New Denuvo 'Switch Emulator Protection' Tech Launches, And Players Are Worried

Here we go again...
Prepare some popcorn.
(Candies if you bored with popcorn)

The website suggests just anti-emulation practices, which might not require a lot of performance. It's not like Denuvo in theory.

Emulator developers just needs to write more accurate Switch emulation code just to not trigger the anti-emulation protection.

Also what makes me laugh is also how easy it is to hack a Switch due to how bad the protection was from Nvidia (for once Nintendo is not to blame), if this protection is just using anti-emulation checks, then this does not prevent piracy for people who uses a hacked console so I don't really understand much...

If DRM weren’t a resource hog I wouldn’t care as a person that buys games legally has nothing to fear. Buuuut it usually is a resource hog and just more of how bad actors ruin things for everyone.

Thanks pirates for making Nintendo have to take these steps. Hope your cheap illegal tactics were worth it

@Fizza
Hotspot

Or the check up will be once every 24 hrs

Denuvo tend to get cracked relatively fast so this seems kinda pointless.

Sonic Frontiers will be getting this for the Switch version of the game.

hackers would just find a way to remove the code from the game so it runs

Considering Switch games are still topping charts, i think this is a over reaction. If upcoming games use this and they run like trash, your honestly better off emulating the game cause atleast most gaming PC can overcome resource hogs.

@Fizza It doesn't force online only. It only checks if the game is ran using an emulator and then blocks it.

I am happy that they finally are going to combat Switch game stealing/piracy. This is a good day. Every new Switch game should use it.

@RupeeClock Honestly I see a lot of people installing "Switch emulators" with roms on their Steam Decks. It's disgusting, and honestly understandable that they are going to fight back against it.

DRM is bad for customers and Denuvo is the worst of the DRM options to boot, known for tanking platform performance by over 15%. And the Switch already struggles with some games. Publishers please, don't use this. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/denuvo-drm-removed-from-upcoming-strategy-game-dev-blames-performance-impact/

@steventonysmith Nintendo hasn't taken any steps. This is a 3rd party solution that is being offered to developers. We don't even know if Nintendo will allow this, or use it themselves. A press release by Denuvo doesn't mean this will even ever get used.

I've seen the difference first hand on Steam games with Denuvo, and the same game when Denuvo is improved. Most times, random issues are resolved, and the game runs better. Maybe developers need to spend more time optimizing their games for Denuvo before release, or publishers need to tell developers about it before the 11th hour, but considering the already limited power of the Switch compared to PCs that struggle with Denuvo, I'm concerned for some Switch games going forward.

@Fizza that plus the fact that Denuvo type of DRM is often a trigger for people to crack the game just because people hate it that much.

On PC Denuvo is a big issue, mostly on systems with a weaker CPU (waves at the Switch) where it gives more often a performance hit, than on something with more horse power.

Most people that are against piracy don’t understand that DRM doesn’t prevent piracy and they forget how anti consumer it is, it only gives a bigger excuse to pirate something because people hate DRM.

I am against piracy but also heavily against DRM like Denuvo.

This is going to be like the cinemas showing Anti-Piracy commercials before the movie - it's only gonna affect the honest consumer, in this case with slow downs or similar things.

@Bomberman64 I always hated that.

Pirating movies and series doesn’t give any anti piracy warning videos before the content starts.

But the moment you buy legally a DVD, Blu-Ray or go to the cinema, you are forced to watch these unskippable “warnings” to not pirate.

BUT I JUST BOUGHT IT!

yeah…

Only exception to the rule are streaming services.

@steventonysmith piracy is not a problem because they would never buy the stuff anyway. Denuvo is a problem, because it inconveniences paying customers. A lot.

Games makers feeling like they need to spend more of the honest customers money on these types of things, great.

Oh boy, can't wait for Switch overheating news.
Because that's all this "solution" will do, consume resources to do useless checks if it is implemented poorly, which it will be.

I play handheld only and mostly offline. I'm new to this so I don't know if it will only affect certain games, or if it'll be across the board. But if this turns into online checks and worst performance I may just ditch the Switch for good.

The battle between entertainment companies and pirates is eternal, and generally ends up screwing over paying customers more than anyone else. Isn't Denuvo already at the point where it can be cracked almost immediately, anyway?

