@PlywoodStick I watched a BBC3 programme (now on youtube) - the Virtual Reality Virgin although maybe NSFW - 'Tyger Drew-Honey has never really experienced virtual reality. But all that is about to change. With high-spec virtual reality headsets expected to become widely available within the next few months, Tyger explores how they could change everything - from how we meet up with our friends to the way we have sex.'
It does touch on gaming of course but also explores the wider application of VR inc Porn and why that may be a bigger demand for PC owners...
Its certainly an interesting watch. I thought VR may be just a 'gaming' fad - like light guns, dance mats etc but it looks like it could be here to stay this time around because of the wider application.
@PlywoodStick AMD's Polaris s aimed at the mid/lower end with its initial release. Its high end GPU's are likely to be called 'Vega' and expected at the end of 2016/early 2017 with 'Navi' following on in 2018.
Polaris is certainly targeting volume and are hoping that they can achieve this by targeting consoles, laptops/notebooks etc - the most popular sources of gaming and entertainment. According to AMD, very few people have a PC that can meet VR specs or buy graphics cards. Its only a dedicated few (comparatively) who do buy cards. By making Polaris more affordable and available in a wider range of devices, AMD are hoping to capture more than just the gaming market but also anyone who is interested in VR - it does have uses outside of gaming - education, social and no doubt the 'porn' market too.
If you read what the aim of Polaris is - to bring fluid graphics/performance, VR and multi-media to small form devices, and console gaming performance to laptops. This sounds perfect for consoles. Its opting to use Samsung chips and the FinFET architecture means these can be clocked 65% faster or be around 70% more efficient. Obviously if you clock it up, you lose that power efficiency - you can't have both. I expect though, people will find a balance to suit them - Maybe raise the clock speed by 45% and save 20% or so power - That extra processing speed could mean less shaders and therefore less memory bandwidth
This is quite an interesting video explaining how the new architecture and size could be optimised to match a 980 ti or at least a 980 from such a small GPU.
To me it makes sense for Microsoft to drop nVidia. There is no doubt that nVidia are a very big name but pound for pound, there performance isn't the best. Using nVidia could well of added to the overall cost of the console.
I do think that MS could release a 'new' console. With its Win10/UWP focus, a new console is likely to play any Xbox game. The way they are trying to tie all their devices together, I would expect that a new console wouldn't split the user base - 360 games would be playable with 360 and XB1 owners, party chat available across all devices etc. It could even use Oculus Rift as its form of VR too - the XB1 has no chance with its GPU.
It would make sense to use Polaris in the NX and PS4. Its certainly the next generation of GPU's and if Nintendo keep things 'relatively' simple in its architecture, the NX could get 3td Party games in exactly the same way that XB and PS do now. Whether that's important to Nintendo, I don't know. They seem happy to branch off and be more of a 'niche' and individual product rather than trying to compete head-on with MS and Sony.
Obviously the benefits to Sony are clear. Its trying to launch its own VR headset and I do feel its PS4 is unlikely to compete with Oculus because of the hardware. It may be OK for walking Sims, on rails shooters, single enemy sword fighting games, basic puzzlers etc. RIGS is a 'small 3v3 arena' game - static maps and doesn't have big draw distances but I have heard that it does have a bit of movement lag and the frame rate drops - although its still got a few months to optimise it. I can't see it coping with something like CoD's 6v6 (or 9v9) bigger maps. Even if you have little interest in VR, Sony would still like to sell the console to you so adding 4k support will appeal to the growing 4k TV owners. As I said the extra power is still unlikely to run games at 4k but could see games at 1440 - something a 4K TV would see the benefits of.
I don't think MS or Sony had much choice but to release their gen 8 consoles when they did. The gen 7 consoles wouldn't (and haven't lasted) another 2 years but the hardware and technical advancements weren't ready or affordable either. Now they are in another difficult position, struggle for the next couple of years and release their 'next' gen or release a new console and annoy their fans - especially late adopters. I don't know if you own either but its very difficult to see them last 4-5yrs (30months until the next release and 2 years transition afterwards).
