Topic: The Nintendo Switch Rumor and Speculation Thread

Someone has also already made a mod for it that allows it to run at 60fps. Which to me suggests that the game is written in such a way that it's flexible with the framerate, which doesn't sound like much but it's not something that's always guaranteed. Plenty of games when you try to run at higher framerates than the original hardware supported it'll break stuff like cutscenes....

Yet more weight to the idea that TTYD possibly supports a "Switch 2 mode" out of the box

@skywake You love to see it!

Seems pretty cut and dry.

Nintendo would have been well aware someone was going to find that, so I also view this as a relatively subtle advertisement for Switch 2. Pretty cool!

Sorry but... I know this is decompiled so it's not really readable but....
I have to do this for my own sanity....

v8 = *(_QWORD *)(a1 + 12384);
if ( *(_DWORD *)(a1+12424) == 3840 && *(_DWORD *)(a1+12428) == 2160)
{
v9 = 2160LL;
v10 = 3840LL;
return;
}
if (*v2)
{
v9 = 1080LL;
v10 = 1920LL;
return;
}

v9 = 720LL;
v10 = 1280LL;
return;

Oh boy. Midori, everyone’s favorite SEGA and Atlus leaker is claiming to have two Mario game’s codenames. Those being SPRed (in development), and more interestingly, SilverStar, which “was a project”. RedStar was Odyssey’s code name, so take of all those what you will.

Personally, I am kinda concerned hearing the words “was a project” next to a codename that is pretty similar to Odyssey. If it’s possible DLC or a direct sequel that just couldn’t get off the ground internally, I would be extremely disappointed we never got more odyssey.

As for Midori, this might be the end for them if it’s legit. Leaking Nintendo is always flying to close to the sun for leakers like this.

@NarwhalKing Games get cancelled all the time. Nothing to be concerned about lol. Besides, 'was' could also mean it's finished and Nintendo are sitting on it waiting for it's position in the road map.

@GrailUK I know the opinion on Odyssey has become more divisive over time, but for me personally, I really really hope it’s not cancelled. It’s my third favorite game of all time and I’d be beyond happy to see Mario stick with the format and formula it did. Even if it wasn’t called Odyssey 2, if it kept the same structure of kingdoms and captures, I would be so happy.

@NarwhalKing I trust Nintendo, so if they have a different idea for the next 3D Mariogame, I'm sure it will be for a good reason

SPRed is likely the next Mainline Mario game.

SilverStar was likely a canceled side game based off of Mario Odyssey.

-

Also I’m all for a TTYD upgrade. Playing the game right now and it looks great (definitely some of the best graphics on Switch), but looking even better is also welcome!

I figured I'd do another graph run because I think there's still some misunderstandings about how the maths of DLSS works in terms of how it interacts with framerates. Lets start with a few key assumptions:
1. The Switch 2 can natively render at 4X the rate of the Switch
2. The Switch 2 has a DLSS implementation that takes 20ms to output a 4K image
3. Render performance scales linearly based on the number of total pixels rendered
4. DLSS performance scales linearly based on the number of total pixels output

Are these foolproof assumptions? No. There are various bottlenecks in computing so things don't scale with power linearly like this. But as a guestimate they get us in the same ballpark and short of actually benchmarking hardware that doesn't exist it's the best we have. Plus as a model I think this is good enough to illustrate the point. Ok, so lets start with "game that renders at 900p/30fps on Switch" i.e. BotW/TotK/TTYD

So how to read this. The two axis are just the output resolution and framerate, basically what you get as the end result. The coloured lines are the different internal DLSS render resolutions. Then the black line is the native output of this "Switch 2".

Basically, when the black line is above the coloured line you are getting nothing from DLSS i.e. at 1080p we have DLSS with an internal render resolution of 1080p giving us ~60fps while native 1080p is closer to ~80fps. Which, you know, makes sense because using DLSS to upscale 1080p to 1080p is obviously dumb. When its the other way around? Well, when the black line is bellow the coloured line DLSS is worth it i.e. at 4K on this graph we get 20fps native but with DLSS if we wanted 4K we could render internally at 720p/1080p and get above 30fps

Now with this specific example? 4K doesn't really seem worth it. And I would argue if there's a ~20ms cost to DLSS at 4K it's just generally not worth it ever. Because what you could far more comfortably do here is go for a 720p internal render with a 1440p DLSS output and sit above 60fps. Which I expect is what they'd do here

But moving on, more scenarios, what about the "Super Mario Wonder" scenario? A game that already on Switch maxes out the resolution and framerate. Scaled up 4X to "Switch 2", how does that look? Surely here we can do 4K via DLSS right?

Well, technically yes..... but also no. You could do 4K via DLSS here but you could also just do 4K native here, and at a higher framerate than you'd get via the DLSS route. I fully expect these kinds of games to exist on the Switch 2 and I think if and when we see 4K it'll be in scenarios like this.

