Before we begin, let me address one thing: media representation is important. Always has been, always will be, but many keep questioning why. Whenever this subject appears, comments like “why does it matter? Why can’t you just play the game?” appear and if you’ve ever thought this, chances are that you’ve always been well represented. In recent years, the games industry has become more inclusive and while progress remains needed, thankfully, that’s not slowing down. However, despite positive steps, those efforts continue facing intense resistance.
When Nintendo can’t outline extremely basic diversity initiatives without accusations of “pandering” or “virtue signalling”, it's a problem. I’ve lost count of how often I’ve seen POC (people of colour) representation described as “forced” or “political”, and it’s the same for LGBTQ+ characters. To such critics, simply discussing these matters is too much. They tell us we’d be better served by remaining quiet and that highlighting these issues only deepens the divide, which would be a bizarre take if it wasn’t so completely transparent. There’s nothing political about people existing or wanting to play as themselves in video games, putting ourselves into those worlds is part of the escapism. After all, how often have we all replicated ourselves (or at least attempted to!) inside a character creator?
As a British-Caribbean man, personally, I just want to see POC characters represented. We don’t need grand explanations, elaborate story reasons and, please for the love of god, no stereotypes. Just let them be there as a normal cast member, job done. That’s not an unreasonable request. Sometimes — not all the time, necessarily, but sometimes — I’d like to play as someone who looks like me, to see characters who might have shared experiences. Many games don’t need a story, but we often get invested when they do, and that’s when it becomes more than “just a game”. Considering this current backdrop, it’s important to recognise what representation we already have, and in the past few years, Nintendo has slowly improved.
Now, I’m not going to claim Nintendo as some bastion of POC representation and I can’t ignore where it has previously gone wrong. Mr. Game & Watch using a Native American silhouette (before being swiftly removed) in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is perhaps the most recent example. Pokémon’s original Jynx design famously resembled blackface, and Skull Kid’s Japanese design originally drew similar criticism. Let’s not forget Punch-Out!! either, using stereotypes like initially naming the Russian fighter “Vodka Drunkenski”, before changing it to Soda Popinski.
Breath of the Wild gave us Lady Urbosa, a fearless but compassionate chief, taken too soon by Calamity Ganon
Granted, most listed instances here are historic and recent times have shown more positive corporate action. Alongside Nintendo President Shuntaro Furakawa’s recent affirmation in supporting diversity, last year saw Nintendo join Microsoft, Sony and other publishers in sharing their support for Black communities and BLM worldwide. Furthermore, according to a now-deleted tweet, one Nintendo employee suggested the company was double-matching donations to related causes, going beyond its standard policy of simply matching donations. Sure, as with any company or cause, you can argue it could have done more — and in some ways, I’m inclined to agree — but the fact we’re actually seeing visible action is an improvement.
Within its games, POC representation was rather light until recent years, and a notable 'earlier' appearance was the Gerudo tribe in the Zelda series. While Ganondorf was the Gerudo King, the franchise has brought us strong examples of Gerudo who ultimately opposed him, such as Ocarina of Time’s Naboruu, the Sage of Spirit. More recently, Breath of the Wild gave us Lady Urbosa, a fearless but compassionate chief, taken too soon by Calamity Ganon. As for Urbosa’s successor, Riju, we found an interesting character — one that ascended to her position too young, full of doubt but ultimately a capable leader.
Between those two Zelda entries, a surprising source of POC representation also came from 2010’s Metroid: Other M, and while I won’t pretend there aren’t valid criticisms surrounding Samus’ portrayal in that game, Team Ninja did a great job with Galactic Federation soldier Anthony Higgs, one of her old friends. Reuniting aboard the BOTTLE SHIP, not only does Higgs prove himself to be a fine soldier, he’s one of the few characters to show Samus genuine respect across this adventure. Undoubtedly, their friendship was one of Other M’s highlights.
not only does Higgs prove himself to be a fine soldier, he’s one of the few characters to show Samus genuine respect across this adventure
Fire Emblem is another prominent example, though until Three Houses that never extended beyond minor recruitable characters. Alongside Edelgard and Dimitri, Claude made for a genuinely intriguing leader of the Leicester Alliance, easygoing on the surface but a cunning strategist underneath. Dedue’s role cannot be understated and while he isn’t as prominent, his position as Dimitri’s loyal retainer highlighted prejudice many within the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus held towards his homeland, Duscur. Petra too, Brigid’s kind-hearted Crown Princess that's a political hostage for the Adrestian Empire, after her state is forced into vassalage.
Particularly on Switch, Nintendo’s library has continued improving in this area. While Pokémon Sun and Moon introduced several POC characters like Trial Captains Ilima and Kiawe — not forgetting Akala Island’s Kahuna Olivia — Sword and Shield built upon that further by offering key representation with our rival Hop, Gym Leader Nessa and the Galar region’s champion, Leon. Splatoon 2 featured a new DJ with Marina alongside band partner Pearl, greeting you every time you fired up the game with match details, while ARMS’ Twintelle became a popular pick with players, joined by Misango in the wider roster.
Just having those characters within is a step closer to normalising POC appearances, but few could argue that indie developers have regularly outshone Nintendo (and most major publishers) by exploring under-represented cultures. Raji: An Ancient Epic made for a commendable adventure last year, offering a brief but intriguing premise based around Hindu mythology. Aerial_Knight’s Never Yield recently gave us a stylish action-platformer set within a futuristic Detroit, while the upcoming Aztech Forgotten Gods imagines a Mesoamerica that wasn’t colonized by European powers.
That’s not forgetting Dandara: Trials Of Fear, an action-adventure platformer that draws upon Brazilian folklore. Several months ago, I spoke with Long Hat House’s João Brant, asking what inspired the developers to choose this setting. He confirmed that once they designed gameplay, they wanted to “add a certain "Brazilianty" to our games,” hoping to show people what their country was like. Looking into Brazillian conflicts, they drew inspiration from the Quilombo dos Palmares, gradually moving from a direct historical approach into an allegory.
Realising it had to be about slavery, Brant acknowledged this was a “very difficult topic to address” that required “a lot of research to do it respectfully”, telling me he believes Brazil treats its own history with slavery poorly. Eventually, they turned towards Afro-Brazilian warrior Dandara, discussing the symbolism within those legends and contrasting it with the little information known about her life. Ultimately, they chose Dandara’s name “as a homage”, moving onto new story ideas while incorporating elements of Brazilian history. While it wasn’t intended to fully educate players, Brant informed me this approach was designed as “an invitation” for players to learn more, and there’s a fascinating history within.
By exploring these under-represented cultures, indie developers have shown us exactly what gaming can accomplish. Nintendo’s efforts haven’t reached this stage yet — and while this may be a comic book adaptation, we’ve yet to see them address it in the way Sony’s recent Miles Morales game does — but the fact is POC are finally getting greater visibility in major titles, which is fantastic.
This isn’t a matter of wanting to see ourselves as Mario, it’s about seeing developers acknowledge the fact we exist, that we aren’t just side characters or after thoughts. The act of simply existing isn’t “political” and not all examples are perfect, but the wider industry’s making the right moves. Gradually, Nintendo has followed, something I hope it’ll continue building upon.
Comments 397
Just a friendly note to say that we shall be monitoring comments closely – please remember to be respectful when speaking to others in the Nintendo Life community. If you have nothing productive or positive to bring to the conversation, you’re not obliged to comment.
@dartmonkey You mean "please, don't comment".
It's always good to see more meaningful representation. You get the outliers that either outright ignore it or include it as a common 'token character' which personally feel does more harm than good (same with any depicted character regardless of race and/or other).
People come from all walks of life, so should fictional characters. Just please be well written whoever you make!
I agree that hopefully sometime in the future any character (be it fictional or real life) from any walk of life can just be seen as normal. It's asinine how we as humans still haven't achieved that fully.
(Also Twintelle is bae).
YOCs are well represented in Nintendo games (Yoshis of colour). I'm sure people can be too
@Tibob I mean "comment respectfully without breaking our community rules". They can be found below the 'Leave A Comment' box.
Nintendo are definitely getting better. Japan is such a homogeneous country and I do think that it’s only recently that Nintendo have fully acknowledged that their games are being made for a wider audience than just Japan. So there’s a while yet to go before we get a Miles Morales moment but it’s slowly getting there.
@dartmonkey I just finished reading the article. Dissenting, cordial opinion should be allowed. It’s unrealistic to only speak positively of the articles content, as the way it was written was fairly weak and leaves room for discussion from many angles. If you mean “no racist or trolling comments,” then come out and say it. The way you are coming off now sounds like you are suggesting that we ONLY speak positively. This article has some high points and some low points. Both moments should be given the voice for discussion.
The Mario series struggles with diversity as it reuses characters a lot and doesn't create new ones very often. Therefore, I was quite happy to see a large proportion of black people among New Donk's residents in Odyssey, even if they just served as background characters. It's a start.
So why do we need to ask for representation? Why not let people tell the stories they want to tell with the characters they want to tell it with?
@Tibob
They didn't say that, and unless you're being deliberately obtuse, you wouldn't think they said as such.
@hillyarb
Why do you think these are incompatible?
@chapu2006 I just don't understand what is wrong with Mario the way it is? I don't see anyone living in Wakanda outside of Wakandas and nobody has an issue with that.
I come from Guyana myself and in most cases, I don't give representation too much thought. However, I remember playing one of the older pokemon games and finding out that Mew was found in Guyana according to the game. I got so excited because I haven't ever seen a game actually mention the country my family comes from lol.
@nessisonett Miles Morales is tokenized spiderman... Not sure why people keep seeing that as a good thing.
@BloodNinja Contributing positively doesn't mean offering only blind praise or not being critical. It simply means contributing in an additive way that doesn't derail the conversation or disrespect others.
@BloodNinja
They didn't say only positive interpretations of the article, they said productive or positive comments.
I believe you're intelligent enough to know the difference.
@Franklin because of the comments I see here. There are people saying Mario Kingdom is a problem because of the characters skin tone.
@chapu2006 this is why I can't stand Daisy and Rosalina, characters that are very popular to others. One literally dresses like Peach, but in yellow with brown hair and a different cut. The other looks like if Peach decided to be a fairy instead. At least Pauline had a different design.
@dartmonkey shouldn't the comments be monitored for rule violations on every article? Or is this one special?
You are more than your skin. As a human being we have to keep reminding ourselves that:
Skin color is not culture.
Skin color does not guarantee behavior.
Skin color does NOT mean you can act a certain way, or treat others a certain way.
Skin color is not a personality trait.
I can go on, but I hope you get the idea. You are not your skin. That’s not something that was chosen by you; it was given to you so that your internal organs have protection from harsh elements. Over time, different skin tones became a natural occurrence based on varying sun exposure, which became set into our genetics. Nothing more.
We have to remember to go back to the original source, or original purpose for all things. We can romanticize our skin color all we like, but in the end it’s only for protection against the elements, and for sensory feedback.
NINJA APPROVED
@hillyarb You clearly haven’t read the comics lmao. He’s a whole lot more interesting than Peter Parker with a different power set and everything.
I thought we’d seen the last of this type of article after the cringeworthy ‘Metroid gave me a reason to exist’ nonsense.
Why bother having a comments section if people can only make comments that adhere to the authors limited view on the subject.
As a long time gamer, people of all races and genders have been represented for many years. Look at Street Fighter 2, Final Fights Poison is transgender etc etc.
Also, I don’t want to play as myself in a game, I want to be Fox McCloud, Ryu, Mario, A Special Forces soldier etc. I play games for fun and escapism.
@dartmonkey I understand, thank you for clarifying.
@Franklin
I made a comment and it was erased. Not a mean one. Not a racist one. So it feels like we better say what NLife wants to read, here.
Great article, and it's nice to see Nintendo upping their POC representation in recent years.
@hillyarb It could be down to how artists and creators feel forced to make something a certain way to appease the current culture climate. Examples being it was bad for games if they featured a lead female character (back in the 90s) and things like that. That forced nature limits what the actual creator could want.
Now of course if the creator / artist doesn't want to include other races, genders or whatever that should be perfectly fine as well. Pro-artistic freedom. The artist should have full control not the consumer in this case.
I played Animal Crossing and Pokemon Snap with a young mixed race girl, and guess what, she wanted to make the characters look like her (although possibly with pink/blue hair)! It's not unreasonable.
This is a refreshing article to read - POC do need more representation in gaming. To live in a truly inclusive world, we have to literally include all. When you can name the only handful of titles that do this, you realize it is a problem.
Comment section not locked as yet, that's progress in itself.
@nessisonett if you could explain to me what makes him a success then, why is he a model that others should follow? How could that lesson be applied to Mario or Zelda?
@Franklin The fact that the post needed to be clarified to several people. shows that there was too much room to interpret its intent. Please do not be patronizing to others intelligence for seeking clearer communication.
Media representation is not important at all, and im saying this as an ARGENTINIAN, we dont appear in any videogame except sports ones and we don't care. What's important, is to have characters that feel human.
Im a straight male and I loved max from life is strange, akiyama from yakuza 4 and zack from crisis core. Skin color representation is not important AT ALL.
And don't use the word LatinX, it's cringey at best and condescending at worst. Gracias y adios!
More representation is never a bad thing. Growing up nearly all characters in my games were white, except in wrestling games. I can imagine being a younger POC of the 80's/90's and wondering "why doesn't anyone look like me?"
A month ago I saw my Fortnite obsessed nephews, and right smack in the middle of one of their hour long rantings (about this game I couldn't care less about) my 7 year old nephew dropped, in a very serious, sincere tone "I downloaded a pretty cool black character, because Black Lives Matter."
I was stunned. And proud. Kids get it, why can't adults?
@XenoShaun I'd disagree with the "bad to have female lead" with Tomb Raider actually being quite a successful property. But I agree that artists should feel free.
@nessisonett
Any recommendations? I’ve only read him in crossover stories and wouldn’t know where to start for his own stuff?