Nintendo are in a better position. Its games tend to be first party anyway and the Wii U has been out longer too. Its only 'competing' with its self and created that 'niche'. It appeals to PS an XB owners because its different where as PS and XB are very similar. Maybe by using Polaris it could get a lot of the multi-plat releases and still keep its niche because of the first party software and some innovative and 'unique' feature - typical of Nintendo.
@rjejr I think if Nintendo do use the Polaris (or something similar), I can see it getting a lot more 3rd Party support and not 'poor' ports either. I could see Nintendo doing something 'unique' - like bringing out a controller that doubles up as a DS/Gameboy. A slot in it to play handheld games on the go and maybe stream these to the big screen or as a controller with touch screen (like the Wii U's).
@PlywoodStick I am not familiar with ALL the nVidia cards, However when put up against the GTX 950 in a public demo, both running Star Wars BF at 1080/60, the Nvidia GTX 950 system used 63-74% more power to deliver the same performance. It has a much better performance per watt ratio. Whether the R9 290 is 'old hat' or not, its still the minimum standard required for VR and so the Polaris is looking to at least equal if not better that in a more power efficient way. Its also a lot better than the Radeon 7000 series - the basis for the current GPU's in the next gen consoles.
As far as I know, the R9 290x is equivalent to the Geforce 970 as that's the minimum spec required to run Oculus at 2K, 90fps - the minimum target point for Polaris and designed to fit small form devices. Its GPU size is a lot smaller and can have a higher clock speed than equivalent 28nm GPU's.
Its expected to deliver around double the TFLOPs of the current PS4 GPU whilst having a better efficiency. It may not match something like the 980 but considering this is likely to be used in Consoles, its still a fairly large step up. According to bench tests the 14nm FinFet chip delivers a 2.5x perf per watt.
Obviously this speculation as Polaris isn't expected to launch until mid 2016 to the public. Console manufacturers also haven't mentioned any of the 'specs' or in Sony's case even addressed the rumour. A lot of people are putting 2 and 2 together - the rumoured PS4k, the double GPU capabilities, AMD's upcoming Polaris GPU and expected 'price point' and putting it all together. AMD is well known for delivering an affordable solution and theit products do feature in consoles. Pound for Pound AMD do tend to deliver the best. I know the 980 ti maybe 30% faster but its double the cost.
Until we get an official announcement and 'specs' this is pure speculation. Like I said above, I still don't expect 'native' 4K in AAA gaming. I do think it 'could' hit 1440p though which would still require a 4k TV to take advantage of.
Looking at something like the Last of Us or Nathan Drake collection - both of which run at 1080/60, if you double that (because you have double the power), that means 1440/60. If you half the framerate and double the resolution, you could theoretically get 4k/30. Uncharted 4 (and many of this gen games) run at 1080/30 so the best you could expect is 1440/30 and still be playable. You could of course boost the frame rate to get 60fps. Considering a lot of games run at 1080/30 (Division, Dark Souls 3, Witcher 3 etc), these could match the PC standard of 1080/60.
I am sorry this is quite lengthy and barely mentions Nintendo. I haven't owned a Nintendo since the Wii and therefore don't feel I am best placed to discuss them. I am very interested to see the 'NX' and what games it will have.
@rjejr This is my first visit to this site but as its part of the 'family' I can comment.
I don't know who Nintendo use for their GPU/CPU's and won't comment about them as its not right for me without any knowledge. I know that both the XB1 and PS4 though use AMD CPU and GPU - both of which are roughly equivalent to 5-6yr old technology.
AMD are bringing out a new GPU and CPU based around Samsungs 14nm FinFET chip. Chips designed on the process be it GPUs or otherwise can reach much higher clock speeds versus 28nm (the chip found in current consoles). 14nm FinFET transistors are also drastically more power efficient than 28nm. Resulting in chips that are not only faster but also consume a lot less power than before.