@MrHonest A couple years ago, I would have slammed the idea that Nintendo should put their games on PC, but with Nintendo's focus on affordability and innovation over performance in their systems, not to mention the fact that Xbox Game Studios and PlayStation Studios have ported what would otherwise be console exclusives to competing systems as well as PC, I've been more accepting of the idea that maybe it is high time Nintendo started porting their games to PC as well, giving players an option to run games like Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity and Fire Emblem: Three Houses on a system that can actually run them smoothly.
That said, this is probably a pipe dream, because Nintendo doesn't follow what other gaming companies are doing, most of the time to their own detriment. The only thing that gives me hope that we may see Nintendo games on PC is the fact that mobile games developed by Nintendo were once a pipe dream as well. In any case, I doubt they would put their entire library of Nintendo Switch exclusives on PC, and would probably focus on games that barely run on their system.

I despise pirates, but I hate needless resource hogs even more. Hopefully devs (and especially publishers) don’t opt for it.

Oh yikes, I never heard of this "service" and it does not sound at all encouraging. If Denuvo impacts performance (at all) and especially if it requires online checks to keep play enabled, I will certainly avoid any titles utilizing it.

I spend a great deal of money to BUY games to play with as few strings attached as possible - turn on, pick up a controller, and go, with offline play whenever I like. I would be far less willing to spend cash on compromised products.

Steam deck have this problem with games like rdr2. The game needs to be verified online before you can start playing. So, if you close the game, and you don’t have internet, you can’t continue to play. I hope this problems will not come to switch, especially to games like zelda or mario.

@okeribok That's a tremendously stupid argument. Sure, there are some people who will only play a game because they can do it for free, but there are plenty of others who will only pay for something they want if getting it for free isn't an option. Antipiracy software is a massive pain, but it wouldn't exist in the first place if piracy wasn't so common.

You can thank Linus Tech Tips for the surge in Switch emulation. They did an entire video on YouTube about a month ago. The comments under that video display so much vile hatred for Nintendo, yet his community feels entitled to steal from the one they hate.

If they add online checks, requiring the game to be constantly connecting to servers, or even connected all the time to servers, it means that if the server goes down, your game goes away, even if you own a physical copy.

DRM technologies doesn't hurt pirates, it hurts paying customers, it only gives you more reason to pirate your games, buying them means you don't own them anyway.

Those who pirate are going to do so anwyay.
"By protecting your game with our solution, you force all players to buy it."
Wonder if those who use this can get a refund once it's cracked day 1.

I know nintendo gets insane about piracy ever since the n64 peripheral back in the day, but is it really that much of a problem for them?

I mean, I don't have the numbers and can't possibly actually know, but I feel like they're far more aggressive about this than any other group.

How bad is piracy of nintendo products getting to warrant such a paranoid response?

If you don’t like this, you can thank the “before game’s official launch emulation” and the people and sites that feature and promote said emulation.

People think DRM denuvo is the same as Denuvo anti-emulation, might be wildly different code bases.

As long as it doesn't degrade the already mediocre performance I don't mind personally speaking. No one knows how it runs so please don't tell me it will or won't impact performance until more is known

DRM is horrible but if companies adopt this I couldn't even fault them. youtubers and websites love telling people "this game leaked just make sure you buy it legally before you download the rom" that's to save them from strikes. They know full well that the majority of who people get excited about that kind of news aren't legally obtaining their games. you might as well put the wandavision wink gif. in after they say it.

This is good news. It's so frustrating when a new game releases and pirates have been playing a leaked version of it online for a week beforehand. It brings to mind when NDS piracy was rampant way back in the day. Everyone I knew was using one of those R4 flash card things that you could just load up .nds files on.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need DRM protections at all, but pirates have made that reality untenable.

Denuvo already has an atrocious track record of forcing people to pirate games in order to make them playable again. People saying "just make the devs optimize for Denuvo" have absolutely no idea what makes Denuvo the cancer that it is. It cut into Sonic Mania and Resident Evil sales because of how the software acts like a virus, and holds the resources of machine it's running on hostage.

The switch can barely play its own games without this handicap.

On one level I hate DRM with a passion. But, when you have people advertising how much they emulate a company's games on website forums and openly pirate and use those games on competitors products... what can you really expect? It is kind of the devil of your own creation at this point.

But, the Switch is selling gangbusters and Nintendo 1st party games are topping the charts to a historic level. Not sure how much this is needed on the platform. But, if people just were more hush-hush with that kind of stuff publishers would feel less inclined to use anti-emulation software like this.

Disgusting

(that is all)

@CodyMKW totally, there have been cases of PC games where the pirated version runs better than the retail version for just this reason

Denuvo just wants to sell their product. It's not going to help anything and if developers fall for it will end up causing issues and be removed later on like what happens with PC games.

It may not be obvious, but this anti-emulation system has to be approved and within Nintendo's requirements because else it's not going to pass lotcheck.

It also cannot be a DRM measure: Nintendo is the only one with DRM control on their systems (it just doesn't take a lot of performance). It's only Denuvo by name.

