Almost immediately after Fortnite landed on Switch last week, players all around the world showed their outrage online at Sony's bizarre restrictions regarding cross-platform play. As you may be aware, users who have played the game on PS4, potentially spending a hefty sum on of money and unlocking various content in the game, are not permitted to play using their account on their Nintendo Switch. Effectively, Sony has locked all purchases, save data, and therefore players' time and money, onto its own system, preventing its customers from continuing the game on another console.
It feels unethical, especially considering Fortnite is actually Epic Games' property rather than Sony's, and you'd be forgiven for wondering whether the practice is even legal. Unfortunately, it appears that there is no answer to the issue, either, as current laws fail to acknowledge the problem whatsoever.
Speaking with Variety, Professor of Law at the Case Western Reserve University School of Law, Aaron Perzanowski, has explained some of the finer details behind the situation.
"In terms of the law, the existing legal rules tend to think about these issues primarily through the lens of End User License Agreements and Terms of Use. Those documents almost universally say that consumers are not purchasing but are merely licensing content. And often, they expressly forbid transferring those digital assets to another party, account, or service."
A section of Fortnite's End User License Agreement (EULA) reads: “regardless of any references Epic may make outside this Agreement to purchasing or selling Game Currency or Content, both Game Currency and Content are licensed, not sold, to you under the License". This essentially means that Epic is technically only licensing (or lending) its content to players, and even though purchases are described as "sales", Epic doesn't ever actually transfer ownership of its content to consumers.
Of course, the ridiculous length and wording of license agreements deter users from ever reading them, and this allows organisations to get away with seemingly dodgy practices in a technically legal and honest manner. Despite this, though, Epic does not seem to be taking advantage of any potential loopholes created here; Fortnite can be played and transferred freely across all systems with no issues apart from Sony's PS4, suggesting that Sony is the one using these legalities to its advantage - and this is something that Perzanowski agrees with, too.
"In this case, it looks like Sony is the one standing in the way of portability. Assuming Epic is opposed to that move, its ability to stand up for consumers turns largely on the nature of its contractual relationship with Sony. If Sony insists on this sort of authority, which wouldn’t surprise me, Epic could try to pressure Sony publicly or privately, but it may not have much in the way of legal recourse against Sony.”
Another part of the EULA states that “Except as otherwise prohibited by applicable law, Epic, in its sole discretion, has the absolute right to manage, modify, substitute, replace, suspend, cancel or eliminate Game Currency or Content, including your ability to access or use Game Currency or Content". If Epic has "sole discretion" over its content, why does Sony have any say in the matter? Does this mean that Epic has some kind of contractual obligation in place to keep Sony happy?
It's frankly impossible to know, and it seems that a lack of laws surrounding the subject means that this practice is fine to go ahead. With a potential rise in popularity projected for digital services in gaming such as season passes, streaming, and licensing content, perhaps it's time to have some more concrete laws put in place to protect all parties?
Have you been affected by Sony's Fortnite restrictions? Do you think this situation seems unfair to consumers? As ever, feel free to share your thoughts and feelings on the matter with us in the comments below.
[source variety.com]
Comments 112
I'm glad sony came out and said all they care about is money, not you, not what you want, not games.
"But their a business" They sure are.
Arguing this (to me) is the same argument with the transfer of purchases/save points between the Wii U and Switch (for instance Hyrule Warriors)
Therefore different systems and nothing to argue about
It's unfortunate this issue will get conflated with the far less pressing issue of the lack of cross-play between PS4 and other systems.
For the payers.
One more reason to never go "all-digital." I hope the future that Ubisoft's CEO talks about, the all-streaming, digital future never happens. For this reason alone. If I buy something, it's mine. But the way the laws are now, consumers don't own anything they buy digitally. They are in a sense renters of the content. And the content can be pulled anytime the corporations want.
its almost as if sony doesn’t think the PS4 will sell well on its own...hmmm...they should reflect on that
Everyone hates Sony, even if they love PlayStation consoles. The company has always been arrogant (and a blatant copycat); this is nothing new to those who have followed the company for the past 20+ years.
@DarthFoxMcCloud most of this legalese is just them saying “no you don’t own the models, textures, code etc of these assets, that’s not what we’re selling you, we’re in fact selling you only access to these items.” unfortunately game companies have to cover there arses in a lot of stupid ways these days to keep people from suing them
1. No Cross play for Rocket League PS4 = Oh, what a big idea....
2. Can't play Fortnite due to have account on PS4 = Damn You, Sony !!
Sony want to sabotage Nintendo.
What a violation.
There was a point in time where phone companies didn't have to connect competitors calls. People were forced to have the same phone company to talk to each other. That was changed. It's practically the same situation here.
https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-local-phone-companies-must-connect-net-calls/
Does this really surprise people?
The ‘user agreements’ for just having a PSN account are insanely ridiculous, like anything. The devices operate in sleep mode, communicating with other devices and things you’re logged in with to exchange your information.
It’s alllllllll about the money
Yeah, it's going to backfire on them. They know they've got the biggest platform so they think they can stop people going elsewhere by being obstinate. It just makes them look bad, though. Being helpful to your customers is good for business and one by one games companies are going to catch on to that.
