Compact discs might not be considered new technology these days, but when they were first released they were marketed as practically indestructible. Compared to the two other audio storage mediums of the time - cassette tape and vinyl - that certainly seemed to be a easy claim to make. CDs later became a popular storage medium for video games as well, thanks to their low cost and large capacity.
Back in the mid-'90s, Nintendo caused quite a stir when it decided against using CDs on its Nintendo 64 system and stuck with expensive and (in comparison) lower-capacity cartridges; its two big rivals, the Sony PlayStation and Sega Saturn, both used CDs. Nintendo's choice cost it dearly, with many of its previously loyal third-party supporters ignoring the N64 in favour of the PlayStation, but from a retro collector's perspective we should perhaps be thankful that Nintendo was so stubborn - because there's now overwhelmingly compelling evidence which suggests optical media isn't quite as robust as we've been led to believe all these years.
An excellent feature on the phenomenon of "disc rot" has recently been published on Tedium, and is well worth a read. We'll attempt to summarise here, but the long of short of it is that CDs - and most other forms of optical media - have much shorter lifespans than previously assumed.
When CDs were first released it was estimated that they would last a lifetime - some brands even claimed over 100 years of service - but in recent years many collectors have begun to discover that CDs that are less than 30 years old are now useless.
So what is disc rot? Well, for starters, it's not really "rot" - what's happening is that the chemicals used in the disc's protective layers have failed over time. Another cause is the oxidation of the disc's reflective layer, usually made of aluminum. In some cases, the discs begins to "bronze" over; in others, small dots appear which grow in size as the layers inside the disc break down. As you can imagine, disc rot presents a massive problem not only for collectors, but for those people whose job it is to archive important or historical data; many institutions use CDs and DVDs for storing large amounts of information, and the terrifying reality is that these discs could become unreadable in quite a short space of time.
We'll let blogger "slackur" (also known as "Jesse Mysterious") explain this harrowing phenomenon in relation to video games - they wrote this post back in 2010:
Even though it is only one little dot, it represents damage that cannot be repaired. No scratch removal process can restore the data that is now lost. The game is forever damaged, and likely to get worse over the years.
Now, many sources online will claim that disc rot is a limited-scope problem, concerning only a few years worth of discs from certain manufacturers, (and CD-Rs) and that it is not wide-spread.
But when I learned about this problem, I checked my several hundred discs between Sega CD, Turbo CD, Saturn, and even Dreamcast games and found DOZENS had this problem. Several expensive games I owned were mint—except when held to the light I could see one or more little white dots that proved my game had damage. Some of these I went back to play after not touching for years and found they now would occasionally lock up or not play at all. I had a few FACTORY SEALED games that I opened and found the same thing.
It has been a nerve-shattering nightmare for a collector like me.
From a gaming perspective, slackur's blog post above sums it up quite neatly. While music CDs and DVDs vary in value, no entertainment sector has quite the same inflated prices as the world of video games. Certain titles fall out of print and end up being worth hundreds - if not thousands - of dollars on the secondary market, and the thought of those games becoming totally unplayable over time is sure to send many a collector into a spin; some may already be losing a fortune as we speak.
Which brings us back to the N64. Cartridges are traditionally quite robust - hence the fact that people are still happily playing Atari VCS and NES games on original hardware - so N64 games should continue to be playable for quite some time yet. However, if slackur's observations are correct - and let's not forget those comments about Dreamcast games suffering from disc rot were written seven years ago - then that super-expensive copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga you have sitting proudly on your shelf could well be coming up to its expiry date, if it hasn't reached it already. This situation also reinforces the need for video game preservation and - for once - gives a solid argument for emulation. Without it, we could stand to lose many video games for which the original code no longer exists; the aforementioned Panzer Dragoon Saga is apparently one such title.
So when you go to bed tonight, remember to give your N64 collection a little cuddle and thank Nintendo for digging its heels in back in the '90s.
[source tedium.co]
Comments (119)
I have always defended emulation as preservation and not blatant piracy because of stuff like this. People sometimes just don't seem to care for something that it was made before they were born and have no prior experience of it, without understanding the importance of it all. Since publishers and developers are often the first to not properly secure their own code I am very glad that there are people out there dedicating their whole free time preserving every game on every system out there. My grandchildren will thank them.
Gosh...!