The other thing is that it is very much likely to not affect those who uses hacked consoles to play pirated games, which, uh, reminder that it affects millions of consoles and that it is incredibly easy to pull off.

Personally I think this is pretty much useless and is especially even more useless on multi platform games.

Nintendo better prepare for the massive sh*tstorm if they dare allow this harmful filth on to the Switch. The backlash will be huge as its awful, its worth nothing its done to solve piracy and instead just punishes honest costumers by ruining the games they bought.

@Ralizah Denuvo sucks up resources like a Henry Hoover though. There are many solutions to piracy but making the experience worse for everybody will just push people towards the eventual patched versions thus creating even more pirates.

@Kiwi_Unlimited Nintendo has no involvement in this DRM, it's made by a third party to sell to third parties.

@Kiwi_Unlimited Nintendo products have been widely pirated since the NES days. Compared to most other consoles, Nintendo ones are the most documented for emulation and modding for the sake of running unlicensed software or piracy. I’m pretty sure they’re the only hardware manufacturer that had to deal with people emulating their games during each of their console gens.

Things probably wouldn’t go this way if you didn’t have articles shouting that the latest Nintendo game is playable a week or two early on emulators

@RupeeClock Honestly only the earlier Denuvo anti-temper protections had some effect on system performance. That's already no longer the case. Also they have different kinds of protections. Some more intrusive than others.

This is emulation detection, and that isn't really that hard to do. Even some old SNES games had emulation detection. And surely it will be hacked. But they also update the protections later on. (software updates or in newer games)

@Anachronism then why does anybody buy any software if they can pirate it? Because that's what most people do. And one should not "punish" paying customers for the greed of companies (or more likely: individuals looking for a raise or promotion). Companies like those that sell denuvo thrive on fear. Piracy is not a problem. Hurting your customers and making them pay for the extra expense denuvo would cost is.
Do some research before calling anybody "tremendouslu stupid". https://corsearch.com/does-piracy-impact-sales-a-look-at-the-data/

@nessisonett I've yet to see evidence that Denuvo significantly impacts performance in most games. And anyway, a lot of games with uncapped performance run better on Switch emulators on PC as is, so that dynamic you're concerned about already exists where emulation is tenable.

The reality is that most people won't know or care about this. Some people might say they'll pirate the games to get around Denuvo, but, in general, this group often tends to heavily overlap with those who were going to pirate the game anyway.

I don’t emulate Switch games but I hate Denuvo and will be boycotting any Switch game that contains it.

@Anti-Matter Actually, this isn't about piracy, like you think. Denuvo is bad in general. I have Sonic Mania on PC and it use to have Denuvo. When I went to play not being connected online (had an internet outage at the time), it did not let me play. Sega eventually removed Denuvo, but all it did was stop me from playing a game I paid for.

If you have a game with Denuvo and Denuvo turns off the servers, you're really stuck with an unplayable game. People who pirate games will still pirate, it's proven Denuvo does not stop piracy. All Denuvo does is punish people who buy a game legally.

This is why, understanding why DRM is really bad is very important.

Damn you can tell all the emulator people came out of the woodwork here

This probably would not have happened if you guys stuck with old games instead of a bunch of new Switch games. Xenoblade 3 being pirated was disgusting.

@Wordbonder
Yeah like you mentioned, if this does get implemented and does what you mentioned i will likely just stop buying games for switch and pick up a steam deck.

Lol the switch is already struggling with framerates. This will kill it.

The top of Denuvo’s budget is most likely viral marketing/gaslighting as it’s why they’ve managed to be stain on PC gaming for so long despite being a well documented problem, they’re out in force right now and one called even Digital Foundry’s John Linneman a pirate for being concerned about this. It’s also telling how they sound like a mob protection racket, talking about preventing bad reviews somehow?!?!

Nintendo wont add this to first party games.

Loss prevention is a science, but most people just get lost in "punishing" wrong doers and setting a goal of zero thief, because that's the single defining mantra of Western culture; no free rides.

in reality, however, lost prevention costs money. If you can't increase sales by more then you spend stopping thief, you're better off not stopping theft. Nintendo might be hardcore with protecting their IP, but they didn't spend ANY money trying to make it harder to steal DS games ... they went after the supplies and they got PAID.

Even the 10NES chip was NA only. There was a HUGE market for unofficial FDS games and Nintendo didn't care. So I think NA publishers might use this, but I don't see Nintendo using it.

@Arawn93 Anyone who pirates a Monolith Soft game is a monster in my eyes. Those games give you legit 100s of hours of content and on average are 60 hours long just to finish the main story. They provide new game+ and their DLC expansions tend to be very robust. These games are well worth your money when it comes to pure content.