AMD are due to bring out the Polaris GPU this year (which uses the 14nm chip). According to AMD:- "AMD’s Polaris architecture-based 14nm FinFET GPUs deliver a remarkable generational jump in power efficiency. Polaris-based GPUs are designed for fluid frame rates in graphics, gaming, VR and multimedia applications running on compelling small form-factor thin and light computer designs"
This makes it perfect for consoles. The Polaris is at least as powerful as the R9 290 GPU. This is significant as its the minimum spec GPU required to run VR (like Oculus Rift) headsets. Its goal is also to make that minimum spec a lot more affordable for the masses. The R9 is around $350 and Polaris is likely to be around the $250. Whilst that sounds a lot, we have to remember that that price is 'retail'. Console manufacturers will probably pay 'cost' + up to a $1 per unit if the bulk buy and we know they have a 'relationship' with AMD.
It also has the addition of support for DisplayPort 1.3 and HDMI 2.0a in addition to h.265 decode at up to 4K and encode at 4K and 60 FPS. Whilst I don't think we will AAA games running at 4K on console, we could see a higher than 1080p resolution - maybe 1440p (effectively double the pixel count of 1080p). Just because its not native 4K, you would still get a better picture on 4K TV sets. This is not that 'different' in essence from having games running at 900p on a 1080p TV.
As you know from PushSquare, I can see both the PS4k and possibly NX (like I said I don't know what relationship Nintendo have with AMD) using the Polaris GPU. It certainly fits with the rumoured double the current PS4 GPU and designed with VR very much in mind - something that is important too Sony at the moment. I can see MS using it too and with its UWP/win10 across all platforms, I think they would more likely introduce a 'new' console rather than an 'intermediate' one like Sony appear to be doing. It could theoretically use Oculus for a VR experience too. With that win10/UWP it wouldn't fracture the user base as owners 'could' play any Xbox game and online together - maybe with PC gamers too.
I can't see the current gen of consoles lasting another 2years, let alone another 2years or so beyond that as people 'transition' to Gen 9.
Its certainly going to be an interesting E3 and I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see all console manufacturers talk about their 'next' console - even if they ae denying or refusing to comment on rumours at the moment.
Comments 5
Re: AMD Earnings Call Says "New Consoles" Are Launching Later This Year
@PlywoodStick I watched a BBC3 programme (now on youtube) - the Virtual Reality Virgin although maybe NSFW - 'Tyger Drew-Honey has never really experienced virtual reality. But all that is about to change. With high-spec virtual reality headsets expected to become widely available within the next few months, Tyger explores how they could change everything - from how we meet up with our friends to the way we have sex.'
It does touch on gaming of course but also explores the wider application of VR inc Porn and why that may be a bigger demand for PC owners...
Its certainly an interesting watch. I thought VR may be just a 'gaming' fad - like light guns, dance mats etc but it looks like it could be here to stay this time around because of the wider application.
Re: AMD Earnings Call Says "New Consoles" Are Launching Later This Year
@PlywoodStick AMD's Polaris s aimed at the mid/lower end with its initial release. Its high end GPU's are likely to be called 'Vega' and expected at the end of 2016/early 2017 with 'Navi' following on in 2018.
Polaris is certainly targeting volume and are hoping that they can achieve this by targeting consoles, laptops/notebooks etc - the most popular sources of gaming and entertainment. According to AMD, very few people have a PC that can meet VR specs or buy graphics cards. Its only a dedicated few (comparatively) who do buy cards. By making Polaris more affordable and available in a wider range of devices, AMD are hoping to capture more than just the gaming market but also anyone who is interested in VR - it does have uses outside of gaming - education, social and no doubt the 'porn' market too.
If you read what the aim of Polaris is - to bring fluid graphics/performance, VR and multi-media to small form devices, and console gaming performance to laptops. This sounds perfect for consoles. Its opting to use Samsung chips and the FinFET architecture means these can be clocked 65% faster or be around 70% more efficient. Obviously if you clock it up, you lose that power efficiency - you can't have both. I expect though, people will find a balance to suit them - Maybe raise the clock speed by 45% and save 20% or so power - That extra processing speed could mean less shaders and therefore less memory bandwidth
This is quite an interesting video explaining how the new architecture and size could be optimised to match a 980 ti or at least a 980 from such a small GPU.
To me it makes sense for Microsoft to drop nVidia. There is no doubt that nVidia are a very big name but pound for pound, there performance isn't the best. Using nVidia could well of added to the overall cost of the console.
