Toki Tori 2 was one of the Wii U eShop's first big exclusives, a puzzle platformer which built on the previous two games - one on Game Boy Color and the other on WiiWare - to offer one of the console's first big download releases.
However, Two Tribes Collin van Ginkel has revealed that sales have been underwhelming, and he thinks he knows why - the game tried too hard to appeal to as large an audience as possible and lost sight of what made the original concept so compelling.
Speaking to Eurogamer at GDC, van Ginkel admitted that if he had been a consumer, he probably would have ignored Toki Tori 2 - despite the fact that it's possibly the company's best offering so far:
I don't think I would have bought Toki Tori 2 if I was a consumer. That doesn't mean I don't think it's a good game. I think we did a really great job. But it's not something I would have bought myself. We were super passionate about making it into a really good game. It is a good game and it's the best game I think we've released so far.
So why does he take such a dim view? Because Two Tribes lost focus:
I think we were trying to please everybody. We were trying to make a game that didn't leave anybody out.
Two Tribes isn't in a position to disclose solid sales figures, but it can reveal that Toki Tori 2 has sold more copies on Steam than on the Wii U eShop - but only due to discounts. If you're looking at full-price sales, the Wii U wins. As a result, the amount of revenue generated by the game is pretty much even across the two platforms.
Fellow Two Tribes' co-founder Martijn Reuvers explains the difference between the two stores:
We've been on Steam since 2010 and back then for us it was a very, very interesting platform. And it still is, but it's way more crowded now and it's very difficult to make any money on. There are more 'snack games' that instantly grab you. And if it doesn't, then you just move on because there are so many games out there.
The lack of competition on Wii U is a positive, but van Ginkel is saddened that more systems aren't being sold:
It's easier to get placement in the [Wii U] eShop, because there's not like 200 games also having their sale at that time. It's a shame more people aren't buying Wii Us, because that would make it even better. But I guess that would mean that more games would be coming to the Wii U.
The commercial failure of Toki Tori 2 led to some serious financial problems for Two Tribes, and the company was forced to restructure dramatically. Its next project is Rive, a shooter which the team is making for itself, rather than its customers - as van Ginkel explains:
We tried to make everybody happy [with Toki Tor 2]. And now we're just making ourselves happy, so we thought 'what would we like to play?' What would we like to make?' And we liked 90s shooters and platformers, so we went back to that.
Reuvers adds to this, stating that the team has learned from past mistakes and is applying this knowledge to its future projects:
With this game we tried to appeal to hardcore gamers. Shooter fans and not everybody. This is what we should do now. Not try to please everyone, but pick a target and have some focus.
[source eurogamer.net]
Comments 51
Toki Tori 2 is a brilliant game well worth anyones time. I bought it at a premium price but would never regret that as there's a lot of quality and content.
I think it's a shame we probably will never see toki tori again. A straight up sequel to 2, with that quality, is a game I will buy at that same price.
I guess I'm a huge minority.
I bought both Toki Tori in a sale. So far I've only played the first, and it's a good little game, if slightly 'Amiga 500'. I've not found any eshop download a must buy now experience, but if you see them up for sale, their nice to have to fill in then gaps between the big titles.
And there is some big cracks to fill in generation 8....
I won't lie. I haven't bought it for Wii U...yet. I did buy it on Steam at a major discount so I feel like I should support it on Wii U because it really is a fun little game.
It's a shame that Two Tribes is having trouble because they do have some brilliant minds there.
It's a decent game. I feel like it's about as good as Mighty Switch Force, albeit a bit longer and more of a different genre. I bought it on sale for like $6 or something.
I feel like the game could have benefited from not having puzzles almost everywhere you go.
I like the visuals, soundtrack, and it's a decent game, but Toki Tori and EDGE were far more worth my time, and I only paid $4 for both of those, which isn't even as much money as this game.
Rive looks really cool, I hope it does a lot better in sales.
The level design in Toki Tori 2 is so clever. It's like nothing else I've seen in how it takes a simple premise, and simple controls, and creates puzzles of ever increasing complexity and creativity. It really makes you think deeply about the interactions between game objects.
What is this shenanigans!
Toki tori 2 was and is awesome!
Classic Amiga 500 puzzler all the way!
I got Toki Tori 2 day one, got stuck once the non linear part of the game started (at the giant crystal), and never picked it up again until 2+ came out seven months later. At that point, I had completely forgotten where I was supposed to go and I haven't touch it since. I doubt that's an uncommon occurrence.
Considering complicated the overworld map is, being about to instantly go to any visited place/doorway would have cut down significantly on frustration and tedium. Having an actual level map instead of a line representing the length of the level would have been good too. A line works in something NSMB because you're almost exclusively going left to right, but it's useless and confusing if the level has a significant amount of vertical space and back and forth movement.
Honestly, I don't think it was content that made TT2 fail. Two Tribes poorly spent the money they had. It wasn't going to be a Wii U game originally, Steam platforms and iOS only, so that would have increased development costs. The iOS version was dropped causing other platforms to soak up those costs. It was also a mistake to work on the level editor at all if sales were poor.