Xenoblade 3 is a masterpiece and anyone who pirates it has no leg to stand on regarding the moral on that one...

@Wexter Yup. If people want to emulate gameboy Pokémon games because of their argument of “game preservation” then sure.

When new games like Metroid Dread, XB3, etc get pirated day 1 emulation people lost their moral highground argument.

Let’s be real: They just didn’t want to spend money and want free videogames and throw out the lazy excuse of “it won’t impact their sales guys, enough people are picking up the slack” as if that entitles them free games

@Arawn93 Bingo. I hate the argument of "new Switch games are expensive." In that case save your money for that game or wait for it to go on sale. Pirating a game because games are expensive is a load of crock.

I don't care if people emulate old games because, like their old and unless they are available on a modern platform like Steam, or even Nintendo Online it is not harming anyone (I doubt Nintendo and Rockstar are losing sleep over someone emulating Uniracers as an example). But, this whole argument of "the game is selling well anyways" always grinds my gears. Ether have an actual reason or don't pretend like you're a moral crusader doing it. And NO the lack of a "Switch PRO" to play the game at higher FPS or resolution is not a valid argument either.

Denuvo makes games perform worse & alot of switch games already have frame rate issues etc this sounds like a terrible idea

I'll never ever again buy a game with denuvo. It's nothing else than a punishment for buying a game.

as someone on the spectrum with anxiety who largely relies on offline games as a kind of "comfort" having to worry about online checks and other things in single player games isnt really reassuring.

i know it sounds silly but over the past few years i had been going through some rough times and the switch was a kind of "safe space" and this kind of thing just seems like its going to make that "safe space" feel less safe.

@Ralizah

Look at the pc version of Resident Evil Village, there was tests done showing a noticeable improvement in the cracked deveno free version compared to the official version

@Koda1000 They have nothing to do with this and Nintendo gets hate because they are known to be anti- consumer. They also are now accused of allowing sexual harassment and discrimination in their North American offices. You can enjoy the games while hating the company that publishes them.

@Pditty1980 It was happening because Capcom decided to add ANOTHER DRM in addition to Denuvo. Dunno why, Camcom sometimes do stuff like that.

I for one would be very glad to see the emulation-piracy go down or made significant harder to achieve.

so basically Nintendo would rather their games run at 15FPS or lower just to protect them from piracy? terrible company

@HeadPirate you sure about that? I wouldn't count out Nintendo doing this to their exclusive to protect them from piracy but killing the frame rate and endless crashes

Don't steal games, then this sort of thing won't happen...

Denuvo is awful. It causes the games to chug hard on PC. RE8 on launch on PC, look it up.

The price we responsible players have to pay for those who actually pirate games to use on emulators...

If a******* would stop pirating games, there would be no need for this.

@KBuckley27

Did you read my post? For 30 years Nintendo has opted out of using tech like this, even as NOA pushed for it. This isn't new; the NES in NA had a chip that prevented pirated games from being played, but the famicom didn't and you could buy unlicensed games at corner stores. Nintendo didn't see it as a problem, even though NOA did. It's different mindsets. But NOA has nothing to do with game development.

There was tech like this for the 3DS and the Wii, Nintendo passed on using it both times. They would have to pay money to use this software, when instead they can just continue suing pirates and getting huge settlements.

I think you're not making the split between IP and Copyright violation, like suing someone who has a website with links to pirated games, and DRM. Nintendo is all about the 1st, but has never done the second despite having every opportunity.

@okeribok Because people have different senses of morality? Some people think of it as wrong to take something they haven't earned. Some people think of piracy as a victimless crime, since they're just making another copy rather than outright stealing something. Some people will only spend money on games when they like them enough to deserve it, and are happy to pirate whatever doesn't meet their arbitrary standards. Companies responding to it aren't trying to punish their customers. They've just done the math and figured that the benefit in sales is worth the cost in their customers' good will, same as why subscription services and microtransactions have become more popular. Denuvo specifically probably hasn't seen as much uptake because of the backlash it's gotten. And that link doesn't even support your argument. It basically says piracy does negatively impact sales, but it's hard to gauge exactly how much.

Not sure why Switch even need this, games like Doom, Warframe, Ninjala, NSO, and Asphalt 9 Legends already had DRM. And Denuvo is not DRM, it's a malware. Why would any one want that on a console (a device that shouldn't had to worry about malware)? Any software that hamper performance or slowdown a system's ram is malware. If I want malware with my games I'll just stick to PC but console gamers shouldn't had to deal with malware. Don't let it happen or you will get sue Nintendo.

