Topic: What makes a game "GOTY"?

@JaxonH Thanks for the elaborate addition, and duly noted. I think that at the end of the day, there'll always be some kind of bias, and it'll ultimately always be up to the consumer to decide whether or not a game is good or great enough for them, much like with all the movies that are totally ripped to shreds by the official media and critics, but still offer up plenty of entertainment and value for money regardless.

I never blindly trust critics or reviewers anyway, concerning any kind of media or product, so I'm good either way.

@JaxonH TBF it's all subjective. TLOU2 is probably my favourite PS4 game, hands down. I personally liked the story. I am kinda annoyed that most of the discourse is about the ''wokeness'' of the game. ND has an ''agenda'' if you will, but I personally didn't find it intrusive. But even if you forget that there's a trans character in the game, and the fact that Ellie is gay, it's still a brilliantly crafted game. The level of detail is unlike anything I've seen before in a game. I'm also one of the few who liked the gameplay of the original, and this one expands on it a lot more. So it's all good in my book.

Death Stranding is another interesting case. Because it sounds repetitive on paper, and I'm certain some think it is, but it's one of the few open world games I thoroughly enjoyed. Enough to complete it actually. I think it's partly due to the fact that traversal isn't as straight-forward as any other game; it IS the game. So going from A to B always posed various challenges to keep the player engaged.

I'm also kinda shocked to see the low user review score for Animal Crossing. Reading them they mostly have to do with the fact that Nintendo doesn't like giving people options. But for someone who doesn't share the system with others, this wasn't an issue for me, fortunately. But the game itself is probably the best Animal Crossing has ever been.

@Octane
If that's the case, I respect your opinion because you based it on the game itself, and nothing else. I'm 100% on board with that, even if I disagree. I liked the gameplay of the original also, actually. And the second. But it is a story driven game, and I feel the story and characters suffered. And that opinion has nothing to do with their agenda. Although I'm not a fan of using video games to advance agendas, I think the game itself suffers greatly because of unrelatable characters, and a story that was significantly worse than the first. I do think the agenda is partly to blame- if it ain't broke dont fix it, and we liked the characters we had. But had it turned out great, I would have had no objection, at least in terms of game critique.

While opinions are subjective, what's not is the percentage non-corporate-media players who find the characters unrelatable versus the corporate media. Universal acclaim, 10/10 across the board within the corporate media. Yet reviewers not affiliated with corporate media, overwhelmingly gave it lower scores. And not just peabodies with 100 subs. The big, reputable reviewers. Among ACG, YongYea, SkillUp and Angry Joe NOT ONE of them liked the game. That's a statistical discrepancy that subjectivity cannot account for. Something more is going on. And the answer is corporate gaming media bias.

As for Animal Crossing, I agree. It's not my favorite game, but I also have no issues with sharing options. I play solo. And it's clear many user reviews are just bashing on principle, not because it actually affects them.

My issue with Death Stranding is not the fact I personally wouldn't rate it anywhere near GotY, my issue is the media who, by their own admission, say its repetitive and not fun, yet still award a 10/10. That's a serious contradiction.

I believe that a GOTY winner should be able to involve players in such ways that they feel part of its fantasy world and even more allow them players to become creative with innovative methods and gameplay mechanics. In addition I also believe that players should definitely be able to develop unique feelings and perhaps some emotional attachment to the protagonists and possibly their in-game creations. That’s why I do feel that Animal Crossing: New Horizons, even though I’m not a fan of the series, must win the GOTY title and also because in our current reality full of financial and health uncertainty, it allowed players to escape into an exotic island and indulge themselves into simple fun actions such as collecting bugs, catching fish, and walking in natural landscapes. It showed, amidst the craziness of our today’s world, that the most satisfying activities are the most simplest ones and that actual happiness, relaxation, and coziness can be found in video games. Hopefully this would be a lesson learnt for mankind and people, especially those living in the so called First World countries, will realize that life is fun even in its simplest and most innocent form.

Obviously though, a GOTW winner should be extremely polished with crisp graphics, sounds, and of course free of glitches, lag, and other technical issues and also be accessible to a wide audience, preferably to be able to reach non-gamers as well. Similarly to what @Bolt_Strike said above.

