MY. GOD. What an experience. What a game. Again, what the Switch is providing me for my gaming side of life (what little I have left as I age out) is close to being the undisputed champion of a console I've ever owned. If I die tomorrow, bury me with my Switch!

This fire is burning and it's out of control. It's not a problem you can stop it's Rock and Roll!!!

Bolt_Strike

I don't get the obsession with this remake. Like yeah, Metroid Prime is great, and the improved graphics look great, but I'm not getting the "this is an amazing remake" vibe, it feels like your garden variety remake with slightly better graphics and almost no other improvements. It really felt like Metroid Prime needed something more like the Zero Mission/Samus Returns treatment (perhaps not that extreme because Prime's design is nowhere near as archaic as the likes of Metroid and Metroid II, but something more comparable to that with new areas/rooms and new powerups that weren't in the original) and all they really did was touch up the graphics and repackage it. And this is supposedly the "ambitious" remake and the rumored Prime 2 and 3 remasters are even worse? So what, are they literally just copy/pasting the original GC/Wii code onto a Switch cartridge or something? I really can't imagine them looking worse than this and still looking different from the GC/Wii originals.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

StuTwo

@Bolt_Strike maybe the original doesn’t look quite as good as you remember - especially when blown up onto a screen 3-4 times the size and much sharper. The remaster does a lot graphically but it’s generally subtle.

Gameplay wise I’d argue that it didn’t need anything changing (an auto save maybe).

I’d expect the other 2 to be more like the recent Pikmin releases - sharper textures but not much else. If so they’ll look very good because the underlying assets are good but they won’t pass for a native Switch game like this one can.

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

Bolt_Strike

StuTwo wrote:

@Bolt_Strike maybe the original doesn’t look quite as good as you remember - especially when blown up onto a screen 3-4 times the size and much sharper. The remaster does a lot graphically but it’s generally subtle.

I mean I can tell the difference... barely, but "subtle" is not how an "ambitious" remake should look. The difference should be night and day.

StuTwo wrote:

Gameplay wise I’d argue that it didn’t need anything changing (an auto save maybe).

Auto save doesn't really make much sense for a Metroid because your ability to navigate the rooms safely is part of the challenge. It makes sense to limit saves to designated rest areas and challenge you to survive the trek in between.

The main improvement I think Prime needs is just more upgrades/abilities and new rooms that contain them. Some of the areas in the game aren't particularly well designed and could use major improvements. Magmoor Caverns is the biggest offender, you mainly only visit it to go to and from Phendrana Drifts and there's little to do there in and of itself, just one mandatory mission and 2 Chozo Artifacts that you could just pick up while you're passing through to Phendrana. There isn't even an a boss there. It just feels like pointless padding and the area could stand to be fleshed out.

Phazon Mines is another one, the area is a super linear gauntlet (unfortunately, it seems like Metroid falls into this habit for their penultimate areas where it's a linear gauntlet full of tough enemies to challenge the player, I've noticed similar issues with other Metroid games), and the linearity is unbefitting a Metroidvania. Furthermore, your journey through the Mines basically just boils down to two expeditions, one about halfway through to get the Power Bombs (picking up the Grapple Beam on the way back, which is pretty close to the main path you take to get there) and the other to go all the way to the bottom to get the Phazon Suit. This is not fun to explore, they should have more powerups there that have you go a bit more off the beaten path.

As for which of Samus' abilities they could add? Well they could simply throw in some of the ones from Prime 2 and 3. Seeker Missiles, Screw Attack, and Grapple Lasso would be nice additions to the game, potentially also Grapple Voltage if they need more (although the Grapple Voltage is a largely useless ability but they could throw in a few uses for it). There's also some QoL features from Prime 2 and 3 for some of Samus' existing abilities in the game that were ignored in the game, such as Samus using her free arm instead of her arm cannon for the Grapple Beam allowing her to shoot while grappling or allowing you to use the Boost Ball to boost away from Spider Ball tracks that would've been good improvements to include.