Pleasing everybody? The game is hard and complex, the level progression is confusing and the map is not the best. So I have no idea what he means.
It is like saying Dark Souls or Monster Hunter do not leave anybody out either.
Toki Tori 2 is a brilliant game and is one of the most under appreciated gems on Wii U. It's cuteness belies its puzzles and designs. I bought it in an eShop sale, had no idea what it was or to expect but it's amazing. It's not for everyone because you need a brain. I then bought Toki Tori, another brilliant game. I have huge respect for Two Tribes and will be keeping an eye on Rive.
I enjoyed Toki Tori 2, but never finished it. I'm really looking forward to Rive as it looks right up my alley.
But this is why it's sometimes important to ignore customers or what the audience wants or may want. Even Reggie said something smart on this once: 100,000 signatures on a petition doesn't mean 100,000 sales. I think, even if you fail, the best thing to do is make what you personally want to make, because even if it didn't work out, you at least made something you wanted.
Plus, then you're more likely to put that extra bit of effort into the game.
For instance, if Nintendo just listened to fans, they never would've made Metroid Prime--and that's one of the best games they've ever published.
I don't like Toki Tori 2. At all. And that's a shame, because the first one was great. And Rush (another Two Tribes game) is also great. And Rive looks like a blast, so here's hoping they release something great again.
At least he is being honest!
TT2 was absolutely brilliant! I remember sitting at work behind my computer, blankly staring out the window playing thru the puzzles in my head, excited to get home and further my progress. It was also the first game that made miiverse fun for me due to player camaraderie and developer interaction.
I really liked TT2 and don't regret buying it when it first came out.
That said, RIVE does look pretty great.
Put TT in smash....his only move is whistling and looking adorable. Then make an Amiibo out of it:
Toki Tori Amiibo - Ebay exclusive - sold out
$1,000,000
Buy it now
Free shipping
I did buy it on Wii U when it was on sale but as of yet I still haven't played it due to Monster Hunter being such a time hog. Definitely want to though.
Toki Tori 2 remains a fantastic game - probably one of the Top 10 for Wii U released so far, and that's pretty impressive because it's going against quite a few first-party, full retail games to make that list.
I enjoyed the first Toki Tori, but never got the second one purely out of a lack of time. If I wasn't an adult working fulltime with other responsibilities, I'm sure I would've picked it up.
But Rive? It's a shmup and looks amazing, so I'm getting it no mater how much time I don't have!
I got Toki Tori 2+ when it was on sale. I've enjoyed it but I haven't gotten round to finishing it.
Not sure if I'll get Rive as there are a lot of games I'm planning on buying.
I will be honest, I haven't bought the game just because of it artstyle, and now U feel like a butthole because we will probably never see another Toki Tori game because there was enough people buying it.
I very much liked the first Toki Tori, but no matter how much I try to enjoy TT2 I just can't seem to get into the game. It is an interesting game with an interesting concept, but if you expect it to be like the first game, as I did, you might get surprised how different this game is. It's not a bad game, just not what I expected. I am looking forward to see more games from them though.
Bought this at a discount and played it extensively for a week, I did complete it (I think...?) but I gave up trying to collect all the collectibles. I will probably dip into it again at some point. Fantastically designed game, the mileage you get from actions is marvelous.
Wow, even the smaller devs are struggling in the post-mobile marketplace...or these companies are just being unrealistic...or the distribution mediums are too crowded and constantly racing to the bottom.
Wasn't sure about it, bought it anyway. Only sat down with it once so far, put off by confusing map progression and a constant feeling that I was leaving a bunch of stuff behind. Nice to see that not only was the level-editor cancelled, but the creator himself admits he wasn't even making a game that interested him. Makes me feel real good about taking leaps of faith and supporting the little guys.
I'm somewhat interested in toki tori 2, since I like puzzle games, but that main character design looks very unappealing to me. I'm all for cuteness, but this character in particular doesn't grab me at all; and I just can't imagine getting into a game where I don't even like to look at the main character.
As far as more games from the developer, Rush and Edge have my attention. Very neat presentation, and simple but challenging gameplay. I'd like to see more like that, maybe on a grander scale or an interesting new package.
I purchased Tori Tori 2 because there were no games at the beginning of the Wii U cycle, and the game was hard. The puzzle takes quite some time to solve and if you get stuck in a puzzle, you may not be able to advance. I am still very confused by their map system.
I paid 15 dollars for this game.
That's the Nintendo way and they've been doing it for years. If you're a great game developer, chances are if you like it, others will like it. It's logic. If you aren't enthusiastic about something you're creating, nobody else will be either.
That honesty tho!
Goodbye TwoTribes. I bought all your Toki tori games. But if you don't have faith in your games, neither do I. Sorry to disappoint. Won't be buying any more of your games...