@ThanosReXXX Everyone has bias. The clear bias from Western critics is for third-person action-adventure games, which is why Nintendo games only ever seem to be in contention when a new Zelda title releases, and why Sony's first-party output is so disproportionately represented.

Related to this is the bias toward mainstream entertainment, where more popular and easily consumed media is favored over unusual genres and/or hardcore experiences.

It's also worth pointing out that there's a clear bias on the part of the industry toward Playstation franchises in general. Look at the nominees for this year's TGA, for example: despite remasters ostensibly being shunned, especially in the case of games like Xenoblade DE (which wasn't even nominated for best OST) and last year's Dragon Quest XI S, you have something like Persona 5 Royal, a remaster of a 2017 release that already won a few awards, being up for best RPG AGAIN.

I think the only way to really get around this is to factor in audience votes more heavily (in a way that can't be easily gamed like an online poll).

Although it's worth pointing out that sometimes people will just have viewpoints that are divergent from the majority, and that's fine. A number of people felt underwhelmed by Breath of the Wild, for example, and think that other releases that year got robbed. I think it's also easy to scream about bias when, in reality, you're just a bit salty that your preferred release wasn't the one showered with affection and awards.

@Octane The issue with New Horizons for me is that the simulation elements are paper thin. There's no job to attend to, no daily routines you really need to engage with, no games or activities to do with other players, etc. What REALLY got me, though, is just how much the villagers had been nerfed. Villagers could be pushy and annoying in previous games, but that gave them a sense of... presence, I guess you could say. Villagers literally only exist in this new game to compliment you and give you presents. They never hassle you about social engagements, never seem like they're living a life of any sort.

These social elements were replaced with a fixation on customization. Do whatever you please with your house! Decorate the island with your crap when your house is too full! Build and shape the island to suit your exact whims! New Horizons feels less like the original Animal Crossing game than it does Minecraft in creative mode or something.

The game, don't get me wrong, is still fun as long as you're following the story. But the systems are paper-thin and the true shallowness of the experience becomes very evident once you finally reach your goal of attracting K.K. Slider to your town. Nobody plays Animal Crossing for the story, they play it to be immersed in the flow of life in another world, and, in that respect, New Horizons falls on its face.

And, yeah, the utter lack of QoL updates is annoying.

@jump If I knew Hugo Chavez's ghost was going to climb out of hell and "inject" Biden votes in our voting machines, I wouldn't have had to wait in that hour-long line. I need to find out how I sign up for the satanist/leftist/NWO mailing list so I can coordinate with them more easily.

@JaxonH I don't think a game being dark and subversive in terms of its approach to the story should disqualify it from winning awards. And I certainly don't think a vocal minority of people on the internet whose rabid hatred of the game is likely ideologically-driven itself should factor into the matter. I think there's a certain level of value to be had in artists refusing to take the audience-pleasing approach with sequels.

Looking at the matter as objectively as possible, the game is undeniably ambitious and a technical marvel on the PS4. I think those factors alone make it deserving of consideration during award season.

As to the story, all I'll say is this: I don't think it's any more fair to say critics are overlooking "shortcomings" because of woke ideological commitments than it is to say you're hammering the game because you don't like gay/trans people. Granted, I think some people probably fall into both of those camps (and, to be perfectly candid, the stench of transphobia was almost overwhelming from the opposition camp when the uproar over the game was at its peak), but I also think it's worth giving people the benefit of the doubt and taking them at face value.

For all of this conspiracy talk about about the corporate agenda advancement by the media or whatever TLOU2 actually won by fan vote. The media themselves made Hades the critics winner.

Game of the Year is borderline meaningless to me at this point. If there's anything I've learned over the last decade and a half that I've used the internet regularly, is that there's always going to be more people who disagree with me than agree. That's just the nature of the beast.

The only way I would really respect a GOTY award anymore was if the game not only go the most votes, but got the majority of votes AND did so without having runoffs and stuff. But that's never going to happen.

@Ralizah Well, I must admit, I've never played the DS and 3DS AC games. I played the original back in the day, which I liked a lot. I wasn't a big fan of the Wii game. This one is certainly an improvement over that, but I can definitely see where you're coming from. I'm definitely annoyed you still can't craft more than 1 fish bait at a time (maybe this was fixed recently, I haven't played for a while!).

