Just recently Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water arrived in North America as a download-only game, making it a relatively high-profile retail title to be exclusive to the eShop. It's happened in the past with Ace Attorney titles, yet for fans of the niche horror series - developed by Koei Tecmo - this latest download release was a major disappointment. When you add in patents and loose talk of future consoles being purely driven by downloads and streaming, with no discs at all, you have a tricky topic for gamers and anyone with a passion for the medium.
The problem with Fatal Frame has arguably been crystallised by the Wii U's own limitations in terms of the pitiful storage included with the system. Sure, 32GB - or about 27GB that's actually available - will download quite a few first-party Nintendo games, but one meaty download (like the 15GB+ for Fatal Frame among others) and suddenly an external hard drive becomes mandatory. For many tech-savvy dedicated gamers that's normal - albeit a potentially unwelcome added cost - but for those a little less engaged in modern trends that could be a sudden headache. The realisation that an extra hard drive with a price (probably) of a full retail game isn't one that'll fill many hearts with joy.
Even accounting for the fact that many of its games are smaller sizes than on other current gen systems, 32GB doesn't go as far as 500GB on a PS4, for example, even with 30-40GB mandatory retail downloads off the disc on the latter. It was daft when Nintendo announced the hard drive sizes - the 8GB Basic model in particular - back in 2012, and it seems even dafter now.
That's not the core topic I want to tackle here - and I've marked this as an editorial as it's very much my own perspective rather than the site's - but rather the fact that the market (and particular segments of it) still like physical media a lot. That alone should limit fears of a download-only future, assuming Nintendo wouldn't be so bold - I doubt it will - with the NX.
We recently ran some polls on download retail games that weren't particularly surprising; in thousands of votes cast a good percentage (roughly half) were hesitant or even against a future revolving solely around downloads. It's tempting for some to point at those perspectives and make accusations of voters fearing progress, or being old-fashioned; I think it's wrong to make those claims.
I think what we're seeing in video games draws parallels to what's been happening in the book market for a few years. When eBooks began to gain rapidly in market share - largely driven by the original 'e-ink' Kindle and Amazon's extremely aggressive pricing - there was talk of a print apocalypse, with physical books doomed to irrelevance. Despite running a small eBook business for two years I never believed that, and was called naïve for insisting that the rapid digital growth would end and that eBooks and print would find their respective levels. There would be casualties for print as its market was reduced, naturally, but as a whole it would survive.
Print has declined, particularly in newspapers and magazines, but in terms of books it's showing signs of renewal. Just recently one of the UK's biggest book retailers dropped the Kindle, reporting that its print sales are actually starting to rise. After a period of trauma the print industry seems to be finding its feet; its market is smaller but it can now adjust and re-focus its efforts. Plenty are still spending a lot of money to read eBooks on phones and tablets - perhaps less so dedicated e-ink systems - yet good numbers also buy physical books.
I think that's a key lesson for the games industry to heed moving forward - not to try and destroy one distribution method to support the other, but to keep both in play. Some point to the billions of dollars made in iOS and Android gaming, as if that's proof of the prevalence of downloads. Well, that's apples and oranges, as smartphones are entirely virtual devices.
Though the Wii U has had a poor generation in sales, we should recognise the strong performance enjoyed by PS4 and Xbox One, and the fact that they still have healthy physical retail markets despite the fact the discs are actually largely redundant. Ultimately these systems install the game onto the hard drive anyway, and the disc is just there for the sake of appearances; yet that's the point - the market demands that physical media stay at the core of the dedicated gaming business. The discs may be meaningless, but it's the sentiment, packaging and options for selling and passing them on that adds value to the offering.
I think I'm an example of someone that typically dips toes in both sides. Games like Animal Crossing: New Leaf or Splatoon, titles I wanted but wasn't sure I'd love, I bought as downloads. Something like Mario Kart 8, though, and I had to have the disc. Special editions are also important - examples included the steelbook with The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D that I just had to have, and the Super Mario Maker bundle with the amiibo and gorgeous hardback book. Superficial those desires may be, but they're desires nevertheless - it's human nature to desire nice objects and preserve them, and I don't think that can be trained out of millions of gamers just because it might be convenient for platform holders and publishers.
