
An inescapable reality within the eSports world, regardless of the game in question, is the stark contrast between male and female participants. Whatever the culprit, the stories of many female professionals are often squashed, missed or, even worse, stunted before they even begin.
Lilian "Milktea" Chen is, as her own website proclaims, a "semi-retired" professional Super Smash Bros. Melee player. Her pedigree extends back as far as the early 00's, when she travelled to and placed at regional and national tournaments throughout her teenage years, often as the only woman in the room. She has carried those experiences into a tenure with TED (Technology, Entertainment, Design), is a continued eSports enthusiast, designer, and a woman with a lot to say about the community she loves.
In terms of social inclusion, where do you see the professional Smash Bros scene in 2015? Is there any noticeable change from when you first began?
The strides regarding social inclusion in Smash can be seen for themselves! There are so many active women in the competitive Smash community, from talented players to tournament organizers. I currently do not actively follow Smash 4, but I've heard that there are several skilled female competitors in the scene. So badass!
Why is competitive gaming so hard on women? Can you use any personal experiences to illustrate this?
This is a hard question to answer without generalizing too, too much. To keep it short, I really liked one of Stef "PidgeZero"'s explanations I stumbled across online: socialization. I feel like many reasons for the skewed gender ratio in gaming can be traced back to this alone. The byproduct of the gender imbalance has definitely also lead to behaviors and social dynamics that are not always the most welcoming.
I've got a few personal experiences, but I hesitate to go into detail about them for two reasons. I don't want to accidentally speak on behalf of all women, and I also don't want to be accused of victimizing myself any further. The things I discussed in my TED Ed Talk give some introductory insight into some of the barriers I faced.
There definitely is some relation with social comparison theory, I think, especially when much fewer of something exists in one space. You can definitely see related effects in places like female NASCAR driver Danica Patrick, or other female athletes in which the highest accomplishments of one is seen as the highest standard for all who exist in that category. Even as you say you don't want to speak for all women, I'm curious if you've experienced people commonly interpreting your tournament results as the highest bar that a woman could reach?
I don't believe I've ever encountered any specific person who has outright told me that either I, or another woman I knew, has reached the peak for all women entirely. With that said, I've certainly experienced behaviors or comments that have made me feel that way, though.
In one of my first posts about my personal journey through Smash, I had written that I grew hesitant of playing friendlies at tournaments because large crowds would start to gather behind me. Large crowds make sense when there are top players or grudge-matches happening, but I can't help but believe that for me, it was solely because I was one of the few women in the room. It made me nervous that I was unfairly representing other women in the scene (since there were so few at the time).
Luckily, I think this accidental stereotyping has started to fade as more prominent women enter our community. One of the larger messages I hope to send out in the near future is that there doesn't have to be one type of ideal woman who games! Every type is welcome.
Let's talk about the TED talk you gave for TED Youth. How did you get to do the speech?
It's actually a funny story! I've always been rather quiet around new people. As a result, not many people at TED knew much about my alter-ego "Milktea", though a select few did. They tried very hard to persuade me to give a talk at our annual staff retreat about competitive Smash. I eluded her persuasion for years. The idea of public-speaking for an introvert just didn't appeal!
Fast forward a few years, I organized and moderated the The New Meta panel with the NYU Game Center. It was that year I decided to challenge myself and push my boundaries: I asked our staff if I could give a talk at our annual retreat. They were shocked, but happy. I think what caught *all* of us off-guard was the presentation and content of my talk. Nobody saw it coming (myself included).
My colleagues ended up really enjoying my first public speaking "event" ever! Before I knew it, I was invited to speak at TED Youth (and play Smash with the kids who attended)! My colleagues have been nothing but supportive from that day until now. I wouldn't be where I am now without them.

You say your colleagues...what do you do nowadays when you're not playing Smash?
I moved to NYC after landing a design job post-graduation at TED. I designed for them for three and a half years and only recently decided that it was time for a new chapter in my life. Despite having to part ways with my badass colleagues, I left TED so that I could pursue more forms of design and figure out what it is I want to do in the near future.
I'm interested in several forms of design: product, UX, front-end, visual, and identity. What surprises me most is that recently, I've found that a lot of these skills are needed and overlap within the growing eSports industry. There are so many roads, I just have to spend some time narrowing it down to which few I want to walk down.