Is that you PS1 CD ?
Disc rot is the biggest nightmare for game collector.
I wonder what will happen to PS1 discs on Ebay (still kept inside, waiting to be sold)...
I wonder what this means for the Gamecube, Wii and Wii U?
Great article!
That is alarming. I wonder how Gamecube, Wii and Wii U discs will fare. Hoping their proprietary nature means higher quality and less susceptible to disc rot.
I'll believe this is something to worry about when I see it. Never encountered a single example.
@Grandpa_Pixel
Means my GameCube, Wii and Wii U collection's days are numbered.
I backed up my collection of GC/Wii onto a 512gb SD card on my Wii U, but I never got around to modding it for actual Wii U games. I need to do that, before my discs become unreadable one day.
I can't lose my collection... I don't care if they rot as long as I have backup digitally
If you have the means to, you might want to consider making backups of old games in case this happens... as long as you have a legally purchased copy, you can legally make copies as long as they are only for personal use.
Older discs are the most at risk, so I've only ever done this with PS1 games myself... but it's worth doing, as this isn't the only way a disc could be damaged.
Disc rot doesn't happen unless you keep them in an area that has moisture. Attics and basements are the worst to keep anything, and discs are not the only thing that can get affected by that...cartridges can easily collect dirt that can ruin them, and moisture in cartridges can hurt them too, so this basically means nothing. In the end, it all comes down to how people take care of them...including stores that sell them. I have a few Genesis and Super NES games that don't even work anymore, no matter how many times they are cleaned. As to what everyone is worried about...Gamecube should be fine as long as you are taking care of them...I have a Gamecube library of over 160 games...my PS2 and games were also in a storage container for many years before we moved...all of which still work, including the consoles...but I also clean my discs, games and systems regularly...that's one way for keeping them in good condition.
Are newer discs just as prone to disc rot as older discs?
Just store them properly and they should be fine.
I had cartridge rot on my snes game street fighter 2 turbo, no matter how much I cleaned it, it still didn't work.
Future proof your collection. Backup all your games.
@JLPick Excuse my lack of knowledge (I am a beginner collector) but I put my games in seal-able plastic bags and the bags are put into black plastic boxes which are confirmed by the manufacturer to be UV resistant and are kept in my room upstairs.
Do you think they will be safe there? Also any tips on cleaning the discs? I already use isopropyl alcohol for cleaning my cartridge contacts
@MetaRyan Yes they are, I've lost 3 Xbox 360 games in the past couple years to disc rot. Battlefield: Bad Company, Kameo and Call of Duty 3 all had the problem which made the discs unplayable :/
This is why I like the Switch using good ol' cartridges. And they're really compact to, which makes them a lot easier to carry around and keep around.
I bought the Spiderman triology on Blu-ray when it came out, say 2007-ish. I saw the first one and didn't like it and a year or two ago I decided to watch Spidermand 2. Guess what? Didn't play, neither did the other two discs. I have DVDs from 97 that still play so it's not that and everything has been on a bedroom shelf.
I would have contacted Sony Pictures Home Entertainment for a replacement but it's seemingly impossible.
Disc rot is definitely a threat, but it's an exaggerated one. If you make sure that you keep your games out of the sun and out of high humidity or extreme temperatures, it's not likely to be a major concern any time soon.
Well, then. Guess I'd better back up my music collection before long.
Interesting! Does disk rot affect blu rays?
Emulation isn't so much what preserves those games. Game backups are what preserves those. That's why it's important to keep copies of precious pieces of history before they're gone forever or, in the world of modern information, modified so that it makes it appear to the masses as if the original never existed. History is so easy to temper with these days, as we rely more and more on digitally stored info rather than on paper (which itself degrades over time too naturally).
If Nintendo's use of a rom of Super Mario Bros. containing a header indicative that it was downloaded from the Internet is any indication, websites that host hundreds of backups are preserving a history that apparently Nintendo isn't preserving properly in-house.
@123akis It affects ALL types of disc based media. Each and every one of them. Blu Ray is just perhaps too recent for many of them to already have disc rot. Dreamcast games that are 7 years old which already have disc rot are indie games that came on independently pressed discs that don't come from Sega and likely were of cheaper quality (quality does affect how fast they rot, but good quality doesn't guarantee it to never happen either).
