Back when the Nintendo Switch was still the 'NX', we asked the community about their priorities in the great 60fps / visual fidelity debate. Perhaps as a result of our poll wording, or because most people want everything all at once, in general the majority of respondents wanted games both good looking and boundary pushing, with 60fps also a priority. Here's the thing though - you can't often have both.
Now, beauty is in the eye of the beholder - for example I've been replaying Super Mario 3D World recently, and at some points I think it looks gorgeous. This despite the fact it's upscaling from 720p, but the fluidity of movement at 60fps combined with some smart visual design and a colourful aesthetic is terrific. This is something Nintendo did well on Wii U, with examples including Mario Kart 8 and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, the latter of which was even native 1080p.
Of course, technology moves on apace. Due to some crafty bargain hunting following the early death of my old TV I got a solid 4K TV a while ago, before clocking the fact that my options of utilising Ultra HD were limited to streaming TV shows (or paying over the odds to rent 4K movies). Rather like going back to playing a Wii game a few years ago, going back to early-ish Wii U games shows how our eyes reflect expectations - what wowed me in 2012 / 2013 may not wow me any more.
Another example is with The Last of Us Remastered on PS4 - I thought the original on PS3 looked great, then loved the near-60fps and improved visuals on PS4, and then recently played it on my old PS4 with HDR (high dynamic range) enabled. Playing it minus HDR would now disappoint me, my eyes looking for more vibrant colour.
Shifting expectations are deadly for technology companies, and I've been following the reaction to the PS4 Pro with interest. I don't have one, and have been wrestling over whether it's worth the money. Some are happy, and clearly went in with realistic expectations on what the Pro can do, but the 60fps vs graphics debate has also been prominent. As the system's CPU boost is modest - again, to allow sane pricing - a lot of games boast of native or upscaled 4K but are limited to 30fps (or struggle with 60fps targets). In a few cases games are currently performing worse when outputting at 4K on Pro than they do on vanilla PS4s, which is naturally not part of Sony's plan and will likely be tackled in software updates. In plenty of cases, though, the gameplay experience is the same, but with sharper and more visually arresting graphics.
Some titles, often it must be said remasters or less graphically taxing games, do target both 4K and 60fps, fulfilling the dream normally reserved for those with pricey PC rigs. Other games offer a choice - upscaled 4K (or even 1080p) with a target or locked 60fps, or native full-fat 4K at a lower framerate threshold. I'd be fascinated to see data on what Pro owners with 4K displays are choosing in these cases - these options epitomise the visuals vs. performance battle.
Though there are exceptions, the reality with quite a lot of console gaming is 30fps in exchange for attractive visuals. We all get used to different things, but one of my complaints as an individual with the PS4 / Xbox One generation has been the effort to make trees look more realistic but often with disappointing performance. I've also praised Nintendo in the past for (mostly) prioritising smooth performance over eyeball-popping textures; it's clearly been a philosophical choice, depending on the game.
It does matter what genre a game is, of course. Large-scale adventure or open world games generally go for visual splendour to immerse players, which in Nintendo's case will surely apply to The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild; Pikmin 3, too, went for pretty visuals at 30fps. The Wii U BoTW demo we played in the summer was struggling to hold 30fps, but the hope is that it'll be better on Switch, plus it was also an early build. Platformers, shooters and sports games, however, should really focus on the smoothest framerate possible, as quick reactions are key; many, to be fair, still do. As we often see though, compromises made by developers rarely satisfy everyone, no matter how much PR spin is applied. Ubisoft was mocked in 2014 for claiming that 30fps was more 'cinematic', based on a bizarre comparison to the refresh rate of films. The difference is you don't control a film's lead protagonist and rely on them to jump promptly on command.
What the talk around PS4 Pro, and to an extent the so-called Microsoft 'Scorpio', demonstrate is that the technological arms race is always being lost by consoles. Every console, the moment it's released, is immediately out of date, like the declining value of a new car once it leaves the sales garage. While the Steam-driven PC game industry is here, consoles will always be a compromise, unable to match hulking rigs that enthusiasts build. Consoles are always the cheaper, more convenient choice.
For Nintendo, the Switch offers an interesting conundrum in the face of this graphical battle. Pitched as a 'home gaming system', it's really a portable, with the power driven by the tablet-like handheld console. Utilising a custom chip of NVIDIA's Tegra technology for its GPU, it could do impressive things within its limitations, depending on multiple factors and its other innards. As the 'Shield' systems show, the technology aims to drive strong performance with modest power consumption, all as efficiently as possible within a portable device. That's all nice, but the reality is that the Switch, probably like the Wii and Wii U before it, will probably not offer developers the same grunt and resources they get on other 'home' consoles.
This is where expectations come into play - the Switch could be pretty impressive as a portable device, competing on a technical level (potentially) with high-quality tablets and smartphones. Plug it into the dock to play on a 50-inch TV, though, and will the results then feel underwhelming? Perspective and expectations are everything.
The focus for Nintendo, and third-parties, will therefore be interesting. We can be confident, if Wii U taught us anything, that tentpole first-party games will deliver strong performance and visuals that push the system's capabilities - with third-parties, though, it will likely be inconsistent. Nintendo's marketing of the hardware will also be vital - if it's a 'home gaming system', it has to perceivably deliver enough quality to satisfy those gaming primarily on their TVs, at least proving passable to modern eyes used to impressive graphics and high definition. It'd help if the Switch can at least support 4K TV streaming through apps like Netflix and Amazon Prime - which isn't unrealistic, actually - just so it can say it has a small hat in that ring.
Concept and performance will likely have to be the selling points for the Nintendo Switch, with Sony and Microsoft scrapping over the 'hardcore' 4K and HDR gaming trophies. As with every gaming console, there will be compromises.
Comments 107
if they can do both thats great but i do believe they will go for performance first before visuals.
60fps is priority one always in my opinion. Build rest of the game from there.
60 fps is nice.
So is HD graphics.
Both are a nice plus, none of them is necessary to the enjoyment of a game.
Got a strange feeling of deja vu with this article :s (Edit: Completely missed that in the first sentence, d'oh!)