I grew up following professional Smash Bros as both a player and a fan. Given that the Smash Bros. scene had before - and in some ways continues to - struggle with sexist attitudes, much of your early playing career was inexorably tied by several within the game to your personal relationships. What were some of the difficulties balancing the game you loved with your personal life, as both a young person and as a woman? I remember some of the vitriol, even as just a bystander.
Ah. I assume when you say "personal relationships" you are referring to the people I dated from within the Smash community? I tried to tune most of the gossip around that but now that you've asked, I do recall a lot of unsolicited remarks about my relationship history.
Some of the most frequent comments I heard were various forms of slut-shaming and/or accusations that I only acknowledged/dated top players. Given the fact that some of my best friends I've met through Smash are players that nobody has heard of, I can't say I agree.
That aside, I still have yet to figure out why it should be perceived as a horrible taboo if people pursue dating others who clearly share common interests in a very niche community. Have you ever tried explaining streaming, tournaments, and who the heck Mew2King is to a non-competitive gamer? It's tough! Hah.
It is difficult to answer how I balanced my gameplay with these types of attitudes since it has been so many years. If I recall correctly, I tried my hardest to take all the vitriol with a grain of salt. It's very easy to buy into gossip when you don't know the individual being gossiped about personally. I stuck closely to my trusted friends within the Smash community and focused on the gameplay itself.
I still remember meeting one of my more recent homies in Smash, the memory sticks out rather vividly. Upon bonding with each other, he told me how surprised he was that I was so "cool", given all the terrible things he had heard about me for the past several years. You might find that remark to be harsh, but it's something I've grown accustomed to and I appreciated his honesty. It just goes to show: Be yourself and in due time, you will begin to dismantle those preconceived notions.
I asked because I wanted to gauge whether you were content to continue moving the needle on social issues or not. There definitely has been a recent trend of notable female gamers who continue face harassment from strangers, and often the debates objectively fall outside the line of anything resembling a true dialogue. Do you have any aspirations to continue raising public awareness on feminist and other human right issues in the eSports community?
The short answer is yes. From time to time I realize that my odd upbringing in the Smash community has given me this ability to approach these topics in an oddly empathetic way. As a result, I genuinely believe that I can help to some capacity, and I'd feel terrible if I neglected that feeling. Though, I'll have to somehow figure out a way to pursue this while also juggling my design career!

You released a pretty cool video on your trip to the Smash Bros. Invitational at last year's E3. Can you talk about that experience, and what it was like interacting with Nintendo first hand?
Thanks! Flying out to partake in the Smash Invitational is definitely not a thing I ever expected to do, ever. I was in shock from when I first found out I'd be attending until probably after the event itself ended. How was it that playing a video game enabled me to experience this awesome adventure!? I have no idea.
To sum up interacting with Nintendo in one word: Fun. Not kidding. Not only were they fun as a group of people, but they wanted us to solely focus on having fun. Everyone I met who worked with them simply wanted us to have an amazing time, and they made that crystal clear to us. It was a very stark contrast, going from the workholic New York city to the Invitational! I'd say that was probably one of the best weeks of my life, so mission accomplished, Nintendo!
Where do you see the Smash Bros community at large years down the road?
If we can continue the pace we're going at right now, it will potentially be HUGE! Smash is one of those classic games that can be played at a massive range of levels, from party game to competitive. I don't doubt that the scene's growth will continue to grow at its accelerated rate, especially considering the expansion of eSports overall. The question is, how many women will we have in the scene in a few years?
We'd like to thank Lilian Chen for her time.
Main Image credit: Ryan Lash
Comments 55
She's kinda hot. It's a shame hearing that she was accused of whoring her way to victory, just seems like a very typical and unintelligent comment by unnoteworthy and jealous people.
The reports of women getting harassed anonymously online are essentially worthless. They need to control for the fact that sex is one of the only characteristics about a person that you can tend to infer from someone's username and avatar.
It's not that people target women in particular. It's that trolls and bullies try and latch onto any fact about you they think they can use.
To get a meaningful understanding of whether this problem actually exists, you'd need to compare it in a context where online trolls can also see things like race, sexual preference, maybe hair colour (if you're a redhead). All of these other factors that could be targeted as well.