I also believe that paying attention to physical media can foster loyalty and respect from consumers. Nintendo's rather good at this with its special editions, and I was struck by a copy of The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt that I picked up in my local game store; sometimes its nice to help pay someone's salary in a shop. It wasn't a special edition, but I opened it up and there was a story booklet, a lovely map and some stickers. The story booklet was charming (and helped as it's my first game in the series) and the map was a fantastic touch. The publisher didn't need to include these as standard, but it impressed me right from the off; my relationship with the game was off to the best possible start.
Little touches like this can be a key part in the future of physical retail. Downloads will always offer convenience and accessibility, yet buying the disc with nice (and cheap to produce) extras gives them their own appeal. This by extension helps keep game stores in business through trade-ins and customers through the door; trading in downloads isn't an option on consoles, remember.
At the moment the games industry is still in a weird place with its balance of download and physical retail business. Download stores are often pricey as publishers aim to keep retailers sweet, and a lot of physical media annoyingly lacks the courtesy of a decent manual. I can see a future where console manufacturers and bricks-and-mortar stores get real and sell downloads for a definitive $5 less than the physical media, with the disc copies having more incidental extras (like posters, manuals) to sweeten the deal. Quite how soon that'll happen - if at all - is tricky to guess.
Ultimately, though, I'd like to see the debate about downloads vs. physical media move on from choosing one over the other. There are still billions of dollars being made in game stores selling both discs and - yes - download cards, and likewise with online retailers selling boxes. There are plenty of gamers that want physical media for reasons of nostalgia, convenience - such as trade-ins and swapping with friends - or because they don't read a load of gaming press to keep up with all the ins and outs of the industry. Some just want to buy the latest Call of Duty, boxed, in a shop, like they do every year.
So the debate should be how to make the most of both worlds. How downloads can be incentivised for convenience - such as cross-play, plus Nintendo does some decent promotions - and how physical retail can improve. Nintendo, for its part, needs to make sure that NX is in all the major retail outlets and make a success out of it to stay there. If you ditch the high street, you're giving up a huge market.
Ultimately, the conversation needs to stay respectful of both sides. Those who are download fans need to understand why Fatal Frame fans in North America that prefer a disc are upset, and likewise those with a love of boxes and special editions also need to accept the reasoning of those happy to load up a hard drive with files. It's difficult in a world where 'console wars' can be a thing, but seeing the other side helps.
We might as well get along. Downloads aren't going anywhere, and neither are discs.
Comments 204
I expect we will first be seeing a different type of physical medium first before digital only is the thing. If we are not to get rid of physical then physical needs to evolve so it can update just like digital. Then, if I uninstall the game, reinstalling it will result it being the most up to date version before uninstall, not the release version.
That's the problem. It's always 'Too soon' or 'now's not the right time'. At some point, one company has to start it and set the trend for other companies to follow.
I honestly find it worrying that so many people are so ready to heap praise on Nintendo for thinking about a discless console (assuming it's all digital). All digital just isn't possible for most people. I have a 300GB internet cap for my service provider. With game sizes getting bigger, it's simply unfeasible and outright crazy to want an all-digital future.
no, the future lies in compromise. In which digital and physical goods coexist, it shouldn't be one of the other.
Apple's insane profits from iOS's digital only world say hi.
One time my internet provider have us 10 gigabytes for $90!
Good thoughts. Unfortunately my first real experience with being able to download retail games to my system was with the Wii U here so I wasnt smart about it. The internal storage is pathetic at best and now Im backed into a corner and cant download anything. But my 3DS has a massive SD card so I rather like downloading everthing on there. The bad thing with that is that I have to hope I love it...or Im stuck with it forever. Ive made mistakes there too.
So I think Ive learned the ropes now: Indie titles, virtual console titles and the like will be digital...everything else will be disc.
I don't believe the industry will go digital-only for quite some time, but more individual titles will, for the simple fact that production and distribution costs are so much lower that it allows more risks to be taken and a wider range of content to be produced. The comparison with print is instructive. How many websites like Nintendo Life would there be if they were printed and not web-based?
If they would mail the special edition physical items for people who decide to download versus physical retail, then I wouldn't mind downloading more. I bought a 1TB hard drive about a year ago and I still buy physical at times because I want what comes with the game. It's also convenient to have a game to trade if it sucks. They would also convince me download more if they discounted the download price being as you are missing special items that come with game and are unable to trade. Not to mention the lack of a replacement rewards system. I have temporarily stopped all Nintendo purchasing until they have a new rewards system. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh. Bout time the Lord giveths-Right? But death of the disc is bad. I believe there should still be the option.
