Topic: What Switch Games Will You Revisit With A Performance Boost?

@Matt_Barber
In terms of Switch backwards compatibility I would say the limiting factor would be how the game was originally programmed. What assets they used, what limits they put on it to get a stable output etc. So unless they patch those titles you're right I wouldn't be expecting miracles out of BC games

But the GPU clock here isn't a concern. The leak was for ~1Ghz docked vs 768Mhz on Switch and ~560Mhz in portable mode vs 307Mhz on the Switch. Yes this is only a minor jump in raw clock speed..... but the Switch had 256 GPU cores vs 1536 on Switch 2. It's a wide boy. And that's before you consider the 4x jump in memory bandwidth and probably something like 10x jump in raw storage bandwidth. And certainly before you consider newer features and tricks. This is just straight up raw compute

Again, Switch games won't really be able to run better than the limits of the asset quality and framerate/resolution limits imposed on them. Short of patching or otherwise modifying how it runs in one way or another which would need to be looked at on a per-game basis. But ...... there's so much more power just sitting here and it would require work to not use it

I would expect Switch games to run on Switch 2 at locked max framerates and the high points of their dynamic resolution scaling range for days. With stupid fast load times and significantly smoother pacing. They won't magically be 4K but.... it will mean some games that ran at 60fps but in areas dipped down to 20 might now run at 60fps all the time. Or games with obnoxious load times and stuttering might now run smooth

If they update the N64 app for Switch 2 hopefully they can fix Banjo Tooie, as the emulation on that is terrible

@skywake That's all well and good for games that are GPU bottlenecked and programmed in a way that'll utilize the extra compute units. For Switch games that ship with precompiled shaders, I'm not sure if that's going to happen automatically; it's not necessarily going to be like when you upgrade the GPU in a PC and all your shaders get recompiled to take advantage of it. Maybe someone who knows more about modern GPUs could tell us?

Also, I'd suspect that a lot of Switch games are bottlenecked by the CPU, they're definitely not going to be able to benefit much from the extra cores, so most of the uplift they see will be in the single-threaded performance, which isn't going to be that much running the same code at more or less the same clock speed.

Anyway, my main point is that how it works is still unknown. In the worst case, it's still possible the backwards compatibility will do the bare minimum and just run games basically as they were on the original Switch. Hopefully that's not the case and we will see automated improvements that even give unpatched games some uplift, while patched games could see dramatic differences of the sort you're describing. We'll find out soon enough.

@Matt_Barber
I think you're also being pessimistic about the CPU bump. I'll do some googling later to see if I can pin down something but I would expect the single threaded performance will also be a significant bump. Maybe not as significant as the GPU bump but it's going to be something like 2x from the article skimming I can do now

Also, CPU performance doesn't live alone. There are no shortage of Switch games that are choked by memory bandwidth issues

@skywake You'll probably find that the A78 does significantly better than the A57 clock-for-clock with synthetic benchmarks. However, that assumes that it's running code made with its full instruction set rather than just ported straight over from the A57. If it's running the same instructions they'll mostly have the same timings, bar a few architectural improvements.

Maybe some game engines can detect the more powerful CPU and get an automatic bump; I'm just assuming that most Switch games wouldn't because they knew exactly what it'd be running on, at least they did until the Switch 2 was announced.

I already acknowledged memory bandwidth improvements but that's mostly an issue for GPU-bound games. Based on what I've seen in the modding and emulation scenes, it's badly optimized ports that tend to reap the biggest benefits, while games that already run well don't tend to benefit a lot. Maybe it'll flip the narrative on some games entirely.

Anyway, that's not to say that you can't be optimistic. Even if there's relatively little improvement out of the box, getting patches out for specific games to use extra Switch 2 features for performance wouldn't be too much work for those interested and there's always the possibility that the clock speeds leak is wrong - after all, everyone's wondering why it'd be slower when docked - and they're significantly higher on the Switch 2. That's what I'd want to see, after all.

This is all really a note of caution, lest we get too optimistic when the details finally come out.

I look forward to Xenoblade Chronicles 2 running in glorious 30 fps rather than 10 to 20 fps on OG Switch.

@Magician
Have you ever taken a real close look at the overworld gameplay?
It's seriously low resolution and smudgy from what I think is early FidelityFX type technology.
I'm looking forward to seeing if a Switch 2 updated version can boost the resolution too.

