One Of Pokémon's Largest Fan Communities Bans Dynamaxing In Competitive Matches

That's the nature of Smogon. Funpolice.

I used to play on Pokémon Showdown, and still do from time to time, but I only play using the official vgc rules because Smogons rules are too restrictive and frankly annoying imo.

Question.
Is that Normal Pikachu in Gigantamax form ?
Not the Fat Pikachu with glowing tail ?

Makes logical sense. They’re using all of the Pokemon in their Meta. Could you imagine the terrifying power of Dynamaxed Landorous?

They’ll likely have a separate tier for it.

@Blizzia You’ve got it all wrong. Smogon bans certain things in order to make the meta more strategic and less chance based. That said, they have various tiers, so you can play the meta in many exciting ways with many different Pokemon. Dynamax will probably get its own tier (might even be combined with ubers). I think you should give the competitive community a fair assessment before jumping on hate trains.

I understand it being banned. It really boost the power of all moves and make strong moves even stronger. If you are playing 1vs1 and the opponent has a weakness against you and you dynamax and use a move there is almost no counterplay.

Smogon University - From this point on, nobody is allowed to use physical attacks. Only verbal attacks are allowed and no cussing. The winner is the first to make their enemies pokemon cry.

@-Juice- They have a million metas my friend. They don't use all the Pokémons in any specific meta.

Smogons bans are often a bit nonsensical or based on fearmongering rather than actually reviewing strategy. It's based on people with certain ratings using their own biases to vote. I used to be able to vote and have my vote count for more than other people's just because I used a lame fotm team to hit the top percentages. Does that mean I knew jack about the mons I was voting on? Not necessarily.

One thing I do wonder is whether they ONLY banned dynamaxing, or also gigantamaxing.

Gigantamaxing would be kinda like mega evolution in a sense and has no element of "randomness" as they say, to it. Only specific mons can Gigantamax, so they'd be the most likely ones to do so.

Being part of the competitive community, I'm not about to jump on a hate train. I'm also not about to defend Smogons nonsensical decisions.

@Blizzia I agree on that. Smogon have too much of an elitist attitude. I'm glad the VGC rules don't follow them. Looks like Competitive Pokemon Battles are split into another meta once again.

@KoekiieWoekiie Also some abilties are lifted when you Dynamax (Gorrilla Tactics and more,) and some moves like weight based moves won't have a good effect like Grass Knot and Body Press. You really have a good edge when you Dynamax/Gigantamax.
Also the low frequency of Gigantamax Pokemon, that are also version exclusive, with exclusive G-Max moves does not help this.

@Anti-Matter It is the normal Dynamax Pikachu. Not the special Pokemon Lets Go version.

Even the Pokemon Company knows Dynamaxing is a gimmick. Thats why it only lasts for 3 turns and can only be used in gym battles in story mode

Don't care much for Smogon, though they somehow seem to know the most basic things about how a meta works than GameFreak themselves do. "A Pokemon's been in every VGC for 7 years, should we do something about it?" "No, but keep Pokemon like Phonie banned. We wouldn't want an unbalanced meta with that kind of unstoppable force."

Fair enough, dynamaxing is stupid beyond all belief and not even as fun as Mega Evolutiona. Showdown will still have servers with dynamaxing allowed, it’s just the main meta banned it, which these gimmicks should be.

This is the story of how Smogon dies. With a row of applause.

Diverting this much from official sponsored tournament is the best way to stop existing cause ain't nobody got time to maintain multiple strategies for multiple metas.

I wish VGC would follow suit. Maxing is simply anathema to a good meta. There used to be an intricate set of balances in place. Predictions you had to make. Is that enemy scarfed? Who will they target? Should I hit the weaker, almost-dead mon this turn or should I expect them to use protect on it? Who are they going to aim for with fake out?

None of that matters now because pressing the dynamax button makes you immune to flinch and lets you hit through protect. You can kill 3/4 of a VGC team with one Max.

As fun as dynamaxing is for making useless pokemon viable, it makes sense why it is banned. Dynamaxing was not balanced for singles at all, but it works perfectly in doubles.

Smogon isn't dying. People who think this takes the fun out of it needs to spend an hour in anything goes. You'll see why things get banned.

@Kamalen Your opening line was the only reference I got in this entire thread. I am going somewhere else now.

It's banned cause unpredictable?
Sounds weird.. I really thought it would be banned for the opposite reason...
Sure it can be unpredictable when it will be used, but everything else is way too predictable and repetitive about it.
All Pkmn gain the same (strong) attack moves, one single barrier as a stat move and double HP.

No offense to Dynamaxing, presentation wise it's very fun and a true spectacle fitting the story, but it feels like gameplay wise the devs went with the bare minimun of the concept.

@Skid

I keep seeing people say it works better in doubles and I don't see it at all. I mentioned it before but stuff like fake out and protect are really only commonly used in doubles. Plus, vgc format limits you to 4 mons, meaning a max mon can destroy 75% of your team instead of "only" half.

Plus many max moves buff both allies in a double battle.

They're broken in both but I'd say they're far worse in doubles.

