The homebrew scene on 3DS has been in a constant dance with Nintendo, with regular system updates often forcing those that want to use unofficial apps to run outdated firmware and lose the ability to play games online. As a result it's a very niche area, albeit with some quirky tools such as someone running Windows on a 3DS, just because they can.
A similar state of affairs is now underway on Wii U. A Wii U Homebrew Channel, of sorts, has been pulled together - it's not the first Wii U homebrew workaround by a long shot, but in its current form is certainly the most durable while functioning on the current firmware. Just as on 3DS, however, frequent system updates mean that those that seek to use it will likely be lagging behind soon enough.
In terms of what the 'channel' can do, some of the arguably less harmful uses include a tool to use any 'USB compliant' controller on the system, such as the PS4's DualShock 4. There are also tools for creating backups of your games, which is where things get sticky.
Though the original poster on NeoGAF is careful to highlight that you can simply backup games that you own, the channel and related tools do allow people to run ROMs through an existing Virtual Console game; we've seen similar things on the 3DS. Some examples in the thread include people running Rare N64 titles not on the Virtual Console, likewise DS games. In fact, there are homebrew tools that make DS titles that look better - in terms of resolution - than the official downloads.
In any case, Nintendo will likely be pushing homebrew solutions backwards with system updates, as it has been on 3DS. Unlike the rampant Wii and DS days exercises like these remain restricted to enthusiasts and dabblers, and in some cases fun (and silly) things can be done in homebrew.
Naturally anyone that meddles with their Wii U is breaking the user agreement, liable to get into bother or - at least - find themselves lagging behind in system updates and potentially losing online access. It's always interesting to look in from the outside, nevertheless.
[source neogaf.com]
Comments 101
"lagging behind in system updates and potentially losing online access"
There are ways around this.
I feel like I keep posting the same thing, but just look what people can do in their spare time with no knowledge of the operating system of the Wii U. How can anyone still believe Nintendo when they claim a lot of work goes into getting VC games up and running? These hobbyists are putting them to shame. This also sorts out the 'darkened' look of the current Wii U emulation.
"In fact, there are homebrew tools that make DS titles that look better - in terms of resolution - than the official downloads."
How embarrassing.
How long till Nintendo abandon the system updates on Wii U? ... Seems like I might get more out of my Wii U with a bit of homebrew, as crazy as it sounds. Likely won't bother though...
@Monado_III Ironically just recently the kexploit for 5.5.1 was leaked sooooooo
@DarthNocturnal it can also load game backups from the SD card (don't do piracy - dump games yourself)
@DiscoGentleman Shame right. 3DS has had save game backing up for the longest time but Wii U does not (yet)
You used to be stuck on a lower firmware on 3ds, not no more though. The scene has made a lot of progress and I doubt at this point there is much Nintendo can do about it now.
As far as the Wii U goes, its run through the web browser and requires no actually modification to the system. Must be run every time though and files for it must be hosted locally or on a server that someone made for it.
@Favna Yah I know (I'm on 5.5.1) but for future updates you can just spoof it
@MajinCubyan And said local hosting has already been made hyper easy - simply start one batch script that relies on Python 3 and bam all done.
As for the 3DS part. 100% agreed. With what the modifications apply there is simply no way AT ALL that Nintendo can still patch it unless they would use some kind of "kernel exploit" themselves. But by doing that they would only open up said "exploit" to the community so they wouldn't gain anything from it on the long run. The 3DS is cracked. Forever. And there is nothing Nintendo can do anymore. Whilst the 3DS is not yet at the stage the PSP was, progress towards that is being made to this day
system updates on wii u? Don't make me laugh.
@dereq making an issue out of piracy is hypocrisy tbh. at the end of the day nigh everyone has pirated some software in their lives at least once. It happens and on social platforms people just have to frigging deal with that. Don't like it? Ignore it. Easy.
Well, give it a year or 2 once Nintendo ends their firmware updates and boom, its a pirate's paradise....
Um, WiiU game saves can be backed up already. Try getting a hard drive and just copy your saves in data management. You can even save copies of your games if you've downloaded them.
@DiscoGentleman Of course there's a difference. Nintendo can afford to have people dedicated to this full time, but the people doing it in their spare time do a better job. It's just so annoying when Nintendo tell us how much work it takes to get a game on the VC when it's clearly not.
It's HBL (homebrew Loader) not Homebrew Channel
@DarthNocturnal As far as I know you can use USB controllers in Pokken. Once I get Pokken I'm going to try a Dualshock 4! It does have a good directional pad.
@Peach64 And what about other games where modders release higher quality visuals for the games than the developers did?