I do think that MS could release a 'new' console. With its Win10/UWP focus, a new console is likely to play any Xbox game. The way they are trying to tie all their devices together, I would expect that a new console wouldn't split the user base - 360 games would be playable with 360 and XB1 owners, party chat available across all devices etc. It could even use Oculus Rift as its form of VR too - the XB1 has no chance with its GPU.
It would make sense to use Polaris in the NX and PS4. Its certainly the next generation of GPU's and if Nintendo keep things 'relatively' simple in its architecture, the NX could get 3td Party games in exactly the same way that XB and PS do now. Whether that's important to Nintendo, I don't know. They seem happy to branch off and be more of a 'niche' and individual product rather than trying to compete head-on with MS and Sony.
Obviously the benefits to Sony are clear. Its trying to launch its own VR headset and I do feel its PS4 is unlikely to compete with Oculus because of the hardware. It may be OK for walking Sims, on rails shooters, single enemy sword fighting games, basic puzzlers etc. RIGS is a 'small 3v3 arena' game - static maps and doesn't have big draw distances but I have heard that it does have a bit of movement lag and the frame rate drops - although its still got a few months to optimise it. I can't see it coping with something like CoD's 6v6 (or 9v9) bigger maps. Even if you have little interest in VR, Sony would still like to sell the console to you so adding 4k support will appeal to the growing 4k TV owners. As I said the extra power is still unlikely to run games at 4k but could see games at 1440 - something a 4K TV would see the benefits of.
I don't think MS or Sony had much choice but to release their gen 8 consoles when they did. The gen 7 consoles wouldn't (and haven't lasted) another 2 years but the hardware and technical advancements weren't ready or affordable either. Now they are in another difficult position, struggle for the next couple of years and release their 'next' gen or release a new console and annoy their fans - especially late adopters. I don't know if you own either but its very difficult to see them last 4-5yrs (30months until the next release and 2 years transition afterwards).
Nintendo are in a better position. Its games tend to be first party anyway and the Wii U has been out longer too. Its only 'competing' with its self and created that 'niche'. It appeals to PS an XB owners because its different where as PS and XB are very similar. Maybe by using Polaris it could get a lot of the multi-plat releases and still keep its niche because of the first party software and some innovative and 'unique' feature - typical of Nintendo.
Re: AMD Earnings Call Says "New Consoles" Are Launching Later This Year
@rjejr I think if Nintendo do use the Polaris (or something similar), I can see it getting a lot more 3rd Party support and not 'poor' ports either. I could see Nintendo doing something 'unique' - like bringing out a controller that doubles up as a DS/Gameboy. A slot in it to play handheld games on the go and maybe stream these to the big screen or as a controller with touch screen (like the Wii U's).
Re: AMD Earnings Call Says "New Consoles" Are Launching Later This Year
@PlywoodStick I am not familiar with ALL the nVidia cards, However when put up against the GTX 950 in a public demo, both running Star Wars BF at 1080/60, the Nvidia GTX 950 system used 63-74% more power to deliver the same performance. It has a much better performance per watt ratio.
Whether the R9 290 is 'old hat' or not, its still the minimum standard required for VR and so the Polaris is looking to at least equal if not better that in a more power efficient way. Its also a lot better than the Radeon 7000 series - the basis for the current GPU's in the next gen consoles.
As far as I know, the R9 290x is equivalent to the Geforce 970 as that's the minimum spec required to run Oculus at 2K, 90fps - the minimum target point for Polaris and designed to fit small form devices. Its GPU size is a lot smaller and can have a higher clock speed than equivalent 28nm GPU's.
Its expected to deliver around double the TFLOPs of the current PS4 GPU whilst having a better efficiency. It may not match something like the 980 but considering this is likely to be used in Consoles, its still a fairly large step up. According to bench tests the 14nm FinFet chip delivers a 2.5x perf per watt.
