At a first glance, you could be forgiven for assuming that Super Smash Bros. for Wii U is simply a HD refresh of Super Smash Bros. Brawl, especially given that the core gameplay concept hasn't evolved a great deal. Nevertheless, underneath its incredibly polished aesthetics and smooth 60 frames per second speed, there’s a wealth of improvements that make this latest instalment a much more refined experience.
As if the Super Smash Bros. Invitational tournament at E3 wasn't already evidence enough, subtle gameplay changes which increase the overall speed of gameplay and gravity’s effect on characters suggest that this title is being geared towards the competitive crowd. The removal of tripping, for example, is an instant blessing for anyone who has ever lost a match due to its random and cruel design. It’s nowhere near as complex as Super Smash Bros. Melee was and thankfully so, as there are plenty of regular players out there who will want to enjoy this too.
The Super Smash Bros. series was never designed with the sole purpose of trying to provide an ultra-balanced, highly competitive game, and while pro players may find this more appealing that the last title, the overall focus is still on providing frenetic and action-packed fun for all. Enhanced greatly by the luxury of high definition, simply looking at a stage is hazardous by itself as beautiful, dynamic backdrops are tempting enough to divert your eyes from the on-screen combat. Of particular note from our recent playthrough was the stage inspired by Pilotwings, which perfectly captures and merges the glorious scale of Pilotwings Resort’s Wuhu Island and the classic Mode 7 effect of the SNES original. Of course, the resolution boost helps to distinguish on-screen characters, items and hazards from one another, making it much easier to keep up with the action compared to the upcoming 3DS version, for which we also recently shared first impressions.
The new additions to the character roster also add something fresh to the mix. Previous Super Smash Bros. games have featured numerous clones of existing characters, and while we imagine this may still happen to some degree in the Wii U version, a lot of work has nevertheless gone into creating bespoke move sets for newcomers. Animal Crossing’s Villager, for example, calls upon a wide range of everyday items to rain destruction on his/her enemies, and has an unusual feat in that one of his/her mid-air attacks is actually a projectile. Little Mac, on the other hand, has a weighty feel and delivers hits with stunning force – provided he’s planted on the ground that is. All players will no doubt appreciate the diversity of character types on offer, but it’s the veterans who will get a real kick out of mastering a character with an entirely new feel to them.
Again, Super Smash Bros. for Wii U can’t help but look like its predecessors on the surface; players shouldn't expect revolutionary new gameplay mechanics, not to mention that the franchise was never in need of them. Instead, Sakurai-san and Co. have – based on what we’ve played – done a fabulous job of tweaking the nuts of bolts underneath it all, giving it a stunning coat of paint and ramping up the fun factor once again. Wii U owners are in for a real treat when Super Smash Bros. for Wii U lands a knockout punch this holiday season.
Some extra first impressions — Ron DelVillano
It's not entirely fair or easy to judge a game based on a few short minutes — my experience was at an occasionally chaotic Smash-Fest event. The idea of issuing one's first impressions on a game without extended exposure is, in a way, absolutely absurd. With that in mind, the good news is that a first impression is exactly what its name claims it to be: an initial response to something you know virtually nothing about. Remember when you first met your best friend and immediately knew they were someone with whom you could easily get along and have a lot of fun? Super Smash Bros. could easily be every Wii U owner’s new best friend.
One thing that is immediately apparent upon playing is that significant adjustments have been made to balance the characters. Even in this early build, the pace at which each individual fighter attacks, dodges, and recovers all feel distinctive, as if the in-game physics have been completely rebuilt from the ground up. Rather than feeling like an enhanced or altered version of the characters present in Melee or Brawl, this new game plays like a fresh experience. Combat is familiar, but all of your actions have more gravity to them, providing a more concise version of the frantic battles that we’re used to. Returning characters still felt familiar, but there is a new smoothness to gameplay that makes the experience all the more fluid.
If there was any issue with the game that I noticed, it was trying to get used to playing with the Pro Controller. Attacks are still linked to the A and B buttons, with jumps assigned to X and Y, but the layout had me attacking when I meant to jump, and hopping out of the way when I was aiming to finish off my opponents with a devastating blow. All four players were set up to use this controller, leaving the GamePad resting in its charging cradle. From where I stood, I could see that the GamePad was supporting off-television play, reflecting all of the action on the small screen. Here's to hoping that the controls can easily be adjusted to better reflect the setup of the GameCube controller in the full game, assuming we don't all just spring for the official adapter instead.
In terms of new fighters to the series, I only had the chance to play as Wii Fit Trainer and Little Mac. Wii Fit Trainer was much slower and heavier than expected, making her surprisingly difficult to use for a first match, but her attack strength more than made up for the low speed. Conversely, Little Mac's rapid ground attacks and movement speed felt smooth and natural, especially when juxtaposed against his sub-par aerial routine. Despite Little Mac's in-air vulnerability, his powerful fists ensure that he's still a contender who shouldn’t be dismissed. The two new characters that I got to play as didn’t feel like they fit into the Smash Bros. universe as naturally as series veterans do, but they still manage to exude the expected amount of charm, bringing their unique styles to the fray.
Be sure to check out our other hands on features from E3:
- Breaking Out With Siesta Fiesta on 3DS
- Going Portable With Super Smash Bros. for 3DS
- Hyrule Warriors Is Zelda, But Not As We Know It
- Getting Our Hands Dirty in Harvest Moon: The Lost Valley
- Bewitching Bayonetta 2 Brings Action Gaming To A Climax On Wii U
- Taking Sonic Boom for a Spin on Wii U and 3DS
- Moulding Clay With Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
- Getting Creative With Mario Maker
- Solving the puzzle of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
- Enjoying the craft of Yoshi's Woolly World
- Taking aim with Nintendo's new online shooter IP, Splatoon
Comments 95
I wouldn't listen to these guys, as they are casuals.