Well I won’t be playing by Smogon’s rules anytime soon. I don’t see Dynamax as any more unpredictable than any other move the opponent chooses to make. And both of us have access to Dynamax, the best counter to a Dynamax is shooting back with your own. If they limited it to only allow Gigantamax, fine, but I’ve been spending dozens of hours farming for good Gigantamax Pokémon and I’m not about to have my fun policed by the same type of group that ruined Smash for me for years. The entire point of playing something competitively is trying to make moves your opponent can’t predict or aren’t prepared for, and Dynamax is exactly that. It’s not like Mega Evolution which mostly wound up just making strong Pokémon stronger. The meta was worse because of it and I honestly hope they don’t return to mainline games (aside from remakes in which they’re story relevant).

Competitive Pokemon is an insane mind game, and to me, Dynamax just increases the complexity of the game (in a good way)

Can't say I'm too surprised. Have not had time for online matches myself, but am guessing dynamaxed sweepers are a problem.

@ALazyUsername128 not wrong, I've made it though most of the Battle Tower (doubles) just using a Dynamaxed Sir'fetched and whatever other Pokemon I feel like using, mostly a Swords Dance-using Dubwool or a Whimsicott

While I heavily disagree with the reasoning, I think this is definitely for the best. I absolutely love Dynamax/Gigantamax during raid battles, but in a more competitive setting it feels very out of place. Maybe because I see it as essentially a bare-bones version of Mega Evolution, but it feels like a very empty mechanic to me that doesn't make the competitive experience any more fun.

Understandable. Dynamax is just broken. Besides that, it's easier to just ban Dynamax instead of Pokemon that are incredible with it, like Darmanitan or pokemon that can boost easily by abusing Max Knuckle or Max Airstream.

Honestly, I'm much more interested about Smogon and it's different tiers than official VGC. A great decision.

Its a not necessarily a nuisance. I just never cared for many of the gimmicks and Dynamax is included. But outside of the Gym Battles, its optional and i choose to ignore it

Meh, dynamax is utterly boring, so that makes playing Smogon rules sound more fun at least... Just wish we could bring Megas back instead.

It's absolutely clear who in this thread has faced a d-max gyarados in singles vs. who hasn't. There is no strategy around this mechanic. Your "counterplay" is always "try to stall out as many turns as possible so they only end up killing 1 or 2 of your pokemon instead of 3", unless it's Gyarados or any hyper offensive mon. Then it's just "d-max your own pokemon and hope that they were stupid enough to do it while you had the type advantage, because there's no switching in to a +1 speed Gyarados in the rain".

Makes sense for the competitive community.

@Blizzia I do the same. I dont know why people downvote you for having an opinion. But at least know, that you are not alone.

Edit: I see is not only you, every person expressing a certain sympathy for VGC is getting downvoted, i guess i will be the next then.

if theres any pokemon fansite that needs to be wiped out with a C&D, it smoggon.
their worse then the hackers

Not surprised, Smogon is a very toxic community that really, REALLY does not like anything upsetting their status quo. Their reason breaks apart too easily into 'we can't handle it, ban it, ban it!'. Instead of adapting to anything new they just ban it.

Dynamaxing is something you have to use tactically and skillfully, can be countered if you know what you're doing (Smogon community kinda doesn't) and adds to the game as you can turn it around with the right Dynamax or lose it with a premature move. Much more fair than Mega's and more interesting than Z moves.

If you think it's unfair or cannot handle then you really shouldn't be playing competitive Pokemon. Or just go into Smogons echo chamber and feel safe.

If anyone disagreed with this ban all you had to do was make an account on smogon (free to do), make an account on showdown (free to do) and win about about 35 out of 40 played battles on the ladder and they could vote. The people decided this.

@Anti-Matter I think there's 2 levels of maxing with some of the Pokemon...not sure cause I got pretty bored after the second easy gym.

As someone who doesn't play by smogon rules, its actually very logical to ban dynamax.

I get 90% of NL users don't play competitive pokemon, and the ones that do probably only play VGC or battle spot singles, but there's a lot of problems with the dynamax mechanic that made it impossible to play the game on the showdown ladder.

One of the biggest problems was maxs moves causing secondary effects, so anything with access to max airstream, max knuckle, or both simply 1v6'd unless the opponent brought out a ditto... then the ditto 1v6'd.

For example: Gyarados would setup 1 dragon dance, then he would dynamax and use max geyser for rain, or max airstream for +1 speed.. or both. So he could potentially have +2 speed, +1 attack on his water moves, and due to moxie ability, +3 attack if he got 3 KOs... so there was a +4atk/+3 Speed in rain gyarados once the dynamax wore off, after already chunking half of the opponents team.. oh and don't think you can simply counter it, he got power whip this generation so rotom-wash still dies, and the 100% boost in health lets it live a hit from most pokemon even if they're 4x super effective. Now apply this same threat level to excadrill in sand, hawlucha with unburden and max knuckle, and the fact you can run a power house like dracovish, choice lock it, bring in something to wall the move its locked in, then dynamax and break out of the choice lock to use whatever move you wanted.. It wasn't limited to just 2 pokemon either to single them out;

-Gyarados
-Hawlucha
-Corviknight
-Excadrill
-G-darmanitan
-Durant
-Hydreigon
-Togekiss
-Ditto

were all abusers of the mechanic, and we don't even know what else would show up and break the game after half of them are banned.

