Topic: BotW is Better than TotK

@Cia

Nowhere in the game it is said that there is a connection between Calamity Ganon and Ganondorf. Sure some characters mention the Calamity, but not the connection. Heck, Malice is now called Gloom all of a sudden! If only 1 character would say: "So that's why we suffered the Calamity, because Ganondorf was still held in the underground and not entirely dead". It would have meant a lot to me, now its just yet another "Ganondorf is back" story to me.

By the way, I have still to do the endboss, but I don't expect any dialogue that makes the connection.

I think the implications are clear. Even if it’s not directly stated, we know Calamity Ganon first emerged from within the castle, the malice and gloom are basically different variations of the same substance, and we know there’s a leaky Ganondorf under the castle.

So it’s not hard make the connection that Calamity Ganon must simply be what happens when Ganondorf’s gloom has had enough time to concentrate and become strong enough on its own.

I didn't love the loss of overall gameplay and story cohesion that came with BotW (though I know some really embrace the freedom), and most of that carried into TotK. I was one of the people who missed the key items and a more focused adventure. For instance, even though they re-introduced themed dungeons, every dungeon follows the same pattern of four or five "locks" in a main room that need to be undone, cue the boss, same same, ugh. Not to mention fairly similar lead-ups to each dungeon of meeting the champion, learning their power, solving a puzzle or two.

I don't know... I guess I'm just old and jaded now. Am I crazy or did past Zelda games feel way more spontaneous and organic with their dungeons and the lead-ups to them? I'm thinking like the Well in Ocarina of Time, the Swamp dungeon in Link to the Past, the trading line in Link's Awakening, even escorting the Rito girl in Wind Waker through that dungeon. Those things felt like developers really spent some time on them and did different things with them so that the games as a whole didn't feel copy-pasted. In TotK, every time I went to do the next dungeon, I knew exactly the gameplay chute I was going to be forced down. I just feel like these massive modern games seem spectacular on the surface, but if you did a bit more than the average joe, you uncover a ton of copy-paste sort of stuff that just lets you down.

All said, I honestly don't know which game I prefer. I really hope we don't get another Zelda game like BotW and TotK, though. Both of these games have sort of turned me off from Zelda, which I never thought could happen. I freakin' loved Zelda my whole life, but both of these games were tough for me to stay engaged with, and both have failed to make me want to see everything.

Pretty much agree with @cunir

Give me a way more focused adventure for the next one.

@rallydefault
I really don't understand putting the dungeons above all other content. To me, the dungeons were the most boring part of the old games too. The overworlds were always the best part of Zelda and BotW/ TotK is all about that.

You will never get the old school Zelda back because Zelda is Nintendo's crownjewel and it's suppose to challenge and beat all other industry leading open world games. It's not suppose to fade into cult obscurity with decades old game mechanics.

@Cia What I'd like to know is, did none of these people who reckon that the old school Zelda dungeons are better ever run into a brick wall of a puzzle that they couldn't solve that completely halted their progress through the game? When the gameplay is almost entirely linear, and there's nothing else to do, it's a recipe for making the more casual players give up.

The Water Temple in Ocarina of Time is infamous for this, even, and there are plenty of other examples. I suppose we are now in an era where it's possible to just go on the internet and look up the solution but if what you want is spontaneous and organic play, being able to go off and do something else while you think it over seems far more amenable to that.

Anyway, this certainly isn't a problem for either BotW and TotK. The only price I'd think that they have to pay for it is the decoupling of the story from progress through the game, and you can't really time a dramatic plot twist when practically everything is skippable.

@Cia
I'm not sure of your history and experience, but for me, I was old enough to buy the original Zelda game and play it at launch; Zelda games, for me, have always been a bit more about the dungeons, with "the rest" being a healthy-yet-slightly-less-large part of the experience. I would say it was only with the advent of Ocarina that the overworld became basically balanced with the dungeons. The dungeons are what got you through the game, at the end of the day, and many memories of the older Zelda games revolve around the dungeons, not really the overworld.

