having to "unlock" levels makes you feel that much prouder and excited when you beat them. most games won't just let you zoom to the part you feel like playing first.
You are going to feel equally satisfied with a level after beating it whether you're given something or not. But you are going to be much more pissed when you don't beat a level if not beating it prevents you from playing the game you have paid for. Playing the game should its own reward (when you play a sport, do you need someone to give you a treat every time you score a goal in order to be happy with yourself?), but it's hard to play when the game makes you jump through hoops before giving you access to the complete product, some of which you may not be capable of jumping through.
There was this free PC game I used to play, Jumper 2. In one of the early levels there was this ridiculous pixel perfect jump that I just did not have the skill for. Literally tried approaching 100 times. Got a save file from someone finally, and I beat most of the rest of the game including the final level and boss. That's satisfaction. Trying a level over and over that you can't beat just because the developer thinks you ought? That's downright annoying to put it very, very mildly.
And let me remind you, while I said I would not mind using another save file, I in fact did not. I beat both games on my own, and meanwhile you're still not done the first one, so why don't you just crawl away in shame right about now?
Oi! You said yourself you had help with Growth, so don't be giving it the large, mmmkay.
You are going to feel equally satisfied with a level after beating it whether you're given something or not. But you are going to be much more pissed when you don't beat a level if not beating it prevents you from playing the game you have paid for.
If I don't beat a level, I don't deserve to see the next one.
I did beat it on my own using two controllers, which is the more fun way to play, I find. The extra coordination required feels right at home with the Bit Trip MO. I'll probably try a normal single-controller completion some time this week since nothing new came out today that sounds worth playing.
@Adam: turned it on today, beat Control on the first try. figured 'what the heck', tried Exploration, and beat it on the first try too. Core is officially pwnt, hahaha, can't wait for Void. :3
I must thank you for getting me back into these games, and also again for the save file. They're much more fun when you know someone else out there is suffering through the same things as you are, and i think beating Control helped me to get through Exploration finally (light at the end of the tunnel and all that).
BEST THREAD EVER future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
the bit.trip games are interesting in that while some parts will be impossible for some other will have no trouble. some find core much harder than beat other find it the opposite. the games seem to get challenge how your brain works and interprets information in a direct way not seen in many modern games.
@adam if you feel so strongly about being able to access everything you paid for immediately why didn't you use the save? to me the order they laid out the levels and require you to unlock them is very deliberate and a good design decision. otherwise especially with only 3 levels there wouldn't really be a sense of beating the game if you always had access to all levels.
In any case I think all in the thread agree that the bit.trip games are awesome and quite challenging. makes me glad I own a wii. Also I only a few weeks ago after months of playing reached growth in bit.trip.beat. And its taken me quite a while to even pass 1 or 2 transitions in it. I've never played such a hard game that wasn't frustrating as well. To me that's a sign of great design.
Haha, yes, I know what you mean. If I feel like I am the sole player in the universe with a game, I don't care quite as much about it for some reason. Glad to help. If Void is just as tough, we'll have to tag team on that, too.
@jbrodack: i think you're thinking of the save that was available for Beat, not Core. Core had no such save-file available for download. :3
also, i greatly disagree with the 'there's no sense of beating the game if you've already got it unlocked' thing -- Control was ridiculously easy compared to Exploration, but I can see why they would've laid out the songs to have Control last, as it was definitely the best song out of the three aurally. it made no sense to have Exploration be so crazy hard to beat when Control was so easy, IMO, but even after I beat Control, I fired up Exploration and finally beat that for myself, too, and I feel just as accomplished as if I hadn't had Adam's save-file. I still busted my rear for days to beat Exploration, and it feels great to have finally beaten it (after taking a play-break with Control instead). :3
@Adam: heck yeah, we'll tag-team Void if we have to in order to get through it.
BEST THREAD EVER future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
there's no official save file for core but I was saying adam was talking about wanting to have core unlocked from the beginning. could have used someone elses save. some of my comments were about the series in general so easy to confuse the two games.
so far in core I've only beaten the first level so I can't really talk about the difficulty curve in that game too well but the difficulty curve in beat worked really well for me as far as level order.
Ok, maybe I'm wrong in no sense of beating a game with everything unlocked but I guess I was just making a point that I could see why the developers did it that way. Actually, no matter what the bit.trip games seem to give a huge sense of accomplishment when beating a level - definitely more than any other game I've played this generation.
@jbrodack: believe me, we both looked for an online save before deciding to agree to help each other out (if he beat Exploration first, he'd send me his save file; if i beat Exploration first, i'd send him my save file). If there'd been one available online from a reputable site, we would've (or I would've, at least) used it. :3
and i totally agree with the huge sense of accomplishment for beating any level in the bit.trip games. they're really hard, but a lot of fun.
BEST THREAD EVER future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
To reiterate and confirm what Dragon said, I can understand how you'd be confused since you haven't played through Core like we have. Level 2 is significantly harder than Level 3. Take this from someone who's completed both games. There was no save file available online to our knowledge prior to my upload.
Developers started using the unlockable concept as a means of rewarding the gamer, but this a ridiculous concept to begin with. Is playing the game not its own reward? As you've pointed out yourself, different players find different aspects of Bit Trip games (and indeed all games) difficult, while some players find these aspects very easy. If the developer cannot properly anticipate this reaction in everyone, how do you properly set up a difficulty curve in the unlockable format?
You can do your best, but unless there is a tangible plot or other reason to prevent a player from accessing one area (such as the lack of a required item in a Zelda or Metriodvania game), why do this at all? My favorite approach is actually in Swords and Soldiers. Later levels are grayed out as if they are inaccessible in order to suggest an order of play, but if you choose to ignore this, the levels actually are accessible from the get-go.
Ah, I now understand what both adam and theblackdragon are saying and how things went down. I still don't personally have a problem with the unlockable system in general though I do understand your specific gripes with it. I'm personally more annoyed when I see the best stuff needing to be unlocked in retail games. So you have to play and replay the stuff that isn't as fun to get to the stuff that is more fun. But, as far as basic level order being locked I usually don't have a problem. So, basically I mostly agree but am usually not bothered by it and sometimes even see some merit to it.
@Adam I haven't played swords and soldiers but that actually is a pretty clever way to go about level select.
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