These people work with near unlimited time - even if it is part-time work. Developers don't.
@KodyDawg except there are 0 potential consequences
This sounds pretty sweet. I'd love to play with a dualshock or such. I'll keep an eye on the scene.
@KodyDawg It works on 5.5.1 (latest firmware) and there have been no reported bricks and the chance of one is pretty much zero as nothing can touch the WII U NAND with only the kernel exploit (which is what we have)
I've always found one of the best things about the original Wii to be the Homebrew Channel, giving it the ability to play backups of nearly every game from the 8 and 16-bit eras. From the Atari 2600 and 7800 to the NES, SNES, Master System, Sega Genesis / Mega Drive, PC Engine, Game Boy / Color, and to some extent even the Game Boy Advance. Once I learned my way around the Homebew Channel the Wii really became my ultimate All-In-One gaming device, and it would be really cool to see the Wii U get the same treatment as a swan song to a largely underappreciated console. =)
@jsty3105 except modders who release higher quality textures and such spend a lot more time working (weeks, or months) on them then say people who make made the VC look better, like, it's literally a repeatable process for any game to look better than what Nintendo has currently
I can't get on NL's case for reporting on this, knowing that once I have the NX, I'll probably mod the hell out of my Wii U. Truth is, mods can do things for the Wii U that should've been done in the first place (DVD or media player, or remove region-locking, for starters), and Nintendo has already given up on the system, so I doubt that they're going to keep updating it past the NX's launch, or if they do, it'll only be to block mods.
@Monado_III Which is likely the time it took to enable it via this programme
@Peach64
This post on that thread should help:
Because according to NERD, it was quite a challenge getting the DS emulator running on Wii U architecture as is
@Zanark Not really embarrassing. It's a toggle Nintendo chose not to enable for whatever reason. The homebrew allows us to change that toggle now
Really have no desire to mod my Wii U or 3DS. Almost every game I want to play I own on VC.
But for those rare exceptions, I do use a DStwo (includes extra processing power) to play the NES, SNES, GBA and DS Fire Emblem games on a DSi that I bought specifically for that purpose. And I have a modded Wii.
But I own every game anyways, with the exception of the JP games with English fan translations (an understandable exception).
What we see.
What
most NLers andNintendo sees.@jsty3105
Funnily enough, getting digital NDS games to work on the Nintendo DS should be easier, especially considering the already existing DSiWare titles. But apparently tying portable software to a home console helps selling said console.
@AlexSora89 Really not sure what you mean. All DS games already work across the 3DS family.
If you're talking about why Nintendo didn't do DS VC on the 3DS. I was wondering the same thing when they first announced it - then I realised it wouldn't make any financial sense to do so.
I don't have a reason to mod this gen but the idea of playing more ds games on the system sounds great. I'll think about it after wiiu support winds down.
@Peach64 hobbists have more time and no budget constraints so they can do whatever they want. It takes legal agreements, time for the vc rom to be ported and tested, and employee manpower to get games added. Most of this costs money. Also nintendo has to look at their bottom line so they offer games that return a profit. Unlike a hobbist who is doing this for the lulz. Otherwise every game company that has any access to older games would just dump their entire libary on the new system and call it a day. I never get when people see some hobbist with none of the same constraints and concerns as a company go "see? Company X could do it too!" Also even if all the companies involved in gaming sang kumbyeya they dont owe us anything. They have to focus on their bottom line.
Cheeky!? I guess I'll just have to... Turn the other cheek, then.
@Peach64 Plus you'd always get the true 60hz experience, instead of being passed off with 50hz.
@jsty3105
I think they could give us ONE more handheld Virtual Console... er, console. Why would the WiiU need BOTH the GBA and the DS is beyond me. It wasn't a console seller, so yeah. I can buy the fact the SNES can't be properly emulated on any 3DS model prior to the NN3DS one. But I wish that non-ambassadors could enjoy GBA games as well.
About time. Nintendo is abandoning wiiu anyway.
@Smokingspoon The Wii U will live on!
@AlexSora89 Lots of people wish the same as you so yeah, you're not alone
@Jin15 "and to some extent even the Game Boy Advance."
What do you mean by that? Most GBA games work perfectly with Visual Boy Advance GX.