Lastly, I think the game needs a fast travel system. Some of the areas you have to visit are pretty spread out in the game and the backtracking can get pretty tedious as you are forced to trek through dozens of rooms that have nothing new for you to interact with just to get to the area that actually has new content. The biggest offender of this is the backtracking trip to get the Space Jump Boots (which granted is partially so bad because of the aforementioned issues with Magmoor Caverns being a largely pointless connecting area, but still) where you go on a relatively long and grueling trek to Phendrana to get the Boost Ball, then go ALL THE WAY back to Tallon Overworld for the Space Jump Boots, then have to go ALL THE WAY to Phendrana AGAIN to continue with the Wave Beam and the trip through Glacier One (the Phendrana Pirate base). This would all be so much less tedious if you could simply fast travel between Tallon and Phendrana at will. Now this does sort of contradict what I said about the autosave in that the challenge is in navigating the rooms safely, but they can still do that with fast travel by having the fast travel rooms be different from Save Stations and still retain the challenge. Fast travel should probably be a necessity here to make the game less boring and tedious, so that you're mostly only revisiting old areas if they have new content you can interact with when you've collected a new ability.

So basically, Metroid Prime has a lot of filler to it that artificially lengthens the experience and makes it a bit tedious. I wanted to see them trim the fat and add more meat to the game.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

StuTwo

@Bolt_Strike i disagree - I don’t want a remaster to be a “new” game. I want it to be the game I remember. It should look “the same as I remember” - which means it needs to be improved significantly but in line with the original design.

This is exactly what happened with Metroid Prime.

I don’t generally want new power ups that weren’t there before. QoL is one thing (the updated controls offer this) but I don’t want the original design to be broken (the controls kind of do this but I think it’s a fair compromise - in part because it naturally makes the game easier which is more in line with modern sensibilities).

As to Metroidvania design principles more generally - I don’t generally like fast travel since I think it’s usually contrary to the design of a good Metroidvania (although I “get” why people want it and it is sometimes necessary for larger maps). Part of the appeal of the genre is constantly walking through a “boring” space many times and later passing through it in a different way with different skills.

Fast travel robs you of that. It makes a game feel very different.

Auto save - as in “checkpoints” rather than a hard save - don’t fundamentally change the game IMO. You still need to find the save points, you just aren’t as harshly punished for choosing the “wrong” path and accidentally missing a save station (which I personally find happens more often in the Prime games than 2d Metroidvania games).

The odd isolated “corridor” area late game is just part and parcel of the genre too. I don’t think it’s a design flaw - it’s almost baked into the genre. You have near enough the full skill set and you won’t be revisiting many times so those areas start to function like more traditional levels. They usually aren’t as memorable as earlier areas (or dedicated linear action games).

The very late game scavenger hunt is a waste of time to make the game go on longer - I’d agree on that - but it does have some value.

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

rallydefault

I agree on not having fast travel in a game like this. The map is veeeeery close to being a tad too big and needing perhaps a minor form of fast travel, but after playing Remastered (I only ever dabbled in the original), I'm ultimately glad there is no fast travel, even if I did a TON of backtracking. That is what a metroidvania is about, after all, and it adds to the immersion and feeling of accomplishment when you do get stuff done or find the path you were looking for. In general, lack of fast travel reminds me of what games used to be like, and how I still find retro gaming much more rewarding than modern gaming.

I think fast travel ruins a lot of games, though, so I'm pretty biased. BotW and TotK come to mind especially. Being able to fast travel to every shrine, tower, dungeon, etc. trivializes the beautiful world, in my opinion. I think they should have made fast travel only to the towers, but that's a discussion for another thread.

rallydefault

Bolt_Strike

StuTwo wrote:

@Bolt_Strike i disagree - I don’t want a remaster to be a “new” game. I want it to be the game I remember. It should look “the same as I remember” - which means it needs to be improved significantly but in line with the original design.
This is exactly what happened with Metroid Prime.

But you admitted the game's improvements were subtle. If they're subtle, that's not really a "significant" improvement, so why spend $60 on that? It'd be better to just have an NSO version of the original instead of opting for a remake/remaster (for the gamer I mean, Nintendo benefits more from this, but the gamer does not).