For some games I'd prefer a constant 30 fps and a bit more "visual splendour", if at all possible.
For fast-paced affairs such as Mario Kart and Smash Bros, I'd say 60 fps as the action is more important than the spectacle.
I think the #1 target graphically should be a consistent frame-rate, whether 30 or 60 fps. No matter how nice a game looks, the illusion drops when the game starts to lag.
It's a tough choice. Are you sure we can't have both? We can you know but it depends on the game. If I was forced to choose, you've got to have a steady framerate.
You don't need a hulking pc to play modern games. Just do a little research
I prefer resolution over frame rate. Wii games look terrible on HDTVs. 30 fps is okay with me.
A solid framerate should be the top priority. What good are shiny graphics if the screen tears and everything looks choppy even when there's not much going onscreen?
Just lock it to 30 or 60 and it's all good.
I didn't think it made a difference, but I have noticed recently that games with low fps give me a headache.
Cough- Return to Arkham- Cough.
@abbyhitter I'd agree in that case. The issue with the Wii is that it was outputting a max of 480p when HD (720p and up) was becoming standard. However, we're never going to see such a large jump in resolution again. On the other hand, many console games of this generation are having frame rate issues.
Great article. Considering that I have also recently purchased a nice new (non-OLED) LG UHD HDR big screen I was also compelled to buy the new PS4 Pro to replace my old PS4. I've always been and always will be a Nintendo fanboy, the gameplay is unique and fun to revisit. But the thing that makes Nintendo games less appealing over time is outdated graphics compared to their competition. I love the new PS4 Pro and yet I can largely get the same or better result on my PC, so for me the PS4 Pro ends up being for exclusives or games that I'd rather sit back on the couch and play like Skyrim.
The Wii U stayed largely relevant among it's fans with great games and consistent frame rates even if they were often only at 720p. To stay relevant in an age where UHD content isn't everywhere most current televisions upscale 720p or higher content fairly well. I think Nintendo should stick to what they are good at. Given the price point of the Switch it will likely be a 900p console for current gen that hits 4K with minimalistic graphics but drops as low as 720p. I think the Switch should target 1080p when possible but go no less than 720p while targeting a smooth 30 or 60fps. While games like Mario Kart Wii don't age that well visually they are still fun to go back to. Personally I think some of Nintendo's efforts like Mario Kart 8 and Splatoon outshine a lot of their competition with artistic flare and innovation where it is needed, in gameplay. I'm very optimistic about Nintendo's future, while at the same time excited for competition from Sony and Microsoft next year. Each brings something unique to the table and as gamers we have benefited.
Being accustomed to games running with a gargantuan amount of lag on my, most of the time, outdated devices I can categorically say that, as long as the game is good, I really don't care.
As long as the graphics are good enough that I can play the game easily, is say that framrate should be prioritized
6ofps has big influence in the gameplay and control. so i'd rather have a fluid 60fps than some overused effects.
A rock steady 30 fps with premium visuals/A.I. please
I just want the frame rate to either be locked at 30 or locked at 60. So long as they can keep it steady with only minimal dips I won't get a headache and that is what matters to me. Unless it is a fighting game...60fps please.
I'm not expecting much. As long HD enough as Wii U level or better, 60 fps or lower, interesting gameplay are more than enough for me.
''consoles will always be a compromise, unable to match hulking rigs that enthusiasts build''
As long as i can't play Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Uncharted, Persona 5, God of War, Splatoon, Xenoblade Chronicles etc. on a ''hulking rig'' Pc's will always be a compromise.
I'm so sick and tired of this Fps and resolution BS...
Do todays gamers even care about bloody gameplay anymore?
Platformers, shooters and sports games, however, should really focus on the smoothest framerate possible
...and fighting games, rhythm games, shoot-em-ups, pure action games/beat 'em ups and even action-adventure games, especially when they include shooting mechanics. In fact, I'd argue than anything that's not a turn-based RPG, a strategy game or a visual novel should focus on achieving the 60fps standard of yore. Even games like Pikmin 3 or Xenoblade would have benefited from an increase in framerate.
I do think that locking the framerate to offer the smoothest experience should be a priority, however.
@Lord-Spill This talk ties directly into gameplay, and specs wars have been going on since forever. It's certainly not a recent obsession.
60fps is good but forget all that and Just gimme another 3D Mario game.
Graphics and everything is good but I really only play for fun. My kids and I play the wii u more than our PlayStation 4. We've gone through so many lives and so many bubble in NSMBU n 3dworld n NSLU.
I prefer performance, the systems are powerful enough to have appealing visuals at consistent frame rates(30fps fixed and I mean minimal to no frame drops, not "oh it's 30 FPS when your character is the only thing on screen and you don't move" or better 60 FPS).
I think it's kind silly in the long run to sacrafice performance for the sake of outputting higher resolutions or ridiculous amounts of polygons to render the hairs in the nostril of the main character. One generation later and those "cutting edge graphics "will be outdated and those performance sacrafices will still be there for a game that no longer looks so great.
I've played Pikmin 3, and I DID NOT notice the 30fps framerate. I'm glad they focused more on the visuals rather than unnecessarily making the game 60fps.
@MarcelRguez
'' specs wars have been going on since forever''
Sure, but it was never as bad as today. Maybe i'm just to old for this crap...
This is only something that has started to bother me recently, but now it drives me insane and it really interferes with my enjoyment of games. I think it's a 'once noticed, cannot unnotice scenario'.
I now even struggle with 30 fps on games like Deus Ex and Xenoblade X on Wii U. Games not usually considered essential for 60 fps, but I can't spin the camera without seeing ghosting/double images in the background where movement is at its fastest. It's like a drunk effect being added in game!
I only realised recently Metroid Prime was 60fps, and it's always been my favourite game. So subconsciously I must have known 😀 60fps makes games age better too I find.
This site here proves the point for me:
http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates
I use LG TV's 'TruMotion' on games where input lag isn't too much of a concern, but even then it doesn't solve the issue, merely covers it up slightly.
So in summary, ALL games should be 60fps in my opinion. But I know it will not happen any time soon.
