Article updated - Sun 9th Feb, 2020 07:00 GMT: Earlier this week, in his latest Famitsu column, Masahiro Sakurai touched on Super Smash Bros. Ultimate having too many Fire Emblem characters and sword fighters. While he understands what the fanbase is talking about, he says it is time to "move on" as what's done is done.
Here's a more detailed translation, courtesy of Nintendo Everything:
I understand. First and foremost: there are too many Fire Emblem characters; and what’s more there are too many sword-users. It’s something that’s already been decided, though, so let’s move on – I should be thinking more about other things.
The Smash Bros. director further explains how his own "preferences" don't play a role in the fighter selection process and noted how Nintendo has a "larger" say in the decision-making. Byleth, for example, was added because the character is brand-new, which is a nice contrast to existing fighters with more extensive histories.
My preferences don’t play a role in which new fighters are added; Nintendo has a larger say in that decision and brings their thoughts to the table. At any rate, the “theme” for this character was the how much freshness they brought to the game. The fighters that we include in Smash Bros. tend to come from series that have histories. For instance, Dragon Quest’s “Hero,” “Banjo & Kazooie,” and Fatal Fury’s Terry Bogard all first appeared around 20 to 30 years ago – I want to include quite a wide breadth of characters.
To avoid Byleth becoming another character reliant on swordplay, Sakurai decided to consider the "techniques" this fighter could use. From here, he ended up implementing the leaders' Hero Relics from Fire Emblem: Three Houses:
as a workaround I considered what techniques the character should use and ended up implementing the three houses’ leaders’ “Hero Relics” as some of their moves to keep with elements present in Three Houses. For instance, though the character uses a bow all the same, how the player uses it can differentiate it quite a bit from say, Link or Pit’s bows.
What do you think about Sakurai's comments? Have you enjoyed playing as Byleth in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate? Leave a comment down below.
[source nintendoeverything.com]
Comments 136
Just stop giving them counters, and I'll stop counting.
Real talk though; FE is one of those games that, because its isolated stories (like Final Fantasy) there is a large breadth of characters, and in turn a large amount of people prefer various ones. It's really no surprise there is so many added, in spite of my distaste for many who aren't Ike.
Imagine if Nintendo had Final Fantasy instead... Hoo boy.
I just hope they aren’t thinking of adding any more FE characters to the roster. Move on to something else, for Pete’s sake! (Love you, Sakurai. You’re doing a great job; please take it easy this year!)
Okay then can we ask real question?How many pokemon and zelda characters we have right now?Because more than a Fire Emblem characters.So calm down and relax people.
Byleth doesn't play like a sword character so people need to chill.
Telling fanboys to "move on" is like asking the sun to set in the east.....
It’s sad he feels like he needs to respond to the mad children.
I read everything he had to say and it's pretty fair. The man is just doing his job along with his team regardless of his own opinions. Even still, he had genuine fun making the character as Byleth is one of the most unique characters in the history of Smash. So while he does acknowledge the number of FE reps it doesn't bother him because quantity isn't what's important; it's the gameplay and everything else.
In the end I hope people can stop hating on him over it and realize that you're not always gonna agree with something even from a company you like. Me? I enjoy Byleth a lot with how strong their moves are yet it'll take time to learn them. For a comparison, am I annoyed at how Joker is in Smash with no actual Persona on Switch? Yes. Am I annoyed at Persona being all Atlus talks about? Yes. Am I going to say he's a waste of a slot and that they're the worst company ever for including him in Smash? No.
At the end of the day, I just hope people can just ignore it. If you don't like a character then don't use them, but let others enjoy them and don't shame those who genuinely want to. It's just a video game at the end of the day and six more characters are coming. There's nothing to be raging over. Disappointment is fine, but flaming is a different story.
I just really don't get why people are mad... I'm just happy we got more characters, and I'm certainly happy that we're getting six more fighters, regardless of who it is
@JokerCK
Actually, Zelda has less characters than Fire Emblem.
Counting both original and clone.
Zelda has 3 originals and 3 clones.
FE has 5 originals and 3 clones.
I wish we get more F-Zero characters, I don't remember the last time we got a brand new one from that series like at all. I mean if you follow the actual game series there's actually over 50 of them, almost as big as the Super Smash Bros. 4 roster itself.
Hey, I've moved on, and will not be purchasing round 2 of DLC fighters
Asking people to not overreact and sulk on the internet is an impossible deed, mr. Sakurai.
I hope that he doesn't get hate for character decisions as the man is one of the most talented, legendary developers out there. He puts in a lot of passion into his games where any other director would have told Nintendo to "f*** off" by the time they asked him to make a third or fourth Smash Bros. game.
Sakurai deserves all the praise he gets, and surely the smarter people understand that crying over Byleth being one of the FIVE characters you bought the pass for is just childish. On the contrary, I know many many people who are enjoying Byleth as one of the genuinely unique fighters in Smash.
@retro_player_22
The problem is that there's zero source material to draw from. F-Zero characters are all racers and that's pretty much it. You don't even see them outside their vehicles and thus they have no idea how they would function in a fighter like Smash. Captain Falcon's moves were made up specifically for Smash Bros 64 for that exact reason. I don't mean to say that it'll never happen, but if they wanted to include someone else from F-Zero I think they would have by now.
i can only imagine the stress sakurai has to go through because of harassment he gets from nintendo's choices, the translation almost makes him sound more stern and fed up here. in the end, every dlc fighter added is just another cherry on top of this fantastic game so i hope him and the team can work peacefully on it
I'm normally not one to nitpick the work at Nintendo Life, but the heading looks as if it's meant to be a direct quote, and it's much more blunt and inconsiderate to the fans than what was actually said by Sakurai.