I don't know if i will buy this game anymore... the Wii U version seems so better and playable in HD and a big screen... And unfortunately I don't have a Wii U
@AdmiralThrawn Go back to Melee.
@JonathanX Go buy a Wii U. Problem solved.
Who else has already pre-ordered?
@epicdude i plan toooo D
Looking forward to both versions, especially the Wii U version. Getting the 3DS version day one, and I'll probably get the Wii U version as a Christmas gift.
@AdmiralThrawn you know there aren't two types of gamers right? These guys clearly aren't casual gamers as they show passion for video games through great content. So why wouldn't we listen to them? They have played the game, I have not. So I am going to listen to their thoughts
I'm sure this game will look great and play just fine. The 3 things I am most interested are:
How does the amiibo work in practice when 4 people are playing?
Do the Mii fighters feel fleshed out enough to make them worth playing or will they be dominated by the other well rounded characters?
What are we getting to make up for the lack of a Subspace Emissary sequel?
Of course a date would be nice, but that has nothing to do w/ actually playing the game.
It is annoying for me they delayed the 3DS version. Right now would have been perfect. (Haven't been on holiday with my brothers for at least 10 years and probably won't again for ages but they both have 3DS's.)
A week where I could play it properly would have been great.
@SockoMario Can you please lend me some money? Here in Brazil a Wii U costs like... 900 dollars :
@JonathanX Yikes... Hmm... Order one from America?
@Datasun_7 I'm assuming he means casual Smash players.
@Yorumi I think you raise a fair point, and what I was trying to get across here is that the highest level of Melee is to an extent quite exclusive, but you wouldn't know it unless you played with those types of players. In this new version, online play is a more crucial element and, therefore, there's more opportunity for people to potentially come across these high-end players. Nevertheless — and as you astutely note — the game can certainly be enjoyed by many due to its overall simplicity.
"It’s nowhere near as complex as Super Smash Bros. Melee was and thankfully so, as there are plenty of regular players out there who will want to enjoy this too."
Why is this a good thing, I'm really curious to know why in more detail. Melee was never hurt by being complex plenty of people were oblivious to all the more complex skills and happily played it casually for years, I played it for 5 years before I even knew wavedashing existed. Games like Street Fighter, Tekken, Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat 9 and Dead or Alive have huge fanbases made up of people who play both competitively and casual why can't Smash have this and quite a few of those games are very complex at high level.
It’s nowhere near as complex as Super Smash Bros. Melee was and thankfully so, as there are plenty of regular players out there who will want to enjoy this too.
Competitive players really don't care that much about things like having to press buttons at precise times for things like wave dashing and L-canceling. I don't know why so many people have the misconception that they want the game to be hard to play for casuals.
All competitive players really want is a fast paced game that favors offense rather than defense. Slow movement and lots of lag on attacks favors defensive play in general when it comes to fighters (lots of recovery on attacks mean attacks are easily punishable), but Brawl went much further than that with multiple mechanics intentionally designed to discourage competitive play.
As to why less landing lag is important? Did you watch the Grand Finals at E3 2014? Kirby had a nearly impossible time approaching Zero Suit Samus despite clearly outplaying her (the players playing them that is). He couldn't approach safely from the air because of landing lag and of course the ground was taken up by Samus's whip. A game that favors not approaching and playing defensively like Brawl, is considered boring by many. It was what caused the original version of Street Fighter x Tekkan to be condemned, but they thankfully released a patch to mostly remedy the problem, but it was too late to really save the game from the success it might have been.
How many people hated Melee? Very few. Casuals and competitive players alike enjoyed it, even if they didn't play together. Compare that to Brawl, which has a following of casual fans, but is despised by many competitive players. How does focusing development on trying to restrict competitive play exactly even favor casual players? At the end of the day, casual players will never be close to even with practiced competitive players. It was that way even with Brawl.
Please do some research before labeling competitive players are elitists that want casuals to suffer, because frankly these days, I see FAR MORE casual elitists.
Obviously, I'm getting day one just like the 3DS version.
@AdmiralThrawn
''It’s nowhere near as complex as Super Smash Bros. Melee was and thankfully so, as there are plenty of regular players out there who will want to enjoy this too.''
Yup. Pretty much casuals here...By the way, a beginner can enjoy Melee as much as a skilled player, the problem is that this mentality limits the skill cap and makes it a game that the casual player will pick up for 5 minutes and then never play again. This is the only thing that Sakurai doesn't understand. The first people who are going to buy the games are the fans, then come the pros and if they're going around about how bad this game is, Nintendo better prepare some huge advertising campaign...
Don't misunderstand, I love Brawl and Project M and I'm not huge on melee, but the freedom of movement and the high skill cap is very noticeable and I understand when people understand that Brawl is a defensive game thus I really hope Sakurai doesn't make the same mistake again.
@DarkKirby
Well said, I can only hope that new Smash could be in some ways as fun to play as Melee.
YESSSSS
Does anyone actually jump with X and Y? It's quite complicating and uncomfortable.
@AdmiralThrawn
How can you call someone a casual who lives and breaths playing great games? That's just elitism. No one on this site is a "casual" gamer. You don't have to treat games like a sport to be considered "hardcore". These guys represent the vast majority of gamers who will be playing Smash Bros. The same vast majority that the game was designed for and is being targeted towards. His opinion is about as valid as they come.
And here's my opinion on the whole "casual/pro" thing...
From what I understand, Melee was what it was due in no small part to unintended consequences. You can't plan out development of unintended side effects that happen to work in the favor of competitive gaming. Technology has advanced, and glitches/bugs of past games are now being reconciled. This game is exactly the game Sakurai always intended for gamers to play. I feel it's high time people respect what the man wants to make, and enjoy it for what it is. If it's not satisfactorily geared toward competition to the standards you desire, well, you can always go back and keep playing Melee.