Glad its gone in galar-ou

@Blizzia They banned both.

Also 86% of the voters all voted to ban dynamax. This isn't "fearmongering" anymore than everybody agreeing something is uncompetitive.

You probably would think banning metaknight in brawl is fearmongering if you disbelieve in majority of the bans at smogon. Or maybe you like it when Ditto, of all pokemon, has a 50% usage rate in OU just because its the only way for players to avoid getting 1v6'd by anything that can dynamax (btw, everything can).

If you read the offical statement, linked in the article, which you didn't:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dynamax-is-banned-from-ou-explanation-information.3657917/

You'd know smogon did this ban because it ruins competitive play and everyone agree so, and the same post even acknowledges that the integrity isn't as important if the game becomes unplayable due to it. The first paragraphs also mention none of you HAVE to play by smogon rules, but if you're playing competitive, on showdown, and want to have serious games with serious players, they have to put restrictions so you can't just bring your geomancy xerneas and hit rank 1.

Fans Cut Of Their Nose To Spite Their Face Shocker

The people always saying "Smogon is elitist." Sound like they are projecting. Smogons rules only apply to Smogon and yet people always whine when they don't even play Smogon.

Sounds like they're upset that Smogon doesn't play by their elitist wants and desires instead of Smogon just creating its own meta which is perfectly fine.

It always sounds like "Wah, Smogon won't do what I want them to do." Despite last I recall Smogon had a VGC playstyle, and other metas as well despite their competitive set ups.

Wow. All this says to me is "We don't want to take the time to learn about and strategize with this new mechanic, so we'll just ban it." The unpredictable nature of Dynamaxing goes both ways, so neither side is disadvantaged. You just have to plan for it as best you can, much like Mega Evolution and Z-Moves.

@Venus_Adept People downvote for disagreeing with opinions. It's quite simple and it so happens that the people getting downvoted are people who insult or speak on matters they don't seem to understand about smogon. Nothing to do with VGC.

Anyway I think this ban is needed for the competitive nature of Smogon but Gmax should be revisited as a separate mechanic. Dynamax is a fun mechanic but no place for the competitive singles environment.

@Shepdawg1 The problem with your argument is it over centralizes the battles (Megas at least traded off an item to gain stats/damage) and this was tested on their servers. That's how they realized it was ban worthy in their meta.

Smogon has changed over the years. But this is the final straw - as someone who swore by Smogon for Gen 4 and 5, they've gone seriously down hill since gen 6. Ban everything. Ban ban ban.

I'm done with them.

@Bobb They banned some megas from OU but not all because it was a concentrated mechanic and not one every pokemon can get

@Bobb No. The only Megas as someone else mentioned that were banned were mainly Ubers or ones that were so powerful they couldn't easily be stopped in singles.

Mega rayquaza for instance, because if they had legalized it, it would have been on every team imaginable. (Mega Mewtwos another obvious ban)

Most megas weren't banned due to the fact using a Mega costed an item on said Pokemon which could have been used for a set up boost/focus sash/etc. Most teams had one which slightly over centralized but they were not a free KO card in most instances. Unlike Dynamax Gyarados.

In regards to your second question: Not everybody was forced, but it was a decent option due to stat boosts. Usually a good wall breaker or set up on a team. (Mega Charizard for instance for sun teams)

However again, Megas were far more vulnerable because of a lack of items so if you ended up in a bad match up you were done with whatever Mega you had.

even Mega Mewtwo in Ubers faces a risk due to things like Mega Mawhile Sucker punch.

@Pokeblade101 Well, maybe i dont understand how to use the downvote button, but personally i dont downvote people for disagreeing with them, just in few ocassions when i think they are trolling or insulting or something like that. But if i have a different opinion i found more constructive and respectful just to reply them like i'm doing right now.

We have a lot of upset Smogonites here.

@-Juice- "Smog on vans certain things in order to make the meta more strategic and less chance based."

The battle system is already heavily luck-based as it is, why not ban all luck-based moves if that's what they're aiming for? The critics were right, Smogon is very illogical at times with their approach.

Some of Smogon is Toxic. I used to play every now and then, but the community absolutely HATES different ideas and things against the grain

They don't like anything that ruins their highly optimized strategies.

I understand banning things that are clearly problematic- obviously speed boost Blaziken and Mega Rayquaza are busted. But I gave up on Smogon back when they banned Dugtrio, a pokemon so blatantly not overpowered and only useful for a specific role that it came down more to them disliking its playstyle. Then they banned baton pass teams (in a ban with complex, specific rules no less which they previously said they were against), which again had plenty of counters and ways to play around, but went against their specific idea of how pokemon should be played. Smogon really irritates me. Dynamaxing doesn't really hurt or overcentralize the game balance since any pokemon can do it and it only lasts a limited time. It just goes against their specific idea of how the game should be played.