At the end of the day Sony doesn’t want to see its customers enjoying an experience in a manner they did not intend. Maybe Fortnite will be out for Vita at some point. I think it’s crappy personally and only tend to play exclusives on PlayStation. I reserve my Xbox/Switch/PC for everything else.
@th3r3ds0x
I swear i WILL NOT buy PS4 games anymore once i got my 10th games as Finale and Will NEVER Want to buy PS5 (If it does exist) even with its Backward Compatible to play previous PS machines in Physical.
Indeed, the issue isn't with cross-platform
multiplayer allowing which or not is within Sony's right whether we like it or not - it's with multiple reports of Epic accounts (nominally shared across PS4-PC-mobile and Switch-XBox-PC-mobile respectively) getting locked into one of the aforesaid ecosystems if their owners have tied them to PSN once. As I expected, there's nothing illegal in default agreements, although what this article's quoting does not sound immediately indicative of Sony's dibs either. Not reading EULAs is technically at users' own risk as well (legal sphere isn't known for striving for easy and eloquent reads in general, much to the career market benefits of numerous lawyers and notaries out there XD), but perhaps it's worth checking out Fortnite's PS Store EULA as well - does THAT cointain a special warning about this stuff? I think we can all agree for once that it should, especially if the basic clauses really make no mention of any party but Epic authorized to pull the blanket. And preferably accessible before doing much about the store item (some people claim that they were able to untie their accounts if they had never used the game itself, but it seems like even starting the download is the point of no return).
I have no personal stake in the topic (certainly not gonna use PS4/PC/Android for a game that I wouldn't have given a try without the combo of a free download and Switch's full-fledged control scheme in the first place) and I don't subscribe to most of the "ethical consumer treatment!!!" junktalk in regards to commercial fiction - but some things really warrant a certain minimal degree of clarity IMO.
It's the next big thing! You pay but never own! What's next? You pay and maybe not even get the game sometimes?
If Epic is so opposed to Sony not offering cross system play pull the game from PS4, simple. Same goes for any other company with a game on PS4 that wants to offer cross system play but can't. Rocket League and Minecraft.
But those companies won't, they want 80 million PS4 owners buying their game. They want their money. They say they want what's best for the players but all they want is their money. If those companies really wanted to stop Sony form doing this they would stop putting their games on Sony's consoles, btu they wont' stop b/c they like the money Sony's install bae gets them.
Not saying Sony is in the right or those companies are in the wrong, but if they wanted to fight Sony, pulling their game is something they could do. But they wont', b/c it's easier to talk than act.
@Uncensored "You pay and maybe not even get the game sometimes?"
That's called "Kickstarter".
@rjejr flip that around. it’s not the company’s responsibility to withhold their game from a platform. instead it’s up to the consumers to just not buy ps4. plus the amount of resources dumped into fortnite they need a return otherwise why continue to make games?
What's the problem here? If you play any other cross platform game on two different consoles you don't get to transfer your save. Why is this a big deal.
I swear, the big issues (like paying to play online) don't blow up but small stuff like this does. I guess that's what make the world interesting to live in, it's unpredictable.
@Donni You are vastly uninformed. So badly its dangerous. This is a Sony decision NOT an Epic decision. Both companies released statements saying this. Epic close to the launch, pointing the figure at Sony and Sony giving an excuse for it yesterday. Epic cannot do anything.
I'm glad I never touched Fortnite on PS4 and played it on PC instead.
I couldn't care less about cross-play. Cross-progression is what matters IMO. Sucks for those who played Fortnite on PS4 who want to play on Switch (or Xbox One).
Glad i don't buy micro transactions shame on you sony. I don't play Fortnite, but i can understand the outrage!
@Crono1973 This has nothing to do with saves lol! /facepalm
The whole beauty of the cross-play in Fortnite is that not only progress is shared, but also your ingame purchases and unlocks!
That Sony is blocking Cross-play is one thing, but they are also blocking ingame purchases being shared to Xbox and Nintendo!
Sony does allow it to be shared to PC and Mobile, since it doesn't see those platforms as a threat. They only block it to XBLive and Nintendo!
That is why people are rightfully outraged! Since Sony is so inconsistent on this. You either block Cross-play completely and be done with it or you allow it!
This gives me even more reason to hack my PS4 to spite Sony, I think I will do it this weekend.
Sony need to be careful this doesn't bite them in the backside when the PS5 rolls out. I mean who thought Microsoft would drop the ball so badly after the 360? ‘For the players' indeed.
@Uncensored it's basically about selling experiences and impressions rather than physically possessed items - something theaters, circuses and cinemas have done for ages. No wonder digitally distributed content is the first to face temptation from that tried'n'true road as well. The only plausible way to counter it is try and maintain full private use copy ownerships in a profitable enough state to compete with licensing models - although "plausible" still doesn't equal "failproof" either.
It’s not ethical, that’s for sure. I’ve never understood why Sony and their PS4 are so popular.
@Jeronan
Btw, PC is still owned by Microsoft , right ?
@G-Boy
"I’ve never understood why Sony and their PS4 are so popular."
Because of their Infamous attitudes.