Sure... okay. But PS1 will forever have a superior software library to the N64, this doesn't change that fact.
@Shiryu when you getting married?
They need to manufacture disc rot proof discs if such technology even exists.
@Grandpa_Pixel The bags should keep them fine. The only thing that can really damage discs (besides the normal scratch and tear) is the moisture in rooms, but I've never had the problem like this article has suggested, but it can happen. Even the cartridges can get like that. For cleaning, what you are doing, is great! If they get scratches that disrupt them, what I was told by some of the disc makers (Sony and others) was to use a small bit of furniture polish, wipe it in...let it sit for a few minutes, and then rub it away with a micro-fiber cloth. The micro-fiber cloths are the only thing that should be used because napkins, kleenex or paper towels can ruin the disc even more causing more scratches...some of the fibers that are microscopic can even ruin them or get into the player (console) itself and cause damage to the lens. For the consoles, including DVD players and more, a vacuum can be used on the vents and canned air...not a shop vac though. For storage of discs, including VHS or Cassettes, just make sure they are away from anything that has moisture or excessive heat...and never keep them in the sunlight, as the sun's rays can cause heavy damage.
That's the best that I could tell you, and good luck with it! I've been gaming and collecting since the Atari era, and my systems and games still work great, so I must be doing something right!!!!
I had trouble with disc rot a decade or two ago when I was heavy into collecting laser discs. It was a well known phenomenon and we collectors were always on the lookout for it. I only had it on one laser disc... But there really was nothing I could do once it started. And this is why I almost exclusively collect old cartridge and card based systems and not the disc systems. Too much hassle
Does this apply to all CDs/DVDs, and not just old CDs?
Thus a huge pile of ROMs is more secure than paying someone silly money for an old disk.
I argue it's not piracy if the game I wish to play is no longer produced or published by the original studios. I'll buy VC games where I can but some titles (say: Soleil/Crusader of Centy) aren't officially available New anywhere, thus if I download a ROM it's not illegal because there is no legal way for me to pay SEGA for the game. Only some collector charging over the top loses out and I doubt he gives SEGA a cut.
@cfgk24 NEVAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
To be honest, every medium is exposed to some kind of danger. Discs can rot, cartridges are getting corroded and their RAM has a limited lifespan, and floppies will demagnetize. Of course one thing will happen faster than the other, but nothing lasts forever.
One easy thing you can do, in order to increase your precious collection's life span, is to properly store them. You know, all of those instructions like proper temperature and humidity, avoiding exposure to sunlight, not blowing into cartridges, clean the contacts from time to time, opening your machines/ccartridges and cleaning them inside etc. This sounds very basic and commonsensical , but believe me - I've been dealing with storage media for more than 20 years now, my oldest CD is from 1992 (only a handful of small scratches, nothing fatal), and floppy game from 1984 (Ultima 4 for the good ol' C64 - everything works, including the save!) - and yes, they're showing no sign of weariness.
Of course I had some cases of disc rot, though all of them were some cheap burned CDs, or magazine cover CD-ROMs.
While it's probably a little too early to start panicking (I hope), it's certainly a worry for the future, and proof of why efforts to preserve this medium's history are incredibly important.
@Yhdekskymmenen @Don It'll probably happen. Records came back, and the reason they're more money is due to the double layer that is now on them, to keep them from getting scratched and damaged...making them more tough (like 4 records on one to give it more strength). The only problems with CD's are the cheap ones...the ones you can put copied music on (Blank CDR's and CDW's) and the cheap companies that use them. Games made by the actual console company should be good, as they don't make them as cheap, but the cheaper the company, the more they could get damaged. As for applying to all, hopefully this is something that just happened to a few people, but it's just on where you store and how you take care of them. Blank CD's are the worst for trying to keep from getting damaged...CD's were made rather cheap, which could lead to PS1 titles more vulnerable to scratch and wear, but DVD's are meant to be a little stronger...and Bluray is even more superior (because blu ray discs are like 5 DVD's on one). All in all, it's how you take care of them and where you store them.
Thing is, GameCube, Wii and Wii U used disc media. We're screwed in a couple years.
@RadioHedgeFund I don't think it's illegal unless you sell them. I'd like to back up my games like people state, but I have no idea how. Can you give me some pointers on where to start and how to back up things like this?