I don't care what a game looks like. I make my choice on a game-by-game basis and don't even think about graphical output. I'm one of those dunder-heads that doesn't even notice framerate issues.
BUT I WILL SAY THAT IF THERE IS EVEN ONE BUG IN MY GAMES THAT IMPACTS GAMEPLAY NEGATIVELY, I WILL BE LOSING IT!
I find that smoothness of 60 frames per second greatly enhances a game's visual quality, while the jerkiness of 30 frames per second usually detracts from it. I find that the most technically advanced 30 fps games on modern systems are LESS impressive visually than the most advanced games on the PS2 and Wii, in large part due to the fact that the most impressive PS2 and Wii games tend to run at 60 fps.
I think the whole FPS vs. Graphics depends on the game. more casual games could go for graphics while more fast paced action games FPS. Although really i think it depends on what the devs are going for, immersive beautiful world or game play mechanics.
I don't care about either... all I want is a game that is fun to play.
If it looks good as well, then that's just a bonus.
@GravyThief if you think 60 fps is nice, you should see 144....(another once seen cannot unsee)
@GravyThief
Are you sure it's not your Tv? I Don't have any Problems with Deus Ex, Xenoblade and other 30fps games.
@Clownshoes They said it would be 'the same experience', they got nowhere near as specific in details as you've just made out.
Even back in the PS2 days, I would notice the difference between the smoothness of Timesplitters or Armored Core 2/3 vs the roughness of, say, GTA 3 or Monster Hunter. It always felt like a step back, even when it was necessary. So yeah, frame rate it is for me. Splatoon at sub-60 would be unacceptable.
Though in the case of, say, Breath of the Wild, I'd imagine I'd have to accept 30fps. Not so much for the visual splendor, but for the ability to actually see things at a reasonable distance.
"Outside of PC"
And the PS4 Pro... and the Xbox One Scorpio... .
You may as well have just said "For Nintendo, both isn't viable".
In terms of what is important when making a game, graphics is closer to the bottom of that list than the top. Whereas consistent gameplay is important.
Games running good over graphical looks but if you can get both bonus.
@CrazedCavalier
The issue is even on more powerful hardware, many publishers prioritize having the game look great over the game running great, because they can advertise a game's "amazing graphics" where as you can't really advertise "game runs consistently at 60 FPS" because a game is already expected to perform well, even if it doesn't. Additionally, there probably are people who don't even know what frames per second are, where as everyone knows when something "looks pretty".
PC only can often overcome this because it's possible to use superior hardware to overcome a game that was developed to have better graphics at the cost of poorer performance on console hardware.
But yes, Nintendo, often with the least powerful hardware, often has to choose between one or the other and have it be noticeable more often than others.
Ya know, I'd be happy if all Switch games were around Wii U+ graphics but at a rock solid 60fps, but I doubt even that is going to happen. I mean, already Zelda is running at around 30fps, right? And I don't imagine Switch will be running it in 60fps if the Wii U isn't, although that would certainly be a great feather in Switch's cap if it pulled that off. But, generally speaking, I'm less about tech specs and more about what I actually see visually/aesthetically, and great artistry will always trump any technically impressive [for their time] graphical feats for me personally. I do, however, like my games to run smoothly basically as a matte of default, whatever they look like, because to me that goes a ways towards the actually gameplay experience too, and that is always of paramount importance to me. Saying all that though, I've never liked ugly games—and I mean just ugly, irrespective of tech—and that doesn't really change based on how good the gameplay. I want great looking games—ARTISTICALLY/AESTHETICALLY—alongside games that run and play smoothly.
Frame rate over resolution for me. I still can't see the difference between 4K and 1080p so... I'm all about 60fps.
Let's get one thing out of the way first: the PS4 Pro does NOT do native 4K. It upscales and it uses a faux-4K technique called checker-boarding, which fools the viewer into thinking he is looking at a true 4K image, but it definitely isn't. Only the Scorpio, and obviously PC's, will be able to do native 4K.
And I'm so tired of this whole debate in general. 60fps for all games isn't necessary AT ALL, and in some cases even completely useless.
But a crowd being brainwashed by the media and their friends can't help but feel that 30fps is "clearly" an absolute no for even the simplest of games. Games that only a few years ago they enjoyed and were even dying to get their hands on. And now all of a sudden you wouldn't be able to enjoy these anymore because they can't compare? What a load of crap.
Stop and take a breather and consider for a moment why so many movies haven't adapted to this "absolute truth" of the Holy Grail of frame rates yet. In a recent interview I read, a number of film makers explained quite simply why they choose to film in a frame rate range of between 24 - 30fps, and that is to make movies more cinematic.
I agree with the few smart people that have said that the most important thing is to lock a frame rate, either at 30 or 60fps, and to implement the right kind of frame rate in the right type of game. There are quite a few games that benefit from 60fps, but certainly not all of them, because slow games simply don't benefit from a higher frame rate, and especially if you want to make your game have a more cinematic experience, you don't want to use 60fps. Consistency is the key, not the highest number...
4K is also not necessary for most games. HDR on the other hand really does add to the experience. But to say that old(er) games look bad on a UHD TV is in all likelihood more a personal opinion than an actual fact.
My opinion is that you already know what you're going to get if you fire up an old console, so your expectations should be set accordingly, and not along the lines of "oh man, this looks really bad and dated. I thought it was going to look a whole lot better."
That simply isn't realistic and it has a negative effect on your possibility of enjoying the game, which in the end makes you the only one that loses.
I have had an entirely different experience: once I had my first Full HD TV, I bought a VGA box for my Dreamcast, component cables for my Wii and GameCube and I actually gained new appreciation for a whole lot of titles, because I was finally able to see them in all their glory, a view that before that time was only beholden to the developers themselves.
CRT TV's and the old widescreen TV's were just never able to replicate the clarity and fidelity of PC monitors, and especially in the case of the VGA Box, the enormous gain in the removal of artifacts is astounding: no bleeding, no running colors, no blurred image, no transparent lines running through the screen, etc. etc.