At work, a few people here saying the complete account ban (not the crossplay or cross over of ingame purchases) on Switch is a result of Epic games not putting the work on their end of a better system that vets and filters what works on which console the user name would be associated with.
@Yorumi
Um.... are you working in Law Department ?
What do you think about this mess ?
Did Sony violate something ?
@Anti-Matter Just windows
@Jokerwolf
Ow... i see.
That's why Sony can do whatever they want to knock down their opponents.
@Jeronan Ok, DLC I bought on the 360 worked on the PS3? No, of course it didn't.
@dystome In reality once Spiderman releases nobody will remember this, and Sony will still be dominating the industry.
@G-Boy Exclusives + Unique controller
@Anti-Matter No matter who is on top, the top dog always does crap like this. In the 360 generation Microsoft was the one being really crappy about crossplay (I think FF14 they had a stink on) and even planned for the XBOX 1 to always be connected to the internet to play games. Nintendo would treat 3rd parties like $h!+ in the 90s because they could. Everyone takes a turn being a d!)k head when they're doing the best.
@Nintendoforlife I do love the controller, I use it with my Switch all the time and my PC!
@Donni those never work what so ever.
This is an awful large salt pile for a fad that will be forgotten about by this time in 3 months!
@RedMageLanakyn Yep, persistent things to whine about like paying for online play will never get this much attention.
@Crono1973 Right, I'm sure having your account locked to a single system isn't important.
@GrailUK OUR PAYERS, MWHAHAHAHA! * Lightning strikes *
I'm an attorney, though I don't work in Intellectual property. What I can say on a basic level here is that gamers probably couldn't win in court because they don't have what's called "standing". Standing in this case means you can sue Sony because Sony is violating a contractual relationship with you and you're actually being hurt by this violation. The EULA probably won't work for that.
Epic may have standing to sue Sony (lost sales on game transactions because Sony prevented cross-play, accounts carrying over). The thing is, would Epic really want to pick that fight? They probably want to see other games on PlayStation in the future, so why rock the boat?
The only good answer I see is for PlayStation sales to sink and people buy for the other platforms. Sony would have to listen then.
@Nintendoforlife Except it's not, because you can access it from multiple different platforms, as stated in previous articles.
@Dang69
You don't need to use Pseudo Profanities to reply me.
That was rude, dude.
Lol
when the next generation consoles come out this might come back to bite sony in the backside
@DarthFoxMcCloud Well. I mean. You'd expect to take a PS4 disc and put it in your One and have it work? That's what you're implying.
So could you spend £1000s on the game on Xbox or Switch and then play on PS4 and then not be able to go back to the console you spent all the money on the game on? That seems like it may not be legal. Spending money on a game on one console then having another prevent you from using it on the console you paid to use it on?
Ethical?
Surely not.
Legal?
Probably.
@LUIGITORNADO That's actually not the argument I was making at all.
@Anti-Matter ??? The fake profanities weren't directed at you at all - should be obvious I was expressing frustration at the people who make these stupid decisions that backfire on them (like you hating on Sony because of it). Not rude. Not really even disagreeing with you either, just saying everyone takes a turn at doing this crap. If you already understood all of that when reading the comment, that is insanely sensitive of you.
@Crono1973 LOL! You can't compare it to single system games with DLC.
Apples and Oranges. /facepalm
@Crono1973
The thing is, Sony is using it's market leading position, to force another company like Epic Games to block user data and purchased content for some specific ecosystems, that Sony sees as competitors.
If Sony just refused cross-play and cross-purchases for all other platforms, then this wouldn't be such a big problem. But allowing this for PC, iOS and Android, but not for Switch and Xbox isn't ethical at all. And probably not legal inside EU either?
Google just got two huge fines from EU for misusing it's market leading position with Search engines and mobile ecosystems.
Sony has a similar market leading position inside EU, when it comes to gaming and consoles. As market leader a company has some responsibilities and can't just misuse it's position.
If EU were going to look into this, then I think Sony could be in trouble, and would probably be fined for this behavior!
Ethical? Give me a break! It's a f2p videogame for Christ.
@DarthFoxMcCloud I knew that, but that's what it sounds like.
The issue here being that people's content isn't transferable from Sony systems to other platforms. Saying that this issue is another problem with all digital games implies it's a problem that doesn't exist with physical games, which clearly isn't true.
@Pazuzu666
What Sony is doing here, is non ethical consumer behavior!
And Sony is misusing it's market leading position, to block competitors. Not very ethical either!
@dres It's an example of abusive monopoly powers, if nothing else.
Under EU law that is a problem, so it depends if the free market can resolve it without intervention being required.
@Nintendoforlife why is there so much hype for Spiderman? I just don't get it and I liked Spiderman as a kid, but not lose my mind foaming at the mouth for the paradigm shift that Spiderman is reputed to become.
@Jeronan You said: LOL! You can't compare it to single system games with DLC.
Reminds me of the movie Liar Liar:
You: I object your honor!
Judge: Why?
You: Because it's devastating to my case!
I was talking about multiplat games (like Skyrim) where the DLC bought on one system does not carry over to another system.