I really don't think you can significantly improve a game without improving the original design. The original design is just far too central to the experience and recycling it means you're mainly going to the same places and doing the same things. Not much wiggle room for improvements if you're keeping that the same. Maybe you could add optional content, but that was never Metroid's style so restricting it to the same design basically dooms it to feel like the improvements are insignificant.

StuTwo wrote:

As to Metroidvania design principles more generally - I don’t generally like fast travel since I think it’s usually contrary to the design of a good Metroidvania (although I “get” why people want it and it is sometimes necessary for larger maps). Part of the appeal of the genre is constantly walking through a “boring” space many times and later passing through it in a different way with different skills.

Fast travel robs you of that. It makes a game feel very different.

Combine it with a marking map and you don't have that issue, you can mark an area that you know requires a later upgrade and remember to come back later when you have it. That removes the boring part of Metroidvanias and trims the fat.

StuTwo wrote:

Auto save - as in “checkpoints” rather than a hard save - don’t fundamentally change the game IMO. You still need to find the save points, you just aren’t as harshly punished for choosing the “wrong” path and accidentally missing a save station (which I personally find happens more often in the Prime games than 2d Metroidvania games).

Checkpoints are a specific type of auto save, not another name for them. Some auto saves ARE hard saves.

StuTwo wrote:

The odd isolated “corridor” area late game is just part and parcel of the genre too. I don’t think it’s a design flaw - it’s almost baked into the genre. You have near enough the full skill set and you won’t be revisiting many times so those areas start to function like more traditional levels. They usually aren’t as memorable as earlier areas (or dedicated linear action games).

They don't need to go to that extreme. They can have several powerups located there and have you backtrack to another part of the level when you get a new one, while they make the enemies tough enough to provide a challenge (while keeping the last powerup strong enough to dispatch them easily). The corridor design detracts from the exploration and should really only be reserved for endgame areas like Impact Crater, Phaaze, or Tourian, not penultimate areas like Phazon Mines, Pirate Homeworld, or Maridia where you're still looking for the last few powerups.

StuTwo wrote:

The very late game scavenger hunt is a waste of time to make the game go on longer - I’d agree on that - but it does have some value.

I never mentioned the scavenger hunts and I like that part, it gives you one last opportunity to comb through the game at full power and demonstrate just how far you've come. I'm only concerned about the linearity of penultimate areas.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

Tendo64

I'll cop it for this - but the controls on the original are dogsh1t.

That alone made getting the remaster worth it for me.

Switch Friend Code: SW-7976-6692-0199

StuTwo

Bolt_Strike wrote:

But you admitted the game's improvements were subtle. If they're subtle, that's not really a "significant" improvement, so why spend $60 on that? It'd be better to just have an NSO version of the original instead of opting for a remake/remaster (for the gamer I mean, Nintendo benefits more from this, but the gamer does not).

The improvements are significant in their undertaking but they are subtle in their effect. Side by side you can see that this is not just an AI upscaling of textures and a higher resolution. So yes - it's both subtle and significant at the same time.

As to whether it's worth the asking price - that's a different question. I personally don't subscribe to the view that just because a game is old that it inherently loses value. A great game is a great game and I'd rather that they have a value than become worthless. I'm also realistic though - some games are great but aren't really palatable to a modern audience without some edges sanding off. In some (but not all) cases I'd rather pay for that process to be done sensitively than to have the sanding done by save states and rewind (as the NES and SNES NSO apps do).

I really don't think you can significantly improve a game without improving the original design. The original design is just far too central to the experience and recycling it means you're mainly going to the same places and doing the same things. Not much wiggle room for improvements if you're keeping that the same. Maybe you could add optional content, but that was never Metroid's style so restricting it to the same design basically dooms it to feel like the improvements are insignificant.

Yes - the original design is part of the appeal. You might have played the original game to death but a large minority (if not an actual majority) of Switch owners weren't even born when Metroid Prime was released. It didn't need the wheel reinventing - it just needed the graphics bringing in line with modern expectations and a few rough edges sanding down (in this case the controls).

Combine it with a marking map and you don't have that issue, you can mark an area that you know requires a later upgrade and remember to come back later when you have it. That removes the boring part of Metroidvanias and trims the fat.