I'm all for further representation - and I'm glad to see Three Houses get mentioned because I thought Petra and Dedue were superbly written characters - but there's clearly more immediate and pressing issues to be dealt with first.
i.e. the abuse three black England players received after the Euros Final.
@hillyarb
Well let's look into that.
Why is Mario white?
Likely because Europeans have dominated the world for around 300 years, and Nintendo wanted to appeal to the largest markets.
If left alone, things perpetuate. If a company makes an effort to represent people better, they demonstrate leadership.
People should tell the stories they want to tell, but there is nothing wrong with trying to encourage greater representation. No-one is being sent to a gulag for not doing so.
The writer sees encouraging signs from Nintendo and is hopeful for more.
@Jmjfrank It's because they get very upset that they can't tell the author of an article from a discriminated against group (women, people from ethnic minorities) that their opinion is limited.
@PaulBizkit Bingo. We demand perfect representation but at the end of the day we are all unique people part of the human family.
One of the responses I see most often to this kind of article is something along the lines of "why does a player need to play as their own "race"?" What's ironic about that question though, is that it then shouldn't bother the people asking it when a game asks them to play as characters who are dark-skinned, etc. And for some reason, it often does. It's one thing to object when someone places importance on that that you don't (a whole other issue I'll get in to below), but I often see anytime a game is described as having a black main character, or a woman, or a queer character, etc., people will say it's being political and that it shouldn't matter what the identity of the main character is. Well if it shouldn't matter, then why say anything about it?
@hillyarb Oh yes, I think more so what the execs believed, not neccessarily the market itself. Wasn't long ago Ubisoft was making excuses they didn't want a female lead for Assassin's Creed because 'it would be too much work to animate them'. Unfortunately the execs get to dictate what we can and can't have in the bigger industry.
@Franklin I mean, Mario is a pretty reductive stereotype of italian people (It's a-me) from Japanese developers, but otherwise I agree with you
@PaulBizkit Love your post. Creating more human-like characters sounds like such a novel concept! But everyone focuses on the surface area...the skin color. Literally the least important representation of a human, as it is only proof of how much skin pigment contained in their DNA, and how much sun exposure they seem to have.
NINJA APPROVED
Great piece.
Underneath the Super Metroid Right to Exist article, I posted the following (part of a) comment: "...It would be great to read something similar from the point of view of a black journalist, say, given that non-Asian non-white minority representation appears to have been historically lousy in Japanese games, including Nintendo's. Whether the staff want to moderate the comments on such an article is of course another matter..."
I didn't realise it'd come about so soon. Good to see. I hope, but don't expect, that the comments are more respectful this time about where the writer's coming from. And that nobody 'confuses' respect for other cultures with communism or something equally daft.
@PessitheMystic what is your point?
@TryToBeHopeful
I only see that as underlining my point.
@Jmjfrank proud? Because it takes a video game to teach them that black people are ‘cool’
That comment is as patronising as it gets.
@hillyarb Because Miles Morales is a role model for black and Latin kids. He comes from a neighbourhood in which many kids from those backgrounds do, he deals with the same issues in school and outside that many of those kids do. And yet he’s a superhero. Marvel have always had ‘outsiders’ as their heroes for those same ‘outsiders’ to look up to. X-Men, Luke Cage, even Peter Parker was originally an outsider due to him being a ‘nerd’ for other ‘nerds’ to look up to.
@BenGrimm It’s a hard one because he was originally in the Ultimate Universe and he’s just kinda dumped into the main universe. So if you’re familiar with Ultimate comics then go for his solo run there. If not, jump straight into the Miles Morales: Spider Man series that started a few years ago!
@Manjushri Just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they're terrible.
Pretty much. they know the woke articles are unpopular so they have to moderate more. Maybe they should take a hint, video games are for fun, not for political agendas.
maybe we can have more than a single bi male character in Fire Emblem at some point? The only gay romances tend to be women
@Franklin next question... Are Italians white? That's my issue with all this. People start asking questions that don't matter and can lead to uncomfortable "purity" test situations.
@Balladeer so you care about this guy's article because of their skin color? That's my issue with all of this. Nobody's skin color should matter.
@Crono1973 What's the 'political agenda' here? I don't see anything that could be described as political
@Mando44646 What's the 'political agenda' here? I don't see anything that could be described as political
You don't see identity politics as political?
@XenoShaun true, what's an interesting consideration is they likely have the player data to make these decisions. I still think in a case where the gender isn't important to the story they want to tell they should make it open for player choice.
@BloodNinja
By several, you mean 2 (including yourself).
It was very clear to me, the clarification offered perfectly matched my understanding. Because it was clear to begin with.
Just because many people profess to not understand something, does not mean that it cannot easily be understood. This can be seen recently with the amount of vaccine sceptics. You seem to often seek a comfort in numbers that is false on a number of levels.
@Crono1973 this article is about representation, which is an important topic. Its not a political issue - if it is, only because some people have politicized others' right to exist
@hillyarb It's a bit mixed. They go from mediterranean in the south to german-blonde-white in the north (past the mountains). In argentina it's also like that, long countries (from south to north) generally have different physiognomies.
@Mando44646 the push to make everything race conscious is political. In opposition to those that would rather race not be important. To be judged on merit and character rather than the color of our skin.
@TryToBeHopeful Pretty obvious - further representation of characters in video games isn't going to stop racial abuse from affecting the way people live.
@Crono1973 Here we go again folks. Appeantly wanting games (or media in general) to have more representation is bad because... it's "PoLiTiCaL". Ugh.
Also, with your logic that "identity politics are political". Isn't commenting against representation also "pOlItICaL" therefore bad?
@hillyarb
Moreover, someone merely stated that they found the greater representation in Mario Odyssey encouraging.
I think Japan in general are way behind the western world in terms of promoting equality and colour, I mean I've watched hundreds upon hundreds of anime and a fare share of Japanese horrors and the amount of coloured people I've seen I can count on one hand.
I've also been to Tokyo and akihabara and saw no posters or billboards or advertising that included anyone with dark skin, but there was a couple with white "westerners" on
@hillyarb Italians are now considered white, yes. Source: I am Italian in the US. That didn't use to be the case though. Why? Because race isn't skin color - its a cultural in/out group classification used by white supremacy. In the case of Italians and Irish, being Catholic meant not being white ~100 years ago in the US
@Mando44646 It's called Identity Politics for a reason.
@PessitheMystic It's not obvious to me, and it's not obvious that you have to choose which battle to fight.
@Crono1973 only by you and people like you. Representation isn't political
@Crono1973 Being of a particular skin colour and wanting to see yourself reflected to some degree in video games (and other media, while we're at it) isn't 'political'. It's a right that most straight, white men have become far too accustomed to having over the past few decades (myself included) and it's high time it changed.
If we're being reasonable here, japan-made characters don't look like japanese people either.
@dartmonkey ugh, leave the article up but just lock the comments section already. We all now how these discussions end by now.
@Franklin and I have no issue with that. I just find it strange that a background characters skin color has that impact on people.
@Mando44646 Identity politics, is a phrase that in itself tries to make existence political.
@Crono1973 you want to know what real political issues are? Economics, trade, war, foreign relations, social services, healthcare, cap and trade, climate issues. I could go on and on. Stop the BS lying
I just wonder when this site will do some articles on games for the mentally ill. A much more marginalized group than all the others I keep hearing about. Much more prejudice is held against them as well.
@Franklin You are far too quick to judge, and are making numerous “provocative” comments at other users. What is your intent? Because it’s not coming across as productive, at all, and you are focusing on trivializing the conversation.
@TryToBeHopeful
"Identity politics, is a phrase that in itself tries to make existence political."
Only by those who oppose it! I do not expect my identity to be politicized. Only jerks and bigots make it political in order to wage their petty culture wars
@Damo you have a right to other peoples art to be adjusted to your liking? Seems kind of odd.
I'm just waiting for the comments to blow up and it's already started.
@PoliticallyIncorrect Exactly. Plus, the mentally ill have a long history of being tortured by doctors. It would be a very meaningful and interesting aspect to represent in a game.
@hillyarb
I recall Jordan Peterson saying that the logical extension of intersectionality was individualism. There is something in that.
@BloodNinja
@Franklin is way above us. He has the generosity to make us see the light AND to remind us of how dumb and dishonnest we are in the process.
@Franklin I mean eventually that's where it has to go which is where those of us who don't care about skin tone already are.
@Tibob I am in awe of his blinding light, and must avert my gaze as an inferior being.
@Mando44646 not objectively, you're right there. But race and sexual orientation have been HEAVILY politicized in recent years. The problem with that is that, if you want someone to represent what you believe, that someone might have a very extremist position and that leads us to "weaponizing" race and sexual orientation, and that ends up creating tribalism.
It sucks and it shouldn't be that way. It's not what we say, we actually respect each other, but the higher ups (the ones making this political) make a war of hate out of this..
I don't get it. The skin colour should match whatever makes sense the area the game is representing to take place in.
Resident Evil 5 chose a setting in Africa. It was loaded with Africans. Finally people should be happy, right?... Right?.... Wrong! There's always someone complaining.
@BloodNinja Thank you for agreeing with me. I wasn't sure if I would get ganged up on for saying it. The mental health system here in the US has been practically dismantled by cutting funding. It's sad really.
@HamatoYoshi "Look at Street Fighter 2, Final Fights Poison is transgender etc etc."
You literally couldn't have picked two worse examples there. Dhalsim is wearing shrunken skulls as a necklace and Poison is one of the most cack-handed representations of a transgender person in the history of video games - and that's really saying something.
@dartmonkey Indeed, all comments are equal, it's just that some comments are more equal than others.
@TryToBeHopeful I don't really know why you're trying to provoke me. Also, literally don't know what you're talking about, so...
@hillyarb Yeah, I know what you mean... Mario isn't really supposed to be realistic in its diversity (or at all). But New Donk City is realistic and therefore Nintendo needed to deliver on representation. And thankfully they did.
Removed - unconstructive feedback
@hillyarb "you have a right to other peoples art to be adjusted to your liking? Seems kind of odd."
That isn't even remotely what is being suggested in this piece, so I'd highly recommend you read it again (or perhaps for the first time?) before posting any more comments.
@HamatoYoshi they were already hearing about BLM from their mother and everything happening in the news last year and didn't understand why other people were so against it. His decision to download that character showed that it actually struck a cord with him, it didn't take a video game to just think "oh hey black people are cool too."
@Damo ok, so you tell me how people should be represented in games? After that, give Capcom a call!
@BloodNinja
You haven't addressed anything I've said, and they are only provocative comments because you say so. And what one wonders, is wrong with provoking people's thoughts anyway?
I could easily accuse you of 'trivializing' the conversation, but that would be lazy.
If you wish to actually engage, let me know.
@WhiteUmbrella Ah another Animal Farm fan, nice to see someone who read that and actually understood the point.
@Damo not the piece, in your comment. You said everyone has a right to be represented visually in video games.
@PoliticallyIncorrect This site tends to lead people into to narrow thinking, for the sake of being open-minded. Problem is, whenever these “open-minded” articles pop up, many unenlightened thinkers jump in to troll anybody that remotely finds mental dissonance with the tone of the article. It can be a border-line echo chamber, and makes for some fascinating (as well as extremely dull) conversation, depending on what you get. You’re not crazy for disagreeing or pointing out something else that an article missed; just some of the commenters here are....opinionated but lack the information to back up the opinion.
@HamatoYoshi "ok, so you tell me how people should be represented in games?"
Games should be reflective of society.
@PoliticallyIncorrect @BloodNinja I would think an article like that could be more tricky to do, unless it was more so lambasting the many games that use mental health issues as a gimmick or some form of horror trope. Too many games use it in that manor, even the supposidly good represented games do (looking at Hellblade).
There must be some well represented games out there for the subject. I guess myself who suffers with varied issues it's tiresome seeing games get so much wrong in vein of a cheap gameplay mechanic, or horror setup. (Steam is riddled with the latter).
Maybe they should fix actual problems like lack of support for people with visual, auditive and cognitive impairment before trying to tackle politcal problems.
Not having a character with A/B/C color or X/Y/Z gender won't stop you from playing a game, not being able to differentiate colors, pinpoint via audio cues or even diferentiate some letters will.
@Crono1973
There is something in the idea that to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
But I think the writer of this article is quite reasonable in what they appreciate and hope for.
@hillyarb And you contest that?
Firstly, thank you for sharing your opinions with an interesting article.
I know I have previously fallen into the category of people who say “can’t you just play the game? Why does the character have to look like you if it’s a good game? It’s an escapist fantasy, I enjoy lots of games and I’m not a dinosaur/gorilla/squid/talking fox/inflatable pink ball” but have come to realise that it’s not necessarily about always seeing yourself in every game, but about having the option when it makes sense. I can appreciate the frustration that must come if a game allows for character creation, but your own image is excluded by omission.
I do think Nintendo have been somewhat slow on the journey though. It took 13 years before Animal Crossing games allowed you to select your skin colour, for example, and the original Pokémon games had just the 1 default character with no variability at all.
One thought I had was that Nintendo have always been adamant that Link doesn’t speak in the LoZ games, as he’s our avatar and they want us to imagine his dialogue as our own. I wonder if they will ever allow us to customise Link’s appearance (beyond the functional wardrobe changes in TFH/BOTW)? We’ve had a lot of chatter in recent years about a hypothetical female Link, by why not a POC Link?
@Franklin I don’t wish to actually engage, and am ignoring you, from this point onward. Stop challenging the user-base, pointlessly. Clearly, you’re looking for arguments and confrontation.
Removed - inappropriate; user is banned
@XenoShaun The lambasting would work too! I just want to see some representation for these poor people.
@nessisonett that's an interesting point about Japan, the ethnic breakdown is in stark contrast to Europe, the US and so on (I think 98% of people in Japan are Japanese) so I think it's a given that Nintendo may be slower to react to these things than developers in other parts of the world.