I prefer digital as I can download the games I own anytime (we just need a better account system and cheaper price). But I can see it's a problem to those who have limited/slow internet access.
"Increase in downloads doesn't equal death for discs."
Much like the "there will always be a market for dedicated handhelds" argument, that is completely true, but eventually they will stop when it becomes unviable to do so (ie when the costs heavily outweigh the benefits).
So yes, there will always be a market of people who will buy physical copies or buy dedicated handhelds, but eventually that group of people will be too small to make it worthwhile to cater towards.
I know I have kind of an extreme position in this (I'm all pro downloads and don't get why not everyone thinks the same, just out of practical reasons), but I'll try to stay as open as possible.
While it may be true that it could be smart to keep both - retail and download - in play, I think progress can only come if you somewhat force it. For example, if Nintendo hadn't developed the Wii, it's likely that many of today's products (including modern Smartphones, smartphone games, several smaller products and projects) wouldn't exist today or at least were far less successful. So Nintendo took a bold step to introduce motion controls to the world. I think Nintendo should (eventually) do the same with download-only. The question is only when?
Regarding the strong retail sale numbers of PS4 and XB1: While I think that the userbase of those consoles tends to be (not is!) less adventurous regarding innovation, I honestly doubt that a significant number of players would seriously protest if the console manufacturers would got only-digital. After all, what a gamer cares about is to play games. So I bet 80-90% of all gamers would - just because they are forced to - accept the new policy and arrange themselves with download-only. Soon enough, they would get used to it and see the benefits.
But this will never happen if none of the involved companies don't push the players into that direction. It takes courage, not cowardice, to innovate.
"The discs may be meaningless, but it's the sentiment, packaging and options for selling and passing them on that adds value to the offering."
That's exactly what I can't get my head around. Although even one of my friends is a big collector, buys every special edition (sometimes even twice) and doesn't open the packages.
I grew up with games like everyone else, but I don't see the "charm" of a box with a disc in it. It's nothing special, just some piece of paper and plastic. I'd understand more if someone puts sentiment into an Amiibo or other kinds of toys, but not how there can be sentiment for packaging material which basically is nothing more than future garbage (I mean that literally, not metaphorically).
But who says there can't be a way to please everyone?
Retail stores could continue to sell games in boxes, with special editions and so on. But instead of a useless disc (that only downloads the game anyway) they could just put a download code into that box (or as a compromise, an SD card or some other kind of flash drive). This would also save a lot of waste that otherwise will pollute our endangered planet.
@Operative That would be no problem at all. Imagine retail game shops having a download station, where you can download the game you just bought with the code that's inside the box.
But seriously, I think most internet users have a fast enough connection and most don't have a cap, so these local download stations would only serve the minority that can't get the games on the regular way.
How many people here actually look forward to Nintendo Download Thursdays? Because I sure do.
I imagine it will be quite some time before the majority of games are digital but for now if that is the only way I can get niche titles like Fatal Frame then so be it. I prefer retail like most people but I am not going to pass up the opportunity to play a great game just because it didn't come in a box. The "Major" titles will still be available at stores and it makes sense to not have a huge production run of a game that will almost certainly not sell very well. I think we should be happy we get games like Fatal Frame at all, since Nintendo must realize that it won't sell big at retail. Us getting the game seems more like fan service than anything else.
Totally agreed. Digital isnt the future, at least under the current non-Steam console sales model
@erv Smart devices and dedicated video game consoles are two different things, like comparing apples and oranges.
@shani the big roadblock to me is price. $60 for a new digital title seems fully ridiculous. Its a ripoff, pure and simple. No shipping, manufacturing, or brick and mortar store costs should equal a much lower price. Along with the lack of resale or borrowing value, which also means its worth much less to me.
I can buy new $60 games for $47 at best buy, often with $10 reward certs. Once digital beats that price, i am fully behind that model. Until then, convenience doesn't incentive paying so much more for so much less for digital
Physical releases with digital download codes? Best of both worlds if you ask me.
I'm happy to do all download with the Wii U and my PS3; the latter is eased by an internal 500GB hard drive and I'd like to note that in addition Sony released a Super Slim with a surprisingly meagre 12GB internal flash which is cheaper and clearly aimed at people who mainly buy discs.
I will say that downloading everything has made me a lot more conservative in my purchases, but frankly given I spend from £20-70/mo. on games I could use some kind of restraint.