@KBuckley27
Nintendo wasn't involve in this

DRM regardless is a cruch in any games regardless. Whom are they trying to stop? pirates that just laugh it off. Remember Sony DRM Music cds how it was invalidated with Black Major market and their DRM circumventing computer security making more security holes.

I’m quite alright with saying the world does not need people who make DRM technology and would be better without them.

Might need to find a new console soon. Nintendo cares more about pirates than paying customers and this just affirms it.

@Ocaz
Again, you do know Nintendo isn't behind this right

@Willo567 in what way are they not behind software they approve to appear for sale on their digital marketplace? Little weird to defend them on this. It’s their choice not to stop it.

@Ocaz
I'm pretty sure Nintendo isn't going to force third-party developers to use Denuvo on Switch. If a publisher does use it, they're stupid.

Forcing them to use it is not what I meant. If present within the software Nintendo still approves that game to be sold. You can’t just show up on the eshop without warning. While very overly pathetically bare, nintendos does have an approval process to list your game on that market. They shoulder the blame as well.

@steventonysmith Piracy on Switch isn't as bad as you might think lmao. Do some research.

this is sad, because I really like the Switch and even though I have extreme easy access to modded switches (I live in China), I stick with my official unmodified switch and collect many cartridges. If they start using denuvo on switch I will skip these games until the point where I will just get rid of the switch.

Remember Nintendo Publishes the game it's the Developer that decides to have DRM or not. The blame will be the Developer not Nintendo. If the Developer is smart they say PUT WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE.

@SwitchForce That's not how it works

This stuff is aimed at Publishers and Developers: Publishers can ask the developer under their banner to implement this in their game.

Why are people assuming all emulation is for piracy? It isn't.

I play a lot of games I've legally purchased and copied myself using emulation. A big part of that is for accessibility. My vision is pretty poor so I struggle with handled screens a lot, even on something like 3DS XL. Emulating lets me actually play the games I've paid for.

Plus, its nice to have all my games on one platform without having to re-buy everything every generation (assuming they're even available).

The fact is a lot of older consoles are dying and the games just aren't being made available for newer platforms. We're getting to the point where emulation is the only way the play some of the older games people own. This isn't an issue for switch right now, but it will be someday.

@sanderev how is it disgusting if i have my switch library on my steam deck using Yuzu?!

I don't use my switch anymore i rather play it on my Steam Deck. So why am i a disgusting being according to you? 🤬

@Ocaz So Steam and Epic Games are also to blame for publishers using Denuvo?
Also, as I've mentioned before in the comments: This is not a DRM.

This cannot be a DRM measure because the Switch already has a DRM: The operating system is already handling this because it's easier to "manage digital rights" (the original point of DRM, meaning "Digital Rights Management") on a closed ecosystem where people can't install unapproved stuff like on PC.
(The same goes for every single console on the market since the PS3/360/Wii gen.)

Looking at the website over and over makes me think it's just anti-emulation which is very likely not to impact performance, but I think it's essentially useless if you own a hacked Switch... not to mention that emulators will improve enough for the anti-emulation code to be useless.
But this is not putting Denuvo as we know it (as anti-piracy and anti-tamper to enforce DRM) from PC to Switch. You can't do that. Nintendo would be likely to disallow it.

Denuvo are vile corporate bile that prey on the minds of weak games company leaders, like a virus Denuvo software also keylogs and attempt to harvest passwords and user accounts and identities.

If a developer targets 30fps on Switch, they'll be lucky to get it it to hit 15fps due to Denuvo.

When powerful PC hardware feels the hit you know Denuvo software is illegally trawling your system.

@sanderev yeah, and it also doesn't slow down RE8 either! I guess all those videos comparing them side by side were wrong. Do you believe everything that companies say, lol.

https://youtu.be/UXZGCwAJpbM

Guess I'll just be buying on PS5 now and only use Switch for Nintendo exclusives. 🤷

@Arawn93 "When new games like Metroid Dread, XB3, etc get pirated day 1 emulation people lost their moral highground argument.

Let’s be real: They just didn’t want to spend money and want free videogames and throw out the lazy excuse of “it won’t impact their sales guys, enough people are picking up the slack” as if that entitles them free games"

Metroid Dread was the best selling Metroid game ever.

Piracy didn't affect the sales.

Pirates just wouldn't have ever bought the game.

Companies spend more money stopping people from playing than they are losing from what they think are potential sales. Being upset about people playing a game for free than being upset about money lost is idiotic.

@Ursaking Why? Not even a single developer has said if they'll be using this yet.

@ThePizzaCheese That is not the argument I or any others are making. I'm pro emulators and push people to backup their purchased content. But, what I and others are against are people pirating games like Xenoblade 3, Metroid Dread and other Switch games when those games are still ratably available.