Edit: Looks like the title has been updated--much appreciated, @Liam_Doolan!
Thank you. Play the other 70 and some change characters.
@JR150 - Two things I am going to disagree with here.
1) Byleth is by no means the most unique, that's likely go to Ice Climbers as there is no duo team since. That doesn't mean he's bad or anything of the sort, just his theme could been Simon Belmont and pull off his entire kit.
2) Boy you need to play some GX. F-Zero GX was huge on being able to highlight more than just racing that some characters like Samurai Goroh, Black Bull and Deathborn get a lot of building from it. Not to mention history elaborated on them and then some.
And even if Sakurai "had to make it all up," so? He did the same to Fox, Ice Climbers, Isabelle and Wii Fit Trainer. So F-Zero is by no means an odd duck in the flock... Hell, throw Duck Hunt in that because now it's a pun.
I think it isn't a means of that he would have done a new F-Zero character by now, just simply not been an F-Zero for some time. It's not a highly popular franchise, so makes sense little ever comes out for requests, let alone content.
@JokerCK
Uhhh we got 6 zelda rep ,but 3 of those are link so not really an good comparison
While I appreciate all content and work that developers work on, I want to see more franchises get an opportunity for exposure. Look no further than FE itself. The franchise wasn't doing well in the west until Marth and Roy appeared in Melee. Personally, I would've never bothered with Xenoblade if Shulk had never appeared in Smash4. Same with Bayonetta. Those were amazing games that Im damn sure sold more copies because of Smash.
I am fine with Byleth. The only thing I keep saying that maybe they should have ended the fighter pass 1 with say banjo.
@GoldenSunRM - But no one in Zelda is really a Clone anymore. They've differed so much over time they're not genuine copies they used to be.
@Arnold-Kage - But what would that entail? There is literally 6 more dudes coming.
Everyone knew a new Fire Emblem character was coming but it's still disappointing when you think about all the other possible characters it could have been.
Means we will get alot more Fire emblem hahaha, no just kidding.
I love every extra DLC i hope we get more then only characters in the future a whole new storymode would be a cool add and i would buy it for sure no matter the price.
@NintonicGamer
Exactly i expected we would get at least one fire emblem character even tho i disliked it. Byleth is still welcome
They should add some more lesser known Nintendo characters like Doshin, chibi robo or the dude from pullblox...
@Paraka
1. I never said "Byleth is the #1 absolute most unique character in Smash history" I said "one of the most." As in high up there in terms of being unique because nobody else uses a bow, spear, axe, and swordwhip all in the same moveset. But not the absolute #1, that's not what I said.
And Rosalina & Luma and Duck Hunt Duo (as called in EU regions) would like a word.
2. Fair enough. Don't lose hope then.
The theme was "Freshness added to the game" (FE, i presume), so to showcase that, they put another Fire Emblem character into Smash, i'm not quite sure about the logic there...
I get they’re are a lot of Fire Emblem characters, too many I mean, but the sword fighter thing is weird to me.
@MysticX
Because Byleth plays like no other FE character, or anyone else for that matter. They're a fresh face no different than the other 4 DLC. Sure it's from an already represented franchise, but when you look at the character as a character, it still applies. If they added a new Pokemon, I'd be saying the same thing.
I'd give half of these Fe characters to get Frederick
@JR150 - Rosalina is a zoning ability to control Luma, Duck Hunt cannot be separated from one another (and technically it's three people, cause apparently the lightgun is part of that troupe).
Neither play like IC, though. However we came close.
I have no problems with fe characters. After all fe has a lot of characters, but why on earth has it always to be a lord/swordfighter. Fe has Lance users, axe users, bow users, mounted units, sorcerers, manaketes. At least they made byleth a weapon master.
@sleepinglion and that's entirely within the realm of proper audience behaviour.
@tech7
Because that's usually what the protagonists of FE games use/specialize in. The protagonist of a game is the one who represents the game in Smash. There's a reason why Shulk is playable and not Riki. Or Luminary from DQ and not Jade. Or Joker but not Ryuji. Or Cloud but not Barret or Tifa. The protagonist represents the game. Byleth is a much more widely known face than say, Bernadetta. Same as how Marth is more widely known than Cain or Caeda because he's the face of Shadow Dragon. There's no way around it, I'm afraid. Not unless they make the main Lord of a next game not use a sword but at this point nobody wants more FE period so there's nothing we can do. It is what it is. ¯(ツ)/¯
@JokerCK
I think Pokemon is also overrepresented in Smash, but there are also 8 Fighters, the same amount as FE (now), not more.
But the Pokemon are very different to each other, visually and in fighting style. So that‘s another problem with FE characters: They are (mostly) too similar.
Just give us Rex and all will be forgiven. No more third party adds, we like Nintendo characters, not has been charaters.
As been stated previously by other comments, Fire Emblem has a lot of characters in it’s games. Because of that it makes sense for there to be a bunch in order to make sure that every fan can have that character from whatever game they like the most.
My issue lies more in the marketing department. It’s common knowledge that Nintendo added in Corrin in Smash 4 for marketing with Fates. This makes sense, since Nintendo and Intelligent Systems probably didn’t want to have another potentially series ending disaster like they would’ve had with Awakening if it sold poorly. However, for Byleth, it makes significantly less sense to try and market Three Houses, a game that had come out 6 months prior and was the highest selling FE in America and one of the fastest selling in the series. Three Houses was already popular, Nintendo didn’t need to market it to the one group of people who they knew would react negatively to it. This isn’t to mention that FE Heroes is by far Nintendo’s mobile game that has yielded the highest profit, unless you count Pokémon GO.