And it doesn't stop at the list you made. My setup is as follows:
BlueMSX-wii - MSX emulator
FCE Ultra GX - NES emulator
Genesis Plus GX - emulator for Game Gear, 8 & 16-bit, SegaCD,
32xGnuboy GX - Game Boy/Game Boy Color emulator
GxGeo - Neo Geo AES/MVS emulator
Snes9x GX - SNES emulator
UAE Wii - Commodore Amiga A500-A1200 emulator
Visual Boy Advance GX - GBA emulator
Wii2600 - A2600 emulator
Wii64 (USB modded version) - N64 emulator
WiiColEm - ColecoVision emulator
WiiEngine - Turbografx-16/PC Engine emulator
WiiSX (USB modded version) - PSX emulator
And besides these emulators, I have ports of Doom, Quake, Alien Breed, Abuse, Bermuda Syndrome, Kobo and Roadfighter, as well as Nintendont (Native-based GameCube loader, so not an emulator!) and OpenBOR, the Beats of Rage engine, with several mod paks.
For all these, WiibrewDOTorg is your poison. (scroll down on the page to find all the emulators under "homebrew applications")
EDIT:
Forgot to add Not64 to my emulators list: it's an N64 emulator that runs all the ROMs that Wii64 can't, such as Conker's Bad Fur Day.
I sense stability on the way...
Wasn't there a "no piracy on current-gen" rule or something? What happened?
People gladly spend gigantic amounts of money on drugs and alcohol, but prefer to steal even the cheapest pieces of software, no matter the quality. What hope is there for newcomers in this industry if 2 years of work can be stolen in 2 minutes of effort?
@Kroko
There is, but since it looks Wii U support will be dropped when NX releases, the homebrew scene is going crazy with it.
The only reason I could understand is if you are truly desperate to use a patch on games like FE:F... But at least for me, the Virtual Console has been a joy, since I've been able to play the games I missed when I was a child. I really don't agree with piracy and emulation.
Disabling automatic updates and waiting for a tokyo mirage restoration patch.
Non-censored version of Genei Ibun Roku #FE should be one of the items on the hacker's to-do list.
(Sonicmeerket beat me to it. Great minds think alike.)
@NintendoLife Come on. This would get users banned on the forms; why write about it on the main site, then?
@jimi That's not always true. I've modded my Wii for backup purposes of games I own and playing game mods. I even delete backups for games I've sold, like Little King's Story. The only games I've "pirated" are really old titles that are either difficult to find or expensive (such as Lufia 2, Seiken Densetsu 3, Wonder Project J2, Terranigma, Live A Live, and Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776).
All it takes is a little moral restraint. But I can see you've lost faith in humanity. So I guess that I too am just another dirty pirate in your eyes, along with everyone else who lives by the DRM-free creed.
@ThanosReXXX Don't forget that Visual Boy Advance emulates the GBA, so it doubles as a GB/GBC emulator, too!
DS and 3DS games on the Wii U? Swellness.
I'm still on the fence with Dolphin, though. Downloading stuff like that always makes me itch. And finding a reliable source for games seems like a pretty big chance. But then, I don't know a whole ton about it yet.
@CrazedCavalier Because as long as they don't link anywhere and sanction the discussion, it's fine.
@Kroko There are sites like GOG.com that allow their customers to infinitely and indefinitely backup and copy/paste the games they buy, as the customer pleases. Such markets live and die on people's integrity in that regard. Surprise, surprise, they're still going strong, because they give a better deal than the pirates. And it's a lot less hassle, too.
@ThanosReXXX VBAGX is terrible it's basically unplayable, at least after playing on the GBPlayer. The enhanced port of mGBA is more accurate and many times faster, has GPU filters, 3DS as controller, 240p, pretty much all the goodies and then some.
By the way Genesis Plus GX does not support the 32x, gnuboy and other emus you mentioned are outdated, considering the ports of gambatte and nestopia are evidently more accurate and they still hit full speed.
Anyway Wii is an incredible system to have, no matter how you look at it.
@ThanosReXXX omg thanks for the tip about Not64, Wii64 wasn't cutting it for me. Had no idea there was a better alternative
If we can magically play 3DS games in HD on the Wii U with online and local multiplayer... than sure. But why try and hack a system that still has some life in it with the official software?
People sure do care about the potential of people pirating from a big corporation that makes hundreds of millions a year.
For me, it's all about the Smash Wii U mods. I love having custom music and textures. It's pretty much all I use it for. Oh, and using a safe version of the Octolings online (so it doesn't freeze everyone's else's system).
I think the only complaint I might personally have is that some might cheat online in direct ways (like item hacks in Mario Kart 8). Other soft cheats online, like altering stats (Xenoblade with max stats) might not be good for online, but it can be okay since it doesn't really impact other's gameplay. Plus, you can hire people with hacked stats to make the game easier. It's debatable I think.
I played some custom NSMB hacks. It was nice.
Still waiting for a proper way to have custom music on smash wii u.