I disagree - the "dangling fruit" of "oh I need to come back later in the game when I have the double jump/super missiles etc." is a key feature of Metroidvania games of course and these can be marked on maps but the very best Metroidvania games have unexpected power-ups that recontextualise the map/obstacles in very different ways that couldn't be anticipated when you first pass through a space (or even the 10th time you pass through that space).

It is a difficult balancing act. The gravity of the genre almost sets up a maximum map size and game length.

Checkpoints are a specific type of auto save, not another name for them. Some auto saves ARE hard saves.

I know - this is what I described. Soft auto-saves at checkpoints (entrance to a room etc.) supported by hard saves at save stations would have been a good compromise. It is something that would have improved the game without significantly impacting its balance or risk/reward too much (IMO). Metroid Dread uses such a system.

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

Bolt_Strike

StuTwo wrote:

The improvements are significant in their undertaking but they are subtle in their effect. Side by side you can see that this is not just an AI upscaling of textures and a higher resolution. So yes - it's both subtle and significant at the same time.

The effect is what matters, the effect is what the consumer sees and determines the value to the consumer. So if the effect is subtle, it largely defeats the purpose of recreating the game from scratch.

StuTwo wrote:

As to whether it's worth the asking price - that's a different question. I personally don't subscribe to the view that just because a game is old that it inherently loses value. A great game is a great game and I'd rather that they have a value than become worthless. I'm also realistic though - some games are great but aren't really palatable to a modern audience without some edges sanding off. In some (but not all) cases I'd rather pay for that process to be done sensitively than to have the sanding done by save states and rewind (as the NES and SNES NSO apps do).

It has nothing to do with how old the game is, it has to do with how it compares to a more modern game that is the standard for content and value. For example, a game like OoT, while great for its time, does not compare to a massive open world game like BotW or TotK. It's far smaller and far more linear, so that would naturally raise questions of why they would be charging the same amount if they tried selling an OoT remaster for $60. Now as for Metroid Prime, it's a little trickier because there's not much to compare to in terms of modern 3D Metroidvanias, but you can imagine Prime 4 is probably going to be significantly bigger as well and have a lot more QoL features and improvements, so perhaps $60 is a bit much. I'm personally not as bothered by this with Metroid Prime for now

StuTwo wrote:

Yes - the original design is part of the appeal. You might have played the original game to death but a large minority (if not an actual majority) of Switch owners weren't even born when Metroid Prime was released. It didn't need the wheel reinventing - it just needed the graphics bringing in line with modern expectations and a few rough edges sanding down (in this case the controls).

Okay first of all, I don't think the design changes require a reinvention of the wheel. Just a few new sections added here and there, mostly to Magmoor Caverns and Phazon Mines.

Second, the changes aren't just for the people who've played it before. Younger players who never played this game would probably want similar changes too. Several of these issues would stick out to younger players on their first time through the game, so some of the design and QoL changes would bring the game more in line with the more modern experiences they're used to.

StuTwo wrote:

I disagree - the "dangling fruit" of "oh I need to come back later in the game when I have the double jump/super missiles etc." is a key feature of Metroidvania games of course and these can be marked on maps but the very best Metroidvania games have unexpected power-ups that recontextualise the map/obstacles in very different ways that couldn't be anticipated when you first pass through a space (or even the 10th time you pass through that space).

It is a difficult balancing act. The gravity of the genre almost sets up a maximum map size and game length.

It would be ideal to have such a powerup, but not always feasible. And DEFINITELY not in a remaster where older fans already know what to expect or one where you can just scan anything to see what you need to clear that obstacle.

But even if you are able to include such a powerup, a marking map and fast travel should still be necessary features of any Metroidvania in this day and age. There's a far wider variety of games today so if a player gets bored, they'd be more inclined to drop the game and play something else, and repetition increases boredom. Trimming the fat is absolutely necessary to keep players engaged with the game. Even if they get a wild powerup that interacts with the world in a way they don't expect, they should still be able to go straight for the dangling fruit that they do expect.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

luckyseven

Just got this in the mail today! I’ve seen a lot of praise for Prime so I hope it’s good

xenoblade!!!

Please login or sign up to reply to this topic