If you purchased those games, legally dumped them on your PC and want to use emulators that is fine. But, most people who emulate Switch games I highly doubt do that process. My issue is with piracy not emulation.

@Richnj What he is saying is that people who pirate those games did not care to purchase those titles and don't have a moral leg to stand on if they do. Just because a game sells well does not mean that people pirating the game did so in good faith or make it anymore morally okay.

Their argument is that just because a game is selling well does not give someone a right to pirate a game that you can buy at any game store, online or even on Nintendo's own market place okay. Especially when these games have been begged for by fans to be made and released like Metroid Dread.

@broskiplays It's disgusting that because people like you force companies to protect their copyright. So it is because of people like you that this kind of DRM exists.

Because I am not going to believe that you buy every single Switch game you play on your Steam deck and make your own personal copy of the cartridges. ONLY THEN would it be acceptable.

@Wexter Yeah I get that, but I wish people would be more specific with their chose of words. Many of the comments here generalize emulation as piracy, which can hurt legal emulation's reputation.

What makes DRM so frustrating is that it just ends up hurting legal players since pirates will just crack it anyway. Kinda like how banning guns just disarms the innocent.

Although, ultimately, publishers know that DRM doesn't stop piracy. It's just there to reassure investors who don't understand how games work and just want to be assured they'll get their money back. It's just business I guess.

@sanderev
I've copied like half my library. (Haven't done switch yet but I plan on it.)
It's really not that hard. Why don't you believe that he's done it?

@Wexter Right, but if the customer got the game they wanted, and got to give the company their £50, and the company got that £50, and the company made their maximum profit for said product, then there is no damage to any party, and if no damage occured, then there is no morally wrong doing.

What if there was a paying customer, who paid Nintendo their money, and wanted to emulate the game they paid for? Is that morally wrong?

@Richnj It's morally wrong because it's unjust.

Plus he already said he's fine if people emulate games they pay for.

@ThePizzaCheese "It's morally wrong because it's unjust"

That's circular logic. How is it unjust?

"Plus he already said he's fine if people emulate games they pay for"

Right, but if Pirates aren't ever going to buy games, then the only people you punish by including anti-piracy methods are?

@Richnj
It's unjust because one person got something for free that others had to work for.

And I already pointed out that DRM just hurts legal players. Please read some of the previous comments before posting.

@LuigiBlood Whom do you think writes the code for the game the Developers they have just as much say since they will be the one held accountable for how bad or good the game runs. Take example Balan World whom as responsible when someone need blame it was the programmer whom was terminated Nintendo didn't get hurt financially from this. Doing so will stop people from buying their games and guess what does to their bottom line on a popular console such as Switch you make big Stink not what you want.

@ThePizzaCheese Yeah I get that, but I wish people would be more specific with their chose of words. Many of the comments here generalize emulation as piracy, which can hurt legal emulation's reputation.
So tell us whom has done it legally and the Software developer not the Publisher has agreed to this? And yet to be paid for their Software Development.

@ThePizzaCheese What makes DRM so frustrating is that it just ends up hurting legal players since pirates will just crack it anyway. Kinda like how banning guns just disarms the innocent.
One of the worst kinda scheme these two don't equate the same. Guns kill or has one forgotten this. Let's stop this kinda false equivalence here. Legal players don't get hurt they stop buying the game to show their Power of the Purse. That's how you change the Publisher and Developer to re-think what they are doing.

@ThePizzaCheese Although, ultimately, publishers know that DRM doesn't stop piracy. It's just there to reassure investors who don't understand how games work and just want to be assured they'll get their money back. It's just business I guess.
But then again why don't one indentify the Pirates so this also stops as well or is one part of the problem too. It's not the investors it's the software developers whom has their Blood&Sweat labor stolen from them that spent many years making the software. If those whom knows the pirate exposes them this will stop hurting legal Gamers.

@SwitchForce oh okay you just proved you're not understanding the industry at all

@SwitchForce
1. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are trying to say, the way you write is very difficult to understand. I can't tell if you are accusing me of something or not. All the games I emulate are legally purchased and copied.

2. First of all, guns don't kill, people do. But second, my point was that making things illegal doesn't make a difference to criminals anyways. It hurts legal players because they don't have decent games to buy now, but I see your point about voting with your wallet.

3. I didn't say developers aren't hurt by piracy, just that they're smart enough to know DRM doesn't solve the issue. But how does DRM expose pirates anyway? And what does that do to stop them?

@ThePizzaCheese Yeah, I agree. That is why I try to use the term pirate and emulation as separate terms. I hate DRM as it normally does not work and all it does is as you said punish the paying player.