Currently, its a bit tedious.
Yo that thing about upped resolution for DS games actually makes me want to go for this, I'd love to play the Mega Man Star Force games in HD resolution on my TV.
To me the most valuable function will be being able to use the same external HDD to run backups of both Wii U and Wii games, preferably from within the same loader. No idea if that's possessible yet, but it's what I'll be looking out for. I've got a load of physical discs if like to be able to preserve as best as possible.
Nintendo had given up on Wii U, they literally abandoned ship and don't care if pirates came onboard. 'Wii U is yours for the taking, hacked it to pieces, we don't care.'
@DiscoGentleman don't know whether this helps anyone, but i found a clumsy way to back up save files on wii u. this can be done with two external drives, or with one external plus internal memory.
i take one game and copy it from the drive where it is to the other one. now having two copies of the whole thing (game + save file), it's possible and safe to go into one of them and delete the software part. what remains is the save file. so you could do this many times and keep a flash drive full of save files.
so, while nintendo doesn't allow me to go into the game and copy that save file, it does allow me to copy the whole 10 gb of w101 and then delete the 10gb without deleting the save file. it's all quite stupid, but gets the job done.
When the Wii U's life comes to an end, I could see myself setting up Homebrew.
Just to play those games the Wii U should have in the VC library, a scummvm would be nice.
Nice progresses.
Looking forward to region-free launcher and if possible some amateur games exploiting the Gamepad.
@Favna But through homebrew, I can really backup my 3DS saves without being dependant of my console. (thanks to this, my brother who borrows me games can later export his save in his own gamecard he bought)
@Geno-Breaker It's really not about how much money they make. Pirates aren't like robin hood.
I used to try to justify my actions the same way too
@jsty3105
Thank goodness I'm not!
Also I felt my GBA library on 3DS wasn't complete without Super Mario World so the SNES VC on NN3DS kind of made up for that. Key word being "kind of".
@DiscoGentleman Exactly. the people that do this kind of thing, are hackers basically. They are also the same people that DDOS companies (like MS and Sony).
I would imagine most people who work in the game creation departments at Nintendo have a lot to do, and would find it hard to create such exploits. there is also the fact that they would loose their job and income if caught doing so.
As for Nintendo putting out VC titles. Neither you or I know hoe hard (or simple) a process it really is. I would imagine, if it was SO EASY, we would be seeing a LOT more VC titles. There has to be a reason why we don`t get 3,4,5 or 6 titles a week. I am pretty sure Nintendo are not deliberately keeping these titles back, the income they would get from them would surely make up for what ever expenditure they laid out.
@PlywoodStick I know, but I rather use separate emulators for that, but that's just me...
@AlienX Terrible? I have no idea what you're on about. I have the latest update and after some tweaking it runs all GBA games that I use with that emulator perfectly, so I have no such issues. And we're talking emulators for Wii here, not any other platform. (although Visual Boy Advance runs perfectly on PC too) Same goes for Gambatte and NEStopia: these don't count for the topic at hand. Mentioning PC/Linux/Mac emulators is missing the point.
And all emulators I use on the Wii are up to date, as in the latest versions available. Obviously, some are older than others seeing as the Wii is not supported anymore, but they are the most recent versions available.
You were right about 32x on Genesis Plus GX though, so I corrected that.
@Rocdema Well, I have no real problems with Wii64, just some games running with small bugs or not running at all (like Conker's Bad Fur Day) so it all depends on the game you want to use it for. Not64 is just a modification of Wii64 to address some small issues. There's also Mupen64, although I never used that.
And like I mentioned in my list, I use the USB version of Wii64 (and WiiSX for PSX emulation too) for more compatibility, so you might want to Google that and give that a go.
Hmm, on the one hand I'm impressed with the ingenuity and creativity of hackers. On the other, piracy bothers me.
I do think Nintendo could look to some of the scene's achievements and consider them for the future - region free, especially. When unofficial things improve the user experience, maybe the official providers should take note - homepass is the only way I'd ever have managed with the Plaza games and Puzzleswap and the trick to get gold pants for your mii is the only way I'd ever have gotten the corresponding achievement, since Nintendo doesn't seem to bother with them at all in the EU.
@Mario-Man-Child One of the cIOS files may not be configured properly, not updated, or missing. If updating cIOS doesn't work, starting over from scratch might.
@akaDv8R People who DDOS are usually in rogue groups like Anonymous. I wouldn't consider modders to be a rogue group, myself... Although Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft do. They've physically hunted modders down across the world, even though they didn't commit DDOS attacks.