I live in rural England and it's a similar situation on a much smaller scale specifically where I live, 99% of people here are 'White British', so I've had to consciously expose my young son to different cultures as much as possible, I know his school does too as it would otherwise be very easy to assume everyone and everywhere are just like his little bubble of the world.
@Franklin I think many of us are just tired of it all. This is Nintendo Life, not the politics section of a news forum.
Western fans of a Japanese game company, show a level of international mindedness by liking Nintendo. Mario is an Italian plumber mascot for a Japanese company, which again shows great diversity. But I wonder why diversity of representation is a requirement? Large parts of Japan can be described as mono-cultural. I recall seeing a lot of signs up saying "no foreigners" when I visited Tokyo a couple of years ago. I was a foreigner, and I would probably have been a nuisance, with my lack of effort to learn their customs in my few days on holiday, so I don't blame them. Why should a Japanese company conform to a popular western ideology of politicizing skin? Are they not allowed to have a different cultural perspective? Isn't this also diversity, a diversity of perspectives?
@Damo why though? Games are about fantasy, escapism, detachment from reality.
All the subjects in the article are pushed down people’s throats on a daily basis, we don’t need them in video games.
@Mando44646 I'm agreeing with you.
Genuinely couldn't care less.
Color of skin, gender and even less sexual orientation are the last things that matter when it comes to fictional characters in my opinion.
Far too often do you end up with a completely underwritten, underdeveloped character, because the "inclusivity checklist" was all that mattered.
And this blatant tokenism is just disgusting.
But as long as trends like "Look, it's well established character X, now with inclusive traits Y and Z!" get applauded instead of demanding proper, original and well written content, i don't see things changing anytime soon.
@Crono1973
I'm curious to know how you define politics.
@hillyarb I get from where the "I don't care about color of the skin of the characters" comes from but... I mean... There are people that do care too and it's not like these arguments about representation are done without any reasoning.
Why? Because western media has been really bad at going outside the "normal" representation (look at the quotes on the word normal, I'm refeering to normal as what's considered normal by the media).
Like, going back to Nintendo, why it took until Animal Crossing New Horizons (or Happy Home Designer if you count spin offs) to get the option to have another skin colour outside of the "default"? Why in a game like Tomodachi Life you couldn't have gay couples?
And the thing is, people aren't allowed to point out stuff like that without being critized for being "pOlItIcAl" or from people like you that love to remind everyone how you don't care at all.
@LX_FENIX Lol, THIS
Funnily enough as inclusion goes I think even people who don't like people for whatever reason they feel are perfectly allowed to have an opinion too,. I just find it a shame that their opinions are shut down by the same people asking for inclusion.
But in reference to this journalism , I think it's just looking for clicks.
As for the importance some people place on representation, to me it just comes down to the question of stakes. For people who belong to a majority in their country (or specifically their legal/political framework) the way they are represented in the media is a low stakes affair. This is why it's seen as "okay", or at least less generally condemned, to make a joke or stereotype about Italian Americans (I'm speaking as one) in the U.S., because Italian Americans are treated almost identically by the justice system, the economy and on an individual level as the European ethnic groups that have long dominated economic and political life in America. The question of stakes can also explain why Indians living in India are less likely to object to a caricature like Apu (a trend often pointed to by Apu's defenders) - because for Indians living in a country where they are the political and economic majority, the stakes of an overseas portrayal are relatively low. That's not to say that stakes for Italian Americans/Indian nationals and others are non-existent, and it's certainly not to say that there aren't members of those groups who will be outraged by stereotypes. It's also not to say that stereotypes are fine in some instances and deplorable in others - it's just a way of explaining the trends in people's points of view and reactions.
So for a black person living in America, where sentencing for the same crimes are higher and where redlining policies continue to exist, not to mention the generational entrenchment of poverty resulting from past racism, the stakes of a stereotype in the media are much higher. That one millionth portrayal of a black man as a criminal may be in the back of the mind of the job interviewer you have an appointment with, or the banker you want a loan from. And those stakes are further raised by the LACK of portrayals in the media, which amplify negative portrayals and put tremendous, often impossible pressure on the positive ones.
In other words, the stakes for how someone is portrayed by the media will only decline when their political and economic vulnerability decline. I actually happen to think that eventuality is inevitable. We will reach a point, perhaps in our lifetimes, where systemic racism against currently marginalized groups will decline to the point that many of the stereotypes people condemn today will feel quaint and amusing, in the way that a racist portrayal of an Italian from the 1920s will make me laugh rather than angry. For those who are unhappy with the current "focus" on identity in media, the best thing they can do is accelerate the end of racial disparities in wealth, politics and law enforcement. Then the stakes for all will be equally low and the way identity is treated in the media will be simultaneously more irreverent, more nuanced and more realistic.
@CielloArc This should be a more compelling thing for game makers to focus on. Skin color is extremely trivial. Only fools judge each other’s behavior based on skin. Having more accessibility options should be at the top of the discussion.
Gamers need to be more understanding. No. People need to be more understanding.
@HamatoYoshi I guess you want to escape to a reality without people or colour? Like, is having them so bad for your immersion in videogames or something?
And having one article in a news site is "pushing arguments down people’s throats on a daily basis"? ONE article.
This just feels like, with all due respect, a waste of time. The more you talk on this promotion of skin color and force this notion of diversity of the most surface and basic ideas, not on diversity of ideas, you end up dividing people and making them even more territorial by the nature of human psychology. It feels forced and like another cookie cutter article articulating nothing new, nothing of substance, nothing that hasn't been already repeated somewhere else. You cite examples like "Vodka Drukenski" being offensive, but as someone with Russian ancestry that couldn't more wrong. I assume the phrase "lived experience" comes into play here but to be seen if a double standard occurs.
I would be willing to argue most people, as seen in this comments section, don't play games with their first thought being "I wonder if there will be a barebones surface level presentation of the most basic trait I have." We're generally going in wanting an enjoyable game to, ironically, take a break from real world affairs pertaining to such matters. You might scream at me to say I am not one of these people you mention, but you have no evidence I am not, no evidence to cite that I don't have my own "lived experience," and no real argument of which you've drawn your conclusion. I'll end off on a quote from one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th and 21st Century, Thomas Sowell: "The next time someone drones on about diversity, ask them about diversity of thought and how many republicans are in their sociology department."
I hope my comment doesn't get censored.
Why not just create a new site called Diversity Gamer or some such thing? Judging by the positive response in the comment section, there wouldn't be any shortage of readers on the site.
The reason this doesn't happen, I suspect, is because the people who write these pieces want those that disagree with the ideas contained therein to read this stuff much more than they want it to be read by those that welcome it. After all, who wants to preach to the converted? Bearing this in mind, an insistence on only positive and constructive comments is a little unrealistic. To begin the comments section with such a statement is not a great look.
To those claiming that articles focussing on identity politics have only been deemed political by those on the right, please take the time to google the term "identity politics", discover the origin of the term, and then come back once you have wiped the egg from your faces.
I'm a white male, and I have no interest in seeing those as the lead in the games, movies, TV shows, etc. that I consume, mostly because I'm tired of seeing them in leading roles all the time. Even when I was a kid, when it came time to choose my character in a game I always went for the lady or the robot (or rarely, the non-white beefy-male), because picking the non-boring-looking character was way more important than actual stats or whatever. So it makes me happy that the vast majority of games that I play these days don't force me to play as a beefy white man. It would probably be a different story if I were into more mainstream games.
@TheMadManSFX "You cite examples like "Vodka Drukenski" being offensive, but as someone with Russian ancestry that couldn't more wrong."
That isn't how it works.
Removed - trolling/baiting; user is banned
@Damo does it hurt you to know the fact that Poison & Dhalsim are fan favorites? They're loved by many, and also Dhalsim is an OG.
@TheMadManSFX If Thomas Sowell was a great thinker then he wouldn’t be a climate change denier.
@CielloArc : I have been saying that for years. Real inclusivity throughout the industry gets swept under the rug in favour of insignificant superficialities which, at worst, alienates majority demographics.
Nice article, good job.
'Now, I’m not going to claim Nintendo as some bastion of POC representation and I can’t ignore where it has previously gone wrong. Mr. Game & Watch using a Native American silhouette (before being swiftly removed) in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is perhaps the most recent example".
Though I believe this reaction was an exaggeration, since It was the character from the G&W title Fire Attack.
@BloodNinja
"I don’t wish to actually engage, and am ignoring you"
And the person that allegedly wants discussion, free ideas, shows their true colours.
And there is huge irony in the person that accuses others of being judgemental, in calling anyone they disagree with narrow minded and trolling.
I'm expressing views, not challenging needlessly. You are allegedly against uniformity of opinion and for freedom of speech.
I'm happy to engage civilly and meet half way, as I have with hillyarb.
@Einherjar Pointing out that there are bad people of colour characters or bad LGTB+ characters doesn't change anything here.
There are hundreds of badly written while straight characters too.
@BloodNinja And then, please don't conflate accessibility with difficulty. As someone who greatly benefits from visual acessibility options which are rare, this "Games need an easy mode" talk is highly condescending.
I want a level playing field, not getting pampered.
Man, I just want good games. Give me good games.
Removed - harassment; user is banned
@nessisonett Anyone that denies climate change is a (censored).
@jowe_gw there’s loads of people of colour and ethnicity in video games, always has been……and yes, the number of this type of article & LGBTQ articles are on the increase on this site.
@BoilerBroJoe There are white people serving prison sentences of 90-170 years. This argument that blacks are getting worse sentences for the same crimes falls flat extremely quickly if you look at actual crime studies, watch videos of trials and interrogations, and stop listening to the news. I’m speaking from a US and Canada perspective, which is where most of my research has come from.
@HamatoYoshi well now it's clear you're being a troll and you're not really interested in dialogue, enjoy your day
@BoilerBroJoe So for a black person living in America, where sentencing for the same crimes are higher and where redlining policies continue to exist, not to mention the generational entrenchment of poverty resulting from past racism, the stakes of a stereotype in the media are much higher.
The sentencing gap is much wider between men and women than it is for whites and blacks. Somehow though, you don't hear anyone talking about that because men are not one of the protected groups, women are. So much for the 'higher stakes' argument.
@Damo on behalf of my wife, I have to call you out on the phrase “cack-handed”, which originated as a derogatory term for left-handed people. She genuinely gets quite offended by it.
I agree with the point you were making, though.
@MsJubilee it was funny he pointed out those 2 particular examples in reply to my comment! He literally picked the worst 2 stereotypes. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Dhalsim or Poison.
@Einherjar No thanks. I’m not taking part in that disingenuous conversation. Having a difficulty slider isn’t going to ruin your “hardcore gaming edge.”
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I really don't care about a character's skin color, sexual orientation, or political views, specially in a videogame. But, highlighting that those are the only aspects that matter and the only thing that make them special, and should be given special treatment, that's ain't cool.
Can any of the people expending energy on commenting on how people's opinions on gender and racial inequity are invalid please give examples of the good work they are doing to improve humanity? Because from this vantage point it just looks like whining.
@BloodNinja Come on, my man. Really?
https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-differences-sentencing
@HamatoYoshi Nobody is contesting that video games offer an escape from reality, you're misunderstanding the topic here. Most video games feature human beings, and the moment you put a human being on-screen, you have the question of representation. It's unavoidable.
As I said before, straight white males don't see representation as an issue because 90% of video games over the past few decades have showcased straight white men in the lead roles.
Wanting better representation in video games isn't about fantasy or fun, it's just something that we perhaps take for granted (myself, at least, as a straight white male).
@Crono1973 I totally agree. One just need look at how much time female child molesters (teachers and such) get as opposed to men. Not that I support diddling children or anything. There's nothing more reprehensible imo. I just think the female offender is an equal threat, and thus should be treated accordingly.
@jowe_gw Yes, and? That's exactly my point.
Focus on good characters first and foremost.
Video games are fun.
That is all.
@BloodNinja
No-one disputes that there are white people serving sentences, it's the proportion of the population that matters.
You insinuate however that the data shows that there is no discrepancy.
In the spirit of learning, I would like to peruse the research you refer to.
I ask in peace.
@Damo No,they should not. They should be whatever the Devs want them to be. They should not conform to what other people want or think would "improve" a setting/game.
@Crono1973 No it’s not. Women have been given life sentences for their crimes, if the crime was heinous enough. Check out the Depolitto case, for example, good lord that’s one crazy woman. She attempted to have her husband killed by a hit man she paid off, and attempted to get her husband arrested, falsely, on numerous occasions. I believe she was given a maximum sentence, if I am remembering right.
My point, is that while the American justice system has its failings, it does have its successes.
@Damo ‘Poison is one of the most cack-handed representations of a transgender person in the history of video games - and that's really saying something’
Open your eyes man, look on the internet and you’ll find plenty of transgender people who look like poison. Your comment actually insults transgender people - can’t they look super attractive with great body’s?
I've noticed this too! Very cool! (Not even gonna attempt to read the other comments here)
@gaga64 My understanding is that the 'cack' means 'awkward'?
"According to Merriam-Webster and American Heritage, the cack in cack-handed comes from English dialect keck, meaning awkward, which in turn came from Old Norse keikr, meaning "bent backward.""
Nonetheless, this could be the British meaning of the word so I apologise to your wife!
@dew12333 An important thing to remember is the Paradox of Tolerance.
You think it's fair to hear the opinions of people who dont like people "for whatever reason", but that can only go so far if that opinion is dehumanizing, bigoted, etc.
The general idea is that hate (and ignorance) is never satisfied, so continued tolerance of it eventually leads to that hateful group chipping away at other's room or ability to speak and protest, if given the chance to do so. You have to draw the line somewhere.
@nessisonett haha he denies the climate how? Where? Or is he merely pointing out the data behind a lot of the panic.
Hope we keep always improving
@HamatoYoshi "Open your eyes man, look on the internet and you’ll find plenty of transgender people who look like poison. Your comment actually insults transgender people - can’t they look super attractive with great body’s?"
