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Topic: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

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Kinoen

Haru17 wrote:

Yes, making games does cost money. Good job Nintendo Life.

But anyway, I had forgotten about Birdo. I can't say I really miss her, but it's time for the Koopalings to die. Leave 'em on the SNES. I definitely want either less or more different characters for the next Mario Kart. I don't care about other franchises, but just one Paper Mario character like Vivian would be great to see in 3D. And if you're doing Zelda, literally anyone but Link please. Racing windsock hat yes, yes, fiiiine, but even Zelda and TP Ganondorf are just so much more interesting. I don't need the Kong extended family though — they have always been a weird semi-distinct franchise from Mario, so just D.K. is fine.

Zelda, Ganon and Vivian along with Birdo and Diddy fills up those 5 spots I mentioned to @Pod!

@Pod
Hey thanks~...but I still don't follow. What makes Mario in this game stick out more than in other Kart games outside of new(?) emotes when performing an action. I mean each and every character from Nintendo in general are pretty unique, enough so that adding a bunch of characters to a game would not make them lose focus. I mean, look at Smash Bros. as a good example of this. In this game, they would need to do so much less work.

Nice, thought I was the last Birdo fan. Left out, 3 separate times in the same game! I also hold no ill will to those jokers actually, I actually like that they are in the game. In comparison, the Mario and Peach variation that came with The Legend of Zelda DLC in the non-deluxe was the joke.

Yeah, its awful. "Here's a new Mario game that's EXACTLY like the last one, but we took 1 thing away and put 1 new thing in, money plz!".

I would feel for it, but I stopped playing those Mario games altogether for how "CoD" it became.

Yeah, so if that's the case, it makes the game as a whole worse.

@ Kimyonaakuma
Exactly. I don't have MK8D because of me having MK8 + all DLC, so I can imagine the frustration of others buying it now not having to worry about additional costs just for them to appear.
Though they could make a good 3-5 FREE DLC characters. I'm %99 sure they made a large enough profit for that.

As you say, odds are MK9 won't happen for a long time to come...and it better not since they just re-released MK8.

It's cool. I would like to hear peoples opinion on this.

@Grumblevolcano
More anger is what would happen.

@G0dlike
Yeah, keep it green with FREE DLC since they made us pay for the same game twice.

@Haru17
Yes to all of that, especially Midna.

@chriiiiiiiiiis
I have a soft spot for Paratrooopa and wouldn't mind seeing him in this game as well. I just don't feel as strongly about it since the game has Koopa Troopa and Dry bones, essentially variations of Paratroopa. To the game having a large roster, by numbers it does buy by characters it doesn't. Bowser Jr. > All the Koopalings.
Mario > All variations
Peach > All variations.

EDIT: Minus /EDIT Baby Rosalina <- cause why though?
You're then left with a smaller roster, maybe still the biggest, but not by much.

Edited on by Kinoen

Kinoen

skywake

The thing about characters is that there aren't really character "slots". Gold Mario existing isn't the reason why Birdo isn't there. The fact that some characters are similar is not really a negative anymore than there being a male and female inkling.

That said, as someone who has always played as Bowser? I'm not complaining having light and medium weight koopalings, dry browser, dry bones and browser jr as options. I also know of people who love the baby characters. So what you guys whine about others are silently happy about.

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Joeynator3000

.........Did Rex make a second account?

My Monster Hunter Rise Gameplay
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Bass_X0

I have a soft spot for Paratrooopa and wouldn't mind seeing him in this game as well. I just don't feel as strongly about it since the game has Koopa Troopa and Dry bones, essentially variations of Paratroopa.

Paratroopa and Parabones should just be accessories for Koopa Troopa and Dry Bones instead of having their own space on the character select screen. Just hold a button to make the wings appear when selecting them.

Bowser Jr. > All the Koopalings.

The Koopalings deserved to appear in the Mario Kart series at least once. They are recurring bosses in the main Mario games after all. Unfortunately they don't have much personality outside of the old cartoons (where they had a lot) so I can see why young fans who haven't watched the shows may not be attached to them as much.

Though they could make a good 3-5 FREE DLC characters. I'm %99 sure they made a large enough profit for that.

Not going to happen IMO. Although I do hope for more free color schemes sometime. That's certainly possible.

they need to keep a reserve of retro tracks for future games anyway.

Its not really that significant as you may think. Mario Kart DS is so dated now that the retro courses in that game now need to be updated in a modern game. They've already started doing so with Baby Park and Yoshi Circuit.

MK8 DX will imho be the only Mario Kart game on the Switch. They can keep it evergreen with DLC, and it will be purchased.