I do agree there's still a place for physical media generally, but I think games aren't in a protected space like music with vinyl fans or books where coffee table books and the like aren't easily replaced by digital versions. The fact is that all games are digital; the only difference is the media they're stored on, whether disc or cart or downloaded to a hard drive or flash media.
There is no reason why current limitations of people's internet connections couldn't be overcome by in-store kiosks where you could do the download and burn to disc or SD. Special editions could still exist with an enclosed download code instead of media.
I do think the days are numbered for physical media, but I have nothing against it per se. I will say that if downloads make it easier to get niche titles from Japan I think it should be embraced rather than railed against, though I do sympathise with the folk who feel left out.
I love physical releases, without them I wouldn't have my great physical game collection (150+ games, from wich 20+ ps4, 50+ ps3, 15+ wiiU and 60+ wii, pc, 3ds, ds, psvita games. I know I know, I have a shopping/buying stuff addiction.)
Digital should be at least 50% of physical retail price. I won't pay $60 for a download. That's beyond ridiculous.
Download only has no future for AAA games. Yeah maybe even people with slow internet get gigabit internet somewhen but until then, games have grown even bigger. Higher resolution textures for example. In 10 years most AAA titles will maybe be over 100 GB and my crappy internet connection will stay the same.
Who wants their customers to download with bad speed? There always has to be an alternative.
The only problem I have with Digital games is you are still at the mercy of the server provider. When the new console comes out will we have the wii u virtualized on that system in the way that the Wii is on the Wii U. If not and when that hardware becomes discontinued and there is no more support from Nintendo what do you do when your hardware dies and your eShop can no longer be transferred from the Dead device.
Right now I have a DSi XL that has Origon Trail on it and it was a non transferable game to the 3DS. As soon as that Handheld dies that licence dies with it.
I do agree with the price points being similar to retail being an issue. I think the stupidest case is the Starcraft 2 Collectors vs the digital Deluxe. Same price, same content digitally but the the collectors had the art book and audio cd that did not come with the Digital Deluxe.
Buying downloads I find just as addictive, but under different conditions. I don't want to own a.NES, but have loved building up a folder full of titles on my Wii U, and similarly sold a reasonably collectable SNES DKC crate bundle in order to switch to the VC's offerings (although sadly sacrificing the minor classic Unirally and perhaps Yoshi's Island too if the ports aren't quite the same). Perhaps adding games via the Virtual Console is different, but I was recently rather excited by the news that the Wii's Resident Evil 4 would be arriving on the Wii U, but had to re-think this when u realised I could buy a new physical copy for £6 - I was all ready to purchase a download, but the physical delivery just seemed less urgent and less of a requirement. As I said earlier though, new games is completely different and pricing is absolutely key. Also, it's not just the re-selling of games that becomes obselete but the passing on of the console itself, which most likely many will feel literally too invested in to sell for a fraction of what they spent building up their collection.
usb drives work just fine for me. I know somewhere it warned about potential lag. I haven't experienced any at all.
@Mando44646
Well first of all: What's the difference? You get the exact same game, so of course the price is the same. I'm aware they save some packaging and shipping costs, but they also have costs for maintaining the servers too. But why do you care about it anyway?
Besides, what you wrote about the prices only applies to the US. Here in Europe (or Germany, at least, but I'm pretty sure it's similar in our neighbor countries) it seems to be a bit different. For example: You can buy Splatoon for 39,99€ at retail stores (some electronic store chains even have it for 37,99), at Amazon for 36,60€ (retail version) or as a download key for 34,99€. So it's already cheaper than the disc version.
But again, who cares? I pay money for the ideational worth of the game, not for the medium it's delivered with. So I don't care whether the medium of a game (I mean literally ANY kind of game) is a disc, a flash drive, my internet cable, a wooden box, some piece of paper or just my imagination. The only important thing is that the game is good.
Nothing surprising here. Discs aren't going anywhere, and neither is the virtual console. Older games that take up small amounts of memory are the perfect kind of download title. New releases that take up a ton of memory are not something I would download. I'm glad that the option is there, especially for vc though.
I don't mind if some games go digital only but would like if there was easier methods of having said games on both wii u and 3ds without needing to buy both versions, granted some games are starting to do this but that's just my 2 cents on the situation.
Prices on digital are joke.. I prefer go to super market and save up to 15 pounds on a game. 2 games and I save money for indie or third psychical copy.. Digital copy should be cheaper
@shani having a download kiosk in a store utterly defeats the purpose of going digital anyway. And it definitely wouldn't be a minority. I have comcast, as does a huge chunk of the country. And that's just the US. In other countries, internet speeds are a thousand times worse. Digital only is extremely restrictive and prohibitive for a large number of consumers.