@Ralizah Yeah, true enough, there'll always be some form of bias and/or opinion creeping into even the most objective of reviews and/or award-giving committees. Going by that, the hopes of ever seeing a truly deserving GOTY awarded game seems further away than ever before...

Either way, for me personally, it's kinda like what I already said to Jax: I'll enjoy a game (or any kind of media, really) regardless of critical review, awards or industry recognition. If the initial impression of it speaks to me, and if what I then gather information-wise still confirms that impression, then I'll play it regardless of whether or not it's a solid 10, let alone a GOTY.

On a side note: I already said this before, earlier in this thread, but in case you missed it: I have no issues with games having characters that aren't heterosexual, long as they aren't put in there for the sake of it, or that because of them being put in there, the story suffers or becomes forced. Long as it works and doesn't feel like they (the developers) decided to appease certain audiences for whatever reason, then I absolutely don't mind.

Having said that though, there most definitely has been more media attention for TLOU2, because of those very elements. That's simply undeniable. Some media even called the game "revolutionary" because of it having a lesbian main character. And regardless of how few media or how little the amount of attention, once it's out there, it'll have some kind of influence on the aggregate result regarding awards and/or critical reception.

@Ralizah
That's a fair assessment. I do think often times accusations of bias come from a place of resentment from a game someone feels is worthy being shunned.

This year I actually have no real opinion one way or the other for an official GotY. I know which games I think SHOULDN'T win, but I don't have a favored pick myself. The best games I played are mostly all disqualified. Sniper Elite 4 on Switch, Xenoblade Chronicles DE, Outer Worlds which released on Steam recently (not the Switch version- which is another good example of why I think multiplats should be chosen by platform- that release was a disgrace). I think Persona 5 Royal is one of the best games released too, but again, it was already nominated.

Like, Monster Hunter World SHOULD have won GotY in 2018. Without question. The fact that game got stiffed boggles the mind. And Monster Hunter Rise will get stiffed even harder since it's Switch exclusive. They seem to be ok giving a nod to Switch once or twice a generation when a big 1st party property releases (like Zelda) but I'd be shocked and amazed if a 3rd party exclusive gets any recognition whatsoever. Frankly, I think the only reason Bayonetta 2 was ever nominated was because the Wii U was such a bombastic failure they didnt feel threatened, and saw it as handing out charity. With Switch's success, that sort of thing is much less likely now.

Theyll bury that game along with all the other GotY caliber releases on Switch that aren't one of Nintendo's premier 20 million selling 1st party properties.

@ThanosReXXX
Well said. I dont take issue with any of that stuff, if it's natural, not forced and doesnt affect the game negatively. At the end of the day, I just want a good game. That's it. Heck, even if it IS forced, as long as the game is just as good as it would have otherwise been... no problem. A good game is a good game. End of story. I just want good games.

But when forced aspects affect a game negatively while simulataneously making criticism bullet proof as the media hoist it up on a pedestal as some kind of bold and daring masterpiece... that's a problem. Because those in power then masquerade the game as being better than it really is, as it becomes more about using it as a tool to promote their interests than a video game to be fairly critiqued.

@JaxonH Yup, that about sums it up. My point exactly.

By the way, what's up with the Monster Hunter fanboy torch-holding?

All kidding aside though, I am curious as to why you think it should have been awarded as GoTY. I've actually enjoyed the Wii version, but I never seemed to be willing or able to invest enough time in it, so ultimately, I lost interest, as with most games that demand too much of my time. I just can't seem to free up that much of my time anymore. It's also been months since I last visited my current Animal Crossing island...

Eh, I'd kind of like to play Last of Us 2 but I'm not getting a PS4 just for that, the 1st of those & a few other games I'm only vaguely interested in that are still exclusive .... I haven't read reviews for it but I couldn't help hearing the criticisms about the story & things!

@ThanosReXXX
It's just that good.

The series has always been excellent. MH4U was easily the best game I played in 2015. But it was still dated in many aspects. The quality was there, but the barrier to entry before the game got its hooks in a new player was incredibly high.