You might want to read up on why Poison was, and still is, a massively controversial character.
@TheMadManSFX You know about George Orwell, eh?
@hillyarb Literally just Google the man. He claims it was invented by intellectuals. Which is categorically false.
@TryToBeHopeful improving humanity ... one article on a videogaming website at a time?
@BloodNinja Disingenuous? Might want to elaborate?
I'm a massive Shmup fan, it just so happens that i can see badly.
Inclusivity would be to offer me options to lessen my handicap:
Color contrast, layer brightness adjustments etc.
I would find a difficulty slider so i would not have to deal with so many things i can't see insulting.
I want the same challenge as everyone else. I want to be included, not have my own kiddy pool.
If you ask me, inclusivity and difficulty should be two entirely different discussions.
@TheMadManSFX I don't get these. Why making one article pointing out people of colour existing in media and asking for that to continue makes people so "territorial" in the first place? Like... What? And how articles like these go against "diversity of ideas"? Because they highlight people of colour existing, that goes against "diversity of ideas"?
And it's true that people don't play videogames with representation of characters being the first thought but what of it? Are people not allowed to point out stuff like this at all? People should just have exactly the same "default" character all the time? And creators should just not use any other type of human representation?
Also, what the quote in the end has to do with anything here? Your comment just seem like a bunch of nothing.
@MsJubilee "does it hurt you to know the fact that Poison & Dhalsim are fan favorites? They're loved by many, and also Dhalsim is an OG"
The fact that straight white males love these characters doesn't automatically mean they're no longer offensive to transgender or Indian people, sadly.
I love it, it's great. the sheer number of options nintendo has given players, specifically in animal crossing and splatoon, to ensure there is representation is pretty cool. considering that nintendo for years has been in many instances pretty insensitive with this stuff. get these same options in a mario or zelda game and we'd really be getting somewhere
@WhiteUmbrella Maybe I'm wrong, and the complaining is just good nature debate, and not privileged whining, but when I hear people from minority groups talk about negative experiences, I empathise with them, I don't complain how something that has no negative effect on anything is woke posturing.
@PoliticallyIncorrect Females get just as harsh sentences if it matches their crimes, as men do. I’ve seen numerous court videos of judges being merciful to men. I’ve also seen trials where men commit the most atrocious murder, and they get off because they happened to have an amazing attorney. There are way too many variables that can occur in a court case to boil it down to simple gender!
@HamatoYoshi which I clarified in a response above, that it was a sign that the kid cared, not the reason he cared.
And reading the rest of your comments replying to others, it's clear you don't care about other people getting representation they want because YOU want to live in a fantasy land and gaming is all about YOUR needs. Folks can live in a fantasy land and still see some semblance of themselves.
Maybe, maybe not a troll, but I'm still not impressed.
@hillyarb "I just don't understand what is wrong with Mario the way it is? I don't see anyone living in Wakanda outside of Wakandas and nobody has an issue with that."
That is possibly the worst example you could have drummed up. Assuming you're going off of the MCU movie, you didn't see foreigners in Wakanda because they had a giant secret to protect that had global, history-altering implications if the word got out. The country kind of had to stay homogeneous - until the end of the movie.
Where are the similar examples in Hyrule or the Mushroom Kingdom?
@HamatoYoshi I can remember like two articles about "this" recently. One for LGTB+ games and this one (which isn't even about LGTB).
Also the "there’s loads of people of colour and ethnicity in video games, always has been" is not true at all. Why did we have cases like Animal Crossing not having the option to have different colour skin than white until Happy Home Designer if this was never an issue?
@BloodNinja @Einherjar I think the argument here is that with a difficulty slider you personally still have the choice to not use it.
It likely is contrasting back to the whole Dark Souls easy mode idea. Easy mode can make the games more accessible to some people, but that doesn't change what the 'normal' or 'hard' modes could offer.
All on all, why can't we have both easy slider and correctional options for colours etc.
@Damo "The fact that straight white males love these characters doesn't automatically mean they're no longer offensive to transgender or Indian people, sadly."
Not trying to fan any fires here, but are they though?
In all those years, i've only heard adoration form both characters from all sorts of different people.
@Damo you’re right, but it was also used as a derogatory term for lefties, back in the days when, for example, Victorian lefty children would practically be tortured into writing right-handedly.
The way some left-handed people have to awkwardly curl their whole arm around to hold a fountain pen without smudging, it’s easy to see how the 2 terms got conflated.
Sorry for going off on an entirely tangential topic.
@Crono1973 Not all stakes are the same for every group. You're absolutely right about sentencing disparities between men and women. And when is the last time you heard a feminist complain that too many women are being portrayed as criminals? The stakes for women aren't in law enforcement, they are in other aspects of society. And to your point, I absolutely agree that the stakes are higher for how men are portrayed in the media with regards to violence. I think the constant association of masculinity with violence is a big problem.
@gaga64 Hey, it's fine - and I'll certainly be more mindful of using that expression in the future!
@Einherjar It’s a slider. You can select it. It’s a choice to play difficult or easy. Therefore, there’s no reason NOT to include it, barring development time. Even Dark Souls, touted for its difficulty, has an easy mode: the +15 weapons, pyromancer, and sorcerers trivialize the game. They might as well have just included a damage slider. You can one-shot the final boss with the Dark Bead set up.
I have been stabbed in my right eye, twice, and had 5 eye surgeries in numerous attempts to fix the damage. The eye is extremely photo-sensitive to bright lights, yet to this day, devs still put flashing, white lights in their games with no way to turn it off.
The other thing that this seems to impact, is my brains ability to translate speed, in terms of hand/eye coordination. So if I’m playing Axelay, I AM GLAD to be able to choose easy so I can enjoy the game. It’s not a kiddy pool. Just play the game how you like, and don’t put up a wall if someone wants a less strict difficulty.
If we are on this subject, yet again, what about NintendoLife? Not exactly a diverse bunch are you? Where is the representation in your staff?
@Einherjar
Only for a minority who doesn't play Street Fighter.
@Tibob
The only person setting themselves up on a pedestal here, is BloodNinja.
And when they can't argue against what someone says, they call them names and then proudly exclaim that they are ignoring them.
I've tried to engage, they won't.
I've asked for the research they refer to, they don't provide it.
NINJA DISAPPROVED
@BloodNinja One of my hobbies is researching serial killers, violent crime, and sexual crime. The books I've read, written specifically for law enforcement and psychologists, have stated it is indeed a problem. Kathryn Ramsay has a book where she states that as well. Not to mention the cases I have seen myself. If things have changed, I'm unaware of it.Mind you, I'm not talking about murder and such. Just the molestation.
@Einherjar My point i that you can have good and bad characters period, no matter if they are people of colour or not.
Using the "people of colour characters are bad because are done with inclusivity in mind and nothing else" is not exactly fair because having a badly written character designed to only check boxes is not something that every people of colour character has to be (and it's something that happens with characters that are not people of colour).
Basically, if I say "there are few characters that are people of colour, there should be more", I'm not saying those characters have to be badly written.
I've loved the representation in games like ARMS, Splatoon 1 & 2, the newest Animal Crossing, New Donk City, Fire Emblem and Pokémon since gen 5.
@XenoShaun @BloodNinja
"Why can't we have both"
That is exactly the point. I don't care about difficulty settings because, as you said, they are optional and there is seldom a situation where they are not a good idea.
But they don't put me on an equal playing field either, they don't make the experience "inclusive".
But they are often the only thing that is talked about when it comes to inclusivity...and it's not helping at all.
And that is all i was saying: Don't conflate the two.
Having difficulty options should be its own topic.
Because if difficulty = inclusivity and you don't want a difficulty option for whatever reason...then inclusivity just falls of the table most of the time.
@BloodNinja
My cousin lost 2 fingers in his hand due to a saw accident.
He often complains how most games outside PC don't offer a key rebinding option, you can only change control schemes.
@TryToBeHopeful Why not? If someone else can cite a similar example as their "lived experience" and claim it to be offensive and hurtful, why can I not appreciate a silly stereotype of people I come from? That's my "lived experience" and I'd be willing to wager there were plenty of Native Americans who found little to no harm in Mr. Game and Watch or even in the names of the RedSkins/Indians, yet all those things got changed and cited as "harmful and offensive?"
@PoliticallyIncorrect Books can be written with a bias or a slant, and it’s very difficult for a book or a study to capture the big picture. Statistical data gets misused all the time. I study those same things, from a variety of sources, and along with actual video proof I seem to notice that the justice system has flaws, and most of the time it gets things right.
@Lordplops Are you actually trying to use "whataboutism" in this case? That doesnt come off as entirely in good faith...
@CielloArc Heck, I have all my fingers and curse out loud when a game doesn’t have custom mapping. It’s annoying when it’s not there and should be a standard feature, especially for amputees.
@jowe_gw
> Why making one article pointing out people of colour existing in media and asking for that to continue makes people so "territorial" in the first place?
Because we all already do and trying to force it in such a manner only makes the problem people force to exist even worse.
> "And how articles like these go against "diversity of ideas"? Because they highlight people of colour existing, that goes against "diversity of ideas"?"
You're not saying anything that hasn't already been said and explored to death. The only idea here is one of racial division for the sake of some convoluted notion.
>" what the quote in the end has to do with anything here?"
Sowell has taken a lifelong belief that any notion of political correctness and diversity is a load of nonsense and argues it's not a call for more of anything but just propping up the people discussed here as just tokens to be displayed for the sake of it, something the author himself argues.
@BoilerBroJoe I think the constant association of masculinity with violence is a big problem.
As well as the portrayal of men as incompentant, lazy and stupid. These are things that society choose NOT to care about. You won't see articles on a video game website about better representation for men.
@Einherjar Unless you are competing in a tournament or an online match, you don’t need an equal playing field. It’s just you and the game, otherwise.
@TryToBeHopeful Animal Farm is bloodly brilliant. Gotten through a good chunk of "1984" and need to read some of his other work. As a child of the motherland however, Animal Farm was a priority read for me.
@Crono1973 100% true, nailed it.
if a game want to focus in people of color or other disabilites, they need to create brand new original characters not change character for 30 years to fit this kinda of agenda, this representation need to be done right to not feel forced.
@Mando44646 I don't think there's an agenda here, but talking about these issues in this way is definitely agenda-adjacent. All of this language comes from CRT and academia — which does have a political agenda (for better and worse) — and is being mainstreamed by outlets like this.
My biggest issue with this way of talking personally is how it gaslights all the progress that has been made already, as if this generation discovered racism and was the first to address it. I also find the conversations around Japanese developers as very tone-deaf. Arguing that they should serve Western markets based on Western principles is tantamount to economic colonialism.
Big shout out to the writer for mentioning Dandara. I think it's among the best examples of true diversity — our goal should to support and empower diverse creators and leverage our global markets and technology. Demanding Western devs like Ubisoft meet intersectional quotas does not get you wonderful and truly diverse games like Dandara, Raji, and Chinese Parents.
I do want to call out the writer calling the old Punch Out! game problematic. It's easy to look back and say they were using negative stereotypes — or, more accurately, saying that they were negative representations because they were stereotypes.
We loved those characters. Balrog/M. Bison is a great example of a character who may have started as a joke/parody character, but yet here we are 30 years later and the character is a beloved mainstay of the series. He lasted. He also begot a fighting game archetype and paved the way for the DeeJay (a Caribbean fighter), and the objectively best black character in gaming history, possibly in all of fiction, Dudley.
To say they are problematic is to say we are wrong for loving those characters, and that doesn't sit well with me. Especially in context of the FGC, which has the most diversity in gaming on both sides of the controller.
@Einherjar yep! Think Damo just made that up!
@TheMadManSFX You can think whatever you like, I'm a quarter Italian and I'm not bothered by Mario's depiction (although it is a little laughable), I personally really don't like adverts for italian themed products with hilarious jokes about how everyone's in the mafia (especially when it's made by an American company in Ireland). But it doesn't affect me that much. And it's not that bad a a stereotype. I can see why having your nationality denigrated as a group of habitual drunkards might be offensive to some (if not to you) or why yet another stereotype about native americans that don't look you, but do like to go to war a lot, might be exasperating.
@BloodNinja I always bear bias in mind and try to purchase resources that are as close to non-biased as one can possibly expect. Nothing is completely non-biased though. On a side note, you have to admit, it's an exciting hobby. Glad you enjoy it as well.
@nessisonett That's completely irrelevant to the point, first of all. If you've ever read or watched Sowell, it's blatantly hard to deny his obsession to facts and reasoning, and he makes strong cases for his studies on economics and race relations. I'm not denying climate change, but if Sowell gave a critique on the matter, he likely had damn good reason to do so. He spends his whole life challenging the status quo, I'd wager if he did it this time again he had sources and reasoning to back himself up.
@TheMadManSFX If he was obsessed with facts and reasoning then he wouldn’t say that climate change was made up by academics.
@TheMadManSFX I was being a bit snarky. They are both great books, but Orwell was a democratic socialist who fought for the communists in the spanish civil war. He wouldn't be an opponent of progressive opinions.
@DTFaux Provided the comments come from their own feelings towards that subject then yes of course. I would not suggest that people should use that opinion against others, but holding that view should not be cancelled otherwise neither side are better than each other. there is no such thing as the think police.
And I really do not like that last paragraph it sounds so wrong and for so many reasons, kind of like a general taking his troops in battle against those nasty people.
@HamatoYoshi @Einherjar
"In early developments of Street Fighter X Tekken, footage was shown of Ryu and Chun-Li's win quotes to Poison (i.e. "Your looks really can be deceiving. I'll be careful not to fall into your trap" and "You're not very lady-like at all! I felt like I was fighting against a guy..." respectively). Other characters were later revealed to have quotes along the same lines, some even worse, including Kuma outright saying Poison smells like a man and doubting she's in any way a woman. Sometime after the footage was shown, a prominent LGBT rights group contacted Capcom about the dialogue, stating that it was highly offensive, ignorant and insensitive towards trans individuals. Capcom agreed to change the quotes, leaving only Yoshimitsu's remark about her being a "freshly-recruited kunoichi", Craig Marduk's more vague comment that he doesn't sweat the small stuff and only cares that she's attractive, and Poison's mirror match quote where she tries to recall a song, "The something-or-other in the mirror", referencing Michael Jackson's "Man in the Mirror.""