As for the rest of us, that don't study the intricate, technical aspects of fighters, get your body ready...
Really getting pumped for some HD Smashing. Of course I'm getting both versions though!
Though I would certainly get the 3DS version if I didn't have a Wii U, I won't simply because both me and my bro would have to buy a copy in order to play together, while with a Wii U version we could both simply play on a nice big screen! 3DS version looks still looks stellar though!
@JaxonH It is kind of funny that although Brawl was heavily criticised for having casual elements like tripping I STILL consider it to be the superior game simply because of the staggering amount of content in that game and the fact that I find it simply more fun.
@DiscoGentleman It does. It's a little faster than Brawl, but not quite as fast as Project M or Melee. It's a perfect mix of the two IMO.
I'll read the full article later. NintendoLife FTW.
Now the only thing we can do now is just to wait.
@AdmiralThrawn Well, yeah. I mean, anyone who can't spend a few hours studying his opponent's artwork and then use that to sweep him in a four-stock match is casual to Grand Admiral Thrawn.
@JaxonH Well I know wavedashing wasn't a bug Sakurai has said in an interview that they knew it was there.
Also we know SSB4 isn't exactly as Sakurai intended Smash to be that would be Brawl with terrible mechanics like tripping which has been discarded because everyone hated it showing that fan input has a place in how Smash is developed and the biggest fans are the competitive players so why should they be ignored.
@Yorumi
I'm not arguing those things shouldn't be in the game. I have no vested interest either way. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. All I'm saying is they're not in the game. And it's his game. He's making it how he wants it to be. And I think people should appreciate it for exactly that, instead of playing backseat developer and dictating what he should or shouldn't do. I can appreciate that some are passionate, but people need to realize if they want a game to be a certain way, they should become a developer. But when you play other people's games, you have to appreciate their envisioning for how it should be.
Nintendo's games are notorious for utilizing random chance to affect play. And Smash is no different. I understand why some are against it, and that's why many don't play Nintendo games to begin with, games like Mario Kart for exampe. They want skill only. Nintendo isn't exactly the best place for that though.
Little Mac doesn't fit in a Nintendo crossover fighting game?
am i missing the point some times wii u. Mario kart upgraded visuals some new bits & a game we all love. SSB upgraded visuals new bits & bobs & the game we all loved. If they brought out a totally different game they would be slammed
@epicdude12302 This game is too precious to pre order. I'm downloading mine at the strike of midnight! Digital FTW!
@Senario
"we are not being accepted by some people despite our efforts to show that we are willing to compromise on some things. If you really want to be exclusionary that is your choice but we never stopped people from having fun their own way"
I keep hearing stuff like this as if competitive players are being "victimized" by heartless casuals. Who's not accepting you? I never said I'm AGAINST certain technical features being in the game. I'm not AGAINST your way of having fun. I don't care what you do, or what's in the game, to be perfectly honest- I'm just calling it what it is and stating the facts. I'm not saying I DON'T WANT those features. I'm just stating an observation that THEY'RE NOT PRESENT. And the reason they're not present is because Sakurai chose for them to not be present. He chose for them to not be present, because he is designing the game in a manner which suits his desires. It's his game, and he can make it how he wishes. And all I'm saying, is people should respect that. If some find it not to their liking, I can understand that. But the game is what it is, ya know? This is how he wants it to be.
Not to mention, all those little tricks in Melee weren't found out about 6 months before launch. It took time. It took people playing it to figure it all out. There might be separate technicalities in this game too, different ones that make IT stand out. But people aren't giving it a chance. They're just judging because it isn't the exact replica of a 10 year old game they want it to be. People didn't know Melee was good until well after it released and they had time to play it a while. AT LEAST give this game the same courtesy. Know what I mean?
@Yorumi
Who said you aren't welcome here? Who said you shouldn't voice your opinions? Man, competitive players sure love playing the victim don't they! I never said any such thing. Voice away. And as always, everyone is welcome here. Idk where how you construed THAT out of my comment, but whatever.
Sure is a lot of whining in here.
Anyway, I do hope the landing lag gets tweaked, though I'm fairly certain it will.
@Senario
If I wanted to tell someone they're not welcome, I'd come right out and say exactly that. Believe me I have no problem speaking my mind. You can rest assured, if that is what I wanted to say, I would have said it.
I also never said people shouldn't criticize. Please, by all means criticize away! I don't know where you're getting this stuff from. Really, you're digging in too deep to what I said I think.
My original post was merely my opinion- that people should respect what the man wants to make, whether it's what they want or not. You say the game is "a widely popular competitive game that goes to the biggest fighting tournaments in the world"> actually, only 1 game of the now 5 different releases fully falls into that category. And that's what I'm getting at. You say Brawl wasn't his envisioning? Well neither was Melee.He's made that clear through the other four entries that are NOT like it- N64, Wii, and now Wii U and 3DS. I understand a small, vocal group want the game a specific way, AND THAT'S FINE, but what I'm saying is people should at least TRY to appreciate the game for what it is, rather than what they personally desire.
You guys are welcome to complain to your heart's content. By all means, knock yourself out. I'm just saying, the original intentions of creating a Smash Bros game was to create a Mario Kart type experience of the fighting genre. Mario Kart is hardly something you can expect to be truly geared towards competitive players- although fans will compete and have fun doing so. Likewise, Smash was never meant to be more than Nintendo's light-hearted take on the fighting genre. I understand you and others want more, AND I RESPECT THAT> all I'm doing is pointing out the truth of the matter- that that was never Nintendo nor Sakurai's intentions.