World changed everything. Brought it into the modern era. The gameplay was always fire. But it needed a makeover to appeal to the masses. World did nearly everything right. Sure, I have some nitpicks, but it's far closer to being a perfect video game than just about anything else I can think of, Breath of the Wild included.

Monster Hunter World took a series that was already regarded as one of the best of all time, for those who were into it and had invested the time to learn it properly, it took that series and broke down just about every barrier to entry there was. It opened the gates to an entirely new audience. People were amazed- how has this series been around for 15 years and I'm only just now learning of it?!!

Last time I'd seen that happen was with Fire Emblem Awakening. When millions of fans suddenly realized Nintendo had this gem of a franchise hiding in the shadows the entire time.

Many have actually argued for MH World being GOAT. Which would seem a little far fetched if it's not even good enough to be the best game of that year. But I think not only was it the best game of that year, I think it's an easy GOAT contender.

I expect Monster Hunter Rise to fall in the general ballpark of how great World was (potentially even better, fingers crossed!). The portable team is more experimental, and the wirebug mechanics look absolutely insane. At worst, I expect it to be the best game of 2021.

@ThanosReXXX Let me be clear: I couldn't care less if a game receives rewards and accolades or not. I've spent my life enjoying films, novels, games, etc. that either have cult appeal or are incredibly niche or unknown altogether. I think it's the most boring thing in the world to limit one's media exposure to the most sanitized, mass-produced, and mainstream fare out there.

Actually, in general, very little of my media diet falls into that 'mainstream' category. I do think it has netted me a reputation as something of a weirdo and/or contrarian, but I just find myself drawn to old, obscure, and unusual content.

As to the wokeness issue, let me be clear on this also: I'm very aware of how agenda-driven creators can ruin a good thing by inserting idpol nonsense into it. That happened with Doctor Who, and I'm still angry about it. I'll even grant that many critics will go out of their way to promote mediocre media that they feel aligns with their (usually progressive and/or leftist) beliefs and attack media that is guilty of wrongthink. I've seen the former with Ghostbusters (the 2016 one, obvs), and have even seen some of these same critics later admit that they were well-aware that the film was garbage, but they felt like it was more important to fend off reactionary critics who wanted big budget films to remain a boy's club. The latter is also unfortunately common, to the point where, if I see a film with a high user score and low critical score, my first instinct is to assume wrongthink on the part of the filmmakers.

With all that said, I've seen it happen just as often that said reactionary critics show a similar closedness of mind to art that explores gender expression, non-het relationships, themes related to racism or other forms of bigotry, etc. Sometimes this same group will accuse a piece of media of being "political" because it primarily stars poc actors, or trans characters, or whatever.

In terms of TLOU Part II, the initial response to the leaks was disturbing, not just because of the transphobia, but because of an undercurrent I've noticed in the ranks of perpetually offended "gamers" since at least Mass Effect 3's controversial ending. I guess it's an outgrowth of the viewpoint that games are only supposed to be fun, but I can't tell you how frequently fan outrage seems to go back to this idea that fans of something are only entitled to be exposed to media that they're comfortable with. In the case of TLOU, people were beside themselves that gasps dramatically fan favorite characters would be killed off so brutally, and especially when the game started to put the player into the shoes of the killer. Us gamers, we're uncomfortable with that! Our feelings of discomfort mean your game is bad! Or, whenever Nintendo or some other company tries something new or unusual, there's always at least one youtuber who talks about how "nobody asked for this." As if creators are somehow obliged to stick with formulas or content that the audience knows it's satisfied with.

Going back to the Arlo thing, it's why I can't stand the movement whose wheels he helped to grease. I totally get being disappointed when a series you love changes, but you lose me the moment you start demanding that companies cease with the experimentation and go back to what fans feel comfortable with. You lose me when your openness to new ideas, experiences, and whatnot is substituted for a sense of entitlement that the world shouldn't be challenging your expectations, beliefs, ideals, and so on.

I guess that opposition to the new and angry insistence that the world can't move on or change without you is likely the reason there's such a confluence between angry fan movements and conservative political viewpoints as of late.

@JaxonH My favorite game this year was Final Fantasy VII Remake. Not a chance in hell it wins, of course, but it's a loving, stunning remake of one of the most important games ever made, and I'm happy as hell to vote for it in every category where it's included.