As for the difficulty of releasing Virtual Console titles, there is a lot of technical work involved, but the biggest barrier is the legalities needed to rerelease titles. That isn't an excuse for a big company like Nintendo, though. There are smaller companies like GOG.com who do both a lot of technical work and legal work to acquire the rights to sell older titles. Sometimes, that takes years- it took the better part of 5 years to acquire the rights to sell LucasArts titles, long after the technical porting and digital packaging work would have been done. Yet, they got it done.
Nintendo simply doesn't care enough about their back catalog, and third party back catalogs, to take the time and effort necessary for more difficult to acquire titles. They didn't even bother to renew many of the licenses acquired during the Wii Shop Channel era. So it's not a matter of not being able to do it, or even that it's a lot of work. Nintendo just refuses to commit the work necessary. Cost considerations aren't an excuse there, either- again, smaller companies like GOG.com take that risk, and manage to make it pay off for them. So why else can't Nintendo do it, other than just not caring enough?
As for game backups, even DiscoGentleman, who you replied to, has remarked about his disappointment in Nintendo not sanctioning their own method of backing up games. Until that occurs, gotta do what you gotta do to make it happen.
Hacks that would make me interested in modding:
Character hacks in smash wii u (mainly Ice Climbers)
Any hack that lets you play multiplayer DS and GBA virtual console games that had single cart multiplayer functionality by using 3DS screens.
@PlywoodStick Nintendo are only big in terms of revenue. Not in terms of headcount
@ThanosReXXX VBAGX is garbage, it gives the illusion of working fine, but in reality it is constantly skipping frames and every ten or so seconds the audio and video hiccup for no reason.
It also has the most basic filtering available, another reason to use Enhanced mGBA instead.
I never once mentioned PC; I'm talking about the libretro port of gambatte and nestopia, these are fully compatible with Wii and GC.
The only advantage VBAGX has over gambatte is using the wiimote motion for Kirby's Tilt n Tumble.
@AlienX I had to look it up to see what you meant; Gambatte is incorporated in RetroArch, and NEStopia is not on the Wii homebrew shop, which is why I haven't heard of these particular programs themselves.
Never much cared for RetroArch: I want all my emulators to be separate, individual entities for reasons of personal preference and as it so happens, RetroArch does contain a couple of the exact same emulators that I use, so the added value isn't really there for me.
http://wiibrew.org/wiki/RetroArch_Wii
And as for vGBA: I just don't experience those problems, so I think you're either WAY too critical of emulation on consoles or you are a number f**er just for the sake of it: the average retro gamer doesn't give a rat's @ss that a game is skipping a frame or that the sound isn't exactly the same.
Most people that mod consoles to play older games don't use or don't own their old consoles anymore, so we can't put our game under the microscope anymore to compare how good or how bad they are emulated.
For me personally, as long as the emulated game succeeds in bringing back my memories of playing the original and it is still fun to play, then I'm more than fine with it. I have much better things to do than hunting that single skipped frame or hiccup in the sound. It's a hobby, not a necessity.
I mainly use hacks like these so I can play my back catalogue of games that will never make it to VC. Tried out the DS with the high resolution rendering and it works incredibly well, slightly glitchy in the initial main menu's for example, which could probably be fixed with further exploration and editing of the settings file but once entering the game it often works really well - a little more optimisation with the emulator and Wii U could easily be rendering all DS games 2x.
The future is bright for Wii U as I'm sure it won't be long before Nintendo stop updating it.
@ThanosReXXX While it is a modification, the last version of Not64 brought about some significant improvements over Wii64 in my opinion.
Is Wii 64 still in development?
@Kroko I think the majority of people who use this have a bigger interest in playing games that will never see another release as opposed to Indie games. Of course I won't deny pirates will always be there to take advantage.
Just try not to stress out about it.
@ThanosReXXX I think you're taking things too seriously.
I'm not critical about emulators, VBAGX is simply too slow, that's all there is to it. Not liking slow emulation can't possibly make you a critic or whatever dumb thing you're calling me.
@jsty3105 GOG.com isn't big in terms of revenue or headcount, so Nintendo should have the advantage. GOG.com is able to acquire toughly fought for rights, even if it takes years, and continuously renews them with end user support. Nintendo, on the other hand, is not so proactive, despite their resources, doesn't always bother with rarer or harder to acquire rights (although they were pretty okay during the Wii era), and doesn't always renew or support them. And that only got worse with the Wii U/3DS.
Why is a tiny Polish company able to accomplish so much, but a (relatively) big Japanese company with lots of international support unable to accomplish as much as they should be able to?