Though yeah whatever someone does with their legally purchased cart is no business of mine.

@Richnj I think you misread my comment and that is okay. I've noted that if people want to dump their legally purchased game that is their decision to use it with an emulator or not. But, my beef (and the beef a lot of people have) is people who pirate Switch games without the intention of paying the publisher and develop for their hard work.

I'm more annoyed when people pirate amazing games like Metroid Dread and Xenoblade 3 days after they are released. Because in those games' cases they are a labor of love by the devs and those devs deserve your money. Especially Monolith Soft with Xenoblade 3 which is easily over 200 hours to complete the game, and 60-80 hours to finish the main-story. Xenoblade might be popular now, but the Xeno franchise has historically struggled with sales (look up Xenogears and Xenosaga) and a driving reason why Nintendo was so hesitant to give us the first Xenoblade on the Wii.

I just have extreme doubts that people who use a Switch emulator on their PC/Steamdeck pay for these games in general. Not saying everybody doesn't, but I doubt a majority do.

@ThePizzaCheese "It's unjust because one person got something for free that others had to work for."

So if you all got it for free then it would be just, no?

"And I already pointed out that DRM just hurts legal players. Please read some of the previous comments before posting."

I'm trying to point out that if, what you've already conceeded, DRM doesn't stop piracy, and that if piracy doesn't equate to lost sales, that the existence of anti-piracy software only hurts the legally doing it. Thus, any piracy done isn't actually affecting the normal trading/relationship between customer and business. If a pirate isn't affecting that, then there can be no harm. If there's no harm, there's no moral wrong happening.

You even said that companies only do it for investors.

Ultimately, anyone upset about pirates getting stuff for free when they can't demonstrate harm but calling it morally wrong, just sound jealous. It's odd.

I was leading you to water and you were p*ssing in it and complaining about the taste.

@Wexter I've not misread. I'm trying to understand why this;

"my beef (and the beef a lot of people have) is people who pirate Switch games without the intention of paying the publisher and develop for their hard work."

upsets people. Because it shouldn't. How much is ok to pay?. Say I bought a game, second hand, for 1p. Is that ok? The dev never saw that money, it didn't help them in any way.

@Richnj I think you're looking to find issue with what I'm saying. If a dev is charging $70 for their game that is the amount they want you to pay. And if you bought a game for 1 penny and the retail price is $70 that game was probably stolen from a store. You're example is kind of arse as that situation is maybe 0.00001% of all game sales.

But, pirating without the intention of paying for a game is morally wrong. No matter how much you try to justify it, actively pirating a game for your personal enjoyment and you don't plan to compensate the publisher/developer for the game is **wrong.** And, if you read earlier comments I've made I've discussed used games and games no longer for sale. That is a different situation from someone pirating a BRAND NEW video game that is still commonly available. That is what we're discussing here.

If you pirate games it is not my job to justify that for you. I would advise just saving up your money or waiting for a sale. If you still take umbrage with what I'm saying I think you're just wanting to justify piracy to yourself, not to me.

@Richnj If everyone got the game free then the developer wouldn't get paid for their work. And if they don't get paid then games don't get made. See how that works?

I didn't say piracy doesn't equate to lost sales, I said that current DRM doesn't increase sales. Theres a difference.

Just because something is "harmless" doesn't mean it's not morally wrong. Again, justice is a big part of morality.

@Wexter I'm trying to make a specific point, and I don't think people saying stuff like "it's morally wrong" have really thought through why they think it is so. So it comes across as me trying to find an issue, because it's something you've not considered thoroughly.

"No matter how much you try to justify it, actively pirating a game for your personal enjoyment and you don't plan to compensate the publisher/developer for the game is **wrong.**"

Like this. It implies that the moral wrong is compensation for the work, but then I gave you an extreme example of how a legally and generally accepted practice is considered morally ok. Depsite the fact that the dev does not get compensated for that transaction. You even had to explain it away as must have taken place illegally.

It's logically inconsistent.

As far as the dev and the customer is concerned, there is no difference between a second hand customer or a pirate, or whether they play that game on launch day or ten years down the line. In all cases the dev never got compenstated. So the dev getting compenstated isn't the line drawn to determine what's morally ok.

@Ralizah Nintendo and third parties are selling record numbers in both hardware and software, how is it untenable for them? Almost every month (if not every week) we see stories like "X developer reports Y game sold more on Switch than other consoles put together" - why exactly do they need to put in additional DRM? You may not believe DRM slows things down, but it theoretically does (has to execute more codes, more checks, more online pings, etc.) and there have been well-documented instances of slowdowns happening on much more powerful PCs. On Switch it will be a mini-disaster as the Switch struggles to play certain first/second party titles at a stable 30 fps. It won't be a massive disaster only because Nintendo fanboys will enjoy their 10 fps games because it is Nintendo. Enjoy Nintendo's better profit margins!