@skywake "I would expect Switch games to run on Switch 2 at locked max framerates and the high points of their dynamic resolution scaling range for days. With stupid fast load times and significantly smoother pacing. They won't magically be 4K but.... it will mean some games that ran at 60fps but in areas dipped down to 20 might now run at 60fps all the time. Or games with obnoxious load times and stuttering might now run smooth"

Seems a sensible approach to be thinking. I agree.

I have seen people take it as a given that they will be playing certain 30fps games at 60 once it is out. Nintendo have not said that, to my knowledge, though.

@RupeeClock

Having not played XC2 since its release, I don't remember being triggered by the low framerate and/or resolution in the open world. I think Digital Foundry did a performance review of XC2 which was mildly tragic. And that's why I'm eager to see what kind of performance enhancements Switch 2 might bring to XC2.

@Magician
Yeah, back when I originally played XBC2 on launch year, things like the frame rate and resolution weren't bothering me like they may do today. It's a lot more noticeable in handheld mode in particular, but I primarily played it docked.

If you see comparison shots online of original hardware compared to emulated with resolution mods, it's night and day.

I know this is not a high-performance game to begin with ,but I'd love to play my Copy of Sonic Superstars at the same resolution I would get on the Xbox Series. It would really make me feel like I'm getting more value tbh. I hope Sonic games get next-gen versions for switch 2 instead of the weak switch ports.

@Mothertroid
Nearly all of the Sonic games on Switch, barring Mania and Origins, need Switch 2 upgrades.
Forces, Frontiers, Superstars, Generations, Superstars, and probably Team Sonic Racing too.

At least Sonic Superstars ran at 60 FPS on actual hardware, but forced 720p when playing docked wasn't great. Unity games which are capped at 30 FPS on Switch usually have really bad input delay, so I'm glad they avoided that.

Game Freak never bothered to retroactively optimise the Gen VI Pokémon games for New 3DS systems, nor have the Fire Emblem games been optimised either, not even Fates, which got its own themed New 3DS XL console!

The Gen VII Pokémon games got a slight performance boost on the New 3DS, but still no 3D for the overwhelming majority of the game, and the improvements weren't exactly night and day either.

So, while I would like to see Scarlet/Violet get the optimisation that they have been starving for since their premature release on the original Switch, I wouldn't count on Game Freak revisiting the games with their hectic schedule, prioritising deadlines over quality.

Though I admit that I would be tempted if Scarlet/Violet were to resurface on the Switch 2, but I was less impressed with the gameplay itself rather than just its performance, so I'm not convinced that even a silky smooth experience would benefit it enough to warrant playing it all again a third and fourth time. I'd rather revisit Sword/Shield or Legends Arceus instead.

@SillyG I don't think they will optimize S/V for Switch 2 but I am curious how it will run naturally. There are aspects of that game which literally run at 3 frames per second so I am curious what happens on Switch 2.

I do think they will probably add some Switch 2 optimization for Pokemon Legends Z-A even if it ends up coming out before Switch 2.

Circling back to this point. I'm no graphics programmer or graphics API programmer but would argue that for backwards compatibility to work they need some kind of solution for GPU compatibility. Especially given some games, as you said, ship with pre-compiled shaders. But they have confirmed backwards compatibility so we know they have a solution. Which means the extra GPU power will be there

I would note that technically they've already tackled this problem. Skyward Sword HD at its core is still a Wii game. A Wii game patched with higher resolution assets, different framerate/resolution targets and new control inputs. And they recompiled the game so it runs natively on ARM. But they emulate the Wii's GPU via a translation layer that sits between the Wii graphics calls and the Switch's API. I think this is likely the template Switch BC on Switch 2 will follow

In a way such a solution wouldn't be unlike what happens on the Steam Deck with Proton being a windows compatibility layer. The main difference being that Switch games were all developed targeting one API and the developers of that API are also developing the new API and designed the hardware for both units. So I would imagine they have a good handle on it

Another thing to consider, shader compilation. Several possibilities here I think. Firstly it's possible that this is just handled via that translation layer. Again, I'm not a graphics API programmer so maybe that's not possible. Another option is that they just have the shaders compile dynamically in game which I hope they don't because that could be a step back for some games. Alternatively they compile them when you boot the game which would suck but it'd only happen once. Lastly, and again looking at Steam Deck, they could just distribute it as an update

But what I can't see is a scenario in which the extra GPU and CPU power isn't just there to use. Because once you have the game running, which they will do given they've confirmed BC, they'll have that extra power on tap. Not new features and not at higher resolutions without patching. But the power will be there because they haven't snuck a Tegra X1 into this thing from what I can tell

While I can't really think of any Switch that would benefit a performance boost on Switch 2, I do think many that do will probably get one in a form of a patch/update. Kinda like how select PS4 games did on the PS5.