I fail to see what is surprising about this. Sony's currently leading the gaming game this generation, and whoever takes the lead by a lage margin in any field whatsoever usually end up being a big bully. When you're the top dog, you're already on top, so being nice is not going to win a lot more people over.
Those who usually have the best promos and fight for "the players" are usually the underdogs. Because THEY are the ones trying to win people over.
Just look at Microsoft. It was in a much better shape over the last generation. But then again, they got arrogant towards the players when they unveilled their XB1 (pitching it more as a TV add-on, and with all those sharing restrictions), that it backfired in its face, and Sony took the opportunity to scoop all the gamers Microsoft abandonned at the gate.
Granted, this cross-platform issue alone may not be big enough to change the balance of power for this generation, but if Sony continue to act like this, and be this big arrogant bully, the console market might be in a different place when the next generation comes.
@RedMageLanakyn You're right it can be used on different platforms, but depending on what platforms you have to use it will be locked to a single console.
@Alikan I believe it's because the developer creating the game is pretty large, which people assume means quality. And people feel a sense of pride that it can only be played on their console, plus people just like spiderman haha.
@NL: The EULA is between EPIC and consumers. As between those two parties (only), EPIC has sole discretion.
I wish Sony would allow cross-play, but legally and ethically, it's their call. It's their system and they get to say what goes on it and how it is used (Nintendo does the same thing). Sony is hurting itself though, because cross-play is what users and developers want.
If you have a ps4:
1. If it isn't obvious, never buy any microtransactions on a ps4 ever again
2. I probably would never buy another console made by Sony ever again
I personally wouldn't care if Sony left the console market, in fact it would be nice, seeing tons of exclusives on other systems and a market with one normal console (xbox) and a hybrid (switch)
@yuwarite Yeah, pretty much. They make some sweet consoles but after all the BS with the PS4 generation I'm pretty much ready to switch to Xbox for my next console. Especially if it lets me jump to my Switch for cross-play, that's the best of both worlds. Sony's already restricted me from playing with my friends, may as well jump ship and save a few hundred.
@Alikan Same here. I think mostly there's an echo effect that when Playstation says an exclusive is a big deal, people easily buy in that it's a big deal. I keep looking like "it's Spiderman....with a lot of similar things the Activision Spiderman I played on WiiU did....I don't get it" BUT, it's also Insomniac making it, and their games are almost always crazy fun (Ratchet & Clank, Sunset Overdrive) ....so I'm remaining hopeful.
@MasterJay Everything good that's happened on Playstation has been due to them having direct competition with Sega, then Microsoft. Everything good that's happened on XBox is due to them having direct competition with Sony. If either brand falters, gamers lose.
@rjejr This isn't a matter of "no cross-play with other consoles", it's matter than if you have your Epic account linked to your PSN account you may not link it to your Nintendo Account or your XBL account, and if you unlink it, the purchases (from EPIC) and your progress/stats remain linked to Sony and can not be linked to PSN or XBL. Saying your Playstation can't talk to your Switch is one thing. Saying if you've played on Playstation, your EPIC account and all your purchases are forever immortally locked to Playstation and may never be used with XBox or Nintendo.....that's pushing a whole other envelope.
Is the second statement in the sub heading to this article even a question?
@NEStalgia Not everything good is caused by competition, but i see what your saying, and I wouldn't be surprised if another company took the opportunity to enter the market. Of course, all of this is most likely never going to happen, I would just be okay with it if it did
Nintendo itself is doing so many unethical things with Switch...
Watching the different stances people have on this issue, on Nintendo Life and its sister site, Push Square, are certainly interesting. It's time to look at it objectively. I'm long time PlayStation and Nintendo fan, and what Sony is doing is certainly out of order. In fact, I hope this outcry may kick some sense into them to be more open. However, these practises are not exclusive to Sony, last gen, Microsoft did the same thing with blocking cross play with PS3 players, and they knew they could as the 360 led the way. Then Xbox One launched with a complete disregard to what many people wanted. Later, Nintendo themselves have cut services, given us a lack of transparency for a long time over the online service the Switch is soon set to offer and allow Fortnite players to use voice chat, but Splatoon 2 players need an app (for some unexplained reason)
I'm ready to accept that all big companies are anti-consumerist if they feel they can be.
I'd have to wonder if Epic could just threaten to cut off Sony from fortnite access as soon as contractually possible. Or perhaps some other form of legalized blackmail to get them to behave may work. Perhaps not directly but a future Epic game could get a 30day delay for release after PC Nintendo, etc. Let them suffer a lack of wallet lining sales by so many impatient gamers buying on another format. The only way Sony can listen is losing money, money loss would make them react.
@NEStalgia "that's pushing a whole other envelope"
Well it might be, but the solution is still the same - developers who want their games to have cross platform play shouldn't put them on PS4 until Sony allows it. Otherwise the devs are hypocrites, taking peoples money on Sony systems but just talking and not doing.
@tekknik Most people are not going to stop buying a PS4 because they can't play Free to play Fortnite on Switch.
SONY knows they getting (and have) all big 3rd party online games (ones the Switch not getting). Not trading that to make a random point.