I disagree with the notion that a full-fat, "old school" Zelda game couldn't do insane sales numbers for Nintendo. Open world games have certainly been the flavor for the last while, but I would argue that it's been showing signs of slowing down recently. The climbing towers, assaulting outposts, collecting feathers, skinning raccoons open-world genre is starting to get stale. Plus, Nintendo doesn't need to use "decades old" mechanics, I'm just saying I would appreciate a more focused Zelda adventure once again. (Anyway, I would say the open world stuff is starting to feel decades old as well.)

Do you really not get sick of the same, same, same in BotW and TotK? Any time I show up to a new stable I know exactly what is gonna happen: Penn heard some rumor, the musicians need to play for the fairy, and the stable dude needs me to take a picture of something. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat. Oh, look - there's another dude who needs to hold up his sign. Rinse and repeat. Another well. Another cave. Another tower. Another shrine. I need to see this weapon. Great, now show me this weapon. Now this weapon. Take pictures of everything. Copy. Paste. Copy. Paste. Add slight variation.

I'm done with it, personally.

@Matt_Barber
Well, as a kid in the era you are describing, I'll be honest: We had a lot of dedication lol. I remember getting stuck in the Water Temple. For hours. And hours. But back in those days, you were a kid with way more time on your hands, friends who likely owned the game as well, AND you probably had a very limited amount of games you were playing in the first place (I only received a new game on my birthday and Christmas - those were the days haha), so you would just buckle down, retread your steps over and over again until something clicked. Sure, it was frustrating, but you always got through it one way or the other. The internet wasn't readily available for many families, but I did have strategy guides for a lot of my games, and Nintendo Power was usually good for early levels of the big games.

@rallydefault
There's a lot more variation in both TotK and BotW compared to the older games. More weapons, more variation in how to solve puzzles, more variation in the puzzles by a landslide compared to your old "light a torch or push a block on a button", more environmental variation, more items you can use, environmental effects variation... the list goes on.

Then there are the sidequests and side adventures. They always have different content. You mentioned Penn. One time you need to "save" the fake Zelda from the Yiga clan, another time you need to find a new animal species, etc. All the quests are different. Isn't that the definition of variation? In TotK I especially loved the multi- phased quests from Hateno, Kakariko Village, Zora's Domain and Tarrey Town. Yeah, the new Zelda games have a lot more villages than the older ones... so once again, more variation.

And now there's this annoying doubt again. What is my experience in terms of Zelda games? I've beaten all the official ones , most of them multiple times.

Finally, you say an old school Zelda game could sell a lot. The fact is, however, that BotW and TotK are the highest selling entries by a landslide. If we look at history, Skyward Sword was released at the same time as Skyrim. Guess which one sold more? Yeah, Skyrim, and the difference in sales was huge. Same goes to Wind Waker/ San Andreas situation. Open world games sell more because people love playing with physics in huge open environments. If GTA series ditched the open world format and the physics playing aspect, do you really think they would sell as much as they have?
No, people would be disappointed beyond belief.

@Matt_Barber
Well, you could skip the memory stories from both BotW and TotK, but why would anyone want to do that? Zelda's part of the story in TotK especially was so masterful I'm sure most people want to find all the geoglyphs. The intro was so good people would certainly want to know more about the mummy they found from underground and what exactly happened to Zelda after she fell. In my opinion finding the geoglyphs is the most important activity in the game aside from the towers and solving the main quests of Zoras, Gorons, Ritos and Gerudos.

I haven't finished TOTK, so this may change, I am close, very, I want to knock out every shrine and interesting quest before I tackle the final area/boss.

For me, BOTW certainly has something that TOTK lacks, for sure, but TOTK resonated more with me as a game whereas BOTW clicked more with me as an experience, if that makes sense. I think people seriously underestimate BOTW's narrative, I find it thematically cohesive in a way few games are, simple yes, but it's a game wrestling (as Zelda does) with its legacy and the weight of the past. TOTK has a better overall trajectory of the plot but it isn't as memorable for me, actually. BOTW also has a beauty and reverence for nature that makes it a sublime experience but compared to TOTK it feels the more awkward game.

I'm actually surprised that people find TOTK cumbersome or slow because the improvisation nature of the abilities meant I have rarely spent any time grinding or searching, there's been much less trial and nature, it's felt remarkably fluid. I would say the controls are quite awkward for the first dozen hours (and surely could have been streamlined) but now it feels like second nature, but that might be more a result of the ungodly number of hours I've spent with the game.