There’s no reason for Nintendo to baby Fire Emblem anymore. It’s found it’s audience, it’s made it’s money, Three Houses even won the Player’s Choice for Game of the Year last year at the Game Awards. Nintendo shouldn’t treat it as a tiny series that they need to advertise for in Smash to get an extra 3 people to buy a copy of the latest game. There are so many other smaller game series that Nintendo owns that they could advertise for with DLC. Games like Xenoblade, The Wonderful 101, or whatever else they have cooking up for us over the next couple of years. But Nintendo keeps showing off Fire Emblem for no real reason. Heck, their constant advertising of Fire Emblem in Smash has probably created far more opposition to the series than it has interest in it.
That doesn’t mean I object to putting FE characters into Smash, but I think that their place should be earned like so many other series’ characters have been.
@mesome713 imagine thinking "three characters who have had new, popular games in the past 3 years" count as has-beens
@vanYth
I don't think it's fair to count clones as individual characters. Pokemon has:
Pikachu, Pichu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Lucario, Greninja, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, and Incineroar.
(First off, one could also argue that Pichu/Pikachu are clones. Lucario, Greninja, and Mewtwo are also very similar in that they throw energy balls and have counters.)
Meanwhile Fire Emblem has:
Marth/Lucina. Roy/Chrom. Ike. Robin. Corrin. Byleth. They officially consider echo fighters as the same character hence why Marth is #21 and Lucina is #21E. Roy is #25 and Chrom is #25E. They purposefully did this so people wouldn't complain because you even have the option to layer them on top of each other in the menu making them no different than the Koopalings or Hero.
With his in mind, Pokemon has 10 (mostly) unique characters.
Fire Emblem has 5 unique characters with two (Chrom and Lucina) acting as skins and Roy acting as the Luigi to Marth's Mario.
Thus Fire Emblem is represented less than Pokemon. Not to mention Pokemon has way more stages, spirits, music tracks, and the Pokeball item contains dozens of Pokemon. Meanwhile, the only item in the entire game from the Fire Emblem series is the Killing Edge which makes its debut in Ultimate meaning this is the first and only Smash game in the series with a Fire Emblem item and it's just one. So no, it's not overrepresented because representation is more than just who's playable.
When you take time to actually understand the roster and how Nintendo set it up, it's not that big of a deal as people claim.
Yeah the character was a bit of an underwhelming reveal. I don't know much about the Fire Emblem games. However, I got a chance to try out Byleth last weekend at a friend's place and he plays (to me) a lot more fun than the other swordies.
I would purchase if they ever put DLC on sale. Won't hold my breath for that, but I was getting a bit bored of Smash. It at least had me interested in playing and reminded me it's still a fun game. Just a fun game. We should all remember that when the next character is revealed.
@somebread More than just three. They're not iconic, nor Nintendo. They're wasted space where more Nintendo characters should be.
I think they should've gone with a Pokemon-trainer style approach and made it Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude. Fire Emblem fans would be more than happy, and not a sword in sight! Does it make any thematic sense for the game? No! Does it matter? Even less so!
@kenyowa
That would've taken far too much time to animate because that's three characters to voice, give taunts, and make with very limited time on their hands. Sakurai got a very early version of the game so that unfortunately wouldn't have been possible anyway because he likely didn't see them all.
Plus there's a reason why Cloud is playable and not Tifa, Joker and not Ryuji, and Little Mac but not Aran Ryan. Nintendo picks the main player-character, friend. Best of both worlds I say. Byleth uses all three of their main weapons with skins based on them. Plus the sword is mostly used as a whip and barely acts as a regular sword anyway.
(That would also mean three more Fire Emblem characters which...yeah nobody wants that.)
@ToonStuff - Let me ask this;
If people are claiming Byleth is to promote FE:TH, then one would agree the sales should see a considerable rise, or spike, right?
What happens then if TH doesn't see a growth relative to the reveal/inclusion of the character? Did it fail?
@mesome713 well, terry is generally after ryu in terms of "iconic 2D fighting game front character" worldwide and you can play a fair amount of the games he's starred in on nintendo consoles, hero is the de-facto RPG character (even if not specifically DQ11 hero) and you can play every single main-series dq game on a nintendo console, banjo-kazooie is weirdly iconic in america and was exclusively a nintendo-console character until his last game
the only characters i can see that with are byleth, who isn't iconic due to existing for about a year or two but is nintendo, and joker may be iconic but is not exactly a nintendo character (outside of PQ2)
@JR150 I'm aware of that. But since fe already has many protagonists representing the franchise I think that choosing a more obscure character would benefit both franchises. Smash since it would bring more diversity and fe since it shows more what the characters have to offer. I mean piranha plant is hardly a main character of the Mario franchise.
I don't care about too many FE characters. I care that 80% of them are basically the same.
Variety would not have hurt.
Which is I like Robin and Byleth
@tech7
It kind of is in a way. Piranha Plants have been in almost every Mario title with dozens of subspecies and boss characters derived from said species. Petey Piranha and Dino Piranha are just some examples. Sure it's not a protagonist but it's a major component of Mario's general enemy cast rivaling Goombas and Koopas even.
And sure I see that. But the fact of the matter is that Nintendo wants the bigger names in here. Have you ever considered why Star Fox and Kirby's casts haven't expanded? Outside of Fox/Falco/Wolf and Kirby/Meta/Dedede the rest of those casts are just too unknown to get in, not unless they received new entries with newer characters. It's the same reason why Ness and Lucas are here but Ninten from OG Mother 1/Earthbound Beginnings is not. He's just too unknown/dead of a character to try and market to people in 2020.