Devil's advocate: Sony is keeping the ability to play with other PS4 users exclusive to their system. That's no different from keeping exclusive games exclusive to their system. If Microsoft and Sony started publishing on other systems, would it be selfish for Nintendo to keep its own games for itself? Of course not, that's just another reason to buy a Switch; the exclusive games.
Nothing prevents Epic from saying, well from now on, PS4 players don't get to play Fortnite Battle Royale at all anymore, not even amongst themselves on PS4 consoles, until Sony changes their mind. Technically, as specified above, they never sold anything to the users and are allowed to terminate that license since they're only lending the content to their users.
Are they likely to do that though, to stand up and fight for the end user's rights? No, I don't think so. That will never happen.
@rjejr true, but again i think the companies and mostly consumers are ok with no cross play. But Sony is taking your account at another company hostage.... That's why this game is a separate issue. This is more like: if you use Amazon video on your xbox, any videos you buy can't be watched on Amazon video on your ps4 or switch ever.
Does somebody know if you can actually play with your PS4 Fortnite account on a PC, XBOne or iPhone?
@rjejr well I truly believe they want to please the gamers. At the same time though, no money = no game. They can’t develop the games for free and while the companies are probably run by folks that definitely want to maximize profits, the folks actually making the game probably care very deeply about how the fans feel about their work. If I were a game dev I’d take great pride in the fact that my game had a huge following and Sony’s actions would definitely disappoint me as it frustrates the very people I’m trying to please.
@Uncensored
That will be the successor to lootboxes given you are gambling for access to some content.
It does all come down to Epic's contract with Sony. A contract that will will probably never see. The only people who could resolve this are Epic and Sony's lawyers. Petitions by fans will do little more than to show a desire for the rule to be changed.
What is Fortnite?
@Axlroselm
"What is Fortnite?"
Well, a rated Teen shooting games by Epic with crazy outfits and hilarious stuffs.
Of course they won't allow players to cross play with other console users but Life of Black Tiger, that's ok to put on their store with copy righted music in it.
@th3r3ds0x I'm sure the devs are upset, but until somebody steps up and does something about it what incentive does Sony have to offer cross system play? I really don't think they will lose any lawsuit, too much fine print in the EULAs, and if any company did pull it's game off of PS4 Sony would just spin it as that company being the bad guy. And if all of the big games pulled their games off - Fortnite, Minecract and Rocket League - then Sony would probably sue them for some type of illegal collusion.
Nobody wins this one.
@NEStalgia I think it will all be taken care of with PS5. Which will be announced by next E3 at the latest, which Sony will promote as "For the gamers", so the more people make a big fuss about it now the more Sony wins later. If they can hold out that long.
@Captain_Gonru This, however, is more a matter of principle to me.
Fair enough. It is amazing to me which issue the masses choose to make a fuss about.
Paid online play started with the original Xbox and it has now spread to all consoles. Sooner or later it will come to PC as well. People say PC gamers would never allow that but that's BS, PC gamers allowed Steam to kill physical PC games and many PC gamers are also console gamers who just pay the online fee.
@MasterJay Except the Xbox isn't a normal console, it's more of a PC.
It's honestly impossible to draw a real conclusion without having Epics side of the story, which is probably more important than anything Sony could say on the matter. It is an Epic account after all. Perhaps they are fine with this restriction.
If Epic isn't happy and is being forced into it then the laws probably do open up well beyond what constitues ownership of content under an EULA (which this article focuses on) and into the real of abuse of market dominence which many regions do have laws about, and in many cases they wouldn't require Sony to be found to be in a Monopoly situation either as some may suggest. If anything this is where I think SOny would face a legal uphill battle, not for the case of restricting digital sales (which I think may be seen as reasonable), but also restricting non sales based data that Sony doesn't own such as game progress, stats etc.
I'd be super interested in seeing an EU vs US take too. GDRP has certainly placed some power back on the user in relation to ownership of their own data. Sony restricting flows for a third party service through persuasion as a result of market dominance would make for an interesting discussion.
Yes. This is a problem for me too! I actually used to think Sony as good and humble company. For example I have a Sony phone, and I couldn't ask for a better one, so I thought...you know... Anyway this really does make me question Sony...
Its very clear that Sony is simply doing this to make sure that they keep those PS4's selling like hotcakes. They obviously don't want people going to other consoles and want them on a leash and stuck to the PS4.
This is the problem with that though, by doing these anti consumer practices, they are making their player base question whether or not sticking with Sony in the future is the right choice. The other thing that they are doing is making any kind of possible cross-platform features very unlikely in the future. If Sony doesn't have the best console next gen, they will be in some serious trouble. Microsoft didn't do well because of the features they tried to push on its consumers. Since then they have back-pedalled on those features and made some extremely welcomed ones. Microsoft is also buying out a lot of great developer teams showing future exclusives will be a huge thing. Microsoft services are also amazing compared to Sony average at best services.
Sony is really pushing it, this could all blow up in their faces next gen.