The PS4 and Xbox one discs aren't useless, and I have no idea why anyone would say they were. Yes, it installs onto the harddrive, but by buying the disc with 80+GB of information on it, you're saving yourself hours if not days of downloading the data using your own internet. The discs are far from useless.
"Increases in downloads don't equal death for discs"
Well, it does for Nintendo!
You could think Nintendo needs retail presence to keep the people talking, but they can achieve that just with some cases with only a download-code like they did with the Mario vs Dk game (though that was already a e-shop game, but you get the point).
And they could still do commercials. Think of those over-expensive commercials that do cost much more then the actual games (Candy crush says hello)!
Haven't read, just saw title. I agree from a company view but disagree from a consumer point of view
Anyone who honestly believes physical media is irrelevant or will be in the next generation or so is delusional. The large majority of consumers still buy games physically. The reason why games like Call of Duty, FIFA, and Grand Theft Auto rake in such goof software sales is because casuals see the game at a GameStop, GAME, or Best Buy and buy it due to the brand name. Without physical sales, the entire industry will shrink drastically, because software sales will take a hit globally.
Now that may not be the case in the distant future, as digital download sales gradually increase. But as of right now, physical software sales are still vital for the industry to maintain stability.
@erv my steam library of 300 titles smiles sadly at my local best buys selection of 6 pc games
I do prefer retail physical copies and hope that Nintendo goes down the cartridge route if they don't want to do disk n optical drive instead of just download only.
Discs ARE becoming a dying breed, and ARE being replaced by downloads. I'm not sure how many of you know this, but most PC retail games don't even have the game on the disc. You literally still have to download the game, destroying any convenience of having a physical copy. It's a recent change made by the gaming industry to combat piracy and used game sales. I suspect this to start leaking over to consoles in a decade or so.
Be aware that I'm very against them doing this, my internet is slower than a tortoise, but I'm not an idiot. I know that this will only advance in the direction its headed, and I know that I'll either have to adapt or stop playing games in general. I'm so not looking forward to waiting weeks for Fallout 4 to download onto my computer though... Arkham Knight alone took a week....
@yuwarite I think steam started it over a decade ago. Aren't PC games now 70% digital?
In all honesty, not everyone has the internet, and not everybody wants it...plus, if your internet server goes down for a long time, how are you to do anything with an console (like the lock buttons on the downloaded PS4 games). I like having the actual game in my collection, not downloads. I like the little indie downloads on the systems, but I would rather have them on disc format instead (which I know some have done so with the PS4 and XONE and even a few on the WII U). Basically what I think, is they should have them out as both download and retail (unless the download title is a cheap little title). I found it funny how Ken's Rage 2 came out as a retail game for PS3, but as a digital download for Wii U...never got that. Other than that, 500GB on the PS4 is still not enough, as I have 22 games downloaded and 27 retail, and out of space. On the Wii U, I have 21 retail and 48 downloads, and still have 2GB left.
I do prefer physical media that doesn't require online.
It's much more permanent, and it gives ownership to the buyer.
But I wish we could get rid of slow optical discs, or drastically make them better. It's a nuisance being forced to install games to the hard drive on a console, but constantly loading from the disc works terrible as Wii U has shown.
I'd like to return to fast cartridge media, if only the cost would be reasonable.
Maybe some day a good solution will be found.
I just like to have a cartridge/disc with case in my hands.
@westman98 You don't seem to understand that it WILL in fact be irrelevant. Not because there isn't a demand, there is a demand. It's because most games that are released recently AREN'T physical. Yes, you get a box. Yes, you get a disc. What you don't get however, is the actual game on that disc. The game itself has to be downloaded off of the internet. Physical copies are turning into glorified steam keys.
Game companies find that it's cheaper not to have as many physical copies, so their solution is to make physical copies obsolete. How? By making them physical digital download keys with extra plastic. They save so much money, and gain so much more if people aren't selling around used copies and pirating the games. This hurts people like me though, because my internet is awful and I just want to install the game from discs to avoid that issue altogether.
My concern is that it's only really hardcore gamers who appreciate physical, and that most kids are now raised on mobile gaming, setting their expectations accordingly. If Nintendo doesn't want to get stuck in a niche of just people who grew up playing SNES, it needs to really up its game on the digital side.