Source: https://streetfighter.fandom.com/wiki/Poison
Regards to Dhalsim, I was listening to Retronauts just the other day and Shivam Bhatt (who is of Indian descent) stated that although he thought the character was cool as a kid, the fact that he had shrunken skulls around his neck is offensive to Indian people.
SF2 is actually packed with cultural stereotypes so it's evenhanded in that respect, at least.
@jowe_gw
"people of colour characters are bad because are done with inclusivity in mind and nothing else"
But that wasn't the argument.
The argument was, as you say yourself, that these characters can end up just as badly written as any other character as well.
The thing is, this "But at least the character was X, Y and Z" mentality doesn't necessarily create the "pressure" of doing better. This hyper-focused attention on these traits often lead to applauding characters just for these traits, completely ignoring blatant shortcomings.
It leads to these characters always being judged by completely different metrics.
"Yeah, they might be X, but at least they are Y".
To put it slightly hyperbolic:
In my opinion, these traits should not be used as shield to hide poor effort behind.
A bad character is a bad character, and that is all that should be judged.
I completely stand behind the message here, i just want it to happen organically and on a universally level playing field ^^
@BloodNinja I appreciate your sentiment, but when you’re someone whose skin colour is something that is used to assault, abuse and discriminate against you, to the point of people like you being more likely to be killed by the police, then I think you might find skin colour to be a less trivial factor in your identity. We can believe that skin colour shouldn’t be a factor in identity, but that doesn’t mean ignoring that it very much is.
@Lordplops
"I'm not talking to you, and so I don't really care what you think."
And that's the level of discourse we have.
All these people who say representation doesn’t and shouldn’t matter are white y’all (maybe straight males too)… regardless, I should say that they don’t think representation has an impact because they see (and saw) themselves in every media product, all the time. Not only Nintendo but other companies too are putting in the work and I’m grateful idc if it’s because of selfish reasons, we still get representation.
In terms of earlier appearances, I think Dion Blaster from 1080° Snowboarding needs to be acknowledged. To my knowledge he was the first "realistic" (not cartoon) Black character playable in a Nintendo game. An article about him and Black characters in the 1080° and Wave Race series in general can be found here: https://spielkritik.com/2017/09/15/black-characters-in-games-folge-2-dion-blaster-in-1080-snowboarding/ (It's in German, but you can use Google Translate.)
Also the Black US-President(!) from Perfect Dark is worth mentioning. If you want to count that as a "Nintendo" game.
@Crono1973 "You won't see articles on a video game website about better representation for men"
That's because most video games feature male characters in positions of power.
@Franklin
You guys are taking this thing way too seriously. This is a Nintendo website, calm down.
@Franklin It's kind of amazing.
@Tibob
After you've given your opinion.
How convenient.
When you said: "Franklin is way above us"
Was that you taking things too seriously? Of course it wasn't. You're special.
This is a Nintendo website! Did you focus on the Nintendo with that comment? No.
Enough of the self-indulgent wank then please.
If you want a depressing read, check out this list of Black/African Nintendo characters:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77880191
As much as I love Nintendo, they really made a MASSIVE mistake by picking Min-min over Twintelle for Smash.
@BloodNinja
"Unless you are competing in a tournament or an online match, you don’t need an equal playing field. It’s just you and the game, otherwise."
I completely disagree with this sentiment.
I want to be able to face and overcome the exact same challenges as everyone else, regardless of what difficulty mode is offered and picked.
Offering me the easiest difficulty doesn't compensate me being potentially unable to play the game... Battle Garegga, a pretty famous Shmup comes to mind. Can't play it due to poor color contrast, even on its lowest settings, because i simply can't see things.
And that is not "just me and the game".
It's me not been given a fighting chance, and difficulty had nothing to do with it at this point.
@Damo “Games should be reflective of society.”
What a terrible idea. I’m sorry, but have you seen our society. Do you want games to have racists in them? Because that would reflect our society (not saying that everyone is a racist). That thinking also essentially says “no” to creativity. Games are an escape and don’t need to reflect society. That’s a narrow minded thinking.
I can’t believe the term People Of Color has lasted so long as acceptable terminology. It’s way too close to colored people.
@Tomasmeza All these people who say representation doesn’t and shouldn’t matter are white y’all (maybe straight males too)
...and there it is. The anti-white, anti-straight and anti-male nonsense that we have come to expect from the woke crowd. People disagree with you, well they must be the wrong race, sex/gender and sexual preference.
This is the real bigotry and this is why people are tired of articles like this.
@nessisonett You're strawmanning Thomas Sowell's argument. His call out of the academic and political grift of "Climate Change TM" in the book 'Intellectuals & Society' is spot on — regardless of what you think of actual global warming science. I disagree with most of what Sowell says, but he's a powerhouse thinker and if you disagree with him you still have to grapple with his ideas — you shouldn't dismiss him out of hand.
@Franklin
What's my opinion ? I never gave my opinion. I tried to comment, and was censored.
Just chill, dude ! What are you trying to achieve here ?
(Here = a Nintendo website, again)
@Einherjar Then play on hard mode, when it's offered. Your argument is falling flat, because you are NOT in a position where you are forced to be on a level playing field. Competitive environments are the only places that REQUIRE it. The rest is just bragging rights.
@TryToBeHopeful Even he admitted only he was based on how he viewed it. He wasn't a dumb man and if he saw how after so many tries it wouldn't have worked, I'd wager he wouldn't have put himself under that label.
@Crono1973 I’m not anti anything, I’m just saying that you are privileged to have had representation like that and you don’t agree because you feel threatened 😁
@Franklin I'm simply exercising my right to not engage with certain people, which is why this will be the only reply you will ever receive from me.
@Damo You don't see many articles about better representation for men in media anywhere because men aren't a protected class like women are. It's all about what the popular narrative is, it's just never pro-male.
@nessisonett You haven't even touched the actual point I originally made and now you're going into semantics based on your own biased views.
@Eddy9000 I've taught self defense for 15 years, and I am fully aware of the problem we ALL face in that regard. I'm not speaking in that context, though, trying to stay on topic with the weakly-written article, and failing miserably
@TheMadManSFX The subject of offensive Native American caricatures in media deserves its own article and discussion itself. The problem with asking or trying to survey people who identify as NA is that just about anyone can claim to be, and because we all come from different walks of life and should treat everyone's opinions and lived experiences as valid, it's a lot easier to find people who can claim NA ancestry yet still identify as another race (like me) or grew up in surroundings that didn't give them any sort of attachments to their heritage (also like me). This causes their voices, opinions and votes to often drown out those that have no other identity or culture to turn to.
This old bit from The Daily Show gets the point across nicely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loK2DRBnk24
Let's take the framing away from First Nations people and use a much bigger minority group, the LGBTQ+. Remember/Ever heard of Ash from Streets of Rage 3? If not, please look do a Google/YouTube search to see what I mean. Ash came about as someone's horribly limited understanding and view of a queer person in the early 90s. Sadly, that's how a lot of people viewed the queer community in the 90s, and Ash only served to perpetuate stereotypes through an offensive caricature. Imagine if fictional caricatures like Ash and Poison were the largest representation that the LTBTQ+ people had to go on today, and society at large told them that they should be satisfied with it?
Ugh, here we go...
@PoliticallyIncorrect It is! I'm happy to have met someone else that shares it! It's quite fascinating, to be sure.
@XenoShaun Agreed completely. The "why not both?" meme should be inserted, here LOL
Removed - unconstructive
Engagement must be down recently. That's the only reson I can think of to stir the pot this much so close together. 😉
I'm kidding, of course.
I am disappointed that simply acknowledging the LGBTQ+ community, women, and POC in any capacity is declared as "political". Some people are so obtuse that they honestly think anyone not a "straight, white male" is pushing some kind of agenda. We simply want to exist without society being against us. Ironically, the "straight, white males" of society that permeate politics are the ones pushing an agenda. That agenda just so happens to be anti-women, anti-POC, and anti-LGBTQ+. If you defend those ideals, that makes you part of the problem. Everyone knows its "not all white people" that are problematic, but it's usually those problematic people who say "not all white people" (This group is similar the "not all men" crowd). You know the ones that say BLM is a hate group and defend the police shootings of unarmed black people. The "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter" crowds are notorious for that level of hatred. I swear some of my fellow Americans on this site are troubling people.
@BloodNinja I still can't play the game at that point though...
Where is it bragging rights to ask for a fighting chance?
Difficulty modes don't alleviate handicaps.
But alleviating handicaps can allow any person to face challenges on equal terms.
Is this really such a difficult topic?
Difficulty =! Accessibility.
If something that could be easily changed is preventing me from playing the game like everyone else, even a baby mode won't make that more inclusive.
@Tomasmeza I’m not anti anything, I’m just saying that you are privileged to have had representation like that and you don’t agree because you feel threatened 😁
When you invalidate someone's opinion because of their race, sexual preference and/or sex/gender.....well what you call it if not bigotry?
@Tibob
Your opinion seems to be that I was sanctimonious for merely stating my opinion (or "way above us")
Now you've been called out, it's 'but, but, Nintendo'.
Regards your censored comment, I don't know what it was.
Have a good day.
@gaga64 you should call Victorian schools to issue an apology. And, this is a joke, by the way. My best friend is a lefty, as well as my sister, and both make jokes about how bad is my writing. I should ask them to issue an apology to me as well?
@eaglebob345 I am in no way saying this applies to you, and just sharing a thought that your post inspired in my mind. The more you engage with surface-level identity, the more you will be impacted by everyone's political agenda. The way you see yourself is far more important than how others choose to see you, the latter of which tends to be heavily biased. I meet people every day that have their mind made up about me because I have a (mostly) shaved head and have tattoos. The key to countering this sort of false judgement does NOT lie in how well represented a particular person is in a video game. (In fact, people that look like me are often bad guys in games and media, heh!) It lies in our daily actions towards one another. Keep attempting to treat people well, and avoid those who act negatively towards you as much as humanly possible. We are so much more than our appearances!
@Tomasmeza That's not a fair argument. The fact that the Western media default has been historically straight, white, and male does not mean that straight white people have ever felt represented as such. Almost by definition, representation is a minority position, and being the "default" is, by definition, a non-representative position. It's a placeholder value.
I'm not saying that representation isn't an issue, and I think it's weird for people to be against it wholesale, but you're not asking for something that someone else already has. Meet people where they are.
More games from different cultures is way more interesting way of naturally include more colors into the gaming world. Otherwise this tends to focus on including more "black" Afro-Americans, even though they are a very, very small percentage of POC. Raji is an great example, here you focus on a culture and people rarely seen in games even though India is one of the worlds most populated countries. More of that!
In the end the developers them self must decide what fits there audience and purpose.
❗Maybe XenoShaun would be happier of the n-word was included, y'know, for "artistic" reasons 🤦🏼♀️
@Crono1973 In my experience, the world is predominantly pro-male. Perhaps you've just become numb to it?
@BloodNinja
"The more you engage with surface-level identity, the more you will be impacted by everyone's political agenda. The way you see yourself is far more important than how others see you, that latter of which tends to be heavily biased."
I think this a very laudable sentiment, and there's much to it.
But I think we need to deal with how the world is, not how we want it to be, and we need to deal with the fact that appearances are important for many people.
Though I accept that does open itself up to wider philosophical questions.
@BloodNinja We are so much more than our appearances!
Quoted for truth!
Being someone who's of Jamaican descent (American raised), I cant recall any piece of media I hated due to a lack of black characters... but I can sure tell folks of the times my experience of an already good time was elevated when seeing good faith representation/inclusion.
If video games are about "escapism", then this topic shouldnt be bothering certain folks as much as it does, IMO.
@Franklin
You did express contempt towards people in this thread, mind you. (hence the animosity that several people expressed)
I have no problem with people discussing non-Nintendo stuff, just your asking for "studies with figures proving one's point" is ridiculous. Let's keep it light and entertaining, the place for heavy politic statements and debates might not be between a Pokemon walkthrough and a Zelda review.
@Damo That's an extremely dangerous and unverifiable claim. You will be able to find pro-anything and favoritism on all fronts across various instances; that is not a male exclusive.
Problems males face are taken with far less seriousness than problems that females face. Look no further than sexual harassment crimes against adult male victims, for examples. I'm legitimately surprised that you have that perception of the world.
@bobzbulder "That thinking also essentially says “no” to creativity"
How is it more 'creative' to have games filled with straight, white men?
@Crono1973 I hope others are able to hear the message, and more importantly, live it! Thank you.
@Dinh “No,they should not. They should be whatever the Devs want them to be. They should not conform to what other people want or think would "improve" a setting/game.”
@Spiders “our goal should to support and empower diverse creators and leverage our global markets and technology”
Came here to say, it seems like the underlying/root cause of the problem is (may be?) the lack of diversity in the developers. If we want to see more diversity in games, how do we promote diversity in the teams creating them?
@bobzbulder
I think you’re making a disingenuous interpretation of that statement, and I’m not sure how pursuing inclusion would limit creativity. I doubt that every creator in the world will be given a blanket directive and checklist to include x, y, and z, but clearly there’s a public desire for better representation in media, based on this article and others, and the ongoing public discourse. Also, games, along with many other types of media, can be more than escapism, and working within the narrow definition of “games as escapism” presents an interesting question/dilemma —basically, video games are escapism for whom? Everyone? And is that all they are?
@Damo In my experience, the world is predominantly pro-male. Perhaps you've just become numb to it?
It's not. The world is all about advancing women in any way they can. As a result men are represented poorly in the media and blamed for all of societies problems. Boys fall behind in schools and no one cares. Government programs for women are everywhere, barely existing for men. Ever been to a mens shelter? Ever been to family court?