Ok, so last graph. Lets go all the way to the other extreme. Lets for arguments sake say there is a game on Switch 2 that on Switch 2 runs at 640p/30fps. Impossible port, Switch 2 edition. How would that look on this graph? Well.... lets first change the scale so we only go upto 60fps

I think here is where we start to see the value of DLSS. Of course in this scenario we can't hit 640p/30fps so in order to get above 30fps we have to have an internal render resolution bellow 640p. But, if we have our internal render resolution at 480p? We can upscale to 1080p and be comfortably above 30fps

.... and that's how it works. It's not magic, it's not free frames. It's a fixed cost that you add ontop of the time it takes to render the frame. If the time it's taking to render the frame is high? DLSS can give you extra pixels for relatively cheap. If the time it's taking to render a frame is low? DLSS is of little value because, well, you're already getting frames for cheap

@skywake Would it be fair to say Nintendo could create a game on Switch 1, then use the extra stuff in Switch 2 to upscale it. That's gotta be the most economically viable way of looking after 140M users whilst selling a new console. Certainly less cost restrictive than creting somthing on Switch 2 then making it fit Switch.

@GrailUK
I think there are three main paths in terms of performance targets for Switch/Switch 2 here and they broadly align with the above three graphs I posted coincidentally:

1. Blow past the Switch spec. Multiplatform releases that generally built for a PS5, scaled down to Switch 2. Presumably fairly intense games that are going to struggle to hit 30fps at 1080p native but you could use DLSS to either lock 30fps/1080p or push to something like 60fps/720p

2. Target the Switch spec. Go for something that will stretch the original Switch spec i.e. something that the Switch would at most just barely run at something like 720p/30fps. Then release on Switch at that target but also on Switch 2 at a portable 1080p/60fps native and docked DLSS assisted 1440p/60fps

3. The game doesn't need it. Switch is more than enough for your game anyways, it's a 2D platformer or some kind of retro style indie release. Just put it out on the Switch and let BC handle it. Maybe throw in a high resolution mode that allows 4K output on Switch 2

edit: I realised I didn't really answer your question. Hmm. Basically, the big titles that Nintendo wants to use to show off or that can take advantage of the improved specs and will sell enough on Switch 2 to justify any expense? Switch 2 only. Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, 3D Mario, Splatoon, Pikmin. I'd also throw something like Hyrule Warriors in here purely because it could do with the additional hardware. I'd expect something along the lines of a 1080p/60fps lock, possibly pushing to 1440p in some cases, possibly DLSS assisted

The games that don't really need the additional power but can reasonably use it? A bit more in the middle. Here we're talking stuff like GC remasters and the 2D titles that do all the shiny things like Super Mario RPG or Link's Awakening HD. I'd also throw in here Metroid Prime purely because it's not a title that will move hardware. It's better straddling both generations. In terms of performance, same again, 1080p/60fps lock, possibly pushing to 1440p in some cases, possibly DLSS assisted

Then lastly there's the easy stuff. Generally anything Nintendo release on Switch right now and we'd just assume it goes 1080p/60fps. WarioWare, Mario Party, Switch Sports Resort if that ever happens. I'd expect those games to probably just be Switch games that have a "if on Switch 2 go 4K" flag somewhere

@skywake Yeah, I would have thought if Nintendo are to be as prolific as they are, they will still make smaller titles at home on Switch that could look great in 4K. (Like all the 'This is what <insert game here> looks like at 4K thanks to modders' articles.) Seems they have shown there is an audience / market for that process.

I think Nintendo will naturally make a lot of games which simply don't need Switch 2 plus some which run fine on Switch but would be improved in Switch 2. Between those categories, I think Nintendo will be pretty prolific for Switch 1 for awhile still.

Lets think of the games this year:

Another Code - No real reason for more power but maybe could have higher resolution version?

Mario vs DK - same as above

Peach - pieces of it definitely could have looked or run better on a Switch 2 version

Endless Ocean - Switch 2 improvements could have been OP for this game since it is all about graphics

Paper Mario - already looks beautiful, you would get 60 fps

Luigi - ??

Nintendo World Championship — clearly doesn't care which console

Will Switch’s successor use ray-tracing? I remember people saying TTYD looks like it uses ray-tracing which led to speculation about the successor. Is this likely?

@FishyS It would be a sad sad day if Nintendo went all in on AAA experiences (christ, that expression still makes me vomit! It's so corporate buzz wordy.)

Unrelated to an extent but Midori is Japanese for Green. I know this because one of my OCs is named Dori, which is short for Midori, and yeah, I don't know why I bothered saying this lol.

@CaleBoi25 I wonder if Midori goes by this name because she gives Atlus/Sega news and rumors, and Persona 6’s color theme is rumored to be Green, since each persona game has a color theme (P5 was Red, P4 was yellow, P3 was blue, etc)

(Oh yeah, atlus is the persona publisher, meant to include that)

@skywake It's true that the simple ratio between resolution and frames renders DLSS less vital and more supplemental, but what about adding in other features, like ray tracing?

@Ulysses
Ray Tracing is just another feature they can add. In terms of the discussion around performance it's not really that much different to having more RAM that allows higher resolution assets

Also my point wasn't to say DLSS isn't important. It is. I just think people are both underestimating the number of games that could hit 4K natively and overestimating the resolution that DLSS will be useful at. DLSS will be hugely important.... in getting very demanding games upto a full 1080p output