@AlienX Is that with every GBA game, or only certain games? I've never had a problem with VBA GX myself for Pokemon Crystal Kaizo. Maybe I'll try it out and see...
@liveswired No, not as far as I know, but then again; I don't have a Wii U, so I don't know if a newer version for the virtual Wii on the Wii U exists. The latest version is the USB modded version I use. It is compatible with near to 85% of the entire N64 game catalog.
@AlienX I wasn't trying to insult you, but sometimes in topics like these, my annoyance over people seemingly wanting to have everything picture perfect before they'd even consider using it, gets the better of me. If that offended you, then I'm sorry, because that was not my intention. I was just trying to figure you out, especially since I honestly don't experience any issues with Visual Boy Advance, whether it's the PC version or the one I've installed on the Wii.
@jsty3105 Nice accusation but I don't even pirate games. I just don't see why people care about others pirating games. It doesn't affect people who paid for the game at all besides DRM but Nintendo probably doesn't even have the online infrastructure for that lmao
@PlywoodStick Simple really. Once you work out what GOG does and what Nintendo does.
While Nintendo as a whole may be bigger than GOG, their licensing department might not be comparatively larger. If you also want Nintendo to make an investment in titles that are stuck in licensing limbo, there's got to be a sales benefit to it that makes sense. GOG's business structure is built on making old games playable and available to people. Nintendo's isn't. There's also the difficulty of emulation.
Without knowing the specifics, everything I've read about emulation is that it's hard to do accurately and smoothly on consoles due to the power requirements involved.
@Geno-Breaker Huh? Wasn't accusing you. Was responding specifically to that statement
@jimi Thank you. Completely agreed.
IMO, anyone who's unwilling to pay the entry price for a recent-gen console, doesn't deserve to play its games.
That's why the consoles exist; to play host to these games, especially the exclusives, and if one is not willing to respect that and pay for it, like HONEST gamers and fans do, then they aren't entitled to, or deserving of the ability to, play any of the games meant for that system.
The same goes for anyone who is willing to get the system, but then uses illegal means to obtain the software for it.
This isn't the same as renting, or borrowing from a friend.
When you use emulation software for a Wii U game, you're unlawfully taking something you haven't paid for.
@jsty3105 "Without knowing the specifics, everything I've read about emulation is that it's hard to do accurately and smoothly on consoles due to the power requirements involved."
Well, in all honesty, that does make a lot of people (including myself) wonder why so many unofficial emulators seem to be able to accomplish just that, with next to no trouble, and those are mostly hobby projects and not full-time jobs.
And yes, some of these emulators have a couple of issues and don't run every game perfectly, but still. Having to wait for Nintendo to finally give the go ahead to release a handful of titles on the Virtual Console, or having access to the ENTIRE catalog of multiple consoles and/or handhelds at once. It's quite the no-brainer...
The only trouble is probably in licensing fees and people available within Nintendo to do the conversions/ports. And besides that, it is even stranger that they often times release games on VC that are either not very popular or rather obscure, except in a bad way...
@ThanosReXXX The problem is more complex. You've oversimplified it by boiling it down to - if a small number of people can do without the resources of a corporation, then why can't that corporation achieve the same result?
You've already acknowledged that emulators have a few issues and don't run every game perfectly. That's fine for something that's free. Less fine if you have to pay for it. A lot of people, not necessarily yourself, forget that. Even the sound or music being slightly off leads to a poorer experience since the ultimate goal of emulating older hardware is to recreate the core experience.
There was already a huge debate when the SNES titles for the 3DS were announced to be exclusive to the New 3DS - a lot of useful information about emulation can be found in those discussions that cover the technical aspects.
Even the best SNES emulator needs a crazy system to run properly. A 3Ghz CPU! http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/
This reddit post from a developer should help clear up some things - https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/31zwxl/eli5_why_is_it_so_hard_to_create_a_100_accurate/
[–]mredding 5 points 1 year ago
Developer here,
To accurately emulate another architecture, you're basically writing a simulator of the actual circuit board, CPU, memory, buses, video, and all. You have to consider that it takes time for a signal to propagate through the transistors and wires, that there are errors in the circuitry, that the way they implement their circuits to, say, add, may be different than your native CPU architecture, you have to consider that it takes time your your simulator to not only produce the result, but measure the time it took to produce the result, the difference between now and when that result needs to be delivered, and take into account the time it takes to deliver so it gets there at the right moment.
And then consider that you're on a multi-tasking operating system and your entire simulation can be interrupted at any time, so all that hard work may be for nothing!
Once you get that CPU emulated, once you get the entire piece of hardware emulated, the audio processor, the video driver, the buses, then you can have a genuine emulation experience.