Anybody else feel like they suddenly need to rip their GC library?
Does anyone recommend a program or app or something best for ripping GC discs? Maybe a HB Wii? Probably a computer, right? I don't have any GCN compatible disc drives though. Help. D:
In any case, when that's sorted out, Imma store them on my PowerMac G5. Thing has a TB HD. Great archive server.
@JLPick Sounds like the only thing I need is more isopropyl alcohol (which I will ask my around at home for) and a micro-fibre cloth. Are there any brands you can recommend for the cloth?
It's great to hear I am on form for cleaning my kit. Since the PS1 era I have been really protective of my games given how Croc got scratched beyond repair
Haha. And I recently had a debate with someone who thought "it's not our responsibility to preserve history"!
Archiving is good, and I commend those who do it.
Oh man... I bought Panzer Dragoon Saga back in 2008 for about $300 and it has since doubled in value according to ebay. I'm not a huge collector, but that is the best item in my collection and it would be terrible to see it expire.
@RandomNerds Perhaps you can find a way to back it up?
@Shiryu "I have always defended emulation as preservation and not blatant piracy because of stuff like this. People sometimes just don't seem to care for something that it was made before they were born and have no prior experience of it, without understanding the importance of it all. Since publishers and developers are often the first to not properly secure their own code I am very glad that there are people out there dedicating their whole free time preserving every game on every system out there. My grandchildren will thank them."
This !
Optical discs are extremely flimsy, cartridges can die and there is no way to repair them, discontinued systems will die down eventually and vanish.
Digitizing game libraries and programming emulators capable of reproducing said games as close to the original system as possible is, in my opinion, and extremely important task in preserving culture.
Nintendo needs to hurry up and release Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn for Switch then! Those 2 games are the rarest in my collection and absolutely fantastic games (though the latter does have difficulty issues), wouldn't want to lose those games.
Not a big deal unless you're a collector. It wouldn't be that hard to just copy over the ROM online or to another CD, wouldn't it?
@Grandpa_Pixel Of course, but I'm still worried the disks I paid $300 for will become worthless. Oh well, fingers crossed.
CDs indestructible? I never believed so to begin with XD
Given I had no clue of this early deteriorment, but how can you consider "resistent" something that feel like it could rot just by staring at it? ^_^;;;
Actually, there is such a thing as bit rot, and I've seen a few Atari 2600 carts that were afflicted.
Games only on cartridges I say!
Everything in the world are not eternal.
Disc can be rot, Cartridge can be corroded, Everything will decomposed eventually. So, when we still have much times for gaming, use it wisely. Play hard, Fun hard. When your things died by aging and also you are aging into elder stage, that will be a sweet memories to have wonderful times with your games. So, hopefully at the end your life, you will rest in happy same as your games that will die and can't be restored again.
Remember, nothing is eternal in the world.
Not sure how emulation helps game preservation? Console preservation sure, but not game preservation. Copying and archiving gaming ROMs preserves the games themselves, which is why arguably pirating games has been a good thing in the long term. In my opinion these ROMs should always be played on original hardware (flash carts, Swiss etc) whilst the consoles themselves still work. It's when these consoles start failing wholesale I'll start to worry. Playing games on emulators is nothing like playing it on original hardware, and completely unauthentic. But I'd take an emulator over never being able to play them again any day of the week.
I had an ultra rare Stone Temple Pilots bootleg I purchased in late 98 start spotting on the surface only after 6 years and from then on was unrecognizable. Funny thing is that all of the other CD's stored in the same bin are all OK. The initial disc quality must have been very poor along with my damp basement might be the root causes. I take the blame for neglect on my part
@Grandpa_Pixel If you've ever gotten the starter packs for the 3DS or Wii U, then it's those type of cloths...the ones that you'd use for glasses and such. The other ones that work, are just the normal fiber cleaning cloths that you can get practically anywhere. Other than that, just stay away from kleenex and paper towels, and continue what you do for your games and consoles. The most you do that, even if the consoles themselves are old, the better...they'll last for as long as you want them!
The forum thread linked to in the article had 28 readers, then 30, then 32, now 29, all guests and no members, all because Nintendo Life linked to it!
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31488-Panzer-Dragoon-Saga-source-code
Now I am worried.
Lmao! You guys actually believed that crap?!? I have old music Cd's from the 80's, old sega cd games and they are perfectly fine
30 years ? Yeah that's being optimistic.