The most ironic thing is that dynamaxing provides an additional potential counter to Dugtrio's revenge killing and baton pass chains, and by extension revenge killing with trapping abilities or baton passing to a different pokemon could serve as ways to deal with dynamax. It would be much better to let the metagame evolve first before making snap decisions.

@Dog The point is to limit luck factors. In real life sports there are still luck factors but they still prohibit additional luck factors. Going "Well luck exists so why even try" is a defeatist and nonsensical position, and makes little sense.

Luck moves are not fully luck based like you believe. Most moves with a % chance, are based on simple math. Critical hits are one thing ( even then some moves and Pokemon can increase the chance of crits hitting or make them formulaic: Absol)

It's not that smogon isn't logical, it's that you are taking a conclusion to the extremes which is fallacious at best.

This would be your idea in a nut shell : "Luck exists so I guess skill in any endeavor in life is meaningless, no one can truly be skilled because of that luck!" Except that's not how it works at all.

@HeroponRiki You're being kind of disingenuous:

"Dynamaxing doesn't hurt or overcentralize the game."

Yes it does.. ditto used to revenge kill or revenge set-up on Dynamax Pokemon was overly used due to that primary purpose. They tested Dynamax on ladders for weeks as I recall if not months, and the meta became Dynamax Gyarados/choice Pokemon here, Ditto, with little variety past that.

Just because everything can Dynmax does not make them equal. That's like saying "Magikarp can Dynamax so it's equally as viable as Gyarados." No. Just no. Certain Pokemon were ridiculously powerful in that situation in comparison to others, which is why the ban was voted on.

Just because it lasts a limited amount of time, doesn't change it gives free KO oppertunities to upwards of at least 3 Pokemon. Especially with the likes of Gyarados. Let alone over 100 BP moves for 3 turns with no accuracy reduction, and usually added stat boosts. (water moves = Rainy Day set up making rain teams insane)

In regards to Dugtrio, are you referencing the Sand Arena Vs. Dugtrio vote. Which came down to the issue being Dugtrio and not sand arena which on many Pokemon did not create as many locks or lack of counter plays in the ladders?

Saying it was banned only due to a playstyle of locking down teams to set up easy kills and cheese most teams that didn't specifically have counters on hand for it is again dishonest.

Now whether I agree with all their bans, fair enough, I don't. That doesn't make them illogical or bad or rubbish or pretending it was done because they don't like it's playstyle.

This is the problem many of us have with those misrepresenting Smogon bans, try to not be dishonest about your claims for the bans. Saying something like dynamax didn't over centralize is at best lying.

They have more say on the evolution on the Meta than gamefreak does, espically if online 6 v 6 matches still have a 20 minute limit.

Not that it maters much because two years from now Game Freak will be saying "What's Dynamaxing? That's not the current gameplay gimmick." like they are now with megas and z-moves.

@Passive_Mewtwo To be fair, I haven't played on showdown since the baton pass/Dugtrio bans, so I have no experience actually playing with them. But if Ditto transforming into dynamaxed pokemon or Gyarados specifically being overly good (I don't really understand this, does it get an OP gigantamax form or something?) are problems it makes more sense to suspect test those two pokemon, and not ban an entire mechanic. Back when Mega Evolutions were introduced, stuff like Mega Rayquaza and to a lesser extent Mega Kangaskhan were patently absurd, but they banned those pokemon, not the game mechanic itself. Dynamax has the same effect for all pokemon aside from a few gigantamax forms if I'm not mistaken- your example is actually kind of proving my point. Magikarp doesn't suddenly become good because it can dynamax; it doesn't upset the balance when it's something every pokemon can do. In edge cases like a broken Gigantamax form, you can ban that specific Gigantamax form.

Dynamax being powerful isn't a reason to ban it when it's a central mechanic. That's like banning super effective moves because they're too powerful. It's just part of the strategy when you want to drop that nuke and get those "free" kills. Which again, I haven't played in this meta but I very much doubt the kills are completely free. Your strategy for how to minimize the damage your opponent gets by using substitute/protect or switching into resistances or tanks is also part of the core game mechanics. It's different sure, previous pokemon games didn't require you to always have a plan ready if you suddenly need to stall for three turns, but it's not inherently bad.

Finally, as for Dugtrio being "OP" and not having counter-play... that's just flat out wrong. Items like Air Balloon or Shed Shell can be used for pokemon like Heatran that are especially vulnerable, you can use moves like baton pass (you know, if they hadn't banned that too) and U-turn, avoid using pokemon with low defense and speed that are weak to ground, or just accept the revenge kill and then gain initiative on your opponent the next turn when they have to switch out Dugtrio because it's weak as hell at everything except it's specific role. If, instead of banning all trapping abilities, they allowed them and let the meta evolve around them we could have had a very different and more interesting meta. It's very similar to Stealth Rock in Gen 4 where yes it's powerful but instead of banning it they let the meta evolve around setting up and dealing with entry hazards, and pokemon that were weak to stealth rock were just considered pokemon that couldn't keep up in the meta and ended up in lower tiers.

@Passive_Mewtwo This is something a lot of people don't talk about when comparing Megas to Dynamaxing/Gigantamaxing. In a lot of cases, using certian items would be just as viable of an option, and in other cases a more viable option, than using a Mega Evolution. There was some opportunity cost when deciding if a Pokemon should run as your team's mega.