@Tasuki Yes, actually, this is how is seen the gaming industry. First and foremost, a pc is the best way to play games, then an Xbox is similar to a pc, but with an os that suits a tv more, but your games also carry over (with play anywhere, though this feature needs to be refined and emphasized), allowing you to play hardcore on pc, and casual co op games on your couch, the Switch then is hybrid that you play anywhere, and in my ideal setup, I would have a dock for my tv and pc monitor, allowing me to play things like splatoon and Zelda on my monitor and Mario kart and smash on my tv with friends
@rjejr So far, I don't think we'll see a PS5 next E3. So far MS has only said "new console in the works", and Spencer clarified later at the Inside XBox what I thought, that it was much like Iwata announcing "NX" during the DeNA announcement so everyone didn't panic and think they were exiting consoles. Spencer announced "new hardware" after announcing "streaming console quality games to any device" to reinforce that they're not exiting consoles and consoles are still priority/superior. After just dropping X1X, they can't really push a new console this year...X1X isn't even a year old yet. They boxed themselves into X1 for a while. Meanwhile, with inferior hardware, Sony's still winning by a mile, and more content on the way. There's zero reason for Sony to disrupt their current hardware dominance and give MS a chance to just one-up their hardware again. They'll delay PS5 until as long as they can to milk the current winning situation. No reason to build disruption into your very stable market unforced. And with hardware tech not evolving that much in the past 5 years....a PS5 wouldn't bring much in the next year. What could they put in a box for $400 that wold be massively superior to their already $400 box to excite the crowd? They kind of screwed themselves with the mid-gen bumps. X1X is noticibly more powerful and runs $500 already. That will drop. But what will sony do, drop a $500 box and say "it's somewhat better than X1X? They're not going to subsidize hardware again and give you SLI Titans and an i7 equivalent for $400. And a $600 box is something they learned their lesson on.
No, 2019 is not the year of announcing new consoles.
@TonyTyga90,
Epic was pressured by Sony to implement this block when thy launched it on the Playstaion store. Epic can easily make a patch and unblock it. Sony would be steaming mad, but they can still do it. When Fortnite was first launched it was a small game with a small userbase, so Sony had the upperhand and they could "Force" Epic to implement these features if they wanted to put this out on PS4, now the situation has changed. Fortine has became so big, that Epic has the upper hand. They can easily say " Let us remove the block or were pulling Fortnite off the store". If Epic said that to Sony, the executives would start freaking out, losing one of the top games in the industry off their platform would hurt their business tremendously and the'll be "forced" to give in. That why all the cards are in Epic Games hand.
@Donni well that's a nice Fairy Tale. We are all glad you have further insight into the matter than the companies themselves don't release publicly. I only have the debates based in fact, therefore I'm just going to let this discussion die. Good luck with your petition.
@RedMageLanakyn Sony thanks you for your service. Do send us your account so we can chip in.
On a serious note, cross-play is the future. If Sony wants to remain in the stone age that's their prerogative. The market will leave them behind anyway
@NEStalgia "No, 2019 is not the year of announcing new consoles."
Well here's my recently modified take in case I haven't told it to yo a dozen times already.
Sony had almost nothing new at E3. Their presentation was based on 4 games, w/ a couple of surprise announcements like RE2 and Nioh 2. Which means they probably don't have much new to announce for PS4 exclusives b/c anything new has moved to PS5.
People are guessing Ghosts in April and TLoU2 in the fall. Nobody thinks much of a date on Death Stranding, I highly doubt it releases on PS4 before PS5 launches, if ever, sort of like The Last Guardian was shown on PS3 hardware for a PS3 release even though PS3 coudln't run it.
So that means by the end of 2019 most of the big AAA PS4 games will be out. And Sony must not have too many more big PS4 games or they would have shown more at E3. So if Sony doesn't announce PS5 at E3 what do they talk about? TLoU2 and Death Stranding for the 4th time and that's it? They know MS won E3, they need to get their E3 mojo back, and they do that by announcing PS5.
Announce PS5 at E3, show off a few games - H:ZD2, GoW2 - date it for spring 2020. that's gives them all of 2019 to sell PS4 games and a few more Pro, yet get people excited for a PS5 in 2020.
And as much as I don't really like a console launch in the spring it worked for Switch, and Sony planned it for PS3 before delays due to the blu-ray drive. And PS4 launched in Feb in Japan. And Sony seems to like it's big games in Feb/March - Horizon, God of War, Bloodbourne, and U4 was May.
So maybe they wouldn't sell a lot of PS4 holiday 2019 w/ PS5 near, but how many more PS4 are they really going to sell in 2019 regardless? It's already near 80mil, what PS3 sold. This holiday w/ Spiderman and RDR2 and next spring w/ either Ghosts or TLouU2 gets them close to 100mil. Who is the market for a PS4 holiday 2020? Though they will continue to sell them as the $200 alternative to the $400 PS5. That's what these are for.
And while you're right, PS5 may not be much more than X1X, it still gets it on par and better than PS4 Pro. Native 4k, 1TB HDD at least, 4k blu ray drive, hopefully a better PSVR set-up for PSVR 2, no breakout box, just 1 wire. Having it launch early 2020 gives the world a chance to catch up w/ 4k tv's holiday 2019 when half of US homes will have 4k tvs. Probably mostly gamers.
https://www.tellusventure.com/blog/4k-tv-will-be-in-half-of-u-s-homes-by-end-of-2019/
Waiting until 2020 to announce it for a holiday 2020 launch or later leaves them with nothing to talk about at E3 2019, even less to talk about at PSX Dec 2019 or The Game Awards December 2019. PS4 AAA exclusive games will be almost all released by then. And everybody has already been talking about it all this year, if they dont' have it at E3 next year people will be posting "blah, blah, blah" memes all over Sony's social media.