CD and DVD can become unusable within 5 years, it's a matter of luck. Optical discs need to die.
@hYdeks
Lmao! You actually believe that crap?!? Many more people than you have unopened music Cd's from the 90's, barely used sega cd games and they are rotted to the core
Expand your views, please.
@Steel76 well digital games are safe as long as it's saved on flash memory aka solid state or flash cards
@Einherjar Not to mention that people and companies come and go. What happens to the games from those arcade manufacturers of the 70, 80, 90's are all gone? Will we pretend their games simply never existed since its almost in all the cases impossible to secure the rights to re-release them legally? That sadly sure seems to be what the law defends... and thus, pieces of culture are forever lost.
I had a PS1 instead of an N64, and I have to agree with this.
It's unfortunate that over 90% of the games I had didn't survived till today :/
Didn't realize before how much care CDs need to be handled and stored...
I'm worried about my "brand-new" GCN collection. I found Double Dash!!, Sunshine and Luigi's Mansion just a few months ago. How long will they last? They're preowned and well-used.
Well, we do have virtual console now thankfully. As for N64 having cartridges, you admit in the article that this hurt the platform at the time, so presumably some games never got made for N64 and/or moved to Playstation which meant that work now suffers from the disc rot problem for collectors, heh. Kind of a catch-22, really, as carts were clearly bad for developers at that time in the industry compared to working with CD - so praising that choice now is merely a small consolation.
I realize, though, that VC doesn't cover literally all games for that console since only a small number see a release, and that's a shame. All this said, if the devs would just make sure they keep their source code safe, we'd always have ports as an option to get games released again, assuming those games were considered successes, which is why only some make the cut for VC...
Some software gets priority, just like preserving that Van Gogh is far more important (most would say) than making sure little Joey's diary about summer camp is never lost, you know? Them's the breaks.
@JLPick Thanks for the help! Having difficulty finding the fibre cloth on its own but I won't give up. I will have to ask around and see what works
@Shiryu That's the thing. Stuff like the Virtual Console are all well and good, but there are plenty titles simply stuck in copyright limbo.
One of the most baffling examples: Donkey Kong Country.
Remember how long it took for it to be released on Virtual Console due to the copyright hell caused by parting with Rare Ware ?
I agree that piracy is a problem, but i would lie if i said i didn't cherish that fact that there are people out there getting their hands dirty in an effort to secure and preserve software from days gone by.
I always knew cartridges had a longer lifespan but I've never had a single disc or cartridge ever die on me. I won't say it will never be a problem for me in the future but I take excellent care of my games and as such I hope they all last me a very long time.
@Yhdekskymmenen they will last long if you take care of them. I still have them boxed and play the backup
@iGen "Anybody else feel the urge to rip their GC collection?
Does anyone recommend a program or app or something best for ripping GC discs? Maybe a HB Wii? Probably a computer, right? I don't have any GCN compatible disc drives though. Help. D:"
CleanRip from the Homebrew Channel on the Wii works great for backing up Wii and GameCube discs to ISOs, even rips the BCA if something requires that. Then, load the ISOs to a USB drive connected to your Wii and use a launcher from the HBC called Nintendont to play them. Store away your GameCube and Wii discs in a safe place and just play them off of the hard drive connected to your Wii, save wear and tear on your console's optical drive as well.
Haven't read the whole article, but this sounds bad! Is this still the case with modern discs?
This is concerning... greatly concerning
Most people think that disc buffing help make disc readable again, what they don't know is that by doing that, they are slowly damaging the codes that contain most of the main datas on the disc. So even if the disc could be read again, certain part of the disc will be inaccessible. One of my friend had a PlayStation copy of Resident Evil 2 and when one of the disc is scratched, he use a third party disc buffer to buff the disc up making it readable again but the game later frozed mid way through one of the chapter in the game eventually resulting in the disc unplayable. Luckily I had the N64 version so I never got this problem.
But that means... My copy of Kirby Air Ride could die soon! AAAAAHH!