There's no tangible opportunity cost for Dynamaxing. You are at a disadvantage if you don't use it at any point in a battle.

@Passive_Mewtwo I'm sure there's a certain degree to which we can respect your points. As a whole, Dynamax offers too many immunties (immunities to being forced out, weight-based moves, etc.) with a negligible drawback (which other members become ineligible to Dynamax after already Dynamaxing). I, personally, would be happiest if Gamefreak decided to further explore Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves- both mechanics offer a nice mixture of diversity while (generally) not being too "overpowered" or "overcentralizing". The Dynamax mechanic itself is reminiscent of (some) Final Smashes: a flashy "reversal", "power move", etc.

However, assuming an accusatory stance ("...you are taking...", "You're being...") towards other members doesn't exactly achieve anything, either. Such behavior has no place if you're trying to dissect others' arguments. It certainly doesn't help establish your credibility as a new member when one of your first posts- if not the first post- you made at 4:03 PM (5 minutes after creating your account at 3:58 PM today, according to your Profile page) describes your feelings towards anti-Smogon whiners. Ranting is pretty comparable to whining, and is equally unpleasant to read through.

Like others, you don't see harm behind thinking that "Smogon's rules affect Smogon players". However, it's crucial that you consider exactly how Smogon's decisions diffuse throughout more competitive communities than Smogon alone. There are virtually only two "flavors" of competitive Pokemon rulesets recognized by the vast majority of competitive Pokemon communities: Smogon's and VGC's. If the former's ruleset is acknowledged as a "standard" in this sense, its decisiouns should have a very solid and comprehensive reasoning behind every single one of their roles. If this can't be the case, and if other high-level or highly-functional players can identify "gaps" in Smogon's reasoning, then there is reason to challenge the rationale behind Smogon's decision-making processes. With this in mind, there is perfectly valid concern when Smogon adds new clauses that impact "standards" other competitive communities observe when a decision is already made about a core game mechanic (a first even for Smogon) under three weeks of the game's launch (NOTE: discoveries made by datamining doesn't count as an "early launch", either- those only give rise to "theorycrafting" without proper in-battle applications). Moreover, Smogon itself hasn't necessarily rescinded or adapted decisions they previously made in favor of obsolete mechanics or new strategies, which is supported by the refusal to implement "complex bans". Objectively, it's impossible for a community to defend its decisions as "absolute" or "airtight" if there is a lack of willingness to explore every single possible scenario, regardless of how much effort this requires. As a few examples:
-What if that Dynamaxed Gyarados was only at a Level 0 Dynamax Level with only 1.5x HP boost and NOT the full 2x boost when reaching Dynamax Level 10? I believe those on Smogon already voiced concern against candies so the game can remain "more accessible" (i.e., everything is considerably less bulky)- this applies just the same to Dynamax Candies and the overwhelming overall "bulk increase" they provide.
-What happens when Pokemon HOME features are rolled out and what if they allow for moves such as Toxic to become legal again? As far as the +1 (or +6, even) Dynamax Gyarados scenario, remember that Clefable with Unaware ("Unaware Wall") becomes legal again (which has a pure Fairy typing rather than Water/Ground typing like Quagsire, learns Toxic/ Thunder Wave, has reliable recovery in Soft-Boiled, and can even learn Counter as a response to Physical Max Moves).

These are two of numerous new possibilities that offer the prospect to level the Dynamax mechanic out in some capacity, or to allow otherwise-capable Pokemon to access tools they could use to circumvent what might otherwise be "Dynamax sweeps". Not noted also include the usage of simple status conditions or "gimmicks" like Sashed Malamar's Topsy-Turvy (which can also utilize Psychic Terrain and boost with Superpower). The Smogon Community's stigma towards "gimmicks" should have nothing to do with a strategy that achieves a specific, desirable purpose. In fact, it can be argued the existence of disposable "Hazard Setters" or "Hazard Removers" that offer most of their utility when using only one or two moves for the entire match is an extension of a "gimmick that works".

Repeating the same points already discussed in length on Smogon's community forums is valid, but not to the point of only considering said points and nothing else. The generation as a whole is quite literally at its infancy, yet it's saddens me that there are those who project their laddering experience in a still-limited, pre-HOME environment inaccurately as a "comprehensive" process spanning a "few months" of real-world passage- this is also fallacious, and I would encourage everyone to withhold judgment until there is truly more information available. I put this post out there with hopes that you- and others with similar impulses to "police" other members here on a Nintendo-centric news site not specifically dedicated to any single "series" or "gaming demographic"- to consider these points more carefully.

@HeroponRiki The problem with banning those two, is that it doesn't benefit anything to ban Gyarados. all it will do is lead to the next Dynamax 3TKO Pokemon. TTar, Dragons, Legandaries (who aren't Ubers) and then more.

"Back when Mega Evolutions were introduced, stuff like Mega Rayquaza and to a lesser extent Mega Kangaskhan were patently absurd, but they banned those pokemon, not the game mechanic itself. Dynamax has the same effect for all pokemon aside from a few gigantamax forms if I'm not mistaken- your example is actually kind of proving my point. Magikarp doesn't suddenly become good because it can dynamax; it doesn't upset the balance when it's something every pokemon can do. In edge cases like a broken Gigantamax form, you can ban that specific Gigantamax form."