For those of you that have a TV with a VGA connector, I'd definitely recommend saving up for a VGA Box, the one I have is specifically for the Dreamcast, but there are also more versatile ones, obviously a bit more expensive, but any console that doesn't have a HDMI connection will definitely and greatly benefit from it.
As for the Switch: give me 1080p native and a locked frame rate (something that both the Xbox One and PS4 are still struggling with in a heck of a lot of titles), whether 30 or 60fps, and I'll be a happy camper...
@Lord-Spill I'm pretty certain. I started to notice it on my previous Plasma TV and still do on my new LCD TV, and I now notice it on my CRT playing Mario Sunshine on my GC, but not Metroid Prime. Strangely when I played Mario Sunshine back in the day I never noticed it at all.
I'm sure something's happened with my perception of movement as I've become older, which I'm very annoyed about. I'm even now noticing it when I revisit Wii U games I only played 2 years ago and never had issues like Wind Waker HD!
It's more the background when panning the camera fast that gets me. I'm less bothered about the smoothness of the actual gameplay which really is what should matter. Very odd, but very frustrating too. I don't know what's happened, I just wish I could unsee it and get back to enjoying the games rather than noticing these double images in the background.
At least I'm ok with 2D retro games and thus am enjoying my NES Mini very much indeed 😀
A higher frame rate immerses me more in the experience, because it feels like live action. What frame rate is real life? 60fps my friends
@Yoshis95 haha well given my issue I think I'll try and avoid viewing games running at super high fps, otherwise I think I'll be screwed!
It did get to the point where I started looking at gaming PCs to guarantee 60 fps gaming, but it's really not my thing and it wouldn't help for Nintendo games.
So I've decided to just get on with playing and enjoying the games, and try not to look at the background when panning the camera!
@Lord-Spill "Do todays gamers even care about bloody gameplay anymore?"
Doesn't seem like it. You can have all the graphical fidelity in the world but all these big budget AAA games fall flat because of that "dead behind the eyes" look and weird character and facial movement in their protagonists. They're like rubbery mannequins. Call me old school but it's smooth gameplay over everything for me.
@audiobrainiac Life does not have a frame rate and neither do we see in frame rates.
We can obviously perceive frame rates made by artificial means, such as in movies and games, and it has been measured that the human eye can be taught to distinguish a flashing image at 255fps, which is a number measured in trained air force pilots.
Sources:
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/12/624076851013991842/
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111107141146AATZ2uP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate#Frame_rate_and_human_vision
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/see_a_photon.html
Personally, I can live with 720p games but framrate means a lot more to me. I can deal with 30fps on handheld and mobile, on console it really ruins it for me. It's way more noticible to me. I can live with it I guess, but somehow I have a feeling big games wont achieve high fps or high resolution on Switch, and that's very disappointing to me, who, as a customer, will likely never take the $300+ system outside my front door.
I am the only one not really impressed with 4k?
It's diminishing returns. It's so crisp, yes it is but not that crisp, not a game changer and nothing to get excited over. It's like the jump from ps3 to ps4 is nowhere near as impressive as the jump from ps2 to ps3.
The jump from ps4 to pro is more like a hop.
@ThanosReXXX
''And I'm so tired of this whole debate in general. 60fps for all games isn't necessary AT ALL, and in some cases even completely useless.''
Yup, like the PC version of the Resident Evil Re-Remake.
@SetupDisk Totally agreed. It is nice, especially in the fidelity department, but never again will we experience a difference like going from N64 to GameCube or indeed from the PS2 to the PS3, the steps are ever smaller, focusing more and more on minute details, which is probably why frame rate is becoming so important, because of the diminishing returns in graphics, we must now focus on making games ever smoother...
It's a sad state of affairs, really, that technical factors are becoming (or apparently already have become) the most important factor for the enjoyment of games.
@shiryu and I will always both agree that 60fps is the priority.
PS4Pro and XBScorpio won't be powerful enough to natively render at 4K beyond maybe 20FPS at the equivalent of medium settings. It takes a bare minimum of a $1000 (custom built) PC rig today to reliably render natively at 4K with High settings on demanding games and Max settings on lower spec games with at least 30FPS at all times and no drops. There's no way a $400-$500 console can possibly offer that, they're likely to just use VSR (Virtual Super Resolution) or some other technical tricks to artificially boost the output above 1080p, and be marketed as 4K. In other words, they will be able to virtually bring the resolution up to 4K, but not natively.
Honestly, it's a bit too soon for 4K at this point. A regular LED 4K display is a total waste of money, because without an OLED display, you don't get the optimal color saturation & contrast ratio, true blacks, and evenly distributed & energy efficient lighting to combine with that fancy 4K resolution. OLED 4K is still super expensive, so it's actually a better value right now to get an OLED 1080p display than an LED 4K display. You'll hardly ever notice any perceivable improvements in the LED 4K display by comparison, because OLED displays offer such a huge jump in overall visual quality from LED displays. Not to mention, many TV channels and games aren't capable of fully supporting 4K native rendering anyways.
The focus now should be on 1080p/60FPS at high settings, and 1080p/30FPS at max settings. There's no excuse to not hit that marker anymore. Any less than that is trash tier, moving forward. It actually takes at least a good $800 PC rig to ensure 1080p/60FPS at max settings for more demanding games. So it's best to just leave 4K to the rich people with great PC rigs for now, and wait for the prices to come down.
frame rate > image fidelity in my own personal criteria. then you have games like mario kart 8, smash 4, fast racing neo, bayonetta, and other wii u games having 60fps and high image quality. frame rate doesn't get enough credit for making the call of duty series so popular.
@ThanosReXXX : I'll check out the VGA Box. Any recommendations for the N64? I actually play that system the most, and newer tv's don't seem to output quite right.
4k hear we go again .Eeventhou they are quite cheap now there is VAST amount of world's population that don't have one.Even TV providers like Sky and Virgin only offer a small amount of 4k programs although at a hight price, Freest, Freeview ect have none.Most tv ones don't even broadcast in 1080p.It's going to be Quite sone time for mass market has 4k ,let alone HDR ,and even longer for normal channels to have this.720p 60fps on 40 inch tv is absolutely fine.If you've got 50 inch or above 1080p 60fps is needed if fussy.4k home consoles is not important or needed wright now and unless your hardcore tv buff or what very best of best looking picture on your games most people don't care.