I agree and hope that DLC will be announced within the first year of Deluxe's release. I'd definitely buy it. I'd even be okay if they wanted to cut down on development time and costs and reuse the graphics of existing courses to make different courses like in the original SNES game. All remaining 12 N64 courses could be done this way.

Edited on by Bass_X0

Edgey, Gumshoe, Godot, Sissel, Larry, then Mia, Franziska, Maggie, Kay and Lynne.

I'm throwing my money at the screen but nothing happens!

Pod

@Kinoen
I'm not saying Mario sticks out more. But they had to model, texture, rig, and animate him again to make Mario Kart 8, because they fidelity is higher than ever, and the art direction is more on point than previously.

If they were to have had every single previous driver available in 8, the impact of all seven koopalings being present would not have been as big, and the character selection screen would have been a mess.

I'm not sure I think Smash Bros. is a good example of why everything should have been in the game. It's incredibly expensive to recreate all the characters in the roster, very difficult to balance it all, and challenging to make a coherent art direction work out. I personally don't think they achieved any of this very well in Brawl or 4., and I certainly don't hope to see all the Fire Emblem characters become mainstays.

I think it is a good thing that certain features are left behind in older versions of games, particularly if the art direction changes as well. Who misses tripping from Smash? Or having to get a Smash Ball to play with Zero Suit Samus? Those were purposefully removed, and so were a bunch of stages as well.

Pod

Kinoen

@skywake
But odds are that's why though. As someone mentioned that a lot of work goes into making each character since MK8 was made from the ground up, so the more characters, the more work needs to be put in and the less likely we are to see other characters.

It's the fact that those similar character like male and female inklings could have more easily have been skins instead of full blown characters. With that having been the case, those people who are silently happy with those certain characters would have still gotten them and we who would have liked to see characters outside of variations would have that too. It would have been a win-win for everyone.

@Joeynator3000
If that's directed to me, no. I've only every used these forums once before and in general, am not a fan of making more than one account.

@Bass_X0
If only Nintendo would do that.

Does deserving to be in a Kart game mean taking up a slot per ling? I'm not opposed to them being in the game, just the fact they take up way to many slots.

Well yeah, I'm not holding my breath either. It would just be nice though, seeing as they made a profit with MK8D what with it being a port of MK8 with very little added. Not like they re-worked the game or anything.

To MK8D having paid for DLC; I'm still against it. After people buying MK8 + all DLC than again buying MK8D, there's a limit to how much you push push something on people before they stop buying. Though I guess Devs like pushing it to see the limits. Example: CoD and Assassins Creed

@Pod
Agreed, I find everyone sticks out relatively the same. They had to do that with each Smash Bros. games as well, right? To me, it would be more work for the Smash Bros games since they need to work on so much more than in a racing game where they are sitting down the majority of the time with the occasion emote.

I don't know about that, if they kept in all previous characters and then had each koopaling in a slot, MK8 would still be known as the one with all the koopalings. I mean, it's hard to ignore 8 characters in a roster. As for the character selection screen, I refer to Smash Bros.
<- as in having the largest roster since MvC2 and selecting a characters doesn't feel like a mess.

Agreed, but that's because it's a fighting game, this is a racing game, where I feel a lot less work is needed to make a character since they are practically stationary the majority of the time. There's nothing really to balance in Mario Kart either, at least in comparison to Smash Bros. Nintendo threw in a Nissan or whatever car into Mario Kart, pretty sure that's the biggest misdirection to Nintendo's art, as opposed to their own IP's. The only thing I can think of where they fell flat with Brawl, is making it thee most casual Smash game, and adding random tripping. I would say 4 is a very solid game, a good balance of casual and competitive. I fully agree with you there, I do NOT want to see all those FE characters make a return, just Marth with a Lucina skin, Roy and Ike with Chrome's skin.

Point taken, but those are features, not characters, why take away characters? Characters can be re-worked into something new if it didn't work out before. Like how I'm still waiting on Ganon's rework in Smash.

Kinoen

Pod

@Kinoen
I can only refer back, to the fact that Nintendo WANT the games to feel different, so they deliberately remove characters. That itself is a large part of the answer to your "why".
And -I- certainly feel the character select screen in Smash has become a mess. And I'd like for the same not to happen to Mario Kart.
Lastly, the keyword in "practically stationary most of the time" is "practically". The characters are still fully modelled, textured and rigged, even if they're only animated sitting on/in different vehicles. It's still a lot of work.

Ultimately, I can see waht you mean, but I think most series fans are more upset about the absence of previous tracks than previous drivers, as these are more essential to the gameplay experience. And the answers as to why they aren't present are the same. Workload. Focus of the user experience. Product identity.