Now they could delay the launch until holiday 2020, but they need to announce it by E3 2019. PS4 sales will have run their course by then, they have nothing to lose by an early announcement but E3 to win.
@rjejr Here's the thing. To hit $400 on current hardware, a PS5 really CAN'T be much more than an X1X or slightly more. So there's no incentive to announce it now unless they feel they need to to get an upper hand on MS. And MS can't because they just released X1X. Sony almost NEVER benefits from going first. They won this gen specifically by not going first. They crushed Saturn by not going first. They see what the other guy does and adjust to be just a bit better. That's their thing and it's worked for decades. If they change now they're insane.
And if it is just a "somewhat better X1X", that also means the games they're making for PS5 can be shifted to the 4. So only show what you know you're selling this year, wait and see what you need to show next year. Keep the cards close, like Nintendo, stay nimble. They won't move unless they feel they must move, and that lets them make a stronger machine on the hardware of that moment in time as well. They have the upper hand now. MS put their cards on the table with X which guaranteed they're staying with this gen for a few more years. That bought Sony all the breathing room they needed to sit on status quo. And if they launch a "slightly better not that exciting X1X" soon, that gives MS a guaranteed one-up a year or two later. Sony doesn't really go for that.
"Half of US homes will have 4k TVs"....yeah and less than half of those will actually be running 4k/60
Sony kind of wrecked their presentations by showing 10 years of games years ago. So every year as things release, it feels empty because it's what we already saw. I feel like now they're copying Nintendo. Yes, holding off for PS5 games but holding off knowing they already shipped much of what was in development for ANY console right now in 2 years (fighting off Switch in the homeland and silencing any 1S/1X hype) and now have to play "normal" rather than 'years of dreams" I don't think the lineup at E3 was indicative of a pending PS5 specifically. I think it's a messaging shift more than a strategy planning.
@NEStalgia Did you read about the new AMD PS5 graphics chip being ready for 2020?
https://wccftech.com/exclusive-amd-navi-gpu-roadmap-cost-zen/
Before reading that, and a few other E3 comments regarding Ghosts, I was on the "PS5 holiday 2019" bandwagon, based on everything I told you before and thinking they wouldn't want to wait and launch early 2020.
So for me even early 2020 is later than what Id' been thinking the past year or so, PS5 holiday 2019. Holiday 2020 is the latest I can imagine and only that if they have manufacturing woes.
PS4 launched in Nov 2013, so holiday 2019 would be 6 years, long enough for a new console. Holiday 2020 would be 7 years. I really can't imagine any scenario Sony wants to wait more than 7 years to launch new hardware. All anybody would be talking about is how Sony has lost the plot. People who bought a PS4 in 2013, 2014, 2015, would be ready to move on by now, or 2019, by 2020 if there isn't a new PS5 they'll buy a X1X or PC or Switch. Sony risks losing 20-30 million early adopters if PS5 isn't out in 2020.
The Pro wasn't a new console, it was an iteration that Sony has done every single generation since the first w/ that tiny PSOne. Then PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim and then PS3 Slimmer - which is a piece of cheap plastic I own. PS4 had the Slim and the Pro. Having the Pro be out for 3 1/2 - 4 years before a new console is plenty of time for those people to get their moneys' worth. PS4 Pro isn't a new console, it didn't even get the exclusive games that NEW 3DS had. Zero exclusives, it's just a speed up PS4. 3 years holiday 2019 would be plenty, 3 1/2 March 2020 more than enough to justify it's existence. 4 years between holiday 2016 and holiday 2020 it might as well be a new console generation. Nobody bought a PS4 Pro thinking it would be more than 4 years before PS5. Nobody. And nobody bought a PS4 thinking it would be more than 7 years for PS5.
I do think Sony might prefer the other consoles launch first, but really X1X at $500 was almost next gen anyway. Switch is technically next gen already, it came after Wii U which is the same gen as PS4/X1 so Nintnedo already did go first and MS sort of went first. It's Sony's turn to go, they are the ones getting long in the tooth.
7 year old PS4 and 4 year old PS4 Pro holiday 2020 is long enough. But I still like early 2020 to launch alongside H:ZD 2 and a couple of 4k remasters. Maybe PSVR 2 as well, that screen resolution is pretty bad but no reason to launch PSVR 2 until PS5.
@rjejr It's not about how many years anymore, though. Generations are done in that sense. XBox launched a new console THIS Christmas. Playstation launched one LAST Christmas. Years mean nothing now, it's about where the market is, and where their opportunity is. What does launching in 2020 get them that they don't have now? What will not launching it lose them? Will a rival overtake them in that time? Their only rival has less chances to launch than they do. So why launch it and inevitably have the worse hardware within a year? If they were fixed to years, there would be no Pro/X, and THIS E3 would have launched new consoles. But they changed the game 2 years ago. The rules are different now.