But even if it doesn't win a thing, that doesn't really matter to me. The opinions of cultural elites are meaningless, IMO. Award shows, professional reviews, and so on made sense in the past, but in the age of the internet and social media, such people are relics. The technological evolution we've seen in the last few decades is pushing us toward pure democracy, and it's only the terror of the economic ruling class and the technocracy in general that has stymied that transition.

I mean, granted, people's demands can be ridiculous in nearly all occasions, so some people's anger can still be over the top and entitled even with that in mind. My response has more been to buy Bug Fables out of spite (much sooner than I would have) and to wait a long time before even thinking of trying Origami King, while being sad forever that one of my favorite series of games can't figure out how to be creative in ways that make me want to actually give it another chance, when that creativity was part of their appeal.

I actually edited this post down, because I mostly agreed with your post and didn't want a long rant to be posted.

@Ralizah
That was a pretty good read, and I think you're on point for the most part.

That said, while I agree the initial response to TLOU2 was ridiculous, I didnt see large amounts of transphobia or dislike of Joel being killed. It was more nuanced, even if that was hard to decipher in the madness of all the outrage (and believe me, I know how irrational gamers can be- I could write volumes about the insane illogical responses of gamers- they've never found a game they couldn't make a controversy over).

The issue wasn't that people had a phobia or fear of trans, it was the fact they felt like, surprise surprise, it's being shoehorned into yet another game just for the sake of "representation". And that's not good enough for most people- it certainly isn't good enough for me. I'd rather see diversity of character, diversity of thought- diversity in areas that actually matter, but the focus only ever seems to be with regard to the superficial (skin color, sexual orientation, insert outward characteristic or immutable trait here) while diversity of opinion is relegated to near-extinction through hostile enforcement of conformity. But I digress. Personally, I will at least still give a game a chance regardless, and if it's good, then eh, who cares. If their actions haven't impeded the quality of the product, then what's the beef? Unfortunately the character is God-awful.

As for Joel, I actually wanted him to die. I expected it too. I think most people expected it. How could the game possibly not result in such an outcome? The issue wasn't his death, but rather how early it occurred in the game, and how it occurred. It didn't feel well done at all. His death should have been powerful- a self sacrifice to save Ellie despite the rift between them- only then, at the end, does she understand how much he loved her. Instead it was more, "hey, remember that straight white male you loved so much? Ya, it's 2020, and we've moved past all that. Just crack his head open asap so we can have a new, more "equitable" main character take the spotlight moving forward. Oh, and we'll be sure this character is the one who kills him just to rub it in for anyone who isnt 100% on board with the progress train". That's how it felt, anyways.

And I think that's what alot of people felt, and took issue with. It's not that he died, it's when he died, how he died, why he died, and the fact they have you play as the most unlikable and unrelatable character afterwards. I'm sure there was plenty of irrational, blind hatred too, people who were never going to give the game a fair shake. Oh yes, I know these people exist too. If there's anything I've learned from Paper Mario and Pokemon, it's that gamers can be downright nutjobs. But at least from the people I spoke to, it was a lot deeper reasoning for them.

Unfortunately, people are getting so tired of the forced narratives that they are now becoming reactionary, to the point they're flipping out over stuff that doesn't even matter (as you yourself mentioned). And that polarization will only get worse with time. The more people push back, the more those who are forcing agendas will feed off their disdain and do it even more, and the more they force things, the more reactionary people will become. It's a vicious cycle, one to which I see no end in sight.

@Ralizah Good comment, well-thought out, and I agree for the most part. I may have failed to point that out, but my view on things doesn't exclude yours, and there's quite a few similarities as well.

As for being (perceived as) a contrarian, I don't know if that's just you thinking that, or if you really are, but I can relate to some extent, seeing as I'm a bit of a loner with non-standard tastes as well. But, having said that, I also enjoy a lot of mainstream media, and not because other people and/or sources convinced me to do so, but because I chose to and as such genuinely do.

I can find equal entertainment in the latest Marvel movie or in an art house movie. A good movie is a good movie, regardless of genre, source, potential audience and so on. Period. Well, in my opinion, at least.