That's a false equivalency though. Most megas were not amazingly beyond powerful. Rayquaza was already banned before Megas came into the fray, and Kangas was the exception. Most Pokemon when dynamaxing gain 100+ BP for three turns with additional +1 buffs, and extra effects. (Sunny day, rainy Day, Sandstorm, etc.) at no expense, they can even run an additional item.

If Megas had let you run say any Pokemon with an additional Life Orb, or Choice Band, or Choice Scarf, they would have been banned. Period. That was the trade off though, not letting them have an item. Which means 1TKO's made megas vulnerable. The reason why Kangas was banned because it would only be used in OU due to megas and its megas hit through subs and other options. It was broken. Plainly put.

"Dynamax being powerful isn't a reason to ban it when it's a central mechanic."

It's beyond powerful. It's a lliteral weather setter, +1 boost (up to +3 or a nerf to enemies depending or some other effect) 100+ Bo move with no chance of missing. Anything that has decent ATK/SPATK will kill you using Dynamax and tank hits due to the HP increase. Just because it's a central mechanic doesn't make it balanced. Especially when it makes most matches play out the same way. Because most smart players will either clean house late game with it (TTar/Dragons/Gyarados/etc.) or sweep from the start to wipe out any potential counters or Pokemon that may survive the Dynamax, and the fact they get an additional item means they have extra benefits.

"t's different sure, previous pokemon games didn't require you to always have a plan ready if you suddenly need to stall for three turns, but it's not inherently bad."

The problem is we lost a lot of walls, and forcing every team to run the same two walls to counter Dynamax makes it over centralizing and busted in team making. Imagine if every team had to run Blissey because of SPATK dominance in some meta game. It doesn't but imagine if it did, would it be a good meta to force everyone to run the same thing? No.

"minimize the damage your opponent gets by using substitute/protect or switching into resistances or tanks is also part of the core game mechanics. It's different sure, previous pokemon games didn't require you to always have a plan ready if you suddenly need to stall for three turns, but it's not inherently bad."

And if they wait until late game to use it which they can until your protect oriented team members are dead, what then? Substitute users, and others? that's a cheesy sweep with little counter play.

"Finally, as for Dugtrio being "OP" and not having counter-play... that's just flat out wrong. Items like Air Balloon or Shed Shell can be used for pokemon like Heatran that are especially vulnerable, you can use moves like baton pass (you know, if they hadn't banned that too) and U-turn, avoid using pokemon with low defense and speed that are weak to ground, or just accept the revenge kill and then gain initiative on your opponent the next turn when they have to switch out Dugtrio because it's weak as hell at everything except it's specific role. If, instead of banning all trapping abilities, they allowed them and let the meta evolve around them we could have had a very different and more interesting meta. It's very similar to Stealth Rock in Gen 4 where yes it's powerful but instead of banning it they let the meta evolve around setting up and dealing with entry hazards, and pokemon that were weak to stealth rock were just considered pokemon that couldn't keep up in the meta and ended up in lower tiers."

Let's start with what I actually said, little counter play. Some counter play doesn't change that. Shedshell is also an option but should a Pokemon give up its item for ONE threat? No. This would be like saying Mega Kangas can be countered by throwing up Toxistall options or Toxipex sets, or even F.E.A.R. rattata. Just because it can counter doesn't make it a good viable option.

By the by Mewtwo loses to Fear, should Mewtwo be in OU? It loses to Sucker Punch mawhile (without Mega), it loses to Pursuit, Switch in Shadow Ball, and has a hard time swapping in due to fragility. those are counters. should Mewtwo not be banned?

The point on dugtrio when it ran rampant, I remember it, it was starting to rise in huge usage, similar to the issue with Ditto and Gyarados on Dynamax. Without Dynamax those Pokemon are decently used, OU capable, but not to the point where almost 100% of teams require them or counters to them or flat out lose. (Gimmicks are not a sound option, nor are one time counters because if it dies you lose.)

That's how things are banned. Not because there are 80 simple work arounds to effect a monster, and heck even with work arounds (Mewtwo as explained) it's still broken due to testing it.

In regards to SR, I've always felt SR was one of the more questionable over centralizing elements but as Rapid Spin became more abundant and for a period of time gained advantages (such as the recent speed boost chance) I can slightly understand it staying it, although it hinders many types of Pokemon.

Dynamax doesn't just hinder many types of Pokemon it creates a threat from any specific Pokemon whether you have a viable counter or not. Thank goddness Garchomp didn't survive the cut or it'd be near impossible not to run a team dedicated solely to it.

@superzman300 "after already Dynamaxing). I, personally, would be happiest if Gamefreak decided to further explore Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves- both mechanics offer a nice mixture of diversity while (generally) not being too "overpowered" or "overcentralizing". The Dynamax mechanic itself is reminiscent of (some) Final Smashes: a flashy "reversal", "power move", etc."

I don't disagree.