MS can't do new hardware they just joined this gen 6 months ago with top end hardware. And as a result Sony doesn't need to do new hardware, otherwise they're only cannibalizing themselves.
PS4 Pro won't be 7 years old in 2020, PS4 Pro will be 4 years old at HOLIDAY 2020. I can see holiday 2020, but wouldn't even doubt 2021. X1X would be 3. That would be risky.
And for what, modest improvements?
Pro wasn't an iteration like the Slim. Slim is an iteration like Slim. Pro is something they haven't done before. Pro didn't get exclusives but it got games that ran or looked like dog poo on the non pro. The message is "nothing is exclusive, but you really need to upgrade." X is doing that even moreso. But you're right, 4 years is fine for it. But they still don't need to move in 2020. At least not SO far, and they will keep an eye for changes. If PS4 does 2020 and isn't significantly over X1X, Sony breaks their ability to watch their competition and follow. They hand the power to control the hardware lead to MS.....and that isn't a good position for Sony. X is looking less stupid by the day
Plus Sony talked about no more generations and staying compatible. So it could be a Pro Plus. I don't think they're thinking that anymore though. But MS is. So X2 and X will likely play together. Will Pro and 5?
I still say holiday 2020 earliest UNLESS there's a big shift to X1X in the meantime which I don't see happeing. Gains, but no shift.
This is very interesting as a legal matter and part of the pitfalls of digital games, but I just don't get fortnite, I tried to play it for about 20 or 30 minutes, and it is so boring, like nothing happens, I thought it would be fun and interesting, but I just cannot get over the extremely slow pacing.
I'm pretty sure if the EU investigated they'd find it anti-competitive.
@NEStalgia "I still say holiday 2020 earliest"
Well it can still be holiday 2020 and they announce it at E3 2019. That would be crazy early and not too bright but Iwata said "NX" at least a full 2 years before Switch and Reggie kept saying "we're not talking abut NX at this E3" at the following E3 so there is precedent for some craziness by Sony. And since MS basically did talk about next gen at this E3 even if off the cuff at the end Sony would be the only company not talking about new hardware by next E3 if they don't. Nintneod could be on to New switch by then. Or Switch Mini or something. Hardware gets people talking, Sony can't keep quiet forever.
@rjejr 1.5 years of hype? Well, so far ms had said their engineers are deep into designing the next generation Xbox, and they said it like nx... To say that streaming isn't replacing hardware. They showed a shadow rectangle in screen. Sony can say "were still awaiting greatness in r&d" and show a rectangle and they're up to date for another 3 years . Nintendo says they're always working in New hardware so they're set.
If Sony wants people talking they can announce Vitae.
Or, being Sony, they'll unveil the first hybrid console, portable, and mini disc player ever made. It will have blue and orange detachable DualPulse controllers, neither if which have a dpad. It will be backward compatible....... With memory stick duo. It's called the Playstation SwapStation.
It will retail for 399.99. the crowd will go wild.
You're now crying because you know I'm right.
@NEStalgia PS5 will have no TV out, only work with PSVR 2. They'll announce dual PSVR supported games for year 2, but then in year 3 announce PS5 can't actually handle 2 PSVR headsets at once, but it's ok PS6 will be out in only 2 more years and have TV out.
I'm just glad I started playing Fortnite on my Xbox, Just look at Sony being such ball busters. I haven't touched my PS4 in months. Nothing Sony is offering recently has appealed to me. And this whole thing has left a sour taste in my mouth now considering Sony.
@Agramonte yea it only takes spending $200 once on a game, then having that game locked to a platform to piss off your customers, kinda like you’re seeing now. not to mention the ps4 is not innovative. you seem like you’ll be surprised by sony’s eventual position. this will not continue, mark my words. game devs already finding ways to bring this to court for monopolistic pratices.
We can't even access stuff we bought on our Nintendo account on the next Nintendo console and we get at this? Double standards guys, c'mon. I am looking at you, BOTW season pass.
@tekknik For me to play Rocket League on Switch I was told I needed to start over. My account and everything I bought was locked on PC (cross play or not)
I decided not worth loosing everything. Psyonix didn't care - Nintendo knew I wasn't going to toss my Switch and not get to play Metroid and FireEmblem over Rocket League so they didn't care either.
They all do it - Nintendo, Microsoft, SONY, Activision, EA at one point or another. Thing is, only gets pointed out when it is convenient.
Not surprised at all - I just do not put all my eggs with the "generation leader". When Nintendo tries to screw me with expensive cartridge - I buy it on PS4. When SONY wants to screw me with ONline Play - I buy it on PC. I keep my options open.
@rjejr You forgot the live AM/FM radio that will be built into it (but removed on the revision 2 model).
@NEStalgia "live AM/FM radio"
They'll probably just put in the AM/FM antennae but forget to build the radio app.
@rjejr (*RadioStation app coming after launch. Visit radio.playstation.com for details, and subscription fees for antenna activation.)
Sony will probably get spam saying "let us play Fortnite on our Switches with our account associated with Ps4 otherwise, we will abandon you!" So this restriction won t get Sony any money.
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