You are among friends here. We can have a difference of opinion and still be good. You should never take anything I say at more than face value- I'm just sharing my personal view on the matter. I'm not crusading against your cause, ok?
And now we only need some info on what features the WIi U will have that the 3DS doesn't have...
Oh god, there's an argument in the comment section over game mechanics not present in this current iteration.
Look, the way I see it is: in fighting games, learning is key to competition. Just because you're used to one set of mechanics in one game DOES NOT mean it'll transfer to another game with a new set. Melee FANBOYS need to get over this. Just because one game is inherently different in play from another DOES NOT make it less (objectively) competitive. Its one thing to have preferences, its another to dismiss a game entirely based upon your inability to adapt.
@Yorumi
I should have been more specific. My hostility was toward the accusations slandered against me by not one, but two self proclaimed "competitive" players, one of which was you. I should have just come right out and called you by name, because the truth is I don't have anything against competitive players. I was trying to be polite and not call you by name, and it did come off as an attack against ALL competitive players.
Now, when I said "if people want a game a certain way, they should become developers and create that game" I meant it. You're never going to have a game exactly how you desire it to be. If you want an exact experience, you're gonna have to create it- a "want something done right gotta do it yourself" kind of thing. Until then, we have to settle for what's made by others, and enjoy it for what it is.
And IN MY OPINION, that's the problem with uber-fans. They get too demanding on what the next game MUST have and MUST NOT have. Instead of looking at things objectionably like they did before they became fans of that series.
@JaxonH " I understand a small, vocal group want the game a specific way"
It's not a small group of people it's thousands of people who go to tournaments either to cheer on there friends or play themselves, then there are even more who watch tournaments via streams these are the people who love Smash a great deal and keep it relevant when most people have moved on to the next thing.
@Senario
I get it. You don't have to sell me on anything. I was never arguing those features shouldn't be in the game. BUT, I'm not saying they should. All I'm saying, is they aren't. And despite that not being what you want, you (generally speaking, the collective YOU), should just try the game out and see how YOU like it before judging it on a checklist of absent technical features you heard from the next guy. You might like the game MORE this way. You might find DIFFERENT technical moves not present in past games. You don't know until you try it. But people are too busy judging it prematurely.
Thousands, out of 10-20 million, is a small group. And I know competitive players like to take all the credit for keeping the game relative, but there are a ton of normal gamers, like myself, who will play the game for years and years (like Mario Kart) and keep the online just as alive as the competitive people. Only there's millions of us. So let's not get too gung-ho on taking credit for keeping it relative.
@MegaWatts I thought you could customize your controls. I'm pretty sure that was mentioned at least of couple times on this site. You should probably make mention of that in the article.
@Yorumi
If I misread you for saying you were competitive, sorry! My goodness who cares! You're making a mountain out of a molehill! Ever heard that saying? And for goodness sake learn what hypocrisy is. You were putting words in my mouth not five minutes ago, so please.
If I assumed you were competitive, it was probably because you were jumping down my throat with irrational attacks taking a stance in favor of their argument. So it doesn't matter if you are or aren't. I THOUGHT you were, and THAT is why I posted what I did.
You're right, I don't intend to read much of your posts because all you do is attack anyone who goes against your opinion. I didn't respond to anyone's post, I made an objective statement and YOU attacked me for it. Which is seeming to become a trend of late. So you'll understand if I skim your posts, which are nothing but attacks against opinion I have.
The people "just stating their opinion" are NOT who I was referring to. OBVIOUSLY.
Come here. State your opinion. Don't go on full paragraph rants against someone just because they assumed you were a competitive player...
@Yorumi
Dude, shut up and leave it alone already.
I respect Mr. Sakurai in that he's one of the few real auteur game designers in the big leagues (i.e. not an indie developer), and he's responsible for bringing not one but two of my top 3 game series to life - Kirby and, of course, Smash Bros. I do, however, highly disagree with the direction Brawl took, and I'm somewhat worried about this game as a result.
To be perfectly clear, I do not hate Brawl. Brawl was a fun game, and one I regularly played up until a couple years ago when my interest in the competitive scene really took hold of me. But matters of game design are very important to me, and I believe that the designer only makes half of the game. It's up to the players, the community, to take part in designing that other half. It leads to wonderful things like speed runs and, yes, tournament play for games you wouldn't ever expect to see them in. It disappoints me to see a developer I respect take efforts to quash the community just because they took a game in a different direction than intended.
I don't think we should be specifically catered to, either. There's no real reason to do that when the competitive scene is still the minority... But I don't think he should be specifically removing things without suitable replacements, just so the game could have as low of a skill ceiling as possible. Wave dashing and L-canceling are not necessary techniques, and only serve to raise the barrier to entry. So why not simplify things some without cutting out the depth? Universally reduced landing lag and improved movement options, such as Melee-style dashes and momentum would suffice.
Additionally, it strikes me as odd that the one constant of the Smash Bros games is being tinkered with to the point that they've completely missed the point. That is, ledge grabbing and trumping. On grabbing the ledge, you have a short invincibility period. This is there to insure you aren't in a completely disadvantageous position, among other things. Yet here you are able to trump it anyways, regardless if you're still invincible or not. I'm entirely okay with reducing or even removing invincibility on multiple ledge grabs, as it reduces ledge camping, but I feel like this removes the ledge game entirely and makes it more difficult to secure knock outs. Time will tell, however, if this is a negative change...my gut says yes, but it could end up having interesting implications.
Um…well, of course new characters with new mechanics wouldn't feel as natural as series veterans!
@Senario
I'd have to disagree. I think both of you are picking an argument with me when there is none. The only valid point he has is that I misread and assumed he was a competitive player (oh the horror). I'm multi-tasking and skimmed too fast and missed what he said. Mistakes happen. But demanding an apology? You've gotta be kidding me.