Of course, you don't need perfect simulation to have a successful emulator, you can get very close and no one will notice the difference, but there will be some programs, some games that depend on certain errors and timing issues that your imperfect emulator isn't accounting for, and so the results will be wrong, maybe unplayably wrong.
And that's what makes writing an emulator so damn hard.
@jsty3105 I'm not entirely unfamiliar with the subject, in case you might think so, and I know what it takes to make an emulator run well. I remember waiting for my PC to be powerful enough to be able to run WinUAE, the Amiga emulator.
I even followed development of Frodo, the C64 emulator, even though I never used that. The general gist of the story back then (don't exactly know how that equates to today's standards) was that the emulator needed a system at LEAST 5 times more powerful to be able to emulate it in a playable form.
Obviously I know that emulation is not only mimicking the game but also the system that it needs to run on, which is what causes the bugs, inconsistencies and what not, so I know all that, but still the efforts of the hobby developer programming from his attic (or basement) seem to outshine the professional ones on a regular basis, since there are quite a lot of emulators out there, and besides the odd bug here and there, most of them are quite good and even add stuff unavailable on the original hardware.
Dolphin comes to mind, for example, and so does Project64. Two emulators that do really well on any PC that is above average.
I get the whole 3DS/New 3DS issue too, as far as SNES emulation is concerned. But that system isn't exactly a powerhouse, so that one seems pretty obvious to me.
As for the multi-tasking comment: that seems more applicable to the PC, and not to the Wii, since when that is in it's emulation mode, it isn't doing anything else, and some emulators even lock it in that mode, such as Neo Geo and GameCube, requiring you to either use a GamePad combo or a reset to return to the Wii home menu.
So, it's not that I think that writing emulators is easy, I just think there's a lot more going on than time and effort, since amateurs show that it can definitely be done, and with emulators that run ALL games, so when they can succeed in doing that with only a few bugs here and there, then I expect a hell of a whole lot more of a team of professionals, and I think that is anything but unrealistic.
And please let them release the games that we'd actually like to see, instead of some odd Sega or PC Engine title that nobody knows or wants...
@ThanosReXXX Don't mean to sound curt as you've written quite a bit.
Only few bugs? I think it's acknowledged there isn't yet an emulator that runs all (or even a very large segment of) games exactly as they ran on the actual hardware. There are more than a few bugs on emulation software depending on which games run on what emulator. One emulator may be able to run a game perfectly while another can't so there's no universal compatibility list. I still haven't heard of one that does Super Mario RPG accurately. The Virtual Console is possibly the most accurate emulator out there.
There's a very big difference between a game being compatible/playable and it being emulated accurately. I think the former is what you've been experiencing. Again, it's perfectly fine if you don't have to pay for it or the games. Once you put a price tag to it, it becomes far less acceptable to have inaccurate emulation.
You're paying for nostalgia. If the emulation renders the game differently in any way, the experience is compromised. And you might not pay for such an experience.
Amateurs have certainly showed it can be done and they've largely made good progress in the field - but having it done accurately? Whole different story. A comprehensive piece on this is in the ars technica link I posted above.
@jsty3105 You're right- And it's precisely because Nintendo has not allocated a sufficient department dedicated to maintaining and enhancing the Virtual Console that it's in such a sorry state today. It was going well with the Wii, and looked like the 3DS might repeat that at first, but then their austerity measures kicked in and killed the Virtual Console.
Console software isn't the only thing that's difficult to emulate. A lot of old PC titles simply won't run properly (or at all) on modern operating systems. With the really old ones, most of the work as already been done by DOSBox (a mod community created emulator). But for anything designed to run on operating systems like Win95, 98, XP, etc, it's not always as easy as just running in compatibility mode. So it's a lot of work to bring old PC titles back, and sometimes even reverse engineer them to force them to work properly in modern operating systems, too.
Yet lo and behold, GOG consistently gets the job done, even if it takes years. Meanwhile, at Nintendo HQ... crickets chirping while twiddling their thumb appendages
@jsty3105 But that's exactly what I'm saying: (well, at least part of what I'm saying) if amateurs can get the ball rolling and make a program that runs almost the entire catalog of say, SNES games with an average precision of anywhere between 80 - 90%, and someone has yet to show me a game that's lower than that, (let's not mince meat over single skipped frames or sound being ever so slightly off: think of general customer experience, not perfectionists with microscopes, since most of these will probably not even buy VC games in the first place because they probably will (or need to) find something wrong with these too) then the professionals at Nintendo should easily be able to make that a 100%, since they should be more at home in these programs and like previously mentioned, they do this for a living.