What world are you living in?
@BloodNinja "That's an extremely dangerous and unverifiable claim"
As are the claims you're making; you don't seem to be able to see that.
@Damo What does that mean though... pro-male? The discourse around maleness, masculinity and gender has been very anti-male for quite some time now. Not to say any of it is or is not legitimate, but I don't see exactly what can be called "predominantly pro-male" honestly.
@Crono1973 How do you explain the pay gap between men and women, then? Or the fact that most of the global positions of power are held by men?
@Spiders sorry for the (mis)definition but my point is explained later, the media had been white for a while (even whitewashing stories, just watch old movies/shows) and people get mad at it, now the media is politically correct (most of the time) for whatever reason (mostly money) but still it’s a good thing
@Damo Some of the most creative games feature characters that are presumably white and straight.
All Mario games: two white male leads, white female princess.
All Zelda games: white male lead, white female princess.
Metroid: white female lead.
And on, and on. And these are games that are beloved by the fan base.
Again, I'm legitimately surprised that you put so much effort into the trivial, surface area knowledge of skin and gender.
@Damo I mean...fair enough?
The Tekken X SF example is indeed quite troubling, but they apparently also listened to corrections and suggestions.
And it's a single instance in the characters and meta-series history.
Some devs on that particular project being clowns doesn't really change the fact that the community is holding the character in high regard.
And wasn't that the point here?
As for Dhalsim, i still fail to see how the shrunken heads are offensive to Indian people.
Or better, i fail to see how this aspect of his design even relates to his origin.
Wouldn't this line of thinking also lead to Blanka being offensive to Brazilians because he's designed malformed and brutish?
Again, i'm not trying to start a heated debate here. This is not meant as some "gotcha" take or anything.
But Street Fighter 2 (and the entire Meta-Series really) is one of these instances where its entire cast of characters seems to be universally loved and adored, and all of them are stereotypes in some regard.
Like i said, it's anecdotal, but in it's 30 years of existence, i personally haven't heard anyone ever complaining about any SF character.
Quite the contrary in fact. Couple of Turkish friends celebrated SF IV's Hakan and his characteristics could be considered offensive as well.
@Tibob
What contempt is this? I felt it was obvious what the original comment meant, and expressed such.
Apparently calling others narrow minded and trolls is ok though.
Let's be absolutely clear; someone cited research they had done, I then asked to see it, in good faith.
If you have an issue with that being too heavy or ridiculous, take it up with the person that cited the research to begin with.
@Crono1973 Maybe because men ran the world for a long time? Lol acknowledge your privilege
@Damo My claims are well-studied and well-researched. You're speaking purely from anecdote. Again, I'm entirely surprised at such an intolerant view; that the world is "pro-male." That's absolute hog-wash, and you should be ashamed for using your platform to push that narrative. What is your purpose? To make men feel guilty for something they did not choose about themselves?
@Tomasmeza Without women, we would all be dead. Yet men are running the world? Seems like a team effort, to me.
@Damo The pay gap is a myth long since debunked. Most prisoners and homeless people are also men. How do you explain that?
@Edu23XWiiU I generally live my life on the basic premise that everyone needs to apologise to everyone else for everything. It saves time to start every conversation with a Sorry.
I'm always suspicious of people who criticize this as "pandering." It just seems they have a problem with representation itself but don't want to say that (or don't even know it themselves) and so find a more palatable thing to complain about. But pandering is an issue with these giant corporations and the issue is complex.
For example: increased representation is welcome, but a giant corporation being more representative and touting that representation is suspicious. Are they doing it for PR? How can we tell if they are sincere or not? But I suppose you could see it as a good thing that representation is profitable, i.e. society is progressing in the right direction and even if they aren't sincere corporations see it as necessary and that builds on increased representation.
@BloodNinja Can you point me towards the research which proves your claims, please? Genuinely interested.
@Damo
If you are paying that much attention to a character skin color then you aren't playing the game, let alone enjoying it to see how creative it can be.
I mean, a game don't even need a human character to be creative in the first place. Pong, Pac-Man, Space Invaders and Galaga are good examples of that.
NintendoLife cares about virtue signaling nonsense.
Nintendo thankfully does not.
Nintendo needs to keep being Nintendo and ignore the vitrue signaling that certain groups are pushing.
There is a ton of diversity in Nintendo 1st party games already. Different races different genders.
Also look at the characters in Nintendo games.
Humans, foxes, squids, octopuses, turtle monsers (bowser), dinosaurs, whatever thing Birdo is, walking mushrooms (toads), pikmin, the entire zoo of animals in Animal Crossing, etc etc.
Tons of diversity.
This is just a small portion of the comunity ignoring the diversity that already exists because it does not fit their discriminatory narative.
This whole article reeks of discrimination. It totally ignores all the diversity that does exist in Nintendo games.
@Crono1973 "The pay gap is a myth long since debunked"
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Gender_pay_gap_statistics
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/25/gender-pay-gap-facts/
@Tomasmeza Lol acknowledge your privilege
You have got to be kidding me. This is exactly the kind of crap I am talking about. You assume I am male and then invalidate my argument.
@BloodNinja study history maybe?
Funny that in the time it took me to read the article and write a reply, the conversation here is now about the pay gap? I don't know how ya'll got there but I should have expected it lol.
@PoliticallyIncorrect
It's a fair point you make... many people with poor mental health would have boosted confidence and emotions from seeing that game developers not only acknowledge them but show that they can be still strong and powerful people regardless of their mental state. I hope NL makes a feature showing games that feature this group of society in prominent roles.
@Damo That would take a few years, and you're more than capable of doing that learning on your own time, sir.
I see the creepy Incels and the Hitlerjugend are both out in force again today.
@Einherjar "Wouldn't this line of thinking also lead to Blanka being offensive to Brazilians because he's designed malformed and brutish?"
Exactly.
"Couple of Turkish friends celebrated SF IV's Hakan and his characteristics could be considered offensive as well."
What is offensive about that character, though? He's wearing traditional Turkish dress, that's all. Capcom has moved with the times when it comes to character design.
@Franklin
Are you being deliberately obtuse ?
I believe you're intelligent enough to understand what contempt is.
You're behaving like vaccine sceptics. You seem to often seek comfort in numbers that is false on a number of levels.
@BloodNinja Exactly, the 'research' you mention simply doesn't exist.
@Crono1973 Lol I didn’t even say this, it was damo and they’re right 😁
Roman emperor:
Without slaves, we wouldn't be able to live as we do. Yet slave masters are running the world? Seems like a team effort, to me.
@Lordplops If you dont care what I think, surely you wouldnt have a problem being transparent about your intent, right?
@Damo You can't disregard things because you choose not to search for them yourself. I mean, you want a picture of my bookshelf, or something? The thousands of hours of news, articles, classes, etc? You're asking for something unreasonable. If your argument was solid you would do research on both sides of the coin. Instead, you claim that because I'm not giving you a google link that what I'm saying does not exist. Hogwash.
@Damo I can post links too. In this case, I will just link to the Google search and you can choose your source.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pay+gap+debunked&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS944US944&oq=&aqs=chrome.0.35i39i362l8...8.563953557j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
@Damo The pay gap between men and women can be explained by job selection. Women dominate in service industries that rely on tips. Global power positions can be explained by this too. Women who have or want children have a harder career path. The health care industry is dominated by women, just like STEM is dominated by men.
@Pirate1 I think it's happening right now, and maybe not at the speed that people who take issue with it would like. The technology to develop games is becoming cheaper and more accessible, as are the means to distribute them.
As far as what "we" can do? I'd say the media — especially outlets who write think pieces like this — need to do a better job highlighting these games and promoting them. I have to do a lot of digging and research to find games from other cultures. I just dipped into the rabbit hole of Chinese games and Chinese indies, for example. I had no idea about their rich history and I feel like I missed a whole alternative world of games. Where was the think piece article on Chinese Parents, or on the upcoming Rewinder?
@BloodNinja I don't have any problems with who I am in the world. I do have problem with how I am viewed in society. Your shaved head and tattoos were a personal choice. POC don't get to choose the don't get to choose the color of their skin. No one gets to choose their gender, gender identity, or sexual orientation.
As a black man living in the US, I have a big problem with the way POC are viewed in our country. From the cops to the politicians, POC are demonized to the point that people are defending cops after they shoot unarmed black people at traffic stops and literally crush the life out of them on camera. And the kicker is that most of them got away with it. Donald Trump was the culmination of decades of racism and misogyny perpetuated by conservatives. He was essentially that problematic "straight, white male's" dream. We all saw his views on POC and women on a national stage. Yet they voted for him twice.
Would love to see more asian girls similar to those from Senran Kagura in western games too
@Tomasmeza Lol I didn’t even say this, it was damo and they’re right
I fixed the quote and it was from you. All about my 'privilege'.
@Tibob
And still I await you to call out the contempt of other users. But regards what I said, just because it is harsh, doesn't mean it wasn't valid. To state that because others didn't understand it makes your lack of understanding ok, is to seek comfort in numbers.
I do find it entertaining that you've ignored this:
"Let's be absolutely clear; someone cited research they had done, I then asked to see it, in good faith.
If you have an issue with that being too heavy or ridiculous, take it up with the person that cited the research to begin with."
Because you have no response to it, you've completely dropped that part of your refrain.
@Crono1973
Just for clarification, are you using the male prison/unhoused population to argue that society is not male dominated?
@Crono1973 Literally the first hit on that Google search is The Guardian, which says there IS a pay gap between men and women:
"...the figures are an important indicator of structural inequality. The data shows eight in 10 companies pay male employees more, and some companies pay the men twice as much as women on average. The median gap is a blunt tool, but a powerful one"
But anyway! Back on topic...
@WatsonWatson Just for clarification, are you using the male prison/unhoused population to argue that society is not male dominated?
I am using it to counter the 'more men are CEO's argument'.
@eaglebob345 Only a very small minority of people are defending the cases you are mentioning. The majority have been appalled by those atrocities. But, there's no middle ground in this discussion, because you are pulling race into it. Regardless of our appearances, whether it is selected intentionally or given to us at birth, it still is only the surface of our existence. If someone chooses to make their mind up about you based on your simple appearance, then stop surrounding yourself with those people. Nobody is forcing you to be around racists. We stumble upon them, from time to time, but we do not have to stick around with them. There is always a choice to leave that situation.
There's a saying in self defense: "If you could have left, you should have." This principle has saved my physical life, many, many times.
@Franklin
I said "You guys are taking this thing way too seriously. This is a Nintendo website, calm down."
You... guys.
But your answer is "it's not me, it's the one that cited the study". I don't care one bit. Never said it was you alone, and your asking multiple times for proof makes you part of it.
As for yourself, you ignored my question too : "What are you trying to achieve here ?" Unless of course being vehement with strangers is your idea of fun.
(I wasted too much time on you, you're out as far as I'm concerned. Take care !)
@Damo I hope you're aware that google tailors it's search engine results based on your region, so you are going to have different search results than someone else.
@Damo Actually, the first link is from Time:
MYTH 5: Women earn 77 cents for every dollar a man earns—for doing the same work.
FACTS: No matter how many times this wage gap claim is decisively refuted by economists, it always comes back. The bottom line: the 23-cent gender pay gap is simply the difference between the average earnings of all men and women working full-time. It does not account for differences in occupations, positions, education, job tenure or hours worked per week. When such relevant factors are considered, the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing.
Wage gap activists say women with identical backgrounds and jobs as men still earn less. But they always fail to take into account critical variables. Activist groups like the National Organization for Women have a fallback position: that women’s education and career choices are not truly free—they are driven by powerful sexist stereotypes. In this view, women’s tendency to retreat from the workplace to raise children or to enter fields like early childhood education and psychology, rather than better paying professions like petroleum engineering, is evidence of continued social coercion. Here is the problem: American women are among the best informed and most self-determining human beings in the world. To say that they are manipulated into their life choices by forces beyond their control is divorced from reality and demeaning, to boot.
@chapu2006
The Mario series has a ton of diversity.
Humans, turtles, turtle monsters (bowser), walking mushrooms (Toads), whatever birdo is, dinosaurs (Yoshi), apes (Donkey Kong), squids (bloopers), goombas and so on and so on.
So where is this lack of diversity in the Mario IP you are talking about? I do not see it.
@Damo
Hakan has short temper, considers his traditional fighting style to be the best there is and he looks down on others.
A short-fused, arrogant egoist.
All traits often awarded to Turkish men around here.
And said group of friends loved him for exactly that, because he was such an out there cliche.
But to be quite frank, if we're at the point that Blanka might be offensive to Brazilians and yet, everyone loves him, then where is this all heading? What's the point?
Is he really offensive if everyone adores the design?
Would it be better to redesign him, even though people might not like him anymore but at least he wouldn't be possibly perceived as offensive?
The original comments regarding Poison you pointed out were almost exclusively mean spirited. I can see that being a major issue as well.
But i still fail to see how something can be "offensive" when no one really takes offense to it...
@BloodNinja I asked you in good faith to provide me with research that backed up your claim, and you couldn't produce it. If you can provide any valid research which proves otherwise, please do so - I'd be honestly very interested to read it.
@eaglebob345 That's a really narrow view of "straight white men". A big part of Trump's success was that the Democrats in the US marginalized poor white people in places like West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and the South. Hillbilly Elegy by JD Vance is a great book to read about this, as it illustrated how swaths of the "white" population have more in common with the American Black culture than the elite, media representations would have you believe. I think we're all being divided by power here, and the elites are selling this racial division as a distraction.
@Crono1973
I have been reading the thread, but maybe I missed something, so how does that argument go? I’m not sure I can see the connection.
Can’t lie, Nintendo Life has felt quite topical as of late.
Not that it’s a bad thing when the subjects are important, but I come here expecting news, trailers and gameplay about just the games.