"However, assuming an accusatory stance ("...you are taking...", "You're being...") towards other members doesn't exactly achieve anything, either. Such behavior has no place if you're trying to dissect others' arguments. It certainly doesn't help establish your credibility as a new member when one of your first posts- if not the first post- you made at 4:03 PM (5 minutes after creating your account at 3:58 PM today, according to your Profile page) describes your feelings towards anti-Smogon whiners. Ranting is pretty comparable to whining, and is equally unpleasant to read throu"

Countering or rebuttaling a post is not ranting. Is your post a rant by how long it is? Of course not. Merely pointing out basis on how things work is not a rant, no more than a scientist explaining any element of a science to the lesser informed. I don't mind if people don't like smogon or it's decisions. I do not like people making assumptions of Smogon judges or players as a whole. That's not merely "whining" that's slanderous at best, and presumptious .

"Like others, you don't see harm behind thinking that "Smogon's rules affect Smogon players". However, it's crucial that you consider exactly how Smogon's decisions diffuse throughout more competitive communities than Smogon alone. There are virtually only two "flavors" of competitive Pokemon rulesets recognized by the vast majority of competitive Pokemon communities: Smogon's and VGC's."

No one is stopping people who dislike Smogons rule set from creating their own. If their rule set is so well liked I'm sure many will join their base as well, correct? Or maybe their rule set won't garner interest, but I find it odd those who hate Smogon never propose their own set ups. Free play is even a thing on Smogon.

" If the former's ruleset is acknowledged as a "standard" in this sense, its decisiouns should have a very solid and comprehensive reasoning behind every single one of their roles. If this can't be the case, and if other high-level or highly-functional players can identify "gaps" in Smogon's reasoning, then there is reason to challenge the rationale behind Smogon's decision-making processes. "

No one said they can't challenge the decision, even I do not agree with every Smogon decision, but there is a difference between saying I think they are wrong on a decision (see SR) and literally claiming they are banning it because they suck or don't test the game. That's fallacious and unreasonable an assertion.

"With this in mind, there is perfectly valid concern when Smogon adds new clauses that impact "standards" other competitive communities observe when a decision is already made about a core game mechanic (a first even for Smogon) under three weeks of the game's launch (NOTE: discoveries made by datamining doesn't count as an "early launch", either- those only give rise to "theorycrafting" without proper in-battle applications). Moreover, Smogon itself hasn't necessarily rescinded or adapted decisions they previously made in favor of obsolete mechanics or new strategies, which is supported by the refusal to implement "complex bans". Objectively, it's impossible for a community to defend its decisions as "absolute" or "airtight" if there is a lack of willingness to explore every single possible scenario, regardless of how much effort this requires. As a few examples:"

Again, if someone wants to start their own rule list they are perfectly capable of doing so, but only if people find their changes to be beneficial. If not, then maybe it is their assertions that are the problem and not Smogons. That doesn't make Smogon perfect, but it sounds pretty elitist to suggest they know better than a group that isn't one single entity and is voted on with its decisions, good or bad. (subjectively.)

Just saying they aren't willing to explore options is very stubborn a position. How long must they test? A month, a year, ten years? Anyone can push or make the stipulation how long they should test, but they don't agree, and that's their decision. If someone has such a problem

"-What if that Dynamaxed Gyarados was only at a Level 0 Dynamax Level with only 1.5x HP boost and NOT the full 2x boost when reaching Dynamax Level 10? I believe those on Smogon already voiced concern against candies so the game can remain "more accessible" (i.e., everything is considerably less bulky)- this applies just the same to Dynamax Candies and the overwhelming overall "bulk increase" they provide."

The bulk is not the only issue with Dynamax. If it were they wouldn't be that big of an issue. Gyarados no longer has access to Megas, and although bulky isn't the end all be all anymore. DD is a threat, but there are answers for non dynamax Gyarados.

"-What happens when Pokemon HOME features are rolled out and what if they allow for moves such as Toxic to become legal again? As far as the +1 (or +6, even) Dynamax Gyarados scenario, remember that Clefable with Unaware ("Unaware Wall") becomes legal again (which has a pure Fairy typing rather than Water/Ground typing like Quagsire, learns Toxic/ Thunder Wave, has reliable recovery in Soft-Boiled, and can even learn Counter as a response to Physical Max Moves)."

Should every team have to run Clefable to counter Gyarados or any other specific Dynamax threat? Is that not the concept of over centralization?

"These are two of numerous new possibilities that offer the prospect to level the Dynamax mechanic out in some capacity, or to allow otherwise-capable Pokemon to access tools they could use to circumvent what might otherwise be "Dynamax sweeps". Not noted also include the usage of simple status conditions or "gimmicks" like Sashed Malamar's Topsy-Turvy (which can also utilize Psychic Terrain and boost with Superpower). The Smogon Community's stigma towards "gimmicks" should have nothing to do with a strategy that achieves a specific, desirable purpose. In fact, it can be argued the existence of disposable "Hazard Setters" or "Hazard Removers" that offer most of their utility when using only one or two moves for the entire match is an extension of a "gimmick that works"."