You're trying to argue with my opinion- Idk why you're even trying to convince me otherwise. Ok, you played Smash. I never assumed you didn't. What I assumed was that you haven't sat down with the game and played for a month or two, and (correct me if I'm wrong), you haven't done that, right? Playing once at Best Buy isn't really enough to discover all the potential intricacies of the game.
I said it several times now, and I'll say it again. I'm not against your wanting these features in the game. I don't care one way or the other. That's NOT what I'm saying. All I'm saying is people should give the game a chance and evaluate it on its OWN merits, rather than the checklist of merits they want it to have (your checklist, others' checklists, doesn't matter). What I'm saying is people should at least try to enjoy it for what it is, rather than what they want it to be.
And if you try it, and you still don't like it, well at least you gave it a chance. Like I said before, at least you still have games like Melee and Project M to fall back on. But as for me, myself and I? I can tell you right now I'm never playing Melee or Brawl again after this one releases.
I dunno, if Sakurai was on an all out rampage to destroy the competitive scene I doubt For Glory would have ever even been considered and tripping would have stayed.
But that's just me.
@JonathanX Mercado Livre, my friend. Many dealers sell US consoles there. Bought mine there a little over a year ago, for 900 reais (plus an BRL 100 tax for 24 hour delivery, which was totally worth it). Just make sure you're buying from a reputable dealer and you're good to go.
Some thing that bothers me about these comments is that people are making assumptions that Smash 4 will be a horrible game compttivly, and that Sakurai has no clue what he's doing. My issue is that this is a game that the vast majority of us have not played yet. And even the pro players and the people at Best Buy demos played it for short periords of time, hardly enough to make a through judgment.
People are bashing this game all over the internet, but I have a question for everyone. When you first saw Melee trailers, did you think it would become a major tournament mainstay? Did you see anything beyond a party/fighting game hybrid that would be a fun diversion to Street Fighter and other "real" fighting games?
64, Melee, and Brawl's metagames were were not formed in a day, a week, a month, or even a year. It took time to discover all the little tricks that characters can do, exploits in the engine, and other stuff that made those games so popular with competitive players.
Now, Brawl did muddle up things to some degree. Tripping, questionable nerfs of veterans, and slower gameplay messed up Brawl's appeal to competitive gamers.
But Smash 4 seems to be taking a step back from that. The gameplay speed is faster, hitstun seems to be much better, many veterans like Link, Mario, and Samus have all be vastly improved, random tripping is gone, and there seems to be some effort to avoid the same pitfalls Brawl had.
Of course, there are unknowns. How will the new ledge mechanics effect the game for instance.
But to here some people talk, they act like Sakurai flipped the middle finger to the fans and introduced super tripping or some other things that messed up the game.
Maybe Smash 4 will be a disaster like Brawl was in terms of competitive play, but everything I've seen so far seems to show that some improvement has been made.
And that's the thing, for all any of us know, Smash 4 could end up having a very deep and rewarding metagame. People just need time with the game, and comparing to Melee all the time does not help matters.
Smash 64 was its own game, as were Melee and Brawl. Let's see how Smash 4 turns out before we judge it trash.
@Yorumi
Get over your pride man and this whole "I'm the victim, I demand an apology" stuff. You sat there and falsely accused me of saying "You're not welcome here" and again falsely accused me of saying "no one is allowed to criticize" and again right now saying "you KNOW I don't read your posts", simply because I was busy and overlooked a small detail of your previous comments. That would be considered slander, or you could call it lies, or you could lump it into the personal attacks category. I'm not sitting here on my high horse demanding an apology from you for any of THAT. Nor am I demanding an apology for you calling my opinions arrogant. You are not the victim here. You are the aggressor playing the victim.
Some of these comments just go to show there's no satisfying some people. The game is faster. Tripping's out. There's a competitive-only mode online. Numerous people who've played the game have commented that it plays a lot better than Brawl. Character balance seems to be a real priority.
Yet you still get this "Sakurai's a terrible developer because he has his own ideas and didn't write me a letter personally asking how I wanted the game to be" mentality from a FEW people. Chill, guys.
Ugh. The moment I read that sentence about Melee in the article I knew I would scroll down to meet a long string of arguments. Whatever.
As much as I know this will be the superior version visually, not having a Wii U I think the 3DS will suit my needs perfectly. When people describe the 3DS version as being "a warmup for when the real deal arrives in December" I actually get a little upset because the 3DS version is the exact same experience as the Wii U version core gameplay-wise. It's not like the mechanics or character roster will be dumbed down for the 3DS, so I don't understand that mindset at all. It will be an excellent title and a must-have in any 3DS library purely on it's own merits.
Can't please everyone.
So, so, SO EXCITED!!!!
Can't wait to play as the AC Villager!
I came back to this article and read the comment's and you can't please players especially competitive players.God they are so annoying now i had respect for them and it's gone.
@midnafanboy I 100% agree. And this is coming from someone who plays all the Smash games competitively.
@Yorumi I don't care is your opinion, but the thing i hate is competitive players want this game to be melee. And thinking this game is for them is not.This game is to save the wiiu not to please competitive players.People can not accept that and i am sick and tired of hearing them whine about this. Im a serious gamer but this getting ridiculous. You can have an argument with me about this, but you will not change my mind about competitive players sorry.
@Yorumi I'm not insulting them you asked about my opinion about competitive players. I gave it too you.Don't come here asking why im angry i'm not. I'm just giving my opinion about them, i don't like them they whine about this game all over the internet so much. And i'm tired of it, when this game comes out i'm going to hear so many complaining .I'm a casual player on smash bro's cause i just play to have fun that's it. If you're a competitive player fine good for you.But i don't care i gave my opinion about the matter and i'm done have a nice day old sport.