4K is basically a scam, especially on consoles. The less said about it the better.
As for resolution vs. framerate, it really is a game to game type thing. Some just work better with one or the other. Super Mario Sunshine, for one, should've gone for FPS. It wouldn't have very solved its litany of other assorted problems but it definitely would have helped its lethargic pace.
MGS3 on the other hand, wasn't much helped by 60fps. The cinematic quality suffered for it, highlighting awkward character animations and more so the ridiculously outdated lip movements, which were unimpressive even back in 2005.
(...If nothing else at least the 3DS remake fixed that particular problem, if only by lowering the framerate to the near-20s, and not even consistently at that.)
Ideally it should be choice based, like GTA Vice City on the PC way back in the day.
Stable frame rate first, glitter on the rocks second!
720p with 60fps and I'm happy tbh
@Cyberbotv2 There are several types of VGA Boxes, for all non-HD consoles. There's also a couple for SNES, N64 and GameCube:
https://www.google.nl/search?q=vga+box+for+gamecube+snes+and+n64&newwindow=1&biw=1268&bih=825&source=lnms&sa=X&sqi=2&pjf=1&ved=0ahUKEwi9gJ6G0a7QAhWDChoKHQj3AGoQ_AUIDCgA&dpr=1
But according to some, the best option is an RGB mod, but that can become rather expensive, so it kind of depends on how much money you're willing to spend on it.
Here is a video about it. Be sure to read the comments section as well, since it contains a lot of information on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtqrtnA9bQU
And then there's also cable solutions like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GljAFO44Z1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnjhBkwEUek
But I never tried them, so couldn't tell you anything useful about them.
Currently, I just play my N64 games on my modded Wii (made into the ultimate retro console, with every emulator you can think of), and that is connected with component cables, so the quality of all graphics is already improved by that.
And finally, there's also this mod:
http://retrorgb.com/ultrahdmi.html
Also not a really cheap one, but again: depending on what you're willing to spend perhaps worth your while...
Good luck, and I hope you find the right solution for your setup.
@Cyberbotv2 A "flat face" CRT with component cables connected to a modded Wii/Wii U, or component/S-video/composite (in order of most to least preference, left to right) cables depending on the console in question, is usually about the best you can do. RGB is rarely worth it, unless it's being set up for a console that can really take advantage of it, like a Dreamcast.
The resolution of the games really depends on the screen size... The TVs I play are not bigger than 40" so the 4K and the 1080p doesn't differs that greatly.If you take de portable side of the Switch it would not matter at all if it was 10K or 720p, the screen size pixels would be so tiny on both resolutions that anyone of them would fulfill the need of the "graphic-addicteds". Saddly people just got blinded by specs. In my case, I'm still have to see that many, of nintendo games per console, games from others consoles, that makes me want it because they look fun and not a movie.
I'm going to go ahead and say that it depends on the game. For plattformers, fast-paced action and racing games etc. it makes sense to go 60FPS because of the added response time it gives you, but in slower, more methodical games, I don't mind having a more detailed exterior if it means halving the framerate. As long as gameplay isn't compromised, it really should be done on a case by case basis.
Have a 4K TV in the house as well as some 1080 p's but I like the look of my 720p TV for HD consoles and always use CRT for SD consoles.
If a game has nice art and plays well who cares? I don't lol
@ThanosReXXX Thank you for bringing up the US military/Air Force pilot research. Too many people completely ignore evidence on perceptibility of frame rates based on personal experience.
@BiasedSonyFan Component cables, Dolby Digital Surround or good headphones, and a big flat face CRT... Oh yeah. That's the stuff. (Of course, Rogue Squadron was one of the best looking/performing games at the time, along with Soul Calibur.)
@CrazedCavalier for PS4 pro and Scorpio, both isn't viable either.
With better graphics come power fps.
PC just has the advantage that, no matter how great a game looks, you can always build a PC that can run it in 60 fps. Even if you habe to wait because of prices. Game developers for consoles always have to compromise one over the other.
Thats all this is about.
I'm looking for the Switch to be my next handheld - continuing my favourite 3DS series - Fire Emblem, Animal Crossing etc.
Add in GameCube VC and I would be very happy.
Nintendo needs the Supplemental Computing Device for Switch in Fall 2017 using a custom Pascal equivalent of GTX 1060 (which will be over a year old by then, and probably pretty cheap). It wouldn't be as powerful as Xbox Scorpio, but close enough to PS4 Pro. Bring in Metroid Prime 4 to launch with SCD support and a trailer of MK9 to really show what Switch can do for hardcore gamers and stunning graphics, if they want it. The mainstream & casuals will just go for the Switch alone since they don't care much about graphics.
@yomanation You are really mad at Nintendo for doing something you just made up. You have no evidence at all that the Switch will be 720p-only.
Everyone should know by now, especially given popularity of some indie games (Shovel Knight), that graphics don't make the game worth playing. Gameplay and performance do.
@Lord-Spill You took the words from my mouth! And as far as specs wars go, people are fighting over crumbs nowdays. All systems look good and can perform well. So it comes down to who has the most fun games! I know I've got a boatload of them on Wii u!!!
Going from 30FPS to 60FPS does more for the gameplay enjoyment than having prettier visuals. For a console like the Switch, it shouldn't be attempting to dazzle us with technical graphics prowess, it doesn't have the hardware to pull it off.
@beautifulstrong No profanity, thanks.
I prefer beautiful visuals over higher frame rate. I was an N64 fanatic, so that probably cemented my preference. I love graphics that are big, bold, vibrant, deep and detailed. I want a game to make me say 'waw- that is stunning'. A good enough frame rate is expected, but I'm far from fanatical about 60fps.
Nintendo are masters of getting the most out of there own hardware.
Just look at games like, Captain Toad, Mario Kart 8, Windwaker HD they are all gorgeous games to name a few.
I have no doubts that 1st party games will look amazing from the get go!