Gimmicks are bad for two major reasons. 1. If the gimmick counter or setter or what have you dies. The gimmick loses. See Baton Pass. If the stat passer or receiving Pokemon dies, the team falls apart quickly.

2. Gimmicks often fail to account for standard threats and rely on one major threat to stop or take out. Which defeats the purpose of a stable or consistent competitive team.

This is why they are looked down upon. This doesn't mean you can't win or use gimmicks, but if your answer to a threat is one gimmick pushed on all teams then there is an issue with that suggestion.

You could stop many Choice Band/Scarf/Spec ubers with curse/disable/etc. If your only option to stop them is that very specific gimmick then if that user dies, you've now enabled that strat to not only dominate the meta but destroy it single handedly. Which is why such things are taken very seriously.

Imagine playing a fighting game, and the only answer to countering a high tier character is "use a random move no one would ever use or expect on this one specific character." It would be a laughing stock.

"Repeating the same points already discussed in length on Smogon's community forums is valid, but not to the point of only considering said points and nothing else. The generation as a whole is quite literally at its infancy, yet it's saddens me that there are those who project their laddering experience in a still-limited, pre-HOME environment inaccurately as a "comprehensive" process spanning a "few months" of real-world passage- this is also fallacious, and I would encourage everyone to withhold judgment until there is truly more information available. I put this post out there with hopes that you- and others with similar impulses to "police" other members here on a Nintendo-centric news site not specifically dedicated to any single "series" or "gaming demographic"- to consider these points more carefully."

I do consider them, and I consider it pretty silly to claim those against it are just knee jerk reacting or fear mongering or jumping the gun. If you believe in your cause so righteously nothing stops you from running your own meta, but if no one joins your meta long term, it may be your beliefs are the ones not at odds with reality or in favorability and not Smogons.

Don't take it as an insult merely a perception/perspective view on the situation.

Smogon existed because some wanted a more competitive experience outside of VGC or Nintendo tournaments, so people like minded came together to create a meta, what stops those complaining about Smogon?

My belief is they are either over reacting or wanting someone else to create their utopian fantasy of a meta, or lazy. Nothing is stopping them yet they'd rather throw shade at people in their own community, attack others for how they play (IE: Elitism) or just not attempt their beliefs on what and how it should be run. When they put up and or shut up, so will people like myself.

That's not ranting, that's answering a claim by rebuttaling it. Simply put. If someone doesn't want to partake in Smogon, no big deal. If someone doesn't like their meta, that's fine. I don't like some aspects myself. If someone thinks they can do better, then please show us your attempts, otherwise it's wind blowing out of a hallow tunnel called their mouth.

Edit : One more thing, what or when I created my account is irrelevant. that's an attempt at ad hominem to my arguments. Either my arguments have merit or they don't. Attempting to discredit me on such a concept is very narrow minded. Not saying you are doing this, but saying those who would attempt to do so should be careful. I'm not new to game forums or online forums, unless I just learned to play smogon in the last few seconds, the arguments should be directed at the merit of said points, and not a personal attack. Again, not saying you are saying this, just if it is intended this way it's very bad way to present a counter argument.

@Araquanid

Do you even know what fearmongering is mate xD And as I said, I've been there done that regarding showdown. You just need a specific rating to vote, and you don't need ANY knowledge regarding the subject. Banning every dynamax is stupid, and so is banning gigantamax because it is roughly the same as mega-evo, just for only 3 turns, and with more bulk.

I won't comment on metaknights ban since I don't follow SSB stuff.

You also can't get 1v6'd by anything that can dynamax without making colossal mistakes that pave the road for your loss already, so that point is moot. You also have your own dynamax.

It's also not about HAVING to play by smogon rules or not, so much as it is about their rules promoting stale and stagnant gameplay from the outset.

Couldn't care less about geomancy Xerneas since its ubers. Could just ban dynamaxing geomancy Xerneas, problem solved.

My issue isn't that they're banning SOME dynamaxes and SOME gigantamaxes in SOME tiers.

My issue is that it's a blanket ban because they can't be bothered to actually create a healthy meta around the mechanic.

There are plenty of dynamaxes that won't destroy the meta, and gigantamaxes are in my opinion completely fine due to the fact they you'll know roughly which mons can threaten with it, and the opponent will as well.

Seems utterly pointless. When you take to the actual gaming community you'll hear, "if it's in the game, it's a legitimate tactic" more than anything and while in some cases I highly disagree (Gears wallbouncing for instance... No skill and makes you look silly), removing a core feature from the game in this situation not only takes away from the unique nature, but shows this "pro" community isn't capable of adapting.

If over half voted to ban the feature, they simply should have just gone back to a previous title.

@-Juice- Actually Dynamax is only banned on the Galar only Metagame (The ladder that allows only pokemon that are in Sword/Shield).
Dyanamax is actually allowed for the ladder that includes all pokemon.
The issue is that this mechanic is incredibly imbalanced for singles matches and one mistake can easily mean that your entire team gets swept with little room for counterplay.

@Nintyfan Do you actually know or play smogon to be making such claims? Also Dynamax is just not being allowed for their own rules on their own site. Nothing else is affected. I do not get why is talking to smogon like it affects them