If you did that, I'd predict you'd actually see whether there's a genuine hostility to certain characteristics or if it's actually (as I'd hypothesize) just a natural bully technique that is incredibly general.
@Fazzie_Bear really what did she do?
This is a really refreshing interview. She doesn't victimize, she doesn't point fingers, she acknowledges mistakes from both ends! Lilian, you have my upright respect as a Smash player, and my admiration as a collected observer of tournament-related gender discrepancies!
@Dezzy A strong point!
It really sucks that there are still a few male gamers who can't handle women being good at GASP video games. It ruins it for the rest of us who just want to have a fun time! There should be room for all of us... It's 2015, the times have changed!
@97alexk She socialized within the Smash community. OH THE HORROR! Bonding over common interests? That's crazy talk!
Wow, you can be a professional smash bros player? That sounds great...not that I'd ever get to that level but kudos to those who can. And kudos to Lilian who sounds like a calm, reasonable person who's shrugged off the nastier elements of the community with maturity and stoicism.
I still wonder why it is that less women get into competitive gaming, and why women seem to place lower than men in the majority of e-sports. I think it may have something to do with the fact that women are discouraged from playing games when they are younger (due to social expectations) and so have less experience. I think one of the most high-placing women in e-sports is Scarlett in StarCraft2, and starcraft is transgender, which raises the question if there is anything biological which gauges our ability to play games? Maybe its such a big social stigma for women to play e-sports, so that many potentially great female gamers decide against pursuing e-sports
It is also great to see more female smashers in smash4, such as Officer Jenny and Nicole.
@whodatninja I would argue that there are people who fall to the obvious bait of trolls just to incite a fire within a certain community due to my cynicism but that is neither here nor there. That is what trolls want, inciting controversy and Lilian has shown how to handle it with logic, finesse and arguments that will win anyone over. For that alone, she's a great person in my book.
Lilian is someone I can respect, she plays it cool and produces good counter points.
back in melee days, I had the idea that'd I'd marry any woman who could beat me in smash. Maybe I should have gone to tournaments?
I think testosterone is the driving force behind competitive gaming. women have significantly less of it than men, and tend to avoid competition. There are also men with less testosterone that tend to avoid competition too. testosterone tends to be a major factor.
there may be a nurture aspect to it, but I think that's mattering less and less as the wii made gaming socially acceptable to everyone instead of just "loser guys". Although I think another factor making males more competitive is societies view of the genders and how their value is determined, though the argument could be made that it's based on testosterone and estrogen's effects on men and women respectively.
Men are judged by their accomplishments. a man who works a dead end entry level job, stays in his room all day playing video games and collecting amiibo is generally considered a loser by society, while men who are accomplished and stay in their room all day playing video games and collecting amiibo are considered winners. for men, it's accomplishment. so the best smash players are heros, and everyone else are just losers that play video games too much. so men tend to strive to be better than the rest, this drive tends to be magnified by testosterone.
Women tend to be judged by society based on their beauty. the more estrogen (at least a certain kind) one has, the more "beautiful" she appears. whether she is good at smash or not, her value according to society is unchanged. if she wants to be accepted by the smash community, all she really need to do, is be attractive, whereas a man will only be accepted if he is good at the game, otherwise he's a failure as a man in the smash community's eyes. So, both looking for acceptance from others who like the same game, one gender has to be good at the game to be accepted, while the other has a choice of being attractive, or being good at the game, the former being either natural, or a result of makeup which also benefits the individual outside of this community, the latter taking countless hours of dedication, practice, and study. people, regardless of gender, tend to follow the path of least resistance.
Where did the old mobile webpage go?! I don't like change!!!
Let's be real, she's a bit weird and that's cool. There will be other weird women who play competitively, but I doubt women will ever make up more than 20% of the competitive Smash community. Scientifically women are generally less competitive than men,(hormones I think they say) and statistically women probably make up about 30% of the people who play Smash.(not 48% that study specifically mentioned farmville and candy crush) That's actually being generous. In my experience less than 10% of people I meet on For Glory have female miis(while there are about 20%-30% on miiverse) and even then they're probably not all female. If anywhere close to 10% of the competitive crowd are female it's probably about right already. I don't have anything to say about rude comments.