Pod

Bass_X0

Some characters share parts of the same model. Baby Daisy is basically Baby Peach with different hair. Baby Mario and Luigi have the same bodies but different heads. Toadette is basically the same as Toad but with pigtails.

Edgey, Gumshoe, Godot, Sissel, Larry, then Mia, Franziska, Maggie, Kay and Lynne.

I'm throwing my money at the screen but nothing happens!

Kinoen

@Pod
But removing characters don't impact how the game plays, so taking characters away won't make the game any different outside of the roster.
To each their own, I won't argue that.
Yes, but because of them being so stationary, the work, no matter how much was required, is still (to my knowledge) minuscule in comparison to the amount it took for Smash Bros., model-to-model. They also chose to do more work when they made each Koopaling a separate character, as well as the Mario and Peach variations. I don't want to be punished for their bad decision.

I can see why, tracks are an attraction to a racing game. Not to mention I don't think anyone really cares about characters since everyone enjoys playing as the main cast of Mario anyway. Of course the tracks are more essential to the gameplay.
Or Nintendo is being lazy. These are the guys and girls who gave you multiple Mario games (as I said before) with only one thing being altered per game. I would also like to bring up CD Projekt Red, an Indie team that gives LOADS of content in their games, despite NOT having Nintendo's staff or resources, plus I would argue that there's more to make in the Witcher games than they are in Mario Kart games.

For Product Identity, let's go back to me saying "to keep what the previous game had and just adding onto that", that could still work for what you said with "the game with the Koopalings" since the Koopalings were not in any other Mario Kart game. Next game, add Paper Mario stuff while keeping the Koopalings and BAM, that new game identifies as "The one with Paper Mario characters" while keeping the Koopalings.

Kinoen

Kimyonaakuma

Nintendo tends to leave certain things behind in games. Even though some of these are changed for the sake of improvements, I also feel that some features and characters are deliberately left behind. But in my opinion it makes certain games more special to me due to the unique spin they have on things. Mario Kart seems to be an example of this, if ALL characters were carried over to the next installment they would make the games in the series less special as individuals. This does however lead to some fan favourite characters being left out.

As for the models they are fully functional characters even if they are in a stationary position for the majority of the time. The style and design of the models should make them easier to produce in large amounts when compared to SSB4 though. Despite being a lot of work for both games, the models for mario kart are certainly easier to texture and model due to the less realistic proportions and designs.

  • I second the support for paper mario characters! But would they be made 3d and lose their paper quality or would they just be 2d characters that flip to match the camera perspective?

Kimyonaakuma

skywake

@Kinoen
Again, the difference between a new character and a different skin isn't that clear cut. Some of the baby characters are super similar. The koopalings are not and wouldn't have been as easy to make. And again, when you complain about Birdo? In an alternative universe where they added birdo Simone is complaining about toadette, rosalina or funky kong. There will always be someone to complain, adding more characters is just kicking the can a bit further along.

BTW, Nintendo would have a lot of stats on which characters people use online. Clearly a lot of people used Metal Mario and the baby characters. I'd wager almost nobody played as Birdo.

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Kinoen

@Kimyonaakuma
Which makes sense for something like Smash Bros. Brawl with the tripping, because that was atrocious, but why characters?
How does a game feel special by getting rid of characters? Unless those characters are Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser, because they are the main cast of Mario so by getting rid of them Nintendo would be turning a lot of heads. I also fail to see how characters would impact the unique spin on the game itself.
I also don't see how the series would be less special by having a bigger roster than the last game, if anything I would say the opposite true.

Exactly.

@skywake
So here's the fix; Include all the characters.

I'd also wager nobody played as Birdo, since she's practically never in any games. It's like if you asked someone a couple years ago "Who do you like more, Iron-man or Deadpool?", Iron-man would have won over-overwhelmingly because Deadpool was so obscure. Now I wager Deadpool would fair MUCH better. What I'm getting at with that is, Nintendo needs to do more with Birdo and the Kart games was one of the last lines of games she is in. Basically they are "reverse-Deadpooling" her.

Kinoen

skywake

@Kinoen
Birdo is in Mario Kart Wii. They would have plenty of stats on how many times people picked each character in that game. I don't think it's a coincidence that the baby characters returned and Birdo didn't.

And you can't add every character. The roster is pretty bloated as it is.

Edited on by skywake

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

Pod

@Kinoen
Characters are what players identify with, which is why you're personally upset about the absense of Birdo. So changing the roster IS a big deal in giving a game a personality.