Making digital better doesn't have to come at the cost of physical, but the approach to physical needs to evolve. For example, I don't think the future is in optical disks. A USB thumb drive for the special edition, along with the posters and plushies for sure! In fact, I think this will be a big opportunity for Indies and smaller devs in the future, what with 3D printing and building small but super dedicated communities around a game. Still, I feel digital should eventually become the norm (slowly phased in over the next 5 or 10 years). Physical as the primary distribution method is long term going to limit / hurt core gaming.
@BlatantlyHeroic
Yeah a digital download only world will eventually happen as consoles become more PC-like. But physical software sales are still very significant to this industry right now, game installs or not.
I have a good mix of both physical and downloadable titles. Storage space does become an issue with the wiiu but while flash drives get cheaper and cheaper I am able to keep up with my downloads. My 3DS on the other hand... I got a large SD card to start with ( I had a decent DSiware collection to transfer) and even though I have bought a lot of physical copies of games, I tend to pick up download copies on the eshop sales and transfer my saves over and pass my physical copies on to my kids. The thing is storage is getting cheaper, faster and more reliable so sometimes its just more convenient to have it downloaded and in one place. I don't think its time to get rid of physical copies any time soon, but simultaneous retail and digital releases should be the way to go but with digital not costing any more and if possible less than its physical copy.
I actually think that digital won't really stand a chance of replacing digital until the telecom market figures out what they're doing with Internet. Lots of people here in Canada are nailed with tons and tons of overuse fees with absolutely NO option to get an unlimited package. Maybe this is Canada-only, but once unlimited becomes an option for most people I think this might change.
Digital games themselves are great. I haven't exactly gone for retail downloads yet (except for retail games that were eShop only in my region), but that's because I've only wanted a handful of retail games and in those cases I could get a special edition physical copy or it was cheaper in physical or something.
"we should recognise the strong performance enjoyed by PS4 and Xbox One,"
Xbox One has strong performance? 13 mil compared to Wii U's 10 mil, having to take out the Kinect, having to drop the price multiple times, having shareholders arguing for ending the entire division?
http://learnbonds.com/120301/microsoft-corporation-msft-xbox-one-vs-ps4-fight-is-now-over/
The WiiU is a failure, but the Xbox One is closer to barely hanging on than strong performace. My wife and I just saw commercials for COD and Fallout 4, and based on those commercials she thought they were both PS4 exclusives. PS4 may not have games, but Sony has a very good marketing dept.
On topic - as others have said, discs aren't for show, they're for GBs. I have a really fast internet, I think, but I don't want to DL 40GB games. And what happens in a few years w/ 4k?
When things do go mostly digitalg mostly, not all, I predict a lot more smaller serialized games.
I also think now that toys are king somebody will figure out how to get the game inside the toys. Yoshi Wooly World, Chili Robo, SMM, USB drive inside, done. All games will ship AS swag, rather than with swag, as the article did mention. XCX comes with music on a USB drive, just put the game on there too.
I think soon they can have a disk drive off swich passed off as a update.I like the idea of a code in a box idea.
I'm not entirely sure if anyone has brought this up, but what about sales from uninformed consumers? If it was digital only console manufacturers would lose out on consumers who only see what is on the shelf. Sometimes some games are only bought just because a person can physically see it.
Going all digital IMO probably isn't a good idea right now. Not everybody has internet or good internet
@Operative I think that there will be options for those without high quality internet access, like availability of flash drives to be mailed with the game Data, however I think it will be absolutely necessary for internet access to actually play the game, so the system can check for digital rights. It sucks as I too buy almost everything on disk, but this is the way it will go I really do think there will not be anymore systems with physical media.
I pretty much always prefer getting hard copies of Nintendo's games, but I'm not against getting digital games, especially in cases of digital or nothing, which might apply to Fatal Frame. That said, I'd be very against the NX only supporting digital games. While downloading games can be convenient (even if it's often slower than going to the store), the digital market tends to be more expensive outside of major sales, and there's always that worry that, for one reason or another, you'll lose access to the games in the future. There's also a chance that the games will become unobtainable in the future due to a closure of the digital shop, so if you don't get them while it's open, you won't be able to.
I disagree with the attack on the Wii U's internal storage, though. The fact is, if the Wii U had come with more storage, it would have cost more (unless Nintendo took a loss). If that's what you want, you shouldn't have a problem paying more for storage now, since you saved money then. At least now, three years later, your dollars will buy more GBs than they would have then.