I'll still never get why people seem to think 60fps in video games is the most important goal humans could possibly aspire to. Don't worry, though, I'll also still complain about it every time an article like this comes up. You're welcome.
"I've been replaying Super Mario 3D World recently, and at some points I think it looks gorgeous"
At some points? Game's absolutely stunning from beginning to end.
Great graphics don't necessarily mean 'realistic', and this is one of my pet peeves with gaming right now. In fact, I'd take stylized graphics with amazing art direction over just another high-fidelity brown and grey visual anytime.
i prefer 900P with 60fps instead 1080 with 30fps. When you play 60fps and going back to 30fps you will notice for sure
@yomanation According to Laura Kate Dale, the system will perform better when docked, so 1080p on the TV is still a possibility. And she's been right about everything so far.
https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/status/789131903622406144
@PlywoodStick You're welcome, and agreed on those two games. They actually still look amazing to this day. Rogue Squadron looks brilliant through VGA on a big screen, and Soul Calibur 2 as well. Heck, even the first Soul Calibur still looks amazing through a VGA Box. (got that game on the Dreamcast) Very fluid animation, and the graphics still hold up, even after all these years.
@ThanosReXXX : Thanks! I'll be reading through this the next few days. And you are so right about the Wii acting as a super retro console. The N64 emulators are hit and miss with some games, but my Wii sits right next to my N64. I use these two much more than my Wii U and Xbox one right now.
@Cyberbotv2 What version of Wii64 do you use? I use the USB mod, and for the tougher games, you should use Not64, a purer port of Mupen64, that is actually also the base of Wii64, but somehow, they made that less compatible. Not64 even plays Conker's Bad Fur Day, which Wii64 doesn't.
@AlexSora89 Absolutely correct. I can't tell you how many old NES classics there are that still beat out games today. Sure the visuals look nice, but just because you made crap in HD doesn't make it a better game.
@Cyberbotv2 The rest of my emulators all come from Wiibrew and files and games from sites like The ISO Zone and Emuparadise, where they have the so called Good Sets of most consoles, containing cleaned up lists of games known to be working correctly.
@ThanosReXXX That's awesome. I was just making a joke to drive my point home. Thanks for the explanation. One learns something new everyday.
@audiobrainiac Ah, okay. My bad on missing that. #text_interpretation_and_all_that
@yomanation The real question will be if the Sandwitch mobile device uses an OLED display, like the original Vita did. If they do, forgiveness is in order. However, considering they still sometimes use lower quality TF (edit:TN) screens on New 3DS models, I'm not entirely confident about that...
@audiobrainiac But seriously, though: I do hope that your point wasn't that by definition, a higher frame rate is always better, because it just isn't, as I already explained in comment #43.
@Embassy It's been reported that the mobile device itself will "merely" have 720p output, and be boosted up to 1080p when docked.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-27-nintendo-switch-screen-is-720p-will-support-multi-finger-gestures-report
Granted, that's better than the Vita, which only had a resolution of 960x544, known as qHD (quarter HD, or more accurately, quarter full HD). That's also better than even the latest iPhone. In other words, the Sandwitch mobile device will be one of the first to have true HD.
@PlywoodStick I think you mean TN screen: the New 3DS comes with either that for a top screen or IPS.
And obviously, considering the size and content, the screen for the Switch will be higher quality, and since it will probably be multi-touch, I'm indeed expecting an OLED screen.
@ThanosReXXX I'm sorry, TN (twisted nematic + film) is what I meant. Got that confused with TFT (thin film transistor), which TN is a type of, but not the only one. (Parentheses for reminding myself)
Vita games look great on an OLED screen, even with it's limitations, so the Sandwitch mobile will look even better... The results would be gorgeous on an OLED!
If the game performs like crap, it doesn't matter how pretty it looks. I think they need to market it as a handheld that can be played at home (like how Sony once tried to market the PS4, when paired with the Vita, as a home console that can be played on the go.
I think the Switch will be fantastic. I'm expecting graphics a bit better than the Wii U, but I'm certainly not expecting PS4 levels. I think Nintendo has finally found their mojo again with this.
Ninty games like it or not don't aim for realism in their games, so their quirky artstyle look great either way
@ThanosReXXX My point was that I personally prefer 60fps. That's all.
Don't care, just give me pikmin 4 and zelda
While I can tell 60fps from 30, I'm not going to let it gate my enjoyment of something. Personally, if it's holding at one or the other strong I won't care. What irritates is when it's almost 60, but bobbles in and out because of limitations.
Basically, as long as it runs, I prefer a good design sense even if it's only nice at the time.
@yomanation It would indeed. For now, it's only a rumor, but it is a rumor from EuroGamer's main source of information, and as we all know now, she has been right so far, so chances are there is at least some truth to it.
And then there's also the story of the SCD's adding power to the dock. If that is also true, then there is very little to worry about. Guess we'll just have to be patient a little longer. It'll be January before you know it...
@yomanation Well, that is exactly what the rumor says: underclocked on the go, to preserve battery life and prevent overheating because it isn't actively cooled when not in the dock.
Tegra chips are known for their capability to be over- or underclocked, so it's really not all that strange to expect this to be true. Once the Switch is docked, the fans will be activated, it will no longer have to rely on batteries, so the dock could "trigger" it to go full force once it detects it being inserted.
And the Tegra K1 (the X1's predecessor) was already able to do Full HD on a tablet, so natively, it would easily be able to do 1080p and probably also 60fps. Far as I know, the Nvidia Shield was already an improvement on that, and the tech in the Switch is newer than that. (which coincides nicely with the Shield 2 being cancelled)
And the nature of the Tegra architecture allows for them to underclock it on purpose to let the Switch run at 720p. At least, that is what I've understood from all I've read about the technology.
As for the SCD: that doesn't complicate things at all. It could come in the shape of something that you either place underneath the dock (like the GameCube's Game Boy Player) or just connect like an external HDD. It would be the perfect solution to future proof the Switch and to offer an alternative for buying a whole new console like with the other two.
Prices for such a device wouldn't have to be higher than $100 - $150, and they could offer it as a separate upgrade somewhere around early 2018.