With that said, hopefully people take Byleth as a beam of hope for othy first party DLC. The franchises I just mentioned, along with Xenoblade Chronicles and Punch-Out could certainly use it.
@liljmoore
That's kinda wrong when you consider Ike, Corrin, Robin, and Byleth are all unique compared to Marth/Lucina and Roy/Chrom who have Echo Fighters (which are glorified skins no different than the Koopalings and Hero) and total out to less characters than the more unique ones.
@somebread You just named a bunch of has beens which was my complaint. New gamers don't care for these non Nintendo characters, they don't even know them. And Joker is a joke. It's a niche game that isn't even on Nintendo.
@JokerCK I bet a Gen 8 Pokemon will be added to Promote SW/SH. 😅Given that Nintendo is making the calls, I imagine corporate aspects are very important factors.
@JokerCK Okay then let me ask you this: Lets take pikachu as being the original character. HOW many characters(from the pokemon cast)look and act the same as pikachu?. Link,Ganon and Zelda come from one series. Do they all have almost the same moveset? No, no they dont.
@Paraka In the end, Three Houses still succeeded, selling better than most FE’s without Smash’s help. That’s pretty much the entire point of my comment, that Fire Emblem doesn’t need Smash to succeed anymore.
When it comes to the DLC itself though, I would say that it failed in more ways than it succeeded. Nintendo is obviously still making money off the DLC sales, but for Three Houses sales to remain the same proves one of the points I made in my comment. I said that Nintendo advertising Three Houses to the Smash fanbase, a large portion of which has grown tired of FE characters in Smash, is a fruitless endeavor. Many Smash fans have either already played Three Houses (like myself) or have grown so tired of FE reps that they don’t even want to bother with playing the actual games. If the game doesn’t sell more because of the marketing, then it failed. There is no reason to continue advertising to a base that either already plays the games or just outright refuses to play them no matter what.
@mesome713 considering that, again, in the past three-four years we've had
-persona 5, albeit not on switch, which joker originates from, AND persona q2 (and technically strikers and TMSFE#)
-dragon quest 11 AND dragon quest 11 S, which hero originates from, AND dragon quest builders 1 AND 2 AND DQ8 3DS AND ports of the first three games, where two of the other heroes came from
-the ACA ports of nearly every single KOF and FF game, which Terry came from, as well as KOFXIV on PS4/PC
-three houses, which byleth obviously came from
it's hard to say any of these characters aren't "new" besides banjo, who hasn't had a game in forever, and even he's kind of well-known in america, which seems to be the only place that exists in your mind judging by how you wrote off terry and the hero as has-beens
also, in what universe is persona 5 not as niche as xenoblade chronicles 2?
You're taking the "move on" way out of context, he means to change the topic since it's not worth elaborating, not for fans to let it slide.
Really, they could toss in a literal non-specific piece of sh-... uh, paper, with a full moveset, and it would have its 'fans' due to the sheer ridiculousness and people flocking over it just because it would upset other people. I really feel like this is partly the reason why a good amount of Byleth's 'fans' like playing this character. (Not saying it's the majority, or half, or even a quarter, but you know what I mean, and you know who you are.) Same goes for certain other characters though, it's not exclusive to Byleth.
Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that of course, but I do feel like this could be fixed somewhat by not oversaturating a certain series as much as Fire Emblem has been. And I think it's just a little bit worse with Byleth than it is for a character than with, say, a character like Wii Fit Trainer, because Byleth is essentially more 'expensive' than Wii Fit Trainer, due to being DLC, aka extra paid content. I figure that's probably the wrong way to look at it though, but that's what it feels like, y'know?
Sakurai is right though, it is time to move on. It wasn't his decision to include Byleth, but he made do with what he had, and I think he did an excellent job differentiating Byleth from the other members of the Fire Emblem cast with the tools available, and I respect him a lot for that! He really did make the character fun to play, even if I still don't really agree with the character choice.
I'd play Fire Emblem over Smash any day. Far more entertaining.
I don't hate Smash, it's just not that fun for me. It's just a party game for me, I have no interest in the competitive aspects.
Yes, let's move on from Fire Emblem characters. Though I hope at least one more sword user is permitted. Isaac from Golden Sun.
I can understand where Sakurai's coming from.
@Heavyarms55 it's not really an either or situation though. Enjoy both, enjoy neither, enjoy what you like.
Please just let this be the last Fire Emblem Character EVER
First we need Lyn or Hector, then we can stop FE characters 😁
I totally get the sentiment but i hope he understands that this entire "move on" thing works two ways.
We will move on from this topic if they move on from adding more Fire Emblem characters.
Because if we get one more Fire Emblem fighter then there certainly will not be any moving on and the discontent will grow a lot louder.
All I can think is how cool it would be if we had a soulcalibur style, weapons based fighter set in the fire emblem universe...
@thaimbomb Totally correct. Byleth's sword acts like a swift whip. Also, the other weapons create a lot of diversity. I don't even see Byleth as a sword character.
Even though Ryu Hyabusha has a sword, I would still like him in with his NES projectiles.
"At any rate, the “theme” for this character was the how much freshness they brought to the game."
Splatoon has many fresh characters (yes intended) and an Arms rep would have been nice. Anything but FE honestly.
@mesome713 So if these characters are "has beens" to you that "new gamers wouldn't care about" (even though someone pointed out that almost all of them have had stellar games as of late), then I would love to hear your take on:
And this list can go on. Your logic about smash having "has beens" that new gamers wont recognize is fundamentally flawed, because newer people might look into franchises they never heard about, and the majority of people that will pick up smash are "older gamers" who will appreciate smash for the celebration of gaming that it is.