Now I'm thinking about buying an external hard drive and copying the contents of all my PC game CDs onto it. You never know what games might not end up getting archived.
i have had this issue in the past when i used to play the sims back in the day. of course the sims requires you to have the CD in the drive to play the game even though all of the data files have been copied to your PC. at least they fixed that issue when the simis two came out.
the biggest problem with disc rot is that it can set in two fast. eventually i and many others have found a way to avoid disc rot or at least make it so that it takes longer before disc rot takes effect. one way is to store the CDs and DVDs properly.
at one point i figured out a way to repair disc rot, but it is not worth it. one reason is because of emulation and the fact that you can create backups of your CDs/DVDs.
i only repaired the disc rot issue on a few of my games over the past 20 years and that was because i really enjoyed playing those games and now that is possible to backup those old CDs/DVDs to my computer, i decided to do so.
when i spent time figuring out how to fix and revert disc rot, i unfortunately ruined and destroyed many CDs and DVDs. i unfortunately ruined a few DVD drives as well.
Makes me think about that article the other day about all those SNES carts getting lost in the mail. There really needs to be a mass scale preservation project.
Makes me think about that article the other day about all those SNES carts getting lost in the mail. There really needs to be a mass scale preservation project.
@Don there is the M Disc. It's an optical disc made of ceramic that is supposed to last 1,000 years. But they require a special drive and are pricey.
I have never personally run into this problem, but I definitely have always beleived that CDs were never going to last forever. I know this isnt an example of "rot" but I have had old pc games on cds just disappear, just showing an empty disc. Though I saved through working around with my old windows 95. I am not looking forward to the day that this could occur on a ps1/2 or gcn game. But I take pretty good care of them by keeping what I got in my room, nothing just laying in storage so I should be alright.
Well, at least we'll have the pretty cases and disc art right.........right? T.T
Disc manufacturing has always been an issue and I've been aware of issues of premature disc rot on things like DVDs and such. I recall learning of the phenomenon during the early days of DVD as I think those first dual-layer discs may have been especially prone to it due to defects. I went and searched for images of what Playstaion 1 disc rot looked like as the damage shown in the article wouldn't be so obvious on a black disc as all my PS1 games seem to be.
Shiryu said it very well in the first post, and I know Damien understands the upside to emulation as well. Preservation is the only argument needed to justify emulation. The corporations don't care about the games and it shows. Where's Contra? Where's Panzer Dragoon Saga?(source code lost) Bubble Bobble arcade's source code is lost along with many others, apparently. There are many great and significant games these companies can't or won't sell to willing buyers(I got money waiting right now for Konami to release Castlevania Bloodlines digitally). There are many great licensed games and arcade games that will likely never be commercially available again, with some being among the best in their genres. Then there's the situation that convinced me of all the good that comes from emulation. I've purchased official ROMs before, many times in fact. I'm happy to support such things. I've come to the conclusion that the game companies don't care. Far more often than not, very little care is put into official emulation. There's improper resolution, control lag, too much graphic filtering, too little graphic filtering, lack of controller support, lack of options, inaccurate emulation, poor sound emulation, various bugs big and small. These are things determined to be good enough to release and charge money for. In my case, I purchased an official ROM collection on PC that simply did not work properly, specifically the controller calibration was broken on multiple machines.
With all that said, and I'm not at all sold on the Switch, I'm looking forward to seeing what Nintendo's got in store for the Virtual Console on Switch. A proper account system is good progress. Emulation quality seems to have increased, based on the NES mini and its new NES emulator. I hope Nintendo does a better job maintaining the VC as well.
@BlueKnight07 sadly, it was for the sake of preservation that those SNES games were lost in the mail. Oh, the irony. Hopefully, there's a good resolution in that case.
@Shiryu That is why services like the Virtual Console and Playstation Classics need a kick in the head. People will gladly pay money to even get to play these games close to the original version let alone a cleaned up version. While we bemoan remasters they are going to help preserve future games as well. Now there will always be games that will just be lost forever due to poor preservation techniques and situations with who holds the rights to that content. While I dislike emulation because of the pirating factor (there are exceptions to this like ripping your own ROMs and ISOs that is rare in the emulation scene from what I have seen) they will help preserve that data for these games.
@Biffclaven
That sounds great, thanks.
Though is there any option for doing it on the computer? Probably not without a compatible drive, just want to know.
If not, guess I gotta dig up the Wii out of my closet AGAIN. Bah.
@sdelfin Yeah, I hope those are found and the effort succeeds. There really needs to be a safe repository for these ROMs.