The amount of work going into a character in Mario Kart is not exactly miniscule compared to Smash Bros. But it is indeed less work for the animator, and the characters don't require hitboxes at all.

Concerning whether you feel punished for Nintendo opting to create ten new characters that you might not care for, and then give us goop like pink gold Peach, I'm afraid that is always going to be the case in this discussion. Someone always feels left out. Imagine if you had a thing for Wiggler, King Boo, or Queen Bee. If you're inclined to feel like a victim, Nintendo's decisionmaking is bound to feel like punishment to you. I miss Birdo too. I hoped for a return with the DLC too. But I bought the game knowing my favorite pink egg spitter wasn't in there, and Nintendo doesn't owe me anything.

Personally I wouldn't compare Witcher games with 2D Mario and Mario Kart, as the idea of what constitutes content is quite different. And it's straight up incorrect to suggest that only one thing was changed between interations of New Super Mario Bros.

Returning to the concept of product identity, Nintendo can't resell Mario Kart 8 fifteen years from now on being the one with the Koopalings if every game after also has the koopalings. Likewise, Nintendo can't prioritize adding Paper Mario characters the next time around if they have to remake every single character from previous games, and even if they wanted to, that would mean people don't pay as much attention to the new additions.

As you say yourself, the game is not actually about the characters. So any proposal that makes characters more expensive as an item on the production list, or would take away attention from the new initiatives in the area is going to be throroughly scrutinized.

Pod

Kinoen

@skywake
I agreed that many people probably didn't pick Birdo, then explained why that is and how to fix it.

The roster is only bloated because each Koopaling is taking a slot along with the variations of Mario and Peach instead of them being skins.

@Pod
Point taken. Though I still fail to see how getting rid of characters makes a game special or unique.

Aye, which is frustrating knowing Smash can have a large roster with a variety of different characters with only a handful of clones, yet Mario Kart can't, despite Mario Kart selling better...

Honestly, I did miss Wiggler, KB and QB since at the very least they were characters and not "skins" of other racers.
I'm surprised Nintendo's decision making isn't costing them (to my knowledge), like with the Mario series being all the same with 1 thing being added and or taken away, Mario Kart with characters and tracks being taken and or given or through DLC and then we have Splatoon which is getting rid of some weapons and "supers" in the sequel. The only time where I can see this decision making being acceptable is for The Legend of Zelda since each game is a different Link and Zelda in a different time.
As for owing, I'm sorry to say I feel that way, but not about Birdo, this one has to do with me buying MK8 plus all the DLC for the Wii U, just for them to make a MK8 Game of the Year edition for the Switch for full price. It's bad enough when you have to re-buy The Legend of Zelda multiple times because the game doesn't link to your account so you have to re-buy it per console, but this is a $60 re-buy.

I'm comparing Developers. An Indie dev can cram so much content in their games but a Triple A juggernaut can't get all their characters from their previous KART game? There's so much less work on Nintendo's part in doing so in comparison.
I thought we agreed that those Mario games only changed 1 thing about themselves? Like that Year of Luigi game was the same as the Mario game but you play as Luigi.

Depression <- for making me think they are going to re-re-sell this game...Anyway, they can sell the game as "The game that FIRST had the Koopalings". Sure they can, they have the resources and manpower to do it, plus being the Publishers and Developers, they don't have a deadline set by someone else. I still feel that, for this example, keeping the Koopalings for the next game will not deter the impact Paper Mario characters would have.

In the grand scheme of MK, yes, but it's the fact of the matter that we have so many variation characters in this one as opposed to actual characters. Then add in the fact Birdo is appearing less and less in games overall and that doesn't help any.

Kinoen

Pod

@Kinoen
I think ultimately we agree here about a lot of things.

Though I think Nintendo won't and shouldn't include all previous characters in future MK games. I also think they shouldn't just keep adding to the roster in Smash Bros.

It's not about what's being taken away. It's about focusing on what's being added.

And we did't agree that they only change one thing in new Mario games. I didn't say one enemy or obstacle between games, but one new enemy obstacle introduced per level. Every single level, throughout all of the games. Even in NSMB, the level layouts are the actual content, and all the games have completely different levels. Over a hundred new "things" as a combination of obstacles, enemies, or power-ups, are introduced with each Mario game, and each given a unique level layout to showcase them.

I will give you New Super Luigi U, which was sort of an expansion pack. It didn't bring new obstacles or enemies, but it did have it's own levels, albeit shorter and more challenging. It was also sold at a reduced price. Personally, I think it should have been free, and because I am an angry old man, its existance as a paid item meant I opted out of buying NSMBU altogether.