Now, if you dont like the DLC characters that's perfectly fine. We all like and dislike various things. But your reason just doesnt make sense to me
@KoopaTheQuick yeah good call, the pilotwings characters would be nice.
(So would a new pilotwings with them in!)
People have gotta get over it. Over 70 characters and some still kick and scream cause a series is over represented. It’s not even the end either, we’re getting six more. I’m at the point where I don’t even know or care who they can add anymore. There’s already so many characters and video games represented. The six characters we get are just extra fluff to me at this point.
@KoopaTheQuick A PW64 character would have been awesome. Lark probably would have had the best chance as he/Nester had his own game (albeit a Virtual Boy game). It's too bad PW64 has never seen a re-release to this day.
See the problem isn't inherently too much representation from a single game. I say this because I'd welcome plenty more new Pokemon fighters. But see the difference here is the amount of variance between fighters. Every Pokemon fighter is unique (save Pichu), and there are so many different possible other Pokemon they could choose from that would both fight and look incredibly differently. There is some room for that with Fire Emblem fighters, but not much. Never mind how similar Marth, Roy, Ike, Lucina, Chrom, and now Byleth all look to each other, all those fighters except for Byleth play very similarly. Only 3 fighters are really unique in terms of how they fight: Robin, Corrin, and now Byleth, but only 2 of them even look all that different in Robin and Corrin.
Fire Emblem has just become a boring well to continue to go back to simply because the series by it's very nature never really had a huge variety of drastically different kinds of characters to look to compared to franchises like Pokemon on Mario.
I've been trying, with every iteration, to get into Smash games since the N64...but I just don't get it. I've probably put 10 hours into Smash Ultimate but I simply don't enjoy anything about the controls or gameplay. I just can't figure out what I'm missing.
Admittedly Byleth is nothing like the other FE characters, but that doesn't make him/her any less boring. I would have been happy to see some more varied representation from the series, instead of main characters all the time, why not a magician like Tharja or a character that mainly uses a lance or a bow?
There's definitely too much sword action going on. Outside of FE, you have Link(s), Shulk, Ganondorf's smash attacks, Mii Swordfighter...I'm sure I'm forgetting others. Other kinds of weaponry do exist. Such as whips (so glad Richter/Simon are in the game).
Anyway, as Sakurai said, we should all move on. I'm looking forward to the next round of DLC...and glad there's going to be more.
@Hordak If it doesn't appeal to you, it doesn't appeal to you. I will say, it is a series that is exponentially more fun when played against friends together in local multiplayer. Beyond that though, the initial appeal to me was as a kid was that you essentially have a huge selection of iconic characters to choose from to play a 2.5D platformer where the goal instead of to reach an end is to defeat your enemies.
To be in that timeline where Fire Emblen died.
@idrawrobots lol you mean the "mad children" who buy/play his game?
I love Fire Emblem, but for crying out loud, it doesn't deserve 10% of the Smash roster. Here's hoping Byleth is the last one. Enough already.
Didn't he say that Nintendo gave him a list and he got to choose from it?
It's gottwn to the point where my brain literally doesn't even try to distinguish them anymore. I didn't even register that the picture up top was Byleth. It literally could have been Marth and my brain would have had the same electric response.
Had a girlfriend cheat on me and during an argument we had after the fact, I remember she distinctively said "Its happened, its over, lets move on".
Its a tactic that people with guilty conciousses do to avoid scrutiny from the people that they wronged. He's literally telling people to stop complaining cuz its already happened. Imagine if everyone had that attitude about the sonic design? Get bent Sakurai. You passive aggressive turd. You should go work for the writers of Teen Titans Go, you'd fit right in.
It will probably be less of a problem with the next Smash game since likely it won't have every character. If they didn't include every character in this one it would likely have been a couple of the sword ones, maybe a couple of the more unique ones like Robin and Corrine and then Byleth's inclusion would have been better received. I mean they did a good job making Byleth unique in my opinion but that opinion comes without experience since I didn't buy any of the DLC.
I honestly think Byleth is a good a logical inclusion. Keep in mind though the Fire Emblem characters were probably meant to cycle out more with each iteration, as in leave the older ones out and fill that spot with a character from a newer Fire Emblem game. That's my thought.
I think the decision to load up SSB with soldiers and martial artists is disappointing. I like the idea of cute cartoon characters beating each other senseless. Having Fire Emblem and Street Fighter characters kind of spoils the joke. Of course they did add Banjo and Piranha Plant, so I guess you can say the covered all the bases. Still, I'd trade a few of the human soldiers for Rayman and Bubsy in a heart beat.
Basically, he's a dev doing what he's told. You can only argue so many points, but the higher-ups often have more clout. I can definitely relate. -_-
For the next Smash Bros game, I wouldn't be surprised if every Fire Emblem character outside of Byleth is cut and replaced by the cast of Three Houses (Claude, Dimitri, Edelguard, Seiros, etc) or the cast of the next Fire Emblem game.
Hardcore Smash fans would be happy by the trimming of sword users, and casual Smash fans probably can't tell the difference between one Fire Emblem character and the other.
They can add as many as they want if it's done like Louie and Alph
There might even be another character pack, depending on how long Nintendo supports the Switch.
Well yeah... there are too many.
I know this is silly, but i always wanted Sakurai to include Star Man from the NES Pro Wrestling game.
Baby Yoda (The Child) for 2nd round of DLC!