90% of my WiiU gaming is digital only. I prefer the content to be streamlined rather than read in portions from a disc (noisy, slow).
I think if Nintendo stops using discs and move to a storage card/cartridge; then they could keep physical sales while getting rid of the disc drive on the new console. I mean if we're not ready to be all digital yet, could we at least move on from disc drives?
@Operative I took it directly from this editorial:
"Though the Wii U has had a poor generation in sales, we should recognise the strong performance enjoyed by PS4 and Xbox One, and the fact that they still have healthy physical retail markets despite the fact the discs are actually largely redundant. Ultimately these systems install the game onto the hard drive anyway, and the disc is just there for the sake of appearances; yet that's the point - the market demands that physical media stay at the core of the dedicated gaming business. The discs may be meaningless, but it's the sentiment, packaging and options for selling and passing them on that adds value to the offering."
I only (unknowingly) changed 'meaningless' to 'useless', my apologies.
@shani my bad I was actually referring to the articles mention of it, not yours
good article, i agree that downloads and physical media should co-exist. the option to download is great (if the system can unquestionably accommodate the file size natively and indefinitely) but people like myself will always admire hard copies and often purchase games just because it is a special edition that includes some sweet swag.
Project Zero/Fatal Frames release is bizarre no matter where you are in the world. The digital-only version is free, but then it costs you after 30%ish of the game is complete. And if your in PAL regions you have the option to buy the physical version but it comes with loads of unnecessary extra's, that only make it too expensive for what it is. Both versions of the release of this game are very bizarre.
Why not have a demo, a digital version which costs you from the beginning. And a standard physical version of the game (that could feature a steal case or art book). Keeping it simple, on price point- therefore attracting the most attention because its reasonably priced on all formats of release.
I'm perfectly fine with games being offered as downloadable, provided I can still get a physical copy some way or another. like maybe if Nintendo offered a way for us to be sent a physical copy for free if we ordered it online if we have some sort of Nintendo membership.
@ThomasBW84 Insightful article, and I agree with many of your sentiments, also the ones concerning mutual understanding, but I do have to say that I will exclude understanding when I come across people that actually advocate digital-only as the second coming of the Messiah while being severely misinformed about the complete picture of pros vs cons. And a lot of these individuals also only seem to be able to think about themselves and not so much about how this would or should work in the rest of the world, where conditions may not be as good as where they are living. Not everyone is that privileged to be blessed with a good internet connection or happens to live in a village or town that doesn't even have the right infrastructure to support a good connection. If you're interested, you can read the rest of my musings on this hairy subject in the next comment that I will have posted beneath this one.
@rjejr I like your idea of toys with the games in them and I am in complete agreement of having to download upcoming games over the internet, who knows what kind of sizes we're going to be talking about with the next generation of consoles? I think 40GB might even be conservatively low and maybe we'll even see the return of multiple disc games if there isn't going to be a new disc medium other than Blu-ray, which in its maximum capacity can hold around 50GB. Dual layer discs can be made to hold a maximum of 200GB by means of adding more layers, but drives in consoles need to be equipped with the right laser to be able to read them, and multi-layer Blu-rays are still somewhat expensive. Now excuse me while I step onto my soapbox...
@everyone I already gave a lot of thought to this very topic and I made quite an extensive comment on it, to explain why digital-only should simply not be accepted as easily as the majority seems to do now.
If you're truly open-minded and are curious as to why we really shouldn't be so quick to embrace this, simply because the majority of the industry is probably going to go that route in some shape or form somewhere along the line, just read on beneath this comment; I've copy/pasted my original comment from the "digital-only or not?" poll so I don't have to type the same story twice, It's quite a long read, but it might just give you some ideas that haven't occurred to you yet or will at the very least create some understanding towards the anti-download-only crowd... (some parts may seem a bit out of place but that is obviously because originally, it was related to the other article)
WARNING: HUGE wall of text ahead. Continue at your own peril. I'm not responsible for any possible brain damage or your head hurting resulting from me having made you think twice about this whole digital-only stuff being such a great thing...
(needless to say I voted with the majority, being all but completely against these blasphemous, anti-gamer practices)
Wow, I've sure seen a lot of total BS... ehm, sorry: non-reasons to prefer digital over physical. Most of these download-only fans seem to have no clue whatsoever what they are actually saying yes to and they will definitely get a huge door slammed REALLY hard in their face once the provider/company decides to pull the plug on the service that is tied to the games they've downloaded, turning your console into a museum piece with a hard drive filled with next to no playable titles stored on it. VERY short-sighted, to put it mildly.