And the ever evolving Tegra architecture is something that is also frequently talked about of late. It will allow for upgrades without having to change the form factor. There's even talk of having only the dock upgraded, so even though the current dock may only be a charging dock and a trigger to let it go full speed, the next dock might contain extra hardware and act as an SCD.
And all it would have to be is a modern equivalent of an Expansion Pak, albeit with an extra chipset that can work in unison with the tablet, but Nvidia is well versed in SLI technologies, so I see no obstacles there.
We really have to take that possibility into account, because of the lengths they've gone to in getting that patent cleared for completion. They've done that with none of the other patents, which is also obvious from almost none of these ideas appearing in the Switch, unless there's more to it that they are going to show us in January.
And just to be clear, none of what I wrote here is my idea, I'm only telling you what I've read or heard, and most of it is based upon the same sources that have successfully predicted what the Switch would be.
@yomanation As for what it could run, check these videos, in case you haven't seen them before:
Tegra K1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkJ5PupShfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRr-G95GdaM
Tegra X1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEHXFnCRlAo
Tegra X1 vs PS4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPtLOEh6h80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XzIZWO1qdg
As for the SCD: Obviously, that is a dead giveaway. Of COURSE we're not going to see an SCD in the initial packages. That's why I said that it could be presented as an additional option later on in the consoles' life. Much like an upgrade for your PC, something that Nvidia is very much accustomed to, so they could help Nintendo with achieving that.
And there is literally nothing convoluted about it. Either you stick some kind of SLI-enabled base to the underside of the dock (which is why I mentioned the Game Boy Player, to give the idea a visual representation), or you plug it in on the side, can't make it much easier than that.
And the TEGRA technology is specifically geared towards being an ever evolving and yet highly compatible platform, so there will be no problems between various iterations, which would be a very good alternative and a far more elegant solution compared to what the other two are doing. So, what it ultimately comes down to is that the console will be able to grow and expand right alongside with the TEGRA hardware in a very organic manner.
But maybe the rumored upgraded dock is a better option, although the most important question would then be: if we get a dock with additional power somewhere along the line, what do we do with our original dock? Do we just throw that away, or would we be able to trade it in for dock 2.0?
To me, some additional hardware to add to the original setup would seem to be the far better option.
And if you want to know more about how that would work, then I'd suggest that you look up more on Nvidia's SLI solution. They pretty much invented and perfected it, so it is a VERY viable and maybe even highly likely option.
@yomanation The exact same could be said about Microsoft's and Sony's incremental console upgrades: will developers support it? And the answer is yes, as already proven by developers working on multiple PS4 Pro titles.
The thing that everybody doesn't see, or refuses to see with Nintendo, is that apparently, they aren't smart enough or, God forbid, hardcore enough to also want to do an upgrade of their console.
The difference in their situation lies in the hardware they use. Nvidia is almost going out of their way explaining how versatile and adoptive their hardware is and how user-friendly it is to program. And it is also factually proven that the entire TEGRA line is both backward and forward compatible, and they do this at every event that they appear on, so there must be some truth to it.
Maybe my example of the Game Boy Player wasn't the right one, but it was more to show how additional hardware could easily connect to the dock, not so much to show that it was going to be just as niche as that contraption was. I know they haven't sold that many of them. I have one, because I loved GBA games and I also loved expanding my GameCube, but I'm well aware that it wasn't a humongous success in general.
And you are well versed in tech, but so am I, and I can probably see you and raise you in years of experience, and besides that, I'm also a sales & marketing specialist who knows how to market these kinds of things and who can estimate how the public reacts to stuff like this, so that distinction is probably not going to get us anywhere or help this conversation. I'm not looking for a p***ing contest or anything similar.
But on with the topic at hand: because of my faulty comparison, you might see the SCD as a similar kind of peripheral, but obviously it's not. It is designed to get more out of games, and if it truly does follow the concept described in the patent, also to expand your account activity and give you rewards, so it will certainly be a more enticing option compared to something like a Game Boy Player, which only catered to a small group, whereas the SCD will cater to ALL Switch owners.
If the other two parties can persuade their users to shell out the cash for a newer, more powerful model of the console they already have, then it will certainly be possible for Nintendo to persuade future Switch owners to buy an upgrade that does NOT require them to buy a completely console but will still offer them additional power.
Like I said before: it would be a more convenient and probably far more elegant solution compared to what the others are doing.
Consider this: Playstation and Xbox owners need to think about if they really want or need one of the better models of their console, since ALL games need to work on ALL versions of the consoles. There isn't going to be any unique content, unless they also go for the whole VR experience, but gamers that can do that, are of a smaller group, because they probably have an above average budget.
So, they either keep their current console, or go with one of those newer models, for their own specific reasons, but a lot of them will just keep their base model version of their console of choice and will only upgrade once that needs to be replaced.
With the Switch + SCD their will be no such pondering: they either buy the expansion kit or they don't, but even if they do, it will not cost them the price of a console. I've seen and spoken to a lot of people in forums and on YouTube channels and most of them agree on the price I named earlier, so a simple setup with extra RAM, a CPU and a GPU with a plastic casing around it and some connectors wouldn't have to cost more than $150, which is a hell of a whole lot better than having to shell out another $400 - $600 (or maybe even more for a Scorpio) and have the older model of that same console be instantly obsolete.
Nobody's going to want those, so selling it will probably not end up in people getting back a large part of what they paid for it in the first place, meaning they will probably just put it in a closet somewhere, where it'll be gathering dust.
Read up on the SLI possibilities if you really want to continue this conversation. SLI works brilliantly in PC's, and with Nvidia's knowledge on the topic I'm pretty sure they could make it work for Nintendo as well.
A hot swappable SLI configuration (which is what it would end up being if it is going to be an upgraded dock) is not only possible, it is also very easy and convenient, and more cost-effective, not to mention less user-base alienating...
None of what I've said so far is set in stone (obviously) but what I am doing is looking at what is feasible or possible, with a thinking in solutions frame of mind, and not from a perspective of how difficult or improbable it would be.
If the other two parties can convince their supporters to buy a completely new console to get better looking games, then upgrading a system you already have to get better graphics certainly does seem to be the better of "two evils"...