This guy never wants to be accountable for anything wrong he does. Why do people kiss his feet nonstop?
@Whispy Those are for Nintendo fans and others to learn about. It's the history of Nintendo, and we need more of it. No more third party junk unless it's Mikey Mouse, Fortnite, Batman, Marvel, etc or something that will help sell Smashbros. These characters don't help sell Smash, Nintendo doesn't need small fry.
@mesome713 there are characters from Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Crash Bandicoot, Mortal Kombat, Assassins Creed, and others that could have drawn even more customers to the product. So far 2 out of these 5 are treated like 2nd class citizens.
@backup368 I say go big or go home. In this dlc case, they should have went home and added Nintendo characters imo. If you can't get the big boys, get your own.
@backup368 I get being disappointed at the time of the announcement but how can you possibly look at Smash Ultimate and its glorious roster and demand an apology from the creator? You need to work on yourself, I'm sure this pessimism is evident in several other aspects of your character and it's pushing people away.
@Whispy Not sure all those analogies really work. Olimar was added to Brawl back in 2008, when Pikmin was very much alive and well. Little Mac was released with Smash 4, which came out only five years after the last Punch Out. A big new Metroid game is in development for the Switch. K Rool has been retired for a while, but he was the main villain in four different popular DK games. Rosalina was playable in 3D World (as well as other Mario spinoffs), she's clearly not a one-hit wonder.
Pac-Man is a huge gaming icon, and most of the others are novelty characters that they put in as a joke.
Who said this on the other topic, seriously, I better not want to say something bad, but seriously, seriously, is this serious?!
"""I feel like a character like Byleth, where their inclusion is clearly about promotion for another game more than anything else, should probably be free DLC rather than paid. The paid DLC slots should be more about characters who will be fun and interesting and add something a little different to the mix."""
As I mentioned in another post, I don't even want to comment anymore, but sometimes fanaticism is worse than Nintendo's latest "unfortunate" events and how I would like to defend fans when others say unpleasant things, but like this comment, I don't know how to defend it ..., oh well...
@mesome713
Wait, Dragon Quest, the Famicom's and Super Famicom's second best selling franchise, behind only Mario.
The franchise where every main game (published on a Nintendo console) has been published by Nintendo in the west plus the spinoffs.
And the franchise where Iwata personally helped translate the first game.
It isn't apparently part of Nintendo history? What?
Oh I guess it isn't a POPULAR enough third party series to be in Smash. The one that's sold MILLIONS in Japan alone! I guess Batman with very popular games on Nintendo systems such as.... uh that Sunsoft one.... or that spinoff to the Arkahm series on Wii U and I'm sure there's... a few others?
And do I really have to make a case for Banjo Kazooie, where the two most popular installments were funded and published by Nintendo and were made by a company (that at the time) owned by Nintendo? Or Terry, who's appeared on many games over the years on Nintendo platforms? But, I guess Doshin the Giant is a better choice because "he's owned by Nintendo"?
@Toy_Link Ask the youth which they want, some has been Hero from Dragon Quest, or the great Batman. It's a no brainer mate. I'm not trying to insult the Hero dlc addition, I'm just saying if you gonna go that rout, give me Spring Man, or Rex from Xenoblade.
Dragon Quest isn't bigger than Nintendo, but Minecraft would be a nice boost. Spiderman would be epic. I'm not talking third party video games alone. I'm talking iconic figures who make you want to buy a game. Give me John Wick!
@SpaceboyScreams I didn't say he should apologize. I don't expect him to. He knew his decision would upset people but he made it anyway. If any other developer said this, fans would be outraged. This is terrible PR & he did it before with Hero's RNG problems. If you want an example of fighting game DLC with no hassle at all, theres MK11.
@Euler I agree with you 100% and considered a lot of that when typing that message. The point was that if, as mesome said, these DLC characters are "has beens" that new gamers wouldn't know, then I can also technically argue that for other characters as well. I felt that it wasn't important if they were added at their peak or not, in the same way that they don't seem to care for the legacy (most) of these DLC characters hold.
Then again it seems to be a moot point to discuss considering a later response from mesome said, "No more third party junk unless it's Mikey Mouse, Fortnite, Batman, Marvel, etc or something that will help sell Smashbros."
[That's where my two cents for this conversation end, so you don't have to read the rest]
In fact, this got me thinking that if we define "new gamers" as those who only started playing with a switch and did no other research whatsoever, and only played Nintendo's biggest games, they would know a considerable amount of the cast (comments in parentheses used for emphasis):
Which is a very solid start, almost half of the cast I believe, and playing Smash might even make them try out different games they have never heard of, or learning more about the ones that they've seen very little of or only in the spin-offs.
@mesome713
"Ask the youth which they want, some has been Hero from Dragon Quest, or the great Batman."
When has Smash ever been a popularity contest? If it was Goomba and the old man laying on the ground in Viridian City would've made it in before most of the cast.
And DQ hero a has-been? DQ is a lucrative franchise in Japan, the latest installment has sold millions, the mobile app DQ Walk has been a big success,, and the franchise makes millions of dollars of merchandise. It's quite literally a multi-billion dollar franchise.
"'m just saying if you gonna go that rout, give me Spring Man, or Rex from Xenoblade."
If we're making this a popularity contest again, DQ11 sold more than both those games combined. Hell, DQ11 sold more in 2 days in Japan alone more than Xenoblade 2 did in 2 years worldwide.
And I'm 100% sure that most kids would choose Batman over those 2.
"Dragon Quest isn't bigger than Nintendo"
You're comparing apples to oranges here. It's like saying "Warner Bros. is bigger than Frozen!", sure Nintendo is overall more popular than DQ, but most of Nintendo's franchises are less popular than DQ except for Mario and Pokemon.