The explanation for the variation characters in MK8 is naturally that they're less time consuming to make, when they already make all seven Koopalings and several other newcomers. They're boring. Yes. I'd rather have Birdo instead of more babies or metal heads too.

And as you say, with MK8 Delux just being the same game, we might end up having to wait another five years before we even have the possibility of seeing the ribbon-toting triassic again.

But that's part of what gives the three games that DID feature Birdo their own product identity. I sometimes want to play Mario Kart Wii again instead of 8 for several reason, one being the inclusion and design of some courses, but also because of Birdo. And it's not a bad thing for Nintendo that I want to replay and remember their past games.

Pod

Bass_X0

Yes. I'd rather have Birdo instead of more babies or metal heads too.

A comparison.

Adding Birdo is like writing a whole new book by hand without any references or resources as help.

Adding Metal Mario, Gold Mario and Pink Gold Peach is like photocopying two books then crossing out a few details then adding some extra notes.

Adding the babies are like writing two books, photocopying about 80% each of both books then giving the photocopied books new content to make five books.

Edited on by Bass_X0

Edgey, Gumshoe, Godot, Sissel, Larry, then Mia, Franziska, Maggie, Kay and Lynne.

I'm throwing my money at the screen but nothing happens!

Kinoen

@Pod
I second that.

That's looking like the only thing we disagree on.

That's easy enough to do, it's what I did when I called out the BS of each Koopaling (being new) taking a slot on the roster, along with the (new) variations of Mario and Peach. In fact, I'm focusing just as much on Birdo being out of the game game as I am on the Koopalings/Variations of Mario and Peach being in the game.

A minor disagreement. I personally stopped playing Mario because of how repetitive it got and how similar each game was to one another. Any tweaked enemies or obstacles are just minor to the point of irrelevance. Like the Cat Goombas in Mario 3D Land or World, they're still Goombas, I don't count them as a new enemy.

Good show, that's where I'm at with MK8D.

Which you still don't mind? Them purposely cutting corners to save money by making the game appear larger than it really is? At least Smash Bros excuse is they ran out of time so instead of no additional characters they opted for making clones which are more different from the original than Metal Mario is to Mario.

Yeah, when the Switch mini and XL come out.

I don't want to under-cut you since this is opinionated, but for me, the only Kart games that stick out is the original, Double-Dash and Mk7 (to an extent), the rest are border-line the same. (I know I haven't played D-D before, but it's safe to say no other Kart game did what it did.)

@Bass_X0
So you agree that Nintendo was lazy with this game? A game is suppose to be made for the players, not for what's easier on the Devs, if there's a middle ground, by all means take it. However, this was no middle ground.

Kinoen

Kimyonaakuma

@Kinoen
It's a little harsh to say that Nintendo was lazy with this game. They had would to create or heavily modify their engine for the Wii U which would have taken a long time even with the skilled devs that they have (I can't imagine the anti-gravity portions of courses would have been easy tbh). They would also have had to create completely new assets that would have enough detail to look good enough on an HD TV.

Even though they were probably pushed hard to try and release a game that would boost Wii U sales as soon as possible, they managed to make the best looking game in the series with a huge character roster and excellently made new courses. Mario Kart 8 is definitely the best if not one of the best games in the series and the only mistake they made was the battle mode, but at least it featured in some form even it just recycled the race courses into arenas.

On top of this they added DLC to the game, which as one of Nintendo's first attempts could have gone terribly wrong but it instead improved an otherwise great game and was worth it for the price. I think the 200cc mode and amiibo suits were free too so I guess that was a nice bonus?

Even though I don't personally own a switch or MK8D (yet!), they managed to improve the battle mode which was complained about in the original and they added even more characters.

......so after that mini rant I would say that Nintendo was not lazy with the original and managed to perform well under the circumstances that they had. On top of that they managed to do a good port to a new system while fixing the one area of the game that they had not already added more to or adjusted. If it has got to the point that our main problem is the absence of a few characters then I would say they have done well!

Kimyonaakuma

skywake

Kinoen wrote:

@skywake
I agreed that many people probably didn't pick Birdo, then explained why that is and how to fix it.

The roster is only bloated because each Koopaling is taking a slot along with the variations of Mario and Peach instead of them being skins.

People had just as much opportunity to pick Birds in Mario Kart Wii as any other character. Nintendo would have those stats. There's no conspiracy here against Birdo.

As for the so-called duplicate characters. Even if you exclude the costumes, babies and all the koopalings 8 still has the most characters of any Mario Kart. So I stand by what I said. They can't win. No matter how big the roster is there will be someone that complains.

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

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