For the true gamer/collector, this move to change gaming into yet another completely disposable medium, will be the death of their hobby and even to the more casual gamer it should be very troubling (and it absolutely stupefies me that it doesn't) that millions of people are so completely willing to relinquish their hard earned money in exchange for hardly any rights in terms of ownership or possibility of reselling/exchanging older games to name but a few. Rules concerning usage of these games can be changed at the publisher's whim, thereby completely ignoring the user that bought them.
There is no (or at the very least less) personal connection with a download; I've noticed it myself with another medium, Bitcoins. Although it is not quite the same, bear with me and you will understand what I'm trying to say. I once had to handle thousands of bitcoins and I gained profit from it too, but it was just numbers on a screen and to me it didn't feel like real money, mainly because it wasn't tangible, so transferring thousands of Bitcoins to several different accounts didn't feel like handling a lot of money, it was just numbers in a computer, and not the same as counting dollar bills/banknotes, which also gives that "wow, that is a lot of money" sensation, when you see the stacks of bills grow while you're counting them.
In the early days, games were complete and although some of them obviously also had glitches or errors, they weren't game breaking for the most part. All these day one patches, online game verifications/DRM solutions are a true detriment to the enjoyment to be had from what should be a worry free hobby.
If you are that true gamer/collector (and to be clear for those that wonder, I don't mean to say a gamer OR a collector, but a gamer that is ALSO a collector) then you WILL want that box, that nicely painted disc or labeled cartridge and the occasional limited edition, with all the nice and interesting extras that come with it.
I buy a few every now and then, the last ones being two Wii games: the Skyward Sword package with the golden Wiimote+ and the Zelda concert CD, and the Xenoblade Chronicles package with the red Classic Controller Pro and on PC and on the Xbox 360 I have some nice Steel cases. Buying a box with just a limited edition controller and some scratch card with a download code for a game is just miles away from anywhere near being in the same league, if at ALL...
When I look at the many things mentioned in the 200+ comments before me about physical media, then I see a lot of things that can be remedied by the person in possession of these games, discs degrading may become an issue, depending on the quality, but also depending on the user taking care of his or her games. The same goes for scratches or other damage to discs: I still use my old consoles on a reasonably regular basis, and all my cartridges still work on my N64, and my discs all work on my GameCube and on my Dreamcast.
I take real good care of both the discs and the consoles, which means cleaning both the discs and the consoles themselves every now and then, and when you don't want to use them for a longer period of time, you store both in a cool and dark place. And I do mean cool, not freezing...
I also still own a number of Amiga computers (A500, A500+, A1200 and CD32) and these too are still in mint condition and perfect working order, and the same goes for the 3,5" disks that go into them and the CD's, most of which are now well over 20 years old.
Got kids? No problem either: store your game boxes on a higher shelf or behind a locked door, and certainly don't leave any disc in a drive for your kid to put his greasy little hands on. Any form of care, whether it is for your game collection or for anything else that is part of your hobby (like fishing, driving cars or shooting) takes effort, and the result of that effort is the knowledge and satisfaction of knowing that your games are good to go for yet another 5 to 10 years after you've taken care of them once again.
I have yet to come across a single game in my collection (and I own a LOT of games) that doesn't work anymore, regardless of which platform it is on. I am realistic enough to realize that even with good care, part of my collection will eventually be beyond repair or any care I can throw at it, but by then I will be too old to care too much about it, since I will be around 60-70 years of age and I don't see myself playing too many games then, although I have to confess that I always had the same thought about reaching the age of 40 back when I was 20, and I'm still gaming now at 45, so I may yet surprise myself...
One thing is sure, though: around that time I'm pretty confident that I will have outlasted the digital-only owners by several decades, because of them having wrecked their console by means of misuse or over-use, or the servers of their games all being discontinued so they will not be able to play a single game that they "own" anymore, while I will still be happily chugging away on all my consoles with physical media.
Clutter is also a BS reason: clean up your rooms, people! Clutter is only possible without care, games neatly stacked on shelves or in a cabinet of some sorts not only looks great: it is very easy to select the game you want straight away and you actually have a physical representation of your wealth: the games that you've invested your hard-earned money in to collect, instead of an invisible hard drive inside your console.
Sure, it is convenient in some ways, but like DVD's & Blu-rays, hard discs also degrade over time, and if you