@Shiryu I agree with preservation. Though, once a publisher wants to re-release an old game digitally that you've been enjoying for free, you should really buy said game. That's exactly what I did when Mother 1 finally got officially released.
@BlueKnight07 I forgot about the M Disc... I think i might still have one even though i never really used it.
I've always hated discs for gaming. Too fragile/scratchable/easily damaged, makes too much noise in the disc drive, and is way too slow with game loads. This is why I've always gone either with cartridges or all digital.
So what you're saying is...
Nintendo did something RIGHT?!
Hold on, I need to laugh! Now I laugh harder!!
I've been saying this for years.
Anyone who consider themselves a serious collector should only use digital downloads saved on flash memory or cartridges (which are also flash memory).
Optical media and HDDs are just not reliable in the long run.
@Dakt Battle Tanks, Armories, Perfect Dark, Rogue One, Bad Fur Day, Pod Racer, Command and Conquer, Gauntlet Legends, Duke Nukem, New Tetris World's, Turok, Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine, Forsaken, Quake 64, Fighters Destiny, Rogue Squadron, Say Hello! Yippee Ki-yay... And I was just warming up.
I'm no fanboy, but don't ye talk trash of the N64! D;
Well poop. All my Nintendo and PlayStation discs will be trash when I want to show them to my kids and grandchildren. Wonderful.
@Shiryu Where you getting Grandkids from?
I never heard the claim that CDs would last forever. At some point the layers start to separate. The article didn't need the drama to be interesting.
@cfgk24 Perfect clones.
I have about 200 discs each, of Blu-Ray movies and audio CDs. None have any kind of "disc rot" that I'm aware of, which I am truly thankful for. I think it ran across it once or twice on rentals, where the playable side had a bronze color closer to the center hole. That was about 16 years ago, though.
Ugh that is depressing to see. All of my media is in great condition but it is just a race against time. What is going to happen when I want to play VF5 (version C because they hadn't hit Vanessa with the nerf stick yet) when I'm 80?
Great article, actually makes sense!
@Shiryu Good point - only perfection from the Shiryu stable. . .
Man, this is quite more frightening especially since the game Panzer Dragoon Saga is even more difficult to preserve, do to it's trickier hardware that's yet to be cracked on a wide scale and it being one of the few Sega Saturn games with Copy Protection. It's quite a shame since it's considered to be one of Sega's best and even rivals with the likes of Ocarina of Time in terms of best game ever made.
I know I have at least one music CD that I bought in 1994 and it's in perfect condition.
Never had an issue with disc rot. It's been a know problem for a while. Discs have always been fragile, but cost and storage trump durability.
Just don't be careless with your collection. Hold a disc by the edges and never touch the under side. Always keep discs in a hard case when it's not in the disc drive being played. Keep them in a temprate, dry area of your home. Not too hard to do honestly.
Extreme humidity, heat and cold are hard on all electronics.
No storage media is free from data degradation (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_degradation), but probably ROMs like the N64 uses are much less prone to it than, for instance, optical discs.
It is also amazing how few people know that Flash media (like pendrives or SD cards) are quite ephemeral... they only can hold data for a few years (10 or less) without being powered. If you thought that storing your backups in a USB flash drive was a good option, please think again.
And, seriously, you should be much more worried about one kind of digital storage media than can also be degraded: your DNA !!
Yup, not even that is free from this problem (http://www.infostor.com/index/blogs_new/Henry-Newman-Blog/blogs/infostor/Henry-Newman-Blog/post987_162244910.html)
Have a nice day
Been waiting a while for something like this. NO, Nintendo did not make a mistake going with cartridge over Cd's.
@Dakt Speak entirely for yourself...!
Not once owning the N64 did I ever feel like my time with the console was lost on me or "barren." I'll agree to disagree with you and a thousand more too.
Most of the problems reported in the article are probably due to poor storaging - I personally have never had any of these problems. I have a few albums that belong to the very first generation of CD pressings, most notably Bob Dylan's Biograph box set (1985) and still plays perfectly. My Beatles records, again first CD pressing 1987-1989 are mint, despite me playing them constantly. And mind you, these objects are 10 years or more older than those analysed in the article. My Pink Floyd CDs (probably second pressing, circa '94) play as well as any new remastered edition in the shops at the moment. All my Dreamcast games are fine and look good. Nothing is "indestructible", but If you take good care of them, certainly CDs are one of the nicest supports available.