@Yorumi Is my opinion and you asked why, i gave you the answer and you're acting like i did something horrible.If you didn't want to read my opinions then you why asked?Don't come here acting like you're the victim here, just because you read my opinion about the question you asked.Like JaxonH said "get over you're pride man"
As a handheld title isn't as ideal for tournament gaming, and considering that more people own a 3DS, I think it would make sense for Nintendo to make the portable version more accessible, and the Wii U iteration more competitive.
I think this "Melee Brawl Competitive Whatever" problem has less to do with the "skill cap" and more to do with how enjoyable the game is to play at high levels. High level Brawl players will still destroy almost everyone they face (excluding other high level players); but the way to achieve this is through defensive play, which isn't nearly as fun as offensive play. You can train up your "mind games" and work on your ability to read players and bust right through anyone's perceived skill cap, but at the end of the day, you still want to have an enjoyable experience. It is so much more fun and rewarding to be throwing out attacks in a fast paced manner than to sit around dodging and camping until you trick your opponent into leaving themselves open. This isn't an issue about how skilled you can possibly become at the game, but which skills you have to utilize the most in order to be successful. The skills required to master Brawl are not quite as fun as the skills required to master Melee, so Melee wins in the competitive scene because it's more enjoyable to master.
I think this is why people are concerned about some of Smash 4's design choices. They appear to be leaning towards defensive play rather than offensive, which is leaving people worried that the game won't have a lasting appeal because it's not as fun or rewarding to master.
It will be interesting to see the 3DS version work it's wireless muscles in a crowd of hundreds of wireless devices and other electronic interference. I'm hoping it works well so that smash 3ds will be worth playing in a tourney setting.
People can argue as much as they want but at the end of the day the bottem line is the game is only going to be as competitive as the community makes it. None of the Smash Bros games were made with a competitive environment in mind, it was the community that made the games competitive. Advance techniques came as people practiced and found them, whether they were accidental or placed in purposely is irrelevant. Smash 4 WILL be competitive if the community embraces it to be. Any Smash game can be competitive or played at a competitive level it's the communities opinion of it that effects it's life in a competitive environment. Not all competitive fighting games are offensive in style Street Fighter 4 is a fine example it's a game that favors defensive play and yet is still one of the largest competitive games. Brawl was being chastised from the start and yet a competitive community still exits, I'll be it not a large one. It's the communities choice to make the game competitive obviously this choice will be helped or hinderd by mechanics but still. True competitive Smash players play every Smash competitively they don't just play one, they may favor one but they don't exclusively play just one. If your a true competitive smasher you play all the games and learn the mechanics, the ins and outs and play it at a high level. I've played every Smash competitively with the same 2 mains every game. Smash 4 will be no different for me, I look foreword to learning the mechanics and enjoying the game at a competitive level.
@Senario @JaxonH @Yorumi @midnafanboy So many cry babys in this thread!!! lmfao!!!
@midnafanboy No one is saying they want it exactly like Melee I haven't seen one comment like that in the entire article, I think you are confused over the section most of us quoted as I was arguing that being more complex i.e. Melee was never a problem for the casual crowd in the first place.
My goodness. -_-
@Dr_Corndog
True.
And I agree with @JaxonH that it will be the game it is supposed to be from a developer standpoint. If you don't like it the way it is, don't buy it. Simple.
Another thing is that the game isn't even released yet, so better wait until it gets released.
@SuperiorYoshi87
Nice comment. ^^
I wanna see captain falcon.
So are the 3DS and Wii u games the same ? i would rather have the wii u as can see on a bigger screen.
This is going to be the best game of the year i will be upraised if people don't buy a wii u just for this game as so many great other wii u games out.
@SuperiorYoshi87 true in a sense about the community making it competitive but its give and take, the game has to allow that on its end.for instance, capcom vs snk 1 and sf x tekken (pre patch) weren't taken seriously at a competitive level due to issues with mechanics so even though the community wanted them yo be competitive, they just weren't mechanically so a lot will depend on the game and not just the community. Also, sf4 does not favour defensive play.nor does it favour offensive play.thats what makes it brilliant competitively, it is supremely well balanced and probably the best example in videogame history of a game that can cater to competitive and a non-competitve audience with equal aplomb.
@Luna-Harmony same in the sense that the characters and core gameplay are the same but stages are different and both versions will have exlusive modes and such like.as far as im aware they arent going to be like other games where the console and handheld games are almost like two distinctly different games.
The worst thing about SBB are its players. The second worst thing is Masahiro Sakurai.
@Yorumi Let it go brother.
@Yorumi Alright im done im going to walk away, cause this is getting ridiculous now and very annoying.
i dont see what the problem would be of allowing things to be geared more towards competitive play why alienate a whole group of fans in favor of "casual players" when really doing things to get the competitive audience back isn't going to affect casual play.you could make the argument that with online play its necessary to hinder competitive play to give normal players a better chance, but thats still a really poor excuse to do that to so many fans, especially now that we have a for fun and for glory mode.
also i understand the comments about respecting what sakurai wishes to do with the game, believe me i get it. the thing is that respecting what someone wants to do doesnt mean a fan can't complain or make criticisms. criticizing and complaining can actually help a game get better and shouldnt be completely ignored because its not in line with what "insert any name of any person making a game here" was originally thinking.or intending.
@DarkKirby The problem is that the Melee community literally spits on Brawl, and that's undeserved. They come off as narcissistic for their game, belittling Brawl when its main purpose was to expand the audience for Smash, which Melee's scene repaid in kind with extreme bashing and eventually modding to make Brawl into MORE MELEE.