". I'm talking iconic figures who make you want to buy a game. Give me John Wick!"
Weren't you complaining about third party characters not having anything to do with Nintendo?
If we're making this a popularity franchise again, the John Wick movie franchise has only made less than 600 million dollars with 3 movies. DQ is a multi-billion dollar franchise.
I love Byleth please add more Fire Emblem characters
@backup368 Except Hero's RNG quickly became a non-issue once everyone stopped crying about it after the first month because we found out he's still middle tier at best and his Menu is really easy to avoid. I otherwise agree that Byleth was a bad decision or at least announced at a horrible time but I also believe that the publishers are in control of the game before Sakurai, you're right that he probably knew it was a bad idea so it's clear that he was forced to do it anyways.
TBH, the biggest problem with Byleth was that he was used to cap off the 1st batch of DLC fighters. Banjo or Terry would have been better, one being a return of a retired icon, and the other being integral to fighting game history, including the creation of Smash. Even if that wasn't the case, the reveal was pretty lackluster in itself because there wasn't any buildup to the reveal, we see them at the start, then get a whole trailer that, frankly, could have been cut in half if Sakurai just made female Byleth a footnote in the announcements.
Otherwise, I like Byleth just fine. I understand there were marketing reasons, though I hope Sakurai enjoyed working on Byleth, because I really appreciate how he tried to differentiate them. Breaking the theme of counters (which I always suspected was connected to the combat system in FE, but never knew for sure) and including the weapons from Three Houses was cool.
Going to be grabbing the 2nd DLC pack, and with the current track record and lack of FE characters in the immediate future, I'll probably enjoy it. Even if I'm not hot on a character, there are only two who I don't really want, with the most likely one being Tracer from Overwatch-if Crash or Spyro get snubbed as an Activision representative, I'll be genuinely angry.
@SpaceboyScreams To certain character like Villager, he's practically broken, all you need to do is get Bounce and it practically handicaps him because most of Villager's attacks that are of any use are projectiles.
"I otherwise agree that Byleth was a bad decision or at least announced at a horrible time but I also believe that the publishers are in control of the game before Sakurai,"
Nintendo's marketing is enough to promote their software. Having Mario in the game isn't to promote a Mario game, for example, it's to attract people who are fond of Mario to the Smash Bros. product.
@backup368
""Nintendo's marketing is enough to promote their software. Having Mario in the game isn't to promote a Mario game, for example, it's to attract people who are fond of Mario to the Smash Bros. product.""
+1 in this part.
Good thing he adressed this issue, a sign that he is not oblivious to what Smash fans think (despite some ignorants who think this is a non-issue and that we are a minority).
Hopefully this is the last FE character we see for this game and we can get ACTUAL requested characters soon.
I wouldn't see the problem with the quantity of Fire Emblem characters if most of them weren't clones (Chrom/Lucina) or generic avatars devoid of personality (Robin/Corrin/Byleth).
For a series with such a rich and colourful cast of characters, it's very disappointing that they keep choosing the "safest" of the bunch. Likewise with Pokémon and the evolved starters (Charizard, Incineroar, Greninja). Funnily enough, Gens III and V have no Smash reps whatsoever.
@xVAKAR1ANx Chom, Lucina and Corrin can pick a god and pray!
@Andrew5678 technically there were marketing reasons for every character except Banjo though. Even some of the characters in the main roster were included for marketing. Joker had Persona five scramble coming out, Hero was revealed in the same direct as the Dragon Quest 11 release date and Terry had the King of fighters releasing on the eshop. Even back in the smash 4 days Shulk was used as marketing. No one knew who he was back when he got revealed, but then they released Xenoblade Chronicles 3D a couple months later. Who knows, they might do that again for the definitive edition ( hope it happens!). But anyways I just wanted to point that out. You could even say that smash is a big fat advertisement. At the end of the day it’s just business and there’s nothing we can do about it.
@backup368 Villager has plenty of moves that aren't projectiles that you can use for the few seconds Bounce is in effect. Spam Nair or your tilts or something. Everything else you're saying, again, I agree.
The "freshness" of a magical blue-haired medieval sword-weidling animé doll that nobody knows, you say?
As a new (purchased yesterday) struggling smash player I think the roster is overall great. I did think there were quite alot of FE characters as I was just browsing the roster and looking in to the dlc tho. I'd love to see a Goron in smash tho. I think the tock based specials and overall different look of a goron would be good for the series.
Also if there is anyone that wants to give me some basic pointers to improve my game then feel free as I'm struggling big time 😂
@Paraka
Simple pack one ended for many with an pop rather then an bang.
I honestly can’t tell any of the FE characters apart. Whenever people use FE fighters in Smash it just seems like there’s a bunch of random anime nobodies running around the screen.
They hog up the menu too, could be so many classic gaming faces, like Shantee, Streets of Rage, etc, but instead we have a massive roster of generic characters nobody cares about. If it’s for marketing purposes, it’s failed there too because it hasn’t made me want to retry any FE games.
The huge roster of FE characters in Smash brings the whole game down a little.
@boxyguy Can you blame him? Even if Byleth was not his initial choice or was one of Nintendo's choosing he still put a lot of heart and soul into the character. He could have easily made Byleth a Marth or Ike clone, but instead, they are one of the best new inclusions in the series with a fun and inventive moveset. He sounds stern because he's clearly frustrated at the fanbase who are so demanding that they jump at his throat if their "choice" does not make it in. He reminds me a lot of Hideki Kamiya in these comments where he is laying down the law and just saying 'it is what it is, if you don't like it too bad.'