Disc rot is nothing new. As far back as the late 1980s, laserdiscs (10-inch CDs that could hold 60 minutes of video) were suffering from the rot problem. The worst case I've ever seen is when the silver layer actually peeled away completely, leaving a clear plastic disc!
im glad nl decided to spread knowledge about disc rot because im pretty sure over half the community didnt know what it was. it happens and sega cd is notorious of this problem. im probably in a different position than most because i can replace a damaged game if i need to without major setbacks but...
for years all this talk about game preservation and such...where is it? lets see it go into fruition. theres talk of project of people storing every game ever made into one huge database. all you see is text. no visual proof. by the time they get around to it full blown it will be 20 years. i can go re buy whatever i want, but im sure after the 3rd time i have to buy popful mail im gonna get impatient.
@Dakt Personally I really, really care about loading time. I even sold my original PS1 back in 96 because the loading time was killing me. I rather had games being made around cartridges, even if it meant it had less data, and there were less games.
@Tom41
Oh, do you know the worst part of disc rot ?
As the disc rotted away, its surface color changed from dirty spots become completely White as a Paper. Yep, Completely White. Another worst scenario, Peeling.
Gotta admit, this is the first time I've heard this. Discs don't last forever I know, but I didn't think it was this serious.
Most of my games are on disc as well. Crap. I've always prided myself on taking good care of my games, but after reading this, I do feel pretty paranoid.
I keep my games in their boxes, with most of them currently sitting under my bed in bigger boxes. I always hold them with my fingertips on the edges with my thumb in the center hole. I'd think I'd have nothing to worry about, but man am I scared.
I've actually read that blog post quite a while ago, and an unfortunate number of my Windows 98/XP games have definitely succumbed to this, I've found...
And so many people are saying "well, nuts to you, you shoulda' stored them properly"—we were little kids, for crying out loud!
And this is why downloading games will seem more favourable if XBOX and Playstation continue to use them.
I almost lost my copy of NFS2SE to disc rot, I don't even know how I was able to dump the disc to an ISO image for future preservation.
@Grandpa_Pixel probably that you will be playing the old games on virtual console or the remakes/scaled versions, which will more than likely be the case if you are going to still play them anyway.
Omg that's scary!! As an owner of thousands of games with the intent of leaving them behind for my kids to sell after I'm gone, this is very disappointing to hear. I've yet however to notice any evidence of disc rot thus far even though i obviously can't check my factory sealed ones!! As the proud owner of over 6000 video games carts/discs going all the way back to the Atari 2600 and well over a thousand music CDs I have to say (knock on wood) I've yet to experience this problem. Fingers crossed it's stays this way!!
New phenomenon? This far from a new phenomenon, i am more shocked on how ignorant people really are. And if you think game cartridge's are indestructible or something, your in for a shock if not stored correctly.
As if Smash Bros. discs were hard enough not to ruin
This is actually pretty amusing given how much people rant about the benefits of physical over digital
I first noticed this with all of the stuff I put on cheap CD-R. Those discs started suffering from this in under 10 years. I also have old shop bought CD albums which are now unplayable and I always looked after my CDs. Got near 50 year old records which still play though and my Master System collection is still working just fine.
@Grandpa_Pixel Try some regular cleaning-type cloths, which you should be able to find at a Dollar Tree, Dollar General, Walmart, Kmart, Target or even Best Buy...actually, a store like Best Buy should even have the regular fiber cloths that you are looking for. Good luck!
@JLPick Thanks a lot! I will be off to Tesco at lunch to have a look
@Shiryu I agree!
@iGen umm, I have music cd's from the 80's and sega cd games from launch that are perfectly fine, and play perfectly fine you don't exactly read the full comments, do you? But you go ahead and believe any old crap you want, and keep justifying Nintendo's incredibly dumb idea to stay cartridges with N64 -_-
@hYdeks
Yeah, and I bet you think it was incredibly dumb of them to go with carts on the Switch, too. Nice job replying to a week old comment, by the way.
Oh yes, I read all comments. I see everything.
How do you even totally know your discs are 100% pristine? They could have the tiniest bit of rot on them and still play OK.
You don't exactly take all possibilities into account, do you?
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