@yomanation "PS4 Pro runs all the PS4 titles regardless of devs supporting it or not"
Well, that's exactly what I was trying to say. The newer Switch (or the upgraded dock) will be fully compatible with the older hardware thanks to Nvidia's uber-compatible TEGRA architecture, so like with the other two parties, all games will be compatible too, so the problem that we had previously discussed isn't there to begin with.
In fact, Nintendo/Nvidia have the advantage because in the case of the Switch, it could simply be a matter of either adding the SCD as an external peripheral, or exchanging the old dock for the newer one, that contains extra hardware. Cheaper, simpler and nobody has to buy a completely new console.
And why would you buy another console if the one you have still works? Most people would only buy a replacement once the current console stops working or doesn't work well enough anymore, but you don't shell out another $300 just for the sake of getting a newer model.
And I wasn't talking about a Switch 2, I'm talking exclusively about the upgrading possibilities of the current Switch.
Either way, all of this is mere theory, based upon the whole "dock allows tablet to overclock" rumor from Laura Kate Dale.
What additional options to upgrade the Switch will become available is still up in the air. Personally, I don't think that this is information that we will get in January because that'll probably just be about more details on what the Switch can do and games, games, games.
So, we'll probably have to wait a bit longer to find out what's going to happen after that. Although the overclock rumor is something that I could see being confirmed in January, seeing as that is potentially already a part of the current configuration.
Anyways, I'm out. Going to enjoy my weekend. I'm spending too much time behind the keyboard as it is, so time to sign off. Thanks for the interesting discussion and have a good weekend.
@gcunit Sorry
@MrGuinea
@AlexSora89
Best post ever
@ollyander
Which one, my first one? Thanks, but it's a sentiment I've often expressed around here. And it's not just a way to defend Nintendo - it's more a matter of getting one's priorities straight.
I could play, or should I say try, a hyper-realistic Mario game that needs momentum for jumping, features enemies that bleed, boasts the Havok engine, is played in first-person, punches the player in the face with the obligatory angsty twist halfway through the game, needs the player to find mushrooms to keep Mario's insides inside him, and so on... or I could play a 30fps, real Mario game in standard definition and just have fun.
I've seen other takes on the platforming genre, and as good as Mirror's Edge admittedly is, I'd never play it if I had to choose between it and a good old Mario game.
Am I a fanboy? Unquestionably so. Do I defend everything Nintendo does? Not in a million years. Point is, graphical upgrades and whatnot are always welcome, as long as we don't start perceiving them as needed. People created works of art even without the tech we have today. Final Fantasy VI featured an actual opera. Donkey Kong Country dared us to find a difference between it and a polygonal PS1 game. The list goes on. I welcome change, but I'm not obsessed in the slightest with it. I want a new Nintendo system because it's gonna have a new Mario, not because I could count his facial hair. I don't give any fecal matter about the realism or lack thereof, I just want a good game. Anyone wants to discuss a new console that does this and that? Fine. Can I have a fight between Mario and Sonic on it? No? Then leave me alone and enjoy your photorealistic visuals (I'm not talking to you, I'm being hypothetical) while I enjoy a game. Show me a game I like on your system and we'll talk. I have an Xbox One because I like, say, Unravel, not because the yarn looks life-like on it.
It's saddening. It truly is. So many people are willing to place lots of money on a console because of its power at the expense of what makes a good game. On PlayStation 4 you can buy the original Crash Bandicoot and Spyro games on PlayStation Store (I guess; I don't know if something as simple as that has been screwed up in the switch between PS3 and PS4), while Xbox One owners have the privilege of being able to play classic Rare games on it. But what about new platformers? Of course, the point isn't about platformers alone, but this genre is very emblematic when it comes to the state of the gaming industry today.
Pictured: Rare's way of letting us know how Nuts & Bolts came to be - namely, today's industry cares little about platformers, hence a driving game disguised as an entry in a platforming franchise because Microsoft didn't believe in an actual BK game selling.
Good graphics are welcome, more than welcome if they don't come at the expense of - if you excuse me for being sentimental here - the heart and soul of a game. There are exceptions: Ori and the Blind Forest, Unravel, Inside, the list goes on and on. But many next-gen titles often feels like complicated tech demos that casually happen to be playable. Heavy Rain and its brethren are especially guilty of this.
I would think the same if I was a PlayStation gamer: not caring for other consoles because I could play as Kratos on mine. This subject trascends consoles and brands. If I was more of an Xbox guy, I would ask you to tell me if there's a Halo on your Nintendo slash Sony console before even bothering to tell me about it.
Graphics are important. They are. But they're not everything. And if Pete Hines once told us that "Nintendo missed the boat" when it came to third-party support on Wii U... no need to dance around the issue, it was a matter of graphics. Graphics, graphics, always graphics. Hearing that much about them has become tiresome. He said Nintendo didn't allow them - Bethesda - to do what they had in mind because the console's power was inferior. Who in their right mind could give top priority to graphical power and still refer to themselves as game developers? If power is that crucial to developing a game before you even think of a fun game to create, a developer should rather move to a different career. Animation, perhaps. Working at Pixar. Or in the visual effects department for any company. That makes sense.
This is the "Nintendo difference": the ability to say "here's our console, it's as powerful as two GameCubes, now watch as we create a good game for it" and go on creating Super Mario Galaxy. Creating a fun game. Which, sad to say, has become a bit of a lost art.
Sorry for the lengthy response, @ollyander, but the way I felt just kept flowing as I was typing. Thanks for seeing my previous comment as a well-thought one while it could have been mistaken as fanboyish, hoping my admittedly fanboyish rebuttal comes off as a well-thought comment.
@yomanation It's obviously going to be 1080p when plugged into the TV. If you don't believe this you are delusional.
@yomanation The trailer is in 1080p, the Switch can run 1080p games, and this is a Wii U game that doesn't even use the full power of the Switch. It's common sense.
@yomanation This one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDFZIUdo764
@yomanation It'll be 720p on the handheld and 1080p when docked. I'm expecting 4K output for Netflix too.
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