@khaosklub said: " if she wants to be accepted by the smash community, all she really need to do, is be attractive, whereas a man will only be accepted if he is good at the game"
I think that's absolute bull but I won't argue with you.
The fighting game community is still pretty toxic towards women but making friends (male and female) helps greatly. I adore fighting games but sometimes you want to reach through the Ethernet cable and strangle some people for their sexist comments.
What's the different on sex, age or gender? Does it bother that much that someone that's different then them could be better? BooHoo to that person, grow up to that person. It doesn't matter the sex, age or gender.
Profanity and "homies" used in a professional interview and she wants to be taken seriously. If she wants to be a role model she can stop talking like a junior high petulant child.
She was never told she had peaked but makes assumptions that is how other people felt which means she was paranoid and passes it off as fact.
She confirmed reaching her competitive peak to herself and everybody else by quitting. Semi retired = I could not cut it but if somebody calls I will be there.
Sounds like she never won a tournament which is probably why she was surprised she got invited to the invitational or either she could not believe she was invited because she is a woman which is her own sexism paranoia showing.
30 seconds into her ted talk is a screen shot of the competitive smash community I see several woman in the picture then a few minutes later she shows a scene with nothing but men and asks where are the women? She lost all credibility within 3 minutes of her sexist diatribe.
Danica Patrick is not the right person to reference because her greatest accomplishment is being half naked in a godaddy commercial. If Danica wants to be taken seriously as a role model put some clothes on and stop objectifying herself.
The only thing this whole article proves is how sexist Lilian Chen views the world through her own eyes. Social inclusion is the agenda pushed in this article but Lilian socially excluded herself because of her narrow minded view of the world by quitting.
@JLPick Exactly.
@Dezzy I have a neutral name and avatar not only here but across every site where it is possible. I still get bullied and harassed by trolls a lot of the time the minute it becomes apparent I am a female. When people assume "Lobster" is a masculine name, I get left alone a lot more, I can tell you that.
@Captain_Gonru
No Danica got attention because of her performance in the Indy car circuit. It was a talented person switching from one side of a sport to the other. Think about a talented quarter back in college football making their debut at the NFL. She was doing nothing but wrecking every race in NASCAR because NASCAR is just different than Indy car racing. Rather than focusing on her talent and getting better at racing stock cars to retain sponsors, she took the short route and started objectifying herself in godaddy commercials. Now when you think about Danica all you can think is she just got attention because she is "hot" This did not occur because of society but because of Danica's own personal choice.
@DiscoGentleman "Could you not just show a little self restraint when making the first comment on an interview taking about the positive momentum of women in gaming and the sexism that hinders them?"
This was my thought too.
I like the approach she takes when it comes to sexism. It's one of the 2 isms that can set social media on fire if used in almost any way (like the comments with the 8 NWC finalist the other day). You can be right for the wrong reason or wrong for the right reason. Either way It will hit a button with people who have facts and/or personal experiences with the matter.
The power of free will in a "free" country.
@DiscoGentleman You completely nailed that right on the head. Happy I wasn't the only one to see that
First comment on the thread: "she's kinda hot." smh...
@NorthLightSuplx With all due respect, I feel like you entered this article with a certain mindset. Especially if your first attack on the interview is about her vernacular. While this is a professional site, no one here wears suits and ties. She speaks in the vernacular of the community she's in. You didn't hear her speaking that way in the TED Talk—if anything, that's professionalism: knowing your audience.
But to your main point: yes, she pushed away because of how hurt she felt by the community—explained in the TED Talk. She wants others to not be reclusive like she used to be. As someone who has been immersed in a (while light-hearted and not intendingly-offensive) racist community towards Asians for five years, I can fully understand where she comes from. It's easy to become the thing you hate when you are immersed in such a community—especially when you enjoy many aspects of said group. And while this is just my perspective and, in the article's case, her perspective, I believe we have snapshots of reliability for the rest of the world. If you disagree, that's your prerogative, but I can attest and totally relate to what Lillian has undergone—just in a different topic of abuse.
Finally a candid interview from someone who isn't trying to push an agenda for Patreon support.