Race representation in video games is something I won’t be divulging in, especially with all the comments I’ve just read through…
@Einherjar As I said, on the Retronauts podcast a person of Indian heritage stated that Dhalsim was offensive to Indian people.
@Damo I'll give you only one, then:
"Something that someone else teaches you, you will forget in 5 minutes. Something that you teach yourself, you will remember forever."
-martial arts saying, unknown origin
I hope that gets you started. Be well, sir.
The identities of the characters in game has no bearing on the quality of a game. The only thing that should matter is the quality of the end product. There's no point to this article.
@dew12333 My last paragraph was in consideration of historical precedent.
I'll be the first in line to defend people's right to say their piece, and when there's room to have a good faith discussion or debate, I'm all for it.
That said, it's not unreasonable to recognize that bad actors are committed to taking advantage of that good faith. I'm not advocating canceling folks, but you absolutely need to be wary about a person's intent and goals. Add to that, no one owes especially troubling opinions their attention/platform if they dont want anything to do with them.
Nuance is key.
@Tomasmeza Which history?
@HamatoYoshi They consistently get lots of comments, so they're good for ad revenue. Evergreen just like articles about NSO.
@Tibob
OK, fair points, though I don't see you responding to others. There are many comments on this page, so perhaps I missed it.
I'm not trying to achieve anything, I see engagment as an end in itself.
People being asinine does tend to induce my engagment though.
Have yourself a chilled day.
@Damo And said person is representative of all Indian people?
Most of SF's evil military types hail from Germany (The Dolls Juni and Juli, Falke) and that i find that offensive, would that make these characters offensive?
Genuine question by the way,
@NinjaGuy69
Agreed 100%.
Virtue signalers gotta vitrue signal though right?
@WatsonWatson I have been reading the thread, but maybe I missed something, so how does that argument go? I’m not sure I can see the connection.
You are going to have to quote what I said if you expect me to know which post of mine you are referring to.
@DTFaux "Nuance is key."
Nuance is too much work, sadly. Yet, you are 100% on the money, and it is oft-times missed during such discussions, in favor of pendulum-swinging between extremes.
@BloodNinja Could you at least give me a starting point to this? Like, whom should I look for and where to start the rabbit hole of information. @Damo is more or less asking where you find it that isn't just asking the librarian.
Woke and political corectness is killing the entertainment business. Indians are nice and funny, so is Vodka russians. John Wayne, we need you now more than ever...
@Tomasmeza I feel you, but we could agree or disagree on that. Like I'm arguing, I have no idea what it feels like to be "represented", but from the outside, diversity in media felt a lot better in the 90's and 00's as just a natural progress of changing demographics. Again, I don't know what it feels like today for minorities, but from the little bit of TV I watched this year the minority representation in commercials felt like young, rich ad execs on Twitter carefully crafting the politics of their ads, as opposed to the "why not?", color-blindness style way it was done 10 and 20 years ago.
It's really personal preference I don't know enough about it from the "represented" side to have a strong stance. I really only care to point out that a "represented majority" does not have the same psychology as a "represented minority".
@NatiaAdamo Certainly. The first book is paramount in it's importance:
https://www.amazon.com/Being-Nobody-Going-Nowhere-Meditations/dp/086171198X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1AYOGRCGCFU28&dchild=1&keywords=being+nobody,+going+nowhere+by+ayya+khema&qid=1626881958&sprefix=being+nobody,aps,223&sr=8-1
Any book by the author Thich Naht Hanh will be a great start, too. I recommend, "Be Free Where You Are."
https://www.amazon.com/Be-Free-Where-You-Are/dp/188837523X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1WAS6O6XQA9FY&dchild=1&keywords=be+free+where+you+are+thich+nhat+hanh&qid=1626882035&sprefix=be+free+where,aps,240&sr=8-1
In order to solve, we must learn how to see, and western society has completely forgotten how to "see," conflating surface problems and making them more important than things that go beyond skin. Some of those readings will remind you how to be able to "see" clearly again. Just a few from many off my shelf. Good luck.
ah sh*t, here we go again
If only something you learn yourself is worthwhile, then why go on a public forum to share your opinion and cite evidence? It's like someone that is only invisible when no-one else is looking.
Disagree with me? You're a narrow minded troll and I refuse to engage in discussion.
Found an interpretation? It's biased.
Want to see my research? Find it yourself, you'll come to the same conclusion as me.
Damn hilarious.
@burninmylight So I'll respond one part at a time, but in general I think you made some reasonable points. First, let's start with the Native Americans/Redskins Team. I think you make a good point on the wide array of people but that's something I would cite in my own defense for the fact I've seen Native Americans who don't mind the name and some who do. Who is more right and why does one person who isn't elected get to speak for so many different people? If it was in a different time, I'd be willing to even agree with the argument more but in a current social climate that forces diversity and wants to cancel so rampantly and have people never be able to make a mistake or stand by something with even any remote flawed origins, it makes caving in now of all times a bit of a sham and only hurts in the long run. Same goes for the Cleveland Indians. Point being, context is important and while Stewart's team made a legitimately fair point on Redskins as a racial slur, perhaps getting rid of it all is a bit extreme and maybe meeting in the middle would be fair?
As far as your point on Gay representation goes, it's only realistic in a vacuum. Foucault's Sexual revolution made sure to leave it's mark in that sense and be more open about homosexuality among other topics, and that doesn't even go into the fact that in the USA, homosexual marriage is completely legal and no one can be discriminated under law for his/her sexual orientation. Even despite tht, that goes into my original point that quote unquote representation boils a person down to the basic and most obvious traits, in this case it's sexual in nature as opposed to skin color.
@SonOfVon At this point, I think you mean, "there it went, again!" heh.
@BloodNinja Good Ninja.
@NatiaAdamo lmfao Where's my cookie!!!!
NINJA APPROVED
@Crono1973
How are prison populations related to CEOs?
@hillyarb Tomb Raider was a success, yes, but it was considered a huge risk when it shouldn’t have been in the first place.
@BloodNinja I'm forced to be around racists every day of my life. That's the nature of living in America. I have to work with them everyday and live around them everyday. That's what the Trump people were all about, regardless of what they want you to believe. It's the same people who would argue that the US Civil War was fought over state's right, but neglect to menton that those rights were to continue to own my people. Race is and forever will be part of the argument because of racists and racism. Being a "straight, white male" means you can disregard politics with negligible differences in policy that don't really affect you. Being anything else means more obstacles in life. There are exceptions, or course, but that's just the general rule of life as a minority in the US. Lastly, what does "If you could have left, you should have" have to do with anything? What situations are POC, women, or LGBTQ+ folk supposed to be leaving exactly? Black people specifically, what would you have us do? After 400 years or slavery and oppression, just let bygones be bygones and go back to Africa, and land our people haven't known for generations? Or Native Americans? They're land was stolen, people massacred, and then their children were stolen and left to die at the hands of the government. Now the US govt is stealing Hispanic children at the border because the US doesn't want to honor any agreements about asylum. What would you have them do, go back to their countries and die at the hand of their governments that were destroyed by American interventionism? It's not all the US's fault obviously, but the state of many impoverished countries like Mexico and those in South America, Africa, Europe, and Asia (countries with majority POC) are the way they are because of the US, Russia, and predominantly white European countries. Just a cursory look at world history would tell you that.
@RasandeRose John Wayne was pro white supremacy so I don’t know where you were going with that.
@eaglebob345 I'm forced to be around racists every day of my life.
Which flavor of racists, anti-white or anti-black?
I'm not even gonna read the other comments. Just wanted to say the article is cool and also awesome you mentioned Dandara! I think that game is great! I enjoyed it so much that I bought it physical! Underrated and very challenging metroidvania. Indies are killing it with more rep. Nintendo is improving. Pokemon in particular has been killing it with also body and age diversity having older gym leaders and chubbier characters. Opal and Melody!! It's getting there for sure. It's definitely a huge improvement since when I was a kid. I only had a variety of male Hollywood style characters to choose from or a lady in a bikini. Now I can actually create my character in some games. It's made gaming more immersive AND more fun. I'm happy with games evolution. We getting some of the best games from the indie scene too. It's a great time for games! That's not to say improvements can't be made but the progress has been good to see. Support indies!!
Always confused me when people defend the lack of minorities in japanese games by claiming there aren't many blacks/hispanics there. As far as I know there aren't many whites there, but the vast majority of Japanese created characters are very caucasian in appearance with blond hair and blue eyes. Even the japanese characters.
Okay, it’s closing time in this part of the world, so we’ll be TEMPORARILY locking the comments until tomorrow morning. Thank you to everyone who contributed their thoughts and opinions in a reasonable and respectful manner.
As always, our Community Rules are available to read here.
EDIT: Comments are now open again.
@Einherjar I certainly think the way Germany is often instantly associated with evil acts could be seen as offensive to Germans. It's reductive to make that association, just like it's reductive to say Indians like wearing skulls around their necks.
Stereotypes of all kinds are pretty negative, tbh.
'Nintendo Shows Progress' this says everything and nothing.
The article is Controversial and a games forum is not the best place to debate this topic.
And game moderators are not the best people to judge whether a reply is offensive or freedom of speech is being censored.
Nothing is as simple as the colour of Mario. ......
....and so 'Regretfully, we've taken the decision to lock comments on this piece' again.
I think you owe everyone who contributed to this post a reason, 'not' why you have locked this piece, but why you have 'regretfully' locked it.
Words can be interpreted in different ways, and your regret is for what or who?
As a proud straight "poc" man myself, let me say that I never cared about "representation" in games, never in my life was that a thing I looked for in my games. Neither did any of my White,Latino, Asian ,Black or gay friends care about it, we just played games if they were fun and good. The constant pushing of this idea that a game is bad for not having a certain checkmark character in it is ridiculous, you guys do realize you are helping creating more friction and dividing us more right?
I believe in artistic freedom, nobody should be forced to include these things just to satisfy a few blue haired blue checkmarks on twitter.(because frankly you give them an inch and they will take a mile)
Please for the love of god stop turning this site into Kotaku, as stated by others, most of us play games for fun and as an escape, I really hate seeing politics being forced into almost every game.
Since I saw some people mention Trump in here and blaming white supremacy, you guys do know a large portion of minorities also voted for him, right?
And lastly others mentions blm as well, if black lives truly mattered to that group, where did all the donated money go? To black communities? Nope, one of the founders was caught buying several mansions, money that could have been used to help their community.
All I ask is to do your own research, I am not saying all this out of a position of hate, don't let the media lie to you, these articles are not helping either.
@dartmonkey
Two questions:
2. How exactly is unconstructive defined? I know what the word means, but to use Super Smash as an example. If I remember correctly, some people more or less gloating or celebrating or atleast where happy to rub it in when Sakurai said Mai would not be a background character on the KoF stage. Was that constructive? Would it somehow have been less constructive if tgis was done against Twintelle instead of Mai when other people were unhappy Minmin was choosen to represent arms instead of her?
Mainly asking because it feels like things have been stricter here the few last months, and while I hope I'm wrong, my gutfeeling tells me the strictness would be applied unevenly.
Have a great day
@BloodNinja Your commenting on articles to to do with diversity related topics is very predictable. I get that you think of yourself as a deep thinker but you seem to lack the kind of empathy that comes with life experience. I'm guessing you're around 18 or 20 in age? You say "skin is just an organ of the body, it has no relevance" but that is such a naive thing to say because you have likely never experienced racism or known anyone who has, therefore you have never had to really think about what effects skin colour has in the real world. Certain groups in society need to agitate and push the conversation forward in order to overturn entrenched disadvantage. You seem to be very insecure about your place in the world as you seem to get defensive every time a viewpoint other than your own is aired. The use of bold type and your need to have the last say in everything are red flags too.
@gaga64 would you apologize for being yourself, in case it offends someone?
Barrett from Final Fantasy VII is an interesting case study. His inclusion is pretty cool for a game from 1997, but his portrayal is pretty cringeworthy at times. Also that Netflix series High Score has an interesting segment on the first time black players were included in a Madden game. Great article, thanks NLife.
@Edu23XWiiU Sorry, but no.
@Tobiaku
1. All articles are monitored to the best of our abilities and we receive alerts when comments are flagged via the 'Report' button (which we encourage everyone to use if they spot something they believe breaks the site's rules). If we judge a comment to have broken any of our Community Rules, it will be removed, regardless of which article it's sitting under.
There haven't been any significant changes to the rules or our approach to moderation, although new tools which leave removed posts in place (with the reason for removal visible to all) might make it appear like we're 'stricter' than we have been in the past (when those comments would simply disappear).
A couple of recent articles attracted several hundred comments, too - way more than is typical - and required specific attention due to the sheer quantity, but our approach is no different.
2. Our rules define the following as 'unconstructive':
Do not post - unless you have something useful to say; Only post when you have something meaningful to say or something that will contribute to the discussion. Posts such as "Yes" or "I agree", "Slow News Day?" or "LOL" are un-constructive.
More generally, I'd say we're willing to let conversation veer off-topic provided the discussion was sparked by the same article (and not brought over from an unrelated post) and as long as people are respectful and civil when expressing their opinions and interacting with others.
Again, if you spot anything you believe breaks the rules, 'Report' it and we'll address it in due course. The process behind moderation decisions is the same for everything, though.
Idk where some people get the time to post 42 (so far) comments on one article. Some people have a lot of free time I guess.
That said, this whole song and dance is getting kind of boring. It feels like a rerun at this point. Can we do something different than this next time?
@SolBlazer Everyone has experienced some form of prejudice in their lives. To focus on the surface, is to focus on the trivial details. You’re coming from a point of age based prejudice, by focusing on how old you think I am instead of the message I’m trying to send.
I can’t have the final say. This is an open chat forum. The people who have the final say are the people that can lock the forums.
We should all be attempting to cleanse ourselves of false judgement, by looking deeper into what it means to be human. You can be stuck at surface level thinking all you want, but that’s going to determine your experience.
