I got the lily pad shine, which is probably the most annoying shine in the game. Riding the boats with Yoshi is more annoying than the actual level though. Make sure you have plenty of lives though.
@Spanjard This is definitely the case with Mario 64 and Sunshine. Save states are one way to make old games approachable but they're not the only way nor necessarily the best.
The "cheat" that I wish they had patched in though is an option to greatly increase the starting number of lives. I know I can easily farm them before approaching a stage that will leach my lives from me but why should I have to? Especially when an hour ago I might have closed the game when I had 60 lives in stock. It just artificially increases the game length for no good reason and punishes players who want to or have to play in short bursts.
Galaxy literally lets you pick up 5 lives from Peach through the mail every time you reopen the game - to save you time from having to farm. It's a light touch way of addressing the underlying problem.
I got the lily pad shine, which is probably the most annoying shine in the game. Riding the boats with Yoshi is more annoying than the actual level though. Make sure you have plenty of lives though.
Usually what I do in that level is if I don't get all the coins on the first run, I walk along the edge of the course and go back to the beginning. It's pretty narrow so you have to take your time and be carerul not to fall, but it's a lot less of a headache than trying to grab all 8 coins in one run.
@Cynas Too much hassle. The first four are very easy. The first two are in line with the river, and you only have to steer a little to the left to grab the third and fourth coin. Same with 5 and 6, but they require a bit more work. The seventh one is the only tricky one, but you can also grab the 1-UP shroom if you're not too confident. Or if you miss one of the first ones, grab the 1-UP and jump in the river. That's what I do at least. I still think that pipe was planned to take to back to the beginning, but for some reason takes you out of the level. You can do that at any time already.
@WoomyNNYes Yeah, the idea is that you spray his mouth, but the hit box is quite big, so nearly anywhere on its body is fine as long as his mouth is open/
@StuTwo But having to go through the easy part (which gets easier due to repetition) to get to the hard part is what games like Dark Souls are all about as well. And because there's a difficult part ahead, the easy part themselves get your blood pumping a bit because you become aware that failing at it delays getting to try the hard part even longer. Of course Dark Souls and the like also have resources on top (health, estus flasks, and so on), but the principle is the same.
That said I understand it's not for everybody, but it's a core factor of why these old games are still cherished: Because mastery of the game has a high skill ceiling and doesn't come easy. Conversely, Super Mario Odyssey is a game that's so forgiving I have no desire to replay it, because after beating it once, there's no challenge left. The challenge in that is simply exploring and finding the moons; the skill in getting them was, to me, minimal. And whenever I do fail for being sloppy, it puts me back so close to where I failed that it doesn't feel like punishment at all.
Odyssey feels like a rollercoaster ride with safety precautions all over; SM64 feels like a playground where you can hurt yourself, but that makes the play more fun.
What you say about Super Mario 64 is also true about Super Mario Sunshine. I agree 100% with your comment, you explained it well and wisely and I'd add that that's exactly why Super Mario 64 and Sunshine are much more fun than Super Mario Odyssey because the challenge is part of the fun.
I also believe that Super Mario 64 and Sunshine provide more immersion to the player, you feel more connected to the characters and to the adventure. Like @Octane and I have said before, Sunshine is the most cohesive of any Mario game on top of all this.
By the way, after a while I learnt how to jump, throw Cappy, catch it and jump on it, throw it again and leap ahead. It doesn't feel natural or intuitive but I could get some moons doing that.
@StuTwo But in Super Mario 64 and Sunshine is quick and easy to go back to the challenge unless you run out of lives and see the Game Over screen. You can avoid that stocking lives up.
EDIT: I am not against save states because some people might find them very helpful but in these three games save states would be off-putting so I wouldn't use them (I used them in Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels, though). Super Mario 64, Sunshine and Galaxy should be experienced without save states. I also think that the pipe mentioned above should take you back to the beginning of the challenge.
When/how do you unlock the other nozzles in the hub area in Sunshine?
I've got like 40 shine sprites already, but no nozzles. I haven't played this for 20 years, I remember nothing except the general layout of the first couple of levels.
@Dezzy You unlock them in Delfino Plaza when you have 25 and 30 shine sprites. Turbo nozzle is at 25 shines, and the rocket nozzle is at 30 shines. However, it may be possible that you need to unlock Yoshi first. Beat the fourth episode in Pinna Park, and you will unlock Yoshi, you will also unlock the nozzles that way.
@Spanjard@UrielLink Well, I HAVE played it before (not all the way through, but whatevs), but my goal this time is to collect all the stars. So it makes more sense to do all of the challenges in a given level, if possible (obviously, stars dependent on collecting the caps have had to be delayed). It's not like the game has a sense of adventure or continuity to it like most subsequent Mario games, anyway. The levels all feel random and disconnected because of the way you jump into paintings in a castle.
I will say this, though: some of the stars do recall Odyssey insofar as they're unsatisfying to get. Except, at least in Odyssey, you could collect the moon and continue about your business, whereas 64 kicks you out of the level even after you obtain a gimme of a star.