The FGC has some of the biggest problems related to sexism and stereotyping too but what I love about it is that at the end of the day skill trumps trash talk. The winner is the undisputed champ no matter what race or gender they are because it is an earned victory as opposed to something given to you.
@97alexk She practiced a lot, and she integrated with the Smash community, like anyone else.
@khaosklub I must have always had low testosterone levels, because I hate any kind of competition.
Smash is not FGC. Gonna make that very clear right now.
I don't get all the hostility here. This isn't some Anita Sarkeesian talking about how evil and sexist the Smash community is, it's a professional female Smash player talking about some of the difficulties associated with women integrating into a primarily male-dominated scene.
@Ralizah It's mostly because the FGC is already crazy inclusive (and Smash is declared as NOT FGC.) It's only recently that people were calling it sexist and many other things because the way that people act and the lingo and the pop-offs. Some of the stuff that they accuse the entire FGC of is pretty much exclusively from the Smash community.
The entire ShinBlade incident is more or less an example of what I'm referring to.
I've accepted girls being good at video games even when there where barely any around (early NES days) Fact is, there are just add many woman gamers as men, and I welcome it! I talked to a girl at ebgames that said she gets alot of jerk guys not wanting to deal with her just because they think woman know nothing about gaming and can't compare to guys, and I told her not to be mad at them because they're just anti social nerds with no lives lol
@Ralizah Some people have come into this article with a bias/mindset. That always makes things difficult.
@AugustusOxy I take it the professional troll is here? Great job acting like a 5-year-old, has it occurred to you nobody's taking you seriously? I guess it's easier to cynically lash out with no constructive criticism than read. Can't imagine how pitiful that basement looks like.
@Ralizah That's acting we're all rational people. #GamerGate != rational people, though I'm sure you already know. About as crackpot as any neo feminist these days. U stopped trying to get through to them long ago. And if this was 8chan and we didn't have moderation standards, he'd be saying nastier stuff too. If you haven't already, take him with a grain of salt.
Stuff like "OMG a woman good at video games? She must be doing something to get this far, wink wink nudge nudge." makes me so sad. >_<
@AyeHaley At least you can feel good about this: you're not one of them. Their mindsets will all be in the grave along with them someday, as few will come out of it, and just as few will carry it on. They won't be missed. I've had my arse handed to me on a silver platter by girls in Smash Bros, and I had the mental kahunas to accept it without having to come up with some crazy conspiracy theory to give me peace of mind.
Aaaand it's gone. Did Augustus delete his comment himself to make him look less stupid or did the moderators do it? Probably the latter.
@Haiassai
Seems to me that you are the one with a bias because you are the one eager to drink her kool-aid. I mean what is her story here? She got a few insults thrown at her by some school aged people on the internet. OK who hasn't had to deal with that? It is life... move on and quit trying to get some attention. What does she want? Everybody to bow down at her feet? She is a delusional paranoid sexist quitter with an ego. Don't believe me just read the article. She thinks people were gathered around her while playing because she was "one of the few woman in the room" Perhaps it was because it was somebody there playing that was just new to the scene and performing well against already established competition. She needs to gain some thick skin.
@DiscoGentleman
It is truth serum and Brewster from "The Roost" in Animal Crossing for 200 bells.
The predominant voice in gaming culture (and society in general)—that of straight white males—is responsible for constructing gamer identity. They can do this because even though there are more women than ever playing games, there are only 11-12% females in the gaming industry. Therefore, many game journalists, developers, executives, and marketers (predominantly male) can perpetuate gender inequalities to ensure that they maintain power in the gendered cultural hierarchy of video games. This is the unfortunate truth of inequality today, and it leaks into many communities like the Smash competitive scene. I wish it didn't have to take incredibly talented and scholarly women like Lilian Chen to open people's eyes, but I'm happy to see an interview like this on this site and a lot of encouraging comments, barring the classic hypersexualization "hotness" comment.
@NorthLightSuplx I'm sorry that that's your philosophy of life. While I thought you had an argument during your first comment, it's clear that we view life rather differently.
@khaosklub
"a man who works a dead end entry level job, stays in his room all day playing video games and collecting amiibo is generally considered a loser by society, while men who are accomplished and stay in their room all day playing video games and collecting amiibo are considered winners."