Gotta wait & see though.

The Switch games I would revisit depending on what the upgrades are. Kirby and the Forgotten Land is a major one I want an upgrade for, maybe have a consistent frame rate (things in the back have pretty bad frame rate) and higher resolution. Pikmin 4 is one of the most impressive looking Switch games, but higher resolution would be nice to get (the resolution is pretty good on Switch but could definitely be better on Switch 2). Pikmin 4 loading times are very long so I'd love if we could cut it down shorter. Speaking of, the only upgrade I want for Animal Crossing New Horizons would be faster loading times. That'd make the game significantly better as there's way too much gameplay that's just loading.

@skywake Yes, they'll have a solution but what if that solution is that the Switch 2 just presents itself as close to a Switch as possible down to giving the games exactly the same performance modes for docked and handheld play? With a library of 10,000+ games that they'll want to work straight out of the box, a conservative approach does seem called for at least for the default option.

Also, it's not just some games that ship with pre-compiled shaders but pretty much all of them. That's long been a standard for consoles because, when you know you're always running on the same GPU, it's just easier that way. AMD have specialized in making GPUs that still run older shader models because of this; the Wii U, for instance, had extra features integrated it into to make the Wii's pre-unified shaders run on it.

Although Nvidia haven't usually done this with their PC GPUs, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the approach they took with the Switch 2. The alternative is that you have a long wait with each game the first time you run and it'll gradually eat up your storage. Translating very old shaders on the fly might work for something like Wii games, but you're not doing a modern GPU that way. All Switch emulators recompile the shaders, for what it's worth.

Also, believe it or not, but just boosting everything to the maximum speed of the new hardware could create problems in itself because yes, it's possible for games to run too fast. Most of Nintendo's previous backwards compatible offerings didn't run games faster for this reason, and the same applies here. The main difference is that we're finally getting a console that could patch previous generation games over the air, and a basic performance boost could simply be a switch that the developer chooses to turn on if they're happy with how it runs. If they then want to take it from there and fully utilize what the Switch 2 offers, I suspect that they'll have to break out the full development kit for that.

@Matt_Barber
The only way it would be the exact same performance as the Switch would be if they have a Tegra X1 sitting in there and they boot into compatibility mode. That's how Nintendo have done backwards compatibility in the past but they're not doing it this time. There has to be some kind of GPU emulation/translation layer

And given that I don't see what advantage you would gain from the additional effort required to throttle the GPU for compatibility. The SoC is engineered to run efficiently within a specific range of frequencies so you're not going to save battery by throttling down. And while yes, some games can break if you overclock but most games are programmed with framerate caps and are designed to run well when they live within that range. You're talking about additional effort here for a reduction in performance. I don't see what value that would add. If the goal was to match exactly the Switch they would've just put the Switch SoC in there, they haven't, so the next option is to translate and just use the bigger and more powerful GPU

On the precompiled shader bit and AMD having done things to support precompiled shaders in the past while Nvidia hasn't. Nvidia also hasn't had two consoles in a row before. The original XBox has an Nvidia GPU but with the 360 they moved to ATI/AMD. The PS3 had an NVidia GPU but with the PS4 they also went to AMD. Nintendo was AMD from GC through Wii U and only swapped to NVidia for the Switch. The Switch 2 is the first time NVidia has had two consoles in a row

Also as I said, on the PC space shaders can't be pre-compiled because there's a huge variety of GPU architectures across machines. The only real exception is the Steam Deck which is a single product with a single GPU spec. And the Steam client distributes precompiled shaders alongside the game download. That could easily be the solution taken here for BC (with an option to compute the shaders before loading if you are without internet)

@skywake No, they don't need to have a Tegra X1 in there to do that. The Wii U, for instance, doesn't have the Broadway and Hollywood processors from the Wii in it. It just uses its own Espresso and Latte processors to present an interface to Wii games that's virtually indistinguishable from the original hardware, and yes, that includes lowering the clock speeds to match.

Nintendo have already done what that you said that they can't do. I don't think they'll necessarily do it exactly the same way again, but I wouldn't assume that they'll be bending over backwards to provide extra performance on existing games where mere compatibility is probably a more important consideration.