@Cia
I don't know what to tell you. I just don't see things that way at all. I see repetitive overarching structures and too much game. It's not what I enjoy playing.

An old-school Zelda on Switch would sell incredibly well. Would it sell 30 million like BotW? Lol probably not. But I bet it could sell more than Ocarina.

So yea, I mean, if your bar for "make it or don't make it" for future Zelda games is having to sell as much as BotW, then I guess every game from now on better be open world. I know people love open world games. It's been proven in the sales over and over again. I dislike open world games, and there will always be places in the market for non-open-world games.

@Henmii
The connection is so obvious it doesn't need to be stated directly. I mean, the game is full of talk about BotW's events. So, we know it's a sequel. Now what else could be the cause of the repeating phenomena of Calamity Ganon than Ganondorf?

In one of the cutscenes of TotK even Zelda states that Ganondorf's name alone sounds bad to her or something, probably because she makes the connection between Ganon and Ganondorf.

@mr_somewhere
Yeah, at some point using the abilities and fusing weapons becomes easy. But the learning curve for using these controls fast is very high. In BotW, you mastered everything pretty much instantly. Not after 50 hours.

Also, you said you didn't spend time grinding? Just upgrading the Diamond Circlet required me a tremendous amount of grinding. Same goes to all full armor sets.

I finished BotW once again, but this time after finishing TotK.

To me, BotW is the perfect game. I can't found a single thing from it I'd consider a flaw.

Leveling up armor sets requires an equal amount of grinding on both games. Except perhaps TotK makes it easier to collect dragon parts now that you can just camp on them indefinitely.

Then again, upgrading armors fully (or at all) is completely optional on both games.

Not really. You can farm dragons far faster by camping out at their spawn points in BotW, which become fully predictable after you've completed their associated quests. Farosh can be respawned in under a minute, making it one of the best sources of loot in the game.

In contrast, TotK makes you wait a full ten minutes. Sure you can spend that time camped out on the dragon, so you don't have to find it again, but that's not exactly a recipe for riveting gameplay.

TotK has more armor sets and typically requires more exotic materials for the fourth upgrade too, so it's very obviously a bigger grind overall. It's probably not one you'd be taking on in either game until you've beaten the final boss though, so I'd agree with that much.

@Matt_Barber I’m not sure how many people would want to upgrade every armor piece in either game though… The grind largely depends on which sets the person wants to upgrade. (However, the point is that it still is /a grind/ on both games)

What I can say, from my own personal experience playing both games a lot, is that I upgraded more pieces, and even maxed out more than a full set, in TotK. Whereas in BotW I never really got any piece past three stars.

If they’re ultimately easier to upgrade or simply more desirable to upgrade, I can’t say, but the fact is I found myself doing it more in TotK.

@Eel Yeah, it's a grind in both games but it's also a significantly larger one in TotK.

There are more armor sets overall, additional items required for the final upgrade on sets common to both games, a cost in rupees for all upgrades that significantly outstrips that of the fairies for BotW, rare drops that you can only farm for a couple of times per blood moon even at relatively low levels, the ten minute limit for dragon farming and the need to use the upgrade items for other things like battery upgrades and fusing weapons.

I suppose TotK does have a few things going for it, in that it's much easier to find all four fairies and that you don't need to pay to unlock them. So, if your aim is just to go into that final boss fight with the level four Hylian armor, you're at a slight advantage with it.

You are going to hit the point of diminishing returns pretty soon though, and I'd think that the best sets from both games - the Zonaite and Ancient ones - rather favors BotW in terms of the grind required.

@Cia I didn't bother much with armour this time, too much of a faff, I happened to have the materials I needed for what I wanted to upgrade, but to be honest it could well be that I was more meticulous compared to BOTW. I haven't had to search for materials in the way I had for BOTW, I don't think I've ever used the search function on the pad outside of a quest or two.

One more point to BotW: the swords actually have cool looking sheathes. TotK also have them, but only for the non- fused decayed or pristine weapons.

The moment you fuse something to your sword, the sheathe vanishes and the sword just somehow hangs on Link's back. And you HAVE to use monster parts if you want to do any kind of decent dmg.

The Master Sword is the only exception because its shape always returns to normal after a while.