I love this mentality of just appeal to a core audience and not everyone.
I wish Sega would take it with Sonic and stop trying to reinvent him every three weeks.
Just make sonic adventure 3 and say to hell with the nay sayers. High speed platforming isn't for everyone.
@StarDust4Ever That's awfully harsh; more people should be as honest as this dev.
Besides, how are you getting "you don't have faith in your games" from "We were super passionate about making it into a really good game. It is a good game and it's the best game I think we've released so far." ?
I loved Toki tori original. It was a great puzzler. It reminded me of solmon's key and Lolo for some reason. I did buy that one cheap on wii u. I bought the second for a discount. I never finished it. I didn't like the puzzles and it said it was a Metroidvania. I don't think it was. That is why I was so disappointed, but it wasn't a bad game, just not my cup of tea. I wish Two Tribes the best. They are a great company. I am a fan.
I'll admit I don't find Toki Tori that appealing. From all the talk about the game, I'm pretty sure it plays really well. But there's just something about its presentation. If I only had more spare time... I can relate to the developer and how he describes trying to appeal to everyone and ending up alienating a majority. When I first saw Rive, I was impressed. And after seeing their latest trailer, I fully intend to purchase the game as soon as it's released. It looks great. This says a lot about targeting a specific market - it's much easier when the target market is based on your own personal tastes, and also much more fun to be creative. Obviously, there will be people who will not like the look or play style of Rive ("you can't please everyone"), but the gamers who do like the genre, will buy it in droves. Hopefully this will be a financial success for them.
@erv for fear of sounding stupid here, but is there any way you can backtrack to locales you've previously visited in the game? I felt like I was being forced through it, and if I ever wanted to go back to collect/pick up stuff I may have missed I found I couldn't do it with just the map.
I'm a fan of many two tribes games and loved the first toki tori but I just couldn't get going on number 2 despite my best efforts. I don't know what I was missing and I'll have another go soon but I've rarely got so little value for Monet from an e shop game. Could yet be amazing but I havnt found it accessible.....
He may be right in the sense that the game did get a bit anonymous, with the edges sanded down a bit far. My only actual beef with Toki Tori 2, though, is that the map is rather unhelpful and unclear when you start getting stuck halfway in.
I regret buying the game full price...played it for 1hr and that was it.
Oh noooos!! The game doesn't hold my hand and it requires me to think. It must be $h1t so.
Some people...sigh
There is a lot of clever game design in Toki Tori 2 and I enjoyed overcoming super confusing stuff, but it just started taking too long to get anywhere or even understand where to go next and eventually new games were simply more fun and interesting. I may return to it one day, though.
The "trying to please everybody" was probably about making another Toki Tori game in the first place, reaching a broad audience with the theme... plus, the level editor. Sometimes understanding that your heart isn't in it happens in hindsight, too.
Good for them for refocusing on something they really want to create, targeting a specific audience. I really hope it pays off for them.
Plus, Edge and Rush are very cool.
Rive looks wicked, maybe Two Tribes are making an appropriate step.
I've never played Toki Tori but I appreciate the devs honesty. I did however play Edge, and didn't enjoy it unfortunately. I wish them good luck with their next games though.
Yeah it really was a crappy little game... can't really recommend it to anyone.
At least it did appeal to me, a longtime puzzle adventure core gamer. With 25 years of experience in this genre is was blown away by Toki Tori 2's ingenious puzzles, outstanding design and wonderful audiovisuals. I paid 13,49€ on launch date and thought it was worth much more than that.
One of the indie highlights on Wii U and my number 1 favourite Wii U eShop game of 2013. After this I went to buy everything Two Tribes had to offer, and while all of their games are great, I still think Toki Tori 2 is much better than everything else they produced so far.
As for RIVE, I'm excited to see if they can pull off an action game as (so far) their strength is in quality puzzlers.
Awwww, that's a shame, "Toki Tori" needs more love. I really want to get it once I get a WiiU.
I got this game immediately upon release..unfortunately I can't speak in whistles and stomps.whatever message this game was going for,it was lost to its audience.. there is nothing appealing about a game that plays hard to get. Hopefully Rice is the success that catapults then back to green.that market isn't saturated on wiiu
What a stupid thing to say/admit to. I'll rememeber that they don't like their own games the next time I even think of buying their projects again.
Toki tori 2 was a complete mess. It was confusing as hell to find your way around. It should have been level based instead of this boring open world crapfest. The graphics were great though.
I got both games in bundles for about 20 cents each or so... at that price both were a great bang for the buck. IDK why anybody pays $20 or whatever they ask for any of these indie games when on PC or mobile they are free or under $1 within 1-3 months of release.
Toki Tori 2 is a fun game, but certainly not for everyone. I still have to continue the game though. I really appreciate that there really is no handholding. Everything you have to find out for yourself, there are some really clever puzzles. The game is full of mystery.
Man's got a point. I have zero interest in Toki Birdy Dude, but Rive looks right up my alley.
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