Do not allow others to define you. I tell you this even as you so boldly attempt to define me without asking my age or even seeing what I look like...all based on a few messages on an anonymous chat forum. Then you proceed to build a false story about my character, going off of as little information as possible, talking about empathy, of all things.
If you are constantly pushing this narrative that your skin tone matters, then you have lost yourself to someone else’s definition of who you are as a person.
If you are trying to push the conversation forward, it is imperative that you stop attacking a persons character whenever they state something you disagree with, especially when you have as little information about the person as possible. Especially if you are trying to break down their character regarding empathy.
How many of Nintendolifes contributors hang around on resetera and kotaku? It can't be a coincidence it's the same identity focused writing here you also find there, the guardian, bbc, polygon etc.
@eaglebob345
It sounds like you have been radicalized by misinformation and your hate.
I hope you can get some help!
@BloodNinja
Thank you for your inclusive and wise words in this forum section.
You are truly open minded.
@marktornits Thank you. Oh, trust me. I still have work on myself to do. But, I'm doing the work to undo my prejudices. I'm trying. It's especially important to me to not judge people by appearance alone, as I feel it brings my life down if I stoop to such a level. Humanity is grand and deep, and a popular saying is that, "you can see the universe when you look into the eyes of another." I forget who coined that phrase, but it's a wonderful thought and an indication of a greater truth that lies beyond the skin.
@Arkay
Thanks for your very sensible reply
As a white man who has been working on a self funded documentary with 2 other white men for 5 years - (1 of the men wrote the book on the subject matter and the other is our director. I am the producer.)
We are being told by distribution companies (ones that boast “equity” that they don't want our content because there is not enough diversity in our production team. We have included as much diversity in the actual work as possible- How can we help that we wanted to work on this togethere as a team and we all just happened to be white? Should we go out and find token diverse people to add to our leadership team AFTER the doc is done just so it can be distributed?
This whole situation is absurd and racist.
Equity per it’s definition creates a discriminatory situation so that everyone has the same end result- the problem is that no one is ultimately getting that same end result- Even if we caved in on Amazon’s POC quota for our doc, we still won’t be rich like Jeff Bezos and neither will any other human on Earth.
Identity posturing mostly causes more racism and hate.
10 years ago people of all colors were dancing in the streets doing flash mobs and enjoying life- now everyone is being called racist and the media is forcing hate and divide.
While appreciating diversity and inclusion we can’t discriminate against those who my seem not to be that on the surface- Everyone has more to their story and their own trails and tribulations. Discrimination against people who you believe aren’t diverse enough is just more exclusion and racism. Appreciate all people and respect all belief systems.
@marktornits Haha, I see we have a new comedian in our midst. You keep telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night.
@dartmonkey You guys should really assess the fact these comment sections about acceptance, diversity, and multiculturalism always dissolve into arguments between those diverse people and (American) right-wingers about diversity. The least you guys could do is engage with these comment sections more than other to push back against those regressive ideas. All you're doing is giving them an undeserved pedestal.
@eaglebob345 the fact that you assume that everyone that disagrees is a right winger shows that you are very close minded, people can have different opinions on different topics without being part of a group you know? But I guess hating Americans is the cool thing to do.
If I have a message to the Americans out there, it would be this: Do not be ashamed of who you are, these people want to demoralize you and force their views onto you, while calling you a bigot for not accepting theirs, ironic since they themselves refuse to accept anyone else's views and opinions.
Do not ever apologize for something you didn't do, they will never be satisfied.
@marktornits this truly is a clown world that we are living in. You however, keep on pushing forward, do not let these minor setbacks hold you down.
@Arkay
Thank you! Def not slowing down-
Ultimately, our goal is to preserve history and we can give an eff about money-
If we have to dump it on YouTube or a comparable, so be it-
Just want to tell the people's stories.
@arenred
100% We have become a very soft society where some adults have the emotional maturity of children.
I would just like to say that I do not want articles like this, meaning political articles, on Nintendo Life.
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@1ofUs
Comingsoon.net went woke a few years ago and completely tanked- Now they have re-staffed and created a new website as a hail mary to get readers back- Probably too late.
@marktornits is NL becoming disney perhaps?
@1ofUs @Marktornits It is getting heavy handed, at the moment. Makes you wonder why they are using their platform for this sort of topic, knowing how young and impressionable readers come here for gaming news. Younger readers simply don't have enough information to make informed decisions on these topics, yet, and many of these articles come out of the blue and without solid context or evidence based discussion. I'm sure these folks will be the first to point out the negativity surrounding recruitment forums for ultra-conservative and such, but their hypocrisy is bleeding through. Nintendo Life is turning into a brainwash center for pseudo-science. Unfortunately, I know the score. It happened at Kotaku, it will happen here. Dissention will get banned for the sake of protecting the echo chamber, and it will be yet another gaming site swallowed up for the sake of "inclusiveness."
It's amazing how much they will silence people in the name of inclusiveness.
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@1ofUs Truly. While I enjoy the discussion that arises from them, I know it's a matter of time before the "wrong opinions" get banned, one by one. If that's the end-game, then there's no point in the article to begin with.
@BloodNinja yup. I'm afraid to say anything too... how should I say this without getting banned... different from current political views because I like coming here for smash bros and zelda news
@1ofUs What was disturbing to me, was the comment from Damo mentioning white privilege regarding representation in games:
"It's a right that most straight, white men have become far too accustomed to having over the past few decades (myself included) and it's high time it changed."
The way he chose to demonize whites made me take pause with the legitimacy and fairness of the site. You don't fight racism by being racist in return!
@BloodNinja fight fire with fire they said.
@1ofUs
I'd say right now the source for news (who probably gets a bit of his news from NL) is Spawn Wave- Zero agenda just gaming. No wonder why he is absolutely knocking it out of the park on YouTube as an individual content creator.
@marktornits Does he have a website
@1ofUs
No, just YouTube-
https://www.youtube.com/c/SpawnWave/
Every weekday morning he puts out a roughly 15 minute video that talks about the most notable news of the previous day.
In other videos he will test new products, do tear-downs, and many other pieces of fun content.
Dude has about 600K subs and he doesn't even push merch- pretty stand up.
@marktornits nice. Just subbed. He looks like a guy who enjoys informing people with real nintendo news
@1ofUs
Def- he's mostly heavy on nintendo with other consoles mixed in-
I've been subbed for 2 years now- Very legit.
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@protocol_penguin Huh?
@BloodNinja It is true that I should not judge you based on your presumed age. However, age usually contributes to life experience, and life experience is very important in shaping a well-rounded character. Also I have read hundreds of your comments, not just 'a few', and there is a distinct pattern of overly academic language and rigid, convoluted arguments. I only called you out because you reminded me of myself at a younger age, all burning intellect but nothing to really back it up.
@SolBlazer And you still haven't bothered to ask my age, where I gathered my information over the years, what my temperament is as a human being, where I was born or how I was raised, any form of education I may or may not have had, how or why I form certain opinions, etc, etc.
I'm not a thug, so I do not use the vernacular of one. I use language that is essentially considered mid-range, academically, with the intent of being understood clearly, and with the intent of revealing a small bit of an "ah-ha," for people to enjoy and debate over. I do not seek to use overly academic language, because I want the general public to understand what I'm saying, to further help any discussions that may arise.
And why should I take you seriously, when you are yet to evolve from half-blind, insulting assumptions? Are you here to challenge me publicly, for some inane reason?
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@protocol_penguin I'm not associated with any political affiliation. Instead of trying to figure me out, you could just ask. The German phrase you shared with me is showing how incredibly ignorant and insulting you are, as well. I'm not sharing anything that has to do with German nationalism; I'm sharing ideas from (mostly Japanese, some Thai) Zen Buddhism regarding being and non-being.
The usual suspects make their usual "I don't see colour" type arguments. While that notion seems noble on the surface, it actually is the opposite. With different colours, genders, sexual orientations etc. come different experiences and to say you don't see them, or even that you don't want to see them, dismisses people's lived experiences and puts them almost in a fantasy category. Great that you don't want those experiences to ruin your escapism, now imagine living them. The whole year round.
We won't be able to not see colour as long as political parties and politicians win elections based on racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia etc. and make laws that affect minority groups negatively.
That people actually use the "racism against white men" argument is ridiculous. But I guess that's what happens when you've been fed propaganda about minorities taking your privileges.
On a side note, they're called women, not females. Women is the word you were searching for. Please and you're welcome.
@Rin-go I see color. I don't judge by it. Isn't that what you want?
@Sjmaster It’s because modern Japanese animation was inspired by Disney in the 60s and 70s. Anime before World War II doesn’t have that look. They are not “caucasian”.
@BloodNinja Yes, I am here to challenge your bravado. Not for any old inane reason, but because bullies need to be challenged. I think you hind behind your martial arts persona, a common practice it would seem. Take off the ninja mask, I want to see if there is a human face behind it.
@SolBlazer @BloodNinja ‘s attitude is so chill hahaha. We’ve gotten into it and we don’t always see eye to eye, but he’s a good dude even if he doesn’t see the world exactly the way you or I do.
@SolBlazer Okay. What do you want to know? I've been a martial artist for 20 years, so I'm not sure I can step out of that, as it is deeply rooted as part of my identity. You have the open floor, so what do you want to know? I gave you examples of things you could ask me to get clarification, but you still haven't asked anything, yet.
HEY NINTENDO LIFE! If comments like @Rin-go ‘s above — if talking to each other like that is ok — what the hell is getting banned!?
Is moderation to keep discussion civil, or to enshrine an ideology?
@Spiders Thank you. I actually LIKE that we don't always see eye to eye. It means that there is a crack in the echo chamber. I also like it because I always learn something from your posts, so thank you for that.
@BloodNinja Respect. I value that too!
IRL I have friends from all walks of life... super-woke to conservative, old and young, straight and gay. The common denominator is that they’re all good people, so I know when we disagree, it’s worth listening and taking it on and re-examining my thoughts.
I wish internet discourse could work more like that.
@Spiders Respect is a value that is in short supply. Everybody wants it, but nobody is willing to give it freely. Have they forgotten that in order to gain respect, you must first give it, or at the very least do something respectable? The fact that you have come in contact with a variety people is a great strength, as it will continue to enable you to remain open minded, and it shows that you are truly open to ideas outside your own thoughts. I too, wish internet discourse didn't devolve into calling everyone alt-right or left-wing, or whatever words people like to throw around. I guess it was only a matter of time before those unenlightened thinkers started to rear their ugliness on NintendoLife.
Great article. I think its important to note that games media also needs to priortise diversity with its voices. Notably Nintendo Life's on screen talent on its youtube channel are all white men. I don't say this as an aggressive 'gotcha' but just a reminder that we all need to do better.
@ComradeThom What if those white men that work for Nintendo Life are qualified for the job? What's the sense in changing their employee lineup if everyone there is already qualified to do the job duties? You're saying that the site needs to "do better," because it features white men on it's YouTube channel? Tell me, what country is NintendoLife based in?
@Spiders Unless Rin-go edited their post or you were referring to an earlier post by them, I'm not sure what upset you about that post, it was civil enough. I think I actually hold quite similar views to yourself and BloodNinja regarding the necessity for free speech and conflicting views to be heard and respected. However I cannot accept that this comment section is an 'echo chamber'. There's lots of different opinions here, which is great. We will never agree, which in some ways is how it should be.
@SolBlazer You might be right. I’m miffed because it seems ad hominem attacks are ok if they’re couched in the “correct” political views.
I might be reading too much into it, or I’m reading it correctly and @Rin-go is calling everyone a racist who doesn’t believe what they believe about critical race theory.
It’s a problem that one side of the argument has this trap built into it. That’s more than a difference of opinion.
I don’t want to see any comments banned or blocked. I think a warning is fair enough for sensitive people and they have a valid desire not to see things they don’t like and they shouldn’t have too, if it can come without an expense to everyone else.
I value different opinions too — I like reading these articles!!! — but that doesn’t mean we should let moderators tilt the table to favor some opinions over others.
@ComradeThom
Unfortunately the comments section on their youtube videos is very dry compared to the site
@hillyarb This.
@Rin-go Racism against white men is real. I am subject to it at work frequently. It's part of the "equity" component of DIE (diversity inclusion and equity). It pushes for the marginalization (being explicitly racist and oppressive) of the perceived "oppressor" class (white men). So it's not "propaganda" as you claim, it's our real lived experience.
@BloodNinja And who said to judge by it? That comment makes no sense to my comment and how you behave in general.
@Spiders Nowhere have I called anyone a racist. And how that can be read into my comment is downright bizarre.
@laughfactory And that shows itself how exactly? Because to me it seems like the problem lies in you only getting a slice of the cake as opposed to getting half the cake.
Are you in a majority white country governed predominantly by white people? Because then you can't experience racism. Prejudice? Yes. But racism? Definitely not.
@Damo "Games should be reflective of society".
Which version of society should be reflected? The society that consists of a significant proportion of people with varying degrees of racially discriminative views, or the dream society where everybody is equal and respectful?
The NLife mods seem perfectly fine with leaving far-right, white nationalist comments up on its site. #thisisfine
@BloodNinja "What was disturbing to me, was the comment from Damo mentioning white privilege regarding representation in games:
"It's a right that most straight, white men have become far too accustomed to having over the past few decades (myself included) and it's high time it changed."
The way he chose to demonize whites made me take pause with the legitimacy and fairness of the site. You don't fight racism by being racist in return!"
I haven't demonized anyone - my point is that straight, white males are massively over-represented in video games (and other media as well, to be honest).
Next time you're in a video game store, take a look at the shelves and tell me how many covers either feature A) white male protagonists or B) white female protagonists wearing revealing clothing.
And I should reiterate here, I'm not saying either of those things are 'wrong' as such, but would it hurt to also allow people other than straight white men to get some representation in video games? That's really all that is being asked for in this piece, and for some reason, some individuals have taken that to mean we're calling or Mario to change the colour of his skin or every video game character to be black. That's not the case.
Regretfully, we've taken the decision to lock comments on this piece again.
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