@Toy_Link Don't bother I find a lot of Smash fans are ignorant of franchises just because "anime" as if this is the late-90's and only nerds like anime-looking games. Dragon Quest is by far one of the biggest franchises in Japan, and I'm not talking about just video games. That was a choice to appeal to the Japanese consumers and to try to give DQ some North American notoriety. And based on DQXI's reception, in general, the franchise is only going to get more popular in North America.
I also find it funny that the same people decrying Hero, and the Fire Emblem characters are some of the first begging for Rex and Pyra (Xenoblade 2), or Dante (DMC), or even stranger Lyn from... Fire Emblem?... If the issue is just movesets I have to ask if they even played Byleth or Hero? Because they are some of the most unique characters in the game as far as movesets go.
@oh_no_melon So you're not going to use her because she looks "lame" even if she has possibly the best moveset in the game? Sure complaining is fine, but sending death threats to Sakurai is not letting a voice be heard. The man has been harassed for years by Smash fans and he's probably just really frustrated at this point. And having Byleth in Smash is not a crime that should be punished. They're a character from the best selling Fire Emblem to date and their move set is exceptionally fresh and infuses new life into the meta. They're a fantastic character that Sakurai had a clear love and joy presenting to the fans. He loves Fire Emblem and was probably thrilled to get to play the game early to create this character and fans took a big dump on him because of its not "INSERT CHARACTER HERE" that real Smash fans want... even if they can never agree who that is...
I've never been one to criticize fandoms as toxic and ungrateful, but we got 4 exceptional characters from 3rd parties and 1 Fire Emblem character who is now a favourite of people who used them. And Sakurai was rather upfront when the DLC Pack was announced to only get it if you want to support him and his team and don't mind who gets pick or wait till they are all announced so you can pick who you want. It's not his fault that fans set unrealistic expectations and have created a hype culture around a game to the point that it won't matter what he or his team do if a character these "fans" don't want then its a "crime" is just disgusting.
@oh_no_melon It's cool. I get what you mean it was just a joke, it's just hard to tell nowadays with Smash fans. Sorry I got heated I mained Little Mac for the longest time because I just liked Little Mac!
I get annoyed when fans pretend like there is some clear list of characters that fans want in Smash. When in reality it's closer to a big grab-bag of I guess that's a popular choice. I know my brother was hyped for Byleth and he did not care one bit for Joker, or Terry. Though if Smash ever gets Kiryu from Yakuza that's a top choice for me... so I doubt that will ever happen.
Its why I really liked that one RelaxAlax video where he tried to guess the final Smash DLC character and it was like a list of 50 characters. It was rather amusing!
@SpaceboyScreams He's slow and predictable without his projectiles. Nair is no match for Hero's speed and range. His tilts lack range.
Wow you guys are a bunch of Nintendo Shills. We don't need to defend a bad choice just because it's Nintendo.
Would be nice if something like Chrono Trigger could get some representation - even just one character.
@Arnold-Kage - But they're not done yet, so ending is moot.
@Cheesydonut I understand, and I respect the fact that it's necessary for the game. While it is for marketing purposes, having the most popular characters does help with the fact that Smash is a celebration of gaming, and I don't mind Sakurai focusing on recent characters for games. Fire Emblem, Dragon Quest, and Pokemon function as a series by constantly making new characters, so there's plenty of potential for both fighters, and marketing.
Like I said, there are hardly any characters I would actively dislike, and plenty that would make good business sense, without bringing up the question "why are they here?" from gamers. Crash was a big 90's icon, and was almost Sony's answer to Sonic and Mario. Rayman is Ubisoft's most recognizable character, with very good games, and even if he doesn't have an upcoming title, getting him in just helps Nintendo's relationship with Ubisoft. Spring Man, Rex and Pyra, and Ring Fit Trainer would be great picks to push recent big games made for Switch. A retro character could be picked both for their legacy, and just to be a unique pick, like with Pit, R.O.B. and Mr.Game and Watch.
Granted, this is a very optimistic view on the possibilities from someone who's easy to please, but I don't think any of it sounds unrealistic.
@backup368 Again, you only have to wait a tiny while, it's not like Bounce lasts the whole match. You're exaggerating the problem.
@Paraka I still wish we had Cecil Harvey instead of Cloud Strife.
@marandahir - I'd rather get something more... "encompassing" to the franchise as a whole.
Moogle, Chocobo, Black Mage. Something along those lines, probably would have came with more music too.
@SpaceboyScreams LOL it actually lasts a significantly long time. It's not like any other reflector move in the game where it lasts for half of a second. Sakurai doesn't care he screwed this character up. Any other develop would fix it. Great leader we got in charge.
@Paraka
The end of pack one. This is pack 2.
At this point I think a lot of people are simply getting tired of Fire Emblem and it's fans.
When I saw the reveal, I was disappointed but I immediately remembered that Sakurai stated in a previous direct that Nintendo picked the DLC, not his team. So Sakurai should not be getting any hate, he warned us previously. Now for pack 2, maybe someone can help me out but I don't think Nintendo picked pack 2. I could be wrong though. I do know that all of the characters have already been picked.
Corrections can be made by cutting some Fire Emblem characters in the next game.
As long as we don't get anymore fire emblem characters in the next fighter pass, all will be forgiven
@Paraka
Definitely good choices. I'd rather we had gotten Slime over Hero for DQ, but this is coming from a Monsters fan…
Yeah I Enjoy Playing Byleth
Yes I Enjoyed Playing Byleth in Smash Ultimate
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