I honestly think that, as long as the game still uses the auto-cancel from Brawl, we should be straight. L-Cancel (smooth landings) made some characters too good in the air, and guys like Lil Mac would be straight up STUPID in this game if they can manually reduce recovery frames. They just need to speed up the actual recovery frames on the characters appropriately, but NO manual cancels, please.
@MussakkuLaden Sakuria busts his a$$ off to make these games, and to call him the 2nd "worst" thing about Smash Bros. is disgusting.
@Rin-go thank you ^_^
@heyzeus002 Well my comment of SF4 was going off of what friends of mine who play it competitively say they always told me it favored defensive play. So I can't debate that nor do I want to lol. My comment still stands though on I believe it's largely the community even more so than mechanics because it's the communities opinions of those mechanics to say whether or not they are competitive as in my personal view there is no deffinets in what is and isn't a competitive mechanic it's a matter of opinion. However I will agree to disagree as we obviously have different opinions on that subject and I respect that I'm not looking to add another argument to the "Sm4sh isn't going to be competitive argument". I'm just saying the true players will play it and do so at a high level. It's life cycle will depend on the mass opinion of the game. Even if EVERYONE dosent embrace Sm4sh it's still going to have a competitive following I can gaurenteed anyone who is in the competitive Brawl community will most likely adopt Sm4sh as their new chosen game. Melee players probably won't because it's different then the game they've been playing for 10 years and a lot of people don't like change.
@Yorumi If you play against casuals in enough games, you'd understand. I do, so I do understand. Consider this example:
-You and your 3 friends play Fighter X. You're the only one that understands the mechanics/glitches/exploits/tricks/techniques in it at an advanced level (pretty much everything a competitive player would take advantage of unless it's explicitly banned).
-Because of this, you easily win. Over and over again. The chances of you losing are extremely low, and if you do lose, your friends question if you let them win.
-Over time, either your friends get better, or the amount of them that want to play Fighter X goes from 3/3 to 0/3.
That's the basic gist of it. The point is to make it so that, even with advanced players, the possibility of winning doesn't seem so far out of reach that it doesn't deter those guys' friends from wanting to play/purchase the game too. Brawl did that, and sales for the game reflect the goodwill from it. My cousin (who's definitely a casual gamer) actually showed some pride in improving while playing Brawl, and it's one of the few fighting games I can suggest to play left in my house. Yea, his chances of winning are practically zilch, but it's not a complete curb stomp like it'd be if I were hard core in Melee and played him in that...or just played him in SF or Tekken or something.
@Senario Here's the thing about Lil Mac:
-His ground game isn't like Kirby's. His ground game is purposefully made to be the best in the game, or one of the best.
-His air game's built to be the worst in the game, or one of the worst.
If he's able to shffl to abuse air attacks with little to no lag while having a god tier ground game, what do you think that makes? A complete MONSTER. That simply isn't smart balancing. The point of removing smooth landings was to deter abusing short hops to throw out free, fast aerials on characters that shouldn't be able to launch them that fast. Kirby doesn't fit that example because he's not meant to be sluggish in the air, or a heavy hitter outside of his forward smash and hammer. If you can keep yourself from abusing short hops in-tandem with fast-falls, you can just have the auto-cancel cancel your move's animations for free by gauging the height of your jumps when attacking.
@NINTENDCHIP im just gona chime in with my problem with that. a competitive player takes time to master these advanced mechanics and tricks for competitive play. they aren't doing it to completely destroy casual players and friends (unless that friend happens to be another competitive player xP ) so they most likely aren't gona be doing any of these advanced mechanics during a casual match (unless of course theyre playing with friends who are also competitive and they choose to play a competitive match). also as i stated before that way of thinking is made even weaker with the for glory and for fun mode
@randomlypikachu Oh you'd THINK they wouldn't destroy you. I have friends that are competitive in fighting games I've never played before. They WILL NOT HESITATE. If you're completely hopeless, they might hold back for a second or two, but freaking trust me on this one. They will NOT hesitate.
Like I said: I have a bit of everything. I'm skilled in a decent slew of games. I'm not in others. I have friends that are totally casual, and others that aren't, but are better or worse than me at certain games. I've had experiences from just about every stand-point you could ask me to look at it from.
@Yorumi Brawl still sold better earlier on in the Wii's lifetime anyway. Part of that can be thanks to the reputation it earned from the previous entries, but part of that is also due to the longevity it gained in stores from people enjoying the game instead of getting crushed all year long.
Secondly, it's not about punishing skilled players. It's making sure skilled players aren't light years ahead of players trying to get better, so that those that aren't as good don't give up. Also, what about Brawl was a "coin flip"? Even if you don't like Brawl, to say it's based on a lucky coin flip is a tad -> elitist <- (right word this time). Anytime I win in Brawl I know it's based on my skill unless they tripped into my wining Smash attack when we're both on our final stocks at high percentages...which never happened. Regardless, based on the second paragraph, you hardly understand what I'm trying to convey to you.
And the third paragraph is once again about punishing better players. Look, I don't see what's in Brawl that punishes better players. Tripping was added to punish those that start and stop dashing too much (part of that schizo-looking meta from Melee), but as far as punishing you for being better in general? Nothing. So why are you saying it like if you become good in Brawl, you magically lose stocks? It's not about hand-outs when there's no items on, anyway, so that's also sort of moot.
@Yorumi You're still not understanding what I'm saying.
I'm not saying the most skilled player shouldn't win. I'm saying the skill cap for what's considered "good" shouldn't be barred by things like "You should be able to consistently input 6-7 different commands per second in order to shffl properly". It's about making sure that even if someone's good, the possibility of ever winning against them isn't so unbelievably low that people get deterred from playing the game. You can even out the playing field a bit without making a game either Mario Party or Street Fighter.