Obviously this speculation as Polaris isn't expected to launch until mid 2016 to the public. Console manufacturers also haven't mentioned any of the 'specs' or in Sony's case even addressed the rumour. A lot of people are putting 2 and 2 together - the rumoured PS4k, the double GPU capabilities, AMD's upcoming Polaris GPU and expected 'price point' and putting it all together. AMD is well known for delivering an affordable solution and theit products do feature in consoles. Pound for Pound AMD do tend to deliver the best. I know the 980 ti maybe 30% faster but its double the cost.
Until we get an official announcement and 'specs' this is pure speculation. Like I said above, I still don't expect 'native' 4K in AAA gaming. I do think it 'could' hit 1440p though which would still require a 4k TV to take advantage of.
Looking at something like the Last of Us or Nathan Drake collection - both of which run at 1080/60, if you double that (because you have double the power), that means 1440/60. If you half the framerate and double the resolution, you could theoretically get 4k/30. Uncharted 4 (and many of this gen games) run at 1080/30 so the best you could expect is 1440/30 and still be playable. You could of course boost the frame rate to get 60fps. Considering a lot of games run at 1080/30 (Division, Dark Souls 3, Witcher 3 etc), these could match the PC standard of 1080/60.
I am sorry this is quite lengthy and barely mentions Nintendo. I haven't owned a Nintendo since the Wii and therefore don't feel I am best placed to discuss them. I am very interested to see the 'NX' and what games it will have.
Re: AMD Earnings Call Says "New Consoles" Are Launching Later This Year
@rjejr This is my first visit to this site but as its part of the 'family' I can comment.
I don't know who Nintendo use for their GPU/CPU's and won't comment about them as its not right for me without any knowledge. I know that both the XB1 and PS4 though use AMD CPU and GPU - both of which are roughly equivalent to 5-6yr old technology.
AMD are bringing out a new GPU and CPU based around Samsungs 14nm FinFET chip. Chips designed on the process be it GPUs or otherwise can reach much higher clock speeds versus 28nm (the chip found in current consoles). 14nm FinFET transistors are also drastically more power efficient than 28nm. Resulting in chips that are not only faster but also consume a lot less power than before.
AMD are due to bring out the Polaris GPU this year (which uses the 14nm chip). According to AMD:- "AMD’s Polaris architecture-based 14nm FinFET GPUs deliver a remarkable generational jump in power efficiency. Polaris-based GPUs are designed for fluid frame rates in graphics, gaming, VR and multimedia applications running on compelling small form-factor thin and light computer designs"
This makes it perfect for consoles. The Polaris is at least as powerful as the R9 290 GPU. This is significant as its the minimum spec GPU required to run VR (like Oculus Rift) headsets. Its goal is also to make that minimum spec a lot more affordable for the masses. The R9 is around $350 and Polaris is likely to be around the $250. Whilst that sounds a lot, we have to remember that that price is 'retail'. Console manufacturers will probably pay 'cost' + up to a $1 per unit if the bulk buy and we know they have a 'relationship' with AMD.
It also has the addition of support for DisplayPort 1.3 and HDMI 2.0a in addition to h.265 decode at up to 4K and encode at 4K and 60 FPS. Whilst I don't think we will AAA games running at 4K on console, we could see a higher than 1080p resolution - maybe 1440p (effectively double the pixel count of 1080p). Just because its not native 4K, you would still get a better picture on 4K TV sets. This is not that 'different' in essence from having games running at 900p on a 1080p TV.
As you know from PushSquare, I can see both the PS4k and possibly NX (like I said I don't know what relationship Nintendo have with AMD) using the Polaris GPU. It certainly fits with the rumoured double the current PS4 GPU and designed with VR very much in mind - something that is important too Sony at the moment. I can see MS using it too and with its UWP/win10 across all platforms, I think they would more likely introduce a 'new' console rather than an 'intermediate' one like Sony appear to be doing. It could theoretically use Oculus for a VR experience too. With that win10/UWP it wouldn't fracture the user base as owners 'could' play any Xbox game and online together - maybe with PC gamers too.
I can't see the current gen of consoles lasting another 2years, let alone another 2years or so beyond that as people 'transition' to Gen 9.
Its certainly going to be an interesting E3 and I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see all console manufacturers talk about their 'next' console - even if they ae denying or refusing to comment on rumours at the moment.