No.
Both of those guys are losers. Don't fool yourself.
@NorthLightSuplx I like the way she talks. She plays video games, she doesn't work in an office. Having fun with an interview is better than trying too hard to be "professional". Taking things seriously is lame anyway, but I'd say that applies to "sexism" too. So, I kind of agree. If she wants to be taken seriously she shouldn't talk like that but she shouldn't try too hard to be taken seriously anyway.
Is there some context I'm missing to this? It seemed like the interviewer was trying to push this as a big issue with sexism and video games, was this the focus of the mentioned TED talk?
@Fazzie_Bear
Could also be excess estrogen, or maybe traumatizing losses early in life?
@HollywoodHogan
And what makes them losers? They are both doing what makes them happy, not directly hurting anyone, and one has a good and consistent income stream.
@WreckItRyan The blame lies solely on marketing. The reason why gaming is ultimately a male dominant hobby is because males during the 80's and 90's usually are the ones who are drawn to the hobby itself thus establishing the demographic. It's all about the numbers given to them to make it a lucrative investment. Blaming the white man for the inequality in this community is hogwash. If people want to attract more women, gear the marketing enough for them and the remarks of ill-gotten folk would fade into the background.
If women are objectified in the gaming community, then meek and kissless virgins of the community are labeled by the same people like @hYdeks to be anti-social when they are more likely having anxiety or avoidant personality disorders.
In any rate both sides of this debate are being irrational. The moment you give anyone labels is the moment you turned into something you hate.
@Fee
then don't argue, enlighten. my statements are simply rationalizations of observations of my own point of view, the more points of view, the more accurate the big picture becomes
@khaosklub
someone who buys plastic dolls and wastes every free moment of their lives locked in a bedroom playing video games is a loser. They are not "living" life, they are wasting it.
And no one who is considered "accomplished" by society spends all their time in a room playing videogames either.
@Dezzy that sir, would be an awesome experiment... Not sure if we would get any trolls/bullies/a-holes.... But would be a great experiment nonetheless
@Vincent294 to be honest... AugustusOxy is always up in here, Trollin' some way or other his posts get edited (unless he uses 5-year-old slang in his daily life) or, in this case, pulled?
Lilian Chen/MilkTea has my utmost respect. I'm glad she participated in the smash invitational or I never would have discovered such a strong female figure in gaming.
Jeez, this really shows the good and bad side of the community.
Honestly? Anybody who refuses to acknowledge that there is unfair, categorized treatment in eSports is just covering their ears. Just because it's "always been one way" doesn't make any sort of negative behavior right.
Also, nobody is saying men don't ever receive unfair treatment. Don't try to counter an issue by using another issue, that's a logical fallacy. They're both issues that need to be resolved at the end of the day.
All this crying about Milktea calling herself a victim is laughably whiny. Not once in the article did she advocate special treatment or drastic changes to "upset the balance" between genders. Matter of fact, she advocates for individuals to challenge preconceived notions of gamers of any gender. Treating any individual any differently or with animosity just because of their gender, is sexist. Milktea's not asking for preferential treatment, just for decency. She's much more down-to-Earth than Anita Sarkeesian and would be a better advocate/spokeswoman for women than her. Anita, on the other hand, has been playing victim ever since the 4Chan lepers decided she was worth the trouble. I can't believe people are still whining about her when any real gamer, male and female alike, would know just how ignorant she is within the first five minutes of her videos.
@HollywoodHogan
and what is living life? what qualifies life as not being wasted?
what should one waste their money on? lavish estates? nice cars? Invest for the sake of making more money?
and someone accomplished can. it's simple, they created something of value that continually generates money for them since they patented it. essentially, early retirement, or they run a successful let's play channel. this would afford them to stay in their room playing video games all day, and they'd be highly successful, and probably much happier than people "living" life, and perhaps healthier depending on the games they play
Dang! I'm out of popcorn.
@khaosklub
'Living life' would be getting out and having new experiences, traveling, meeting new people, socializing, hiking up a beautiful mountain, making art, doing something to improve the lives of others, etc.
The person you are describing, some mysteriously rich individual who stays in their room all day playing games, is the epitome of a colossal loser.
I really hope you aspire to be something better than that.
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