Secondly, no, the way you bring skill levels closer together can come in many ways. Yes, you can include random elements that punish skilled players, but you can also simplify/polish a game so there's less to be skilled at in the first place. That isn't punishment. That's just lack of a gain. The lack of shffl-ing and "wave dashing" isn't a punishment. It's just a lack of those things. So that slows down those that would otherwise use them, but it's not an in-game punishment for knowing how to use them.
I don't hate Melee. I hate Melee's elitist community, though, and I definitely spite the game to some degree due to them selling Brawl short at every possible turn. Brawl did what it was supposed to do: Expand the fan base. It did it well. Why Melee players make it look like a raw turd...I have no clue.
@Senario As far as Mac goes: He's a boxer. Insanely fast, good counter, etc. The point is for him to use combos to build damage, STAY ON THE GROUND, and then use a finisher to send them from the ground to straight up KO. His domain is the ground, not the air. If he's able to cancel his air attacks' landing lag, he can use the faster aerials in-tandem with short hops, fast falls, and smooth landings to give himself more options than he's supposed to have based on his character design. The point of it is to make sure each characters falls inline with the strengths and weaknesses they were designed to have. Abusing the ability to make faster attacks out of aerials was seen as a problem in that regard, and thus removed.
As for skilled players being light years ahead, the FGC has been fixing that since SF4. Easier windows for combos, more competent combo breaking options, high-reward moves like Ultra Combos in SF4, and so forth. Fighting games have been taking steps to tone down the difficulty and huge learning curve for half a decade and counting. You can have a competitive game that can invite newcomers to be good at it too. The game doesn't have to crush peoples' spirits because you want the greatest of canyons between you and your opponent.
I don't just play fighters. I play MANY types of games competently. Pokemon, fighting games, racing games, RPGs, platformers. I'm definitely no slouch to hardcore gaming. Still, I'm not gonna sit here and say the demanding input speed for shffling was a great system mechanic that made the game look great. It looked choppy and buggy with all that speedy, jerky movement, and all those inputs just for the sake of MOVING, let alone fighting, was ridiculous.
Lastly: Lowering landing lag? Yea, fine. I didn't say I was against that. Not to the point of zipping around the stage like Melee, but somewhat if need be, sure. Good dashing mechanics? Outside of tripping, there's no need to make mention of it in the first place. Fast-falling? The point is that landing lag from incomplete attacks punishes the mindless use of fast-falling. Short-hopping? If you use short hops responsibly, you can avoid landing lag on most of your moves, anyway. i don't despise competitive play. I despise the Melee community's elitist mindset when addressing Brawl, which in-turn causes me to spite the game to some degree as well, which I don't think is unwarranted.
@Yorumi First off: Just because Brawl didn't sell 21 MILLION COPIES just to satisfy your demands of what expanding an audience "should" be, doesn't mean it didn't expand the audience and sell well. The point is that each version sold more than the last version. Saying "because there's 3 times as many of this console, there should be 3 times as many sales" isn't exactly fool-proof logic. Asking any game to sell 10 million is already a HUGE success. Why on Earth are you tossing around 21 million like it's easy and expected for ANY game to hit?
Secondly: You act like you're making points like Senario, but all you've done is say "If it isn't 100% hard core skills, it's Mario Party". So you haven't noticed how fighting game design has turned to ease their difficulty curves for newcomers for the past half a decade? All of a sudden Smash can't do this too?
Can,t wait to put my hands on villager too! smash is always awesome! and ready to own some of you guys online.
Can;t wait for some HD Mega Man!
@Yorumi 1) If you honestly, truly think that Brawl under-performed because it didn't reach TWENTY-ONE MILLION SALES, you can just stop replying now.
Remember: TWENTY-ONE MILLION sales is what you're telling me. How many games have ever even broken 10? Break out numbers like those are extremely rare, and you're saying Brawl under-performed because, even though it hit 11, it didn't hit TWENTY-ONE? I really want you to double and triple check yourself before confirming that.
2) My complaint isn't that skilled players win. It never was. All this tells me is that you don't really what I'm typing. So for the last time: The complaint isn't that skilled players win. It's that the things one had to master in Melee to be "good" in it were extremely demanding for the type of game it was. Removing that stuff helps push the overall appeal of the franchise to a wider audience, regardless of what the competitive minority thinks. If you can't comprehend that, then Idk what to tell you. You keep saying I'm saying the same things, and I keep having to correct you, only for you to bypass that correction to say I'm saying the same things as before. It's going around in circles because you aren't comprehending what I'm telling you.
@Yorumi 1) No, I have NO IDEA what you're getting at with the MK8 example...none at all.
I knew you had problems comprehending me, but this is absurd. Sales performance isn't ENTIRELY based on one factor or the other. MK8 didn't sell poorly because there's less Wii Us out than Wiis, so we can't expect a huge number of MK8s sold in comparison to MK Wii. That is true, but at the same time, you can't say Brawl under-performed for not selling 21 million copies. Now you're just being annoying. There's only 3 franchises that I can recall that's ever done those numbers: Mario Kart, GTA, and CoD. You're saying Brawl failed because it didn't hit that number? That's not how sales performance works.
2) You forget that ALL GAMES HAVE SKILL CAPS. How high they are depends on the vision of the devs, fan demand, and so on. There's no game out there with literally no artificial skill cap because we play with balancing, unlike real life sports where the object is to be as OP as possible and win on your own or with a team. With that said, are you sure you had fun playing Melee against those that DID use those techniques while you COULDN'T? That's the difference, and less people will say yes than no. You can feign ignorance to what I'm conveying all you want, but you're in the minority on this one. Hence the changes to the game.
Damn you two are still going at it?Now that's hilarious.
How is melee complex you have to be some type of village idiot to think that. Being close the the sharpest entry the series is a bad thing wow lol. It looks alot like brawl 2.0.
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