@Northwind Some people like to play games with everything at their disposal, and if there's no way to disable save states, ignoring them just isn't possible. It's similar to the reason I can't play Final Fantasy VII Remastered on PS4/Switch. Just the knowledge that a literal invincibility mode is a stick and button away at any time, with no option to disable or remove it, ruins any sense of immersion I have in the game, because, whenever I experience the slightest bit of difficulty, I know that it's needless. It's like play acting at that point, like doing a nuzlocke run of a Pokemon game, or closing your eyes and trying to feel your way to the front door of your home. Limitations are an integral part of the game design, and not just something I can happily ignore.
With that said, I think it's fine to include features like that so long as it's also possible to disable them (permanently, preferably).
@status-204 I have no issue with genuine challenge in games, which is probably why I enjoyed the post-game of Mario Odyssey much more than the story playthrough (which, yes, was too easy). But in Mario 64, I feel like, aside from infuriating coin placements and those effing slide sections, the challenge primarily comes from how aged the game is: the terrible camera, the way I can't move Mario around without feeling like the character is out of control, etc. The narrow paths and weird level geometry just add to the aggravation.
I don't think a game being hard automatically makes it fun or well-designed, and I feel like that's the case in a lot of Mario 64 stages for me, which often don't feel particularly rewarding to finish.
@StuTwo In fairness, lives have become a non-issue for me since I discovered they're incredibly easy to farm in the vanish cap level.
But yeah, the lives mechanic was a complete waste in this game. It's not like getting a game over actually accomplishes anything other than adding a bit of tedium in terms of getting back to the painting, lol. The game kicks you out of a level whenever you die anyway, and I can only think of a select couple so far where you actually start anywhere other than the beginning of the course after getting kicked out.
They made a bit more sense in Sunshine/Galaxy's larger levels, but this game has tiny levels (that somehow still feel empty) and no bosses apart from some boring Bowser encounters, so it's literally almost no punishment at all.
@StuTwo But in Super Mario 64 and Sunshine is quick and easy to go back to the challenge unless you run out of lives and see the Game Over screen. You can avoid that stocking lives up
I disagree. There are plenty of points in Sunshine in particular where a failure late on can add a couple of minutes (often because a jump isn't intuitive with the terrible camera). I can think of one shine I got in Rico harbour yesterday. You climb up the wire fences (no skill) and then wait until the hook moves into position so you can jump onto it. There are several hooks to wait for. Then you have to use FLUUD to hover over to a chain link platform (which it's never clear if you're hovering over). Fall and you're in the water and it's 2 minutes to get back again. I know that's the tip of the iceberg because I've finished the game in the past - I'll keep playing it but I don't expect I'll be bothered finishing it in 2020.
Likewise (though I haven't had the issue yet in this playthrough) I know there are some special stages later on in Sunshine that are a little tricky to get to and where a game over sets you back time needlessly. This just punishes players who dip and dip out of the game because your lives reset to 4 every time you restart the game and you either risk wasting time by having a game over or you waste time by farming lives elsewhere.
If you want to argue that it's good design for a deliberate purpose - to heighten the tension etc. that's absolutely your prerogative. I disagree.
I think with Mario 64 the issue is less pronounced because you always have the choice to get a different star instead and the levels are much smaller. The central design still comes across as dated though. I don't think it was ever intended to be a rock hard platformer the camera and controls just make it that in places.
With that said, I think it's fine to include features like that so long as it's also possible to disable them (permanently, preferably)
I agree and I think that this is the best solution but I'd say lock them on different difficulty levels, e.g., only the easy mode allows this kind of things (invincible mode, rewind, etc.). Normal mode shouldn't include any of this and hard modes should increase the challenge as usual.
But in Mario 64, I feel like, aside from infuriating coin placements and those effing slide sections, the challenge primarily comes from how aged the game is: the terrible camera, the way I can't move Mario around without feeling like the character is out of control, etc. The narrow paths and weird level geometry just add to the aggravation.
Brutal difficulty is the defining characteristic of many of Nintendo's older games, and older games in general, and playing them after you've gotten used to more forgiving modern game design standards can feel like a kick in the teeth.
Anyone else having a hard time trying to talk to NPCs? Friggin' impossible unless standing at the exact spot which Is usually not what you'd expect. It's awful in Sunshine and 64, but Galaxy seems to work OK. Still tough at times tho.
You need to be standing completely still. If Mario has even a little bit of motion, he'll jump instead of initiating a conversation.
@Mountain_Man I know I have to, but I shouldn’t have to be absolutely still for 3 seconds or so just to talk to someone. In games like Odyssey you could run past them and still talk. In fact, it was pretty difficult NOT to talk to them if you were anywhere close by.
I do like the dialogue in this game a lot better then other Mario games, so it’s almost always worth it to go through that trouble. For example, the rafters in the Delfino Hotel, where one of the cleaners says someone needs to come and vacuum up all the ghosts. What’s funny is Luigi’s Mansion came out around the same time.
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