@Richnj let me indulge you. A new game is a license that was purchased. If you back-up that game, destroy it or use it for its intended use is up to you. But if you sell that copy of the game you are legally supposed to destroy all extra backups you've made as you only paid for that one license which is transferred to the new owner. That is how used sales works in my eyes. You're transferring a paid license to another person for compensation for your initial purchase. Completely different from piracy as even compensation wise that dev was still paid for that initial license that now **belongs** to someone else and you no longer have access to it to either resell, destroy, distribute or play.

When you pirate a game that license was never transferred and now two copies of the game now exist when only one was ever paid for. Legally speaking that is wrong and completely different from the example you used.

I'm talking legalistic morality when it comes to software sale. And I'm also talking about personal disgust with people who do not compensate a developer for their enjoyment of a product and they never plan to.

EDITED for clarity

@Richnj I can assure you that many of us have put a lot of thought into this topic. Assuming we haven't just because we disagree with you is pretty arrogant.

The difference with used games is that they have been paid for, to the developer, at some point in that copies history. The person who sells the game in turn loses access to it.

@ThePizzaCheese I like this cheese pizza, they make sense.

@Wexter Thank you kindly, my fellow commentor 😉. Always a pleasure to see logical thinkers such as yourself as well.

Wat a sad day for pirates. Sigh. 😢

To be fair, developers and publishers do have the right to protect their products from being stolen even if they choose methods that are of questionable value.

@Richnj yup here is another one with head deep inside butt that acts like piracy of new games is still in the morale high-ground and denies reality that they are loss of sales because they want their free games and justify “rest are paying enough so it’s ok if I pirate” type of selfish entitlement that validates leeching behavior which is objectively detrimental in society.

@Wexter What if that one copy was sold 10 million times but the dev only received one payment of £60? Is that OK? . Because you have to remember we initially settled on "compensate the dev" as the original justification of piracy being morally wrong.

So now we've moved on to licenses in circulation. Which is a more nebulous Idea. Once we get here do we agreed that as long as most of the money makes it's way to the dev, that they recieved proper compensation for their work?

@ThePizzaCheese it's really hard to not be arrogant when you get responses like "it's morally wrong because it's unjust".

@Arawn93 "acts like piracy of new games is still in the morale high-ground"

I've literally spent several posts explaining it's morally neutral.

@Richnj Not the same thing. That copy could be sold 1,000,000 times and the person who currently owns that copy would be the only one allowed to play it. That copy was paid for. And if those other 999,999 people want to play that game again they need to buy it again which means either they need to buy a new copy from the dev or find a used copy and compensate someone else for their copy that was paid for to the devs. That is how this works. 1 for 1.

Do you honestly think used games and piracy are morally equivalent? They're not. Stop thinking they are the argument is a bad one. One is a licence transfer the other is illegal duplication and distribution. They're not the same. And before you say I'm contradicting myself, I'm not. I've been completely consistent that people who pirate new games are morally wrong as those devs were never compensated for that pirate's copy.

If that game is no longer available to purchase legally then we can have a discussion about that moral grey area. But, we're not. We're clearly discussing new games, that are very and I mean very available.

@ThePizzaCheese 'Yet' being the keyword here. If everyone rejects Denuvo and Nintendo decides not to use it, that's fantastic. But I don't want to get locked out of singleplayer games I paid for because my internet is down or their servers are offline. Been there, done that, not doing it again.

@Ursaking Well yeah, but why not just avoid the games that use Denuvo? Why would you avoid all 3rd party Switch games just because some use Denuvo?

@Richnj
So, basically, you admit I'm right.

@ThePizzaCheese Of course it depends on which games they shove it into. I'll definitely be avoiding those and will buy them elsewhere.

Seems like 90% of the people here are uninformed. You can EASILY dumps Switch games you BOUGHT and play them on the emulators. There is NOTHING wrong with that. Nintendo would shut the emulators down if it weren't 100% legal, which it is. The ONLY thing illegal is downloading games that you didn't buy.

So don't go an assume because someone wants customizable controls, post-processing filters and the other tons of enhancements emulators offer to the playing experience, they're pirates. Just ignorant.

Look forward to worse gameplay, being locked out of games you bought (happened to TW Warhammer 3 players just last week), and eventually losing access to DLC and games because the DRM getting turned off (like what's going on with Ubisoft and what happened with Microsoft store years ago).