In general, I'm a bit of both sides (or perhaps in the middle): I'm no hard leftist, but I'm no right wing extremist either, so you won't ever see me supporting idiots like we've had in the Oval Office over the last 4 years either. Luckily, I don't have to worry about that too much, seeing as I've left the States when I was 9 and have been living in Europe ever since. Far better climate, far as politics and social behavior is concerned. (again, in my opinion, just to be on the safe side)

But regardless of the better social climate, even over here we have small groups of people feeling left out/ignored, some rightfully so, others simply annoyingly so, and they're becoming more and more vocal, sometimes even achieving results.

The most ridiculous example that I can give you of that is that over here (Netherlands) they've now achieved that the train station speakers/announcers, who ever since train station broadcasting began, previously always started their announcement with "Dear ladies and gentlemen", now call out "Dear travelers", simply because of this small, decidedly vocal group of people that didn't feel comfortable with that type of announcement, because they don't identify themselves as either of those genders.

Now, in and of itself, there's nothing wrong with "Dear travelers", but the source and idea behind it is too ridiculous for me to even consider being an actual thing. And yet it is. That to me is the world upside down. It used to be that the majority rules, well at least: in any democracy that I know of, but nowadays it's all about minorities and offended people.

And in that regard, TLOU2 might be both a good and bad example of how this influences our world and our media. Good because it garners attention, and bad because of the potential unwarranted laurels it garners because of supposedly being "revolutionary". I hope these points come across as intended...

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for freedom of speech and inclusion, but these types of things only create bigger divides, if you ask me. In case of the example I gave: I never even noticed the gender-specific message in the train speakers, simply because all I hear and need from them is the information about my train and so on, so I don't care what the official addressing of the message is, long as I get what's ACTUALLY essential, and that is whether or not my train leaves on time and from which platform.

If I wanted to, I could also be offended by a ton of every day things, but as a smart and sensible person, I realize that the world is not all about me, and that I need to get a life of my own without trying to force myself or my potentially differential views on life and the world on anyone else.

That to me is not transphobia or whatever, but what it means to take part of/in society, and not being divisive. And even though we go along with society, that definitely doesn't mean that we can't have our own opinions, views or sentiments, so there as well, one doesn't necessarily exclude the other.

Anyway, we're veering off course way too far by now, in no small part also thanks to myself, but I wanted to get that out of the way, so there.

Long story short: we agree on most points, bar a few nuances, so far as I'm concerned, we're all good.

@ThanosReXXX
If you want to see where that kind of thing leads, it’s not good. I just learned about a women who innocently posted a pic of her Animal Crossing character on Twitter wearing Princess Leia hair buns. About 1000 people brutally harassed her, doxxed her, flagged her post, called her racist, etc. Why? Because now, apparently you’re not allowed to wear certain hairstyles if you don’t have the “correct” skin color. And if you violate this edict, you will be ruthlessly crushed by the authoritarian hate mob. Today it’s hairstyles and speech. Tomorrow it’s property rights. Next thing you know, there’s segregation and labor camps.

The sooner people realize it’s no longer right vs left... it’s moderate left and right together versus radicalized, authoritarian ideologues, the better. As far as I’m concerned, there is no left and right anymore. Only the sane, and the insane. The authoritarian, and the libertarian. And while not everyone pushing these rules on the rest of us does so with malice or ill intent, it’s important to remember the road to hell is always paved with good intentions.

But as you said, off topic enough. I hope nobody takes offense to the views I’ve shared. But know that I am always open to change my mind if the evidence can be presented that my beliefs are in error.

@JaxonH Listening to only the "sane" doesn't sound much better than what you're complaining about by taking enormously complex issues and then branding them with only two values whilst ignoring the nuances and components which make them up. Even sane isn't a consistent value, for example it's still in living memory gay people were considered insane which was punishable by castration including note worthy people like Alan Turing (the father of modern computers and WW2 hero) plus there are still things like "pray the gay away" camps in operation today.

Even one of the subjects you brought up like property rights isn't as clean cut since America largely stole the land from Native Americans in the first place, for example Mount Rushmore the "Shrine of Democracy" had a treaty signed saying it belonged to them but then US government illegally took it back anyway and even the US Supreme Court ruled in favor of the of Great Sioux Nation but its still isn't in their ownership