I think that when we talk about what's acceptable for one person is unacceptable for another is true, but for me personally, I am actually quite critical, so I don't want to play a stuttering mess of a game or a game with bugs in it, and I haven't experienced that a whole lot of times with the emulators I use, which is also why I got into a discussion with the other guy, who kept going on about VBA GX, which to me seems just fine and I experience no lag or significant frame skips or sound distortion when playing these games.
I don't know which programs you use (if any) but most of the emulators for Wii I mentioned, run games completely playable, with bugs being more noticeable only in N64 and PSX emulation. 8-bit and 16-bit systems or older work just fine, and personally, I'm quite impressed by GX GEO, the Neo Geo emulator, that runs some of my favorite games almost perfectly, so if some publisher would pick up and officially release this emulator and bundle it with a couple of games, then I would certainly buy that for my 3DS or even my home console.
Of course I understand that commercial emulation is a different ball game, but I can not understand that there has to be such a HUGE difference in effort and results when clearly most of the emulation can already be done with open source software, so that is why I kind of came to the conclusion that apparently there are other considerations coming into play at Nintendo as far as bringing out more VC titles, and bringing them out more quickly.
Interesting article though, that Ars Technica one. Although if they write it now, it probably won't be 3Ghz, since the hardware they ran the emulators on back then has now vastly improved, so it may very well only be half that. But still, I get the point between pixel perfect emulation, and the emulation that I, and many others, agree with. And that is when a game is perfectly playable without any directly noticeable issues, and doesn't lock up/freeze anywhere in the game.
As long as I'm not in any way prevented from finishing such a game because of bugs like these, then I'm a happy camper. It's all for recreational purposes any way, after all...
@jsty3105 Did some more reading on Ars Technica (thanks again for the link) and I found an interesting article highlighting another aspect of emulation, namely Nintendo doing what we are not supposed to do...
(the article isn't entirely about that, but you'll see what I mean)
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/how-the-demonization-of-emulation-devalues-gamings-heritage/
@PlywoodStick Maybe because they care about their services? That's what happen when gamers create services - not corporate boardrooms.
@jsty3105 But nobody is going to that extreme - especially Nintendo - they look for a quick fix for their VC. They don't spend much time investing in it, games are just dumped in a playable state with an emulator on generic settings - regardless of whether they fit the game or not (Donkey Kong 64 widescreen, surround etc)
I'm mightily impressed by NERD's DS emulation - BUT - if Nintendo gave them the time to properly implement 2x rendering which works amazingly well in its 'test' state, DS emulation on Wii U would be the go to platform. I tested out Super Mario 64 DS (legit) and modded the ini to run render the game in higher resolution and 100% brightness on Wii U and the results were astonishing - a bit buggy on the main menu screens - but in game...it was amazing, with no framerate hit. If Nintendo released every top DS polygonal game with this I would buy every one!
@ThanosReXXX Interesting article!
@jsty3105 It is, isn't it? Certainly puts the whole pro vs con discussion in an entirely different light as far as I am concerned...
@jsty3105 That's not an excuse. Regardless of platform emulators are initially difficult to set up. The DS emulator is very well done, it runs ALL DS games without issue at 256x192, however this is unplayable.
Some more optimisation would've allowed for high resolution rendering as standard. The fact that there are only minor glitches, mainly in opening menus with the setting turned on shows that it could be easily done, the games I've tested have pretty much no impact to framerate. I've tried it and the results are insane.
@liveswired Nope, definitely not ALL DS games. wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/WiiU_VC_NDS_injection
And there's still a big difference in a free product with minor glitches, minor audio issues, and pretty much no impact on frame rate, and a paid one.
I've said before. Virtual Consoles titles sell in nostalgia. Any experience that's not as good as the original immediately drops it's value in the eyes of a paying consumer.
@Rei Loadiine is region free because it exploits mii maker !
You know there was a Homebrew Channel on the Wii, right? You know, the thing that started all this?
@jsty3105 you are disgustingly apologetic about Nintendo's milking of VC games. Face it, Nintendo could easily release VC games at a much higher rate and evenfind gamers willing to play test them for free. They choose to do it slowly and milk their back catalog for maximum profit. NES games in particular have been accurately emulated for years. Look at all the work done by hobbiest to bring RGB and HDMI output to the NES. Nintendo is just trying to put games out slowly. If they released all the best games it would devalue the not so good ones. They create artificial demand to prevent that.
@brandon9271 Fighting talk there big guy one month after this comments section died down!
Besides, you missed the mark. None of my comments here related to NES emulation. Though you are right on the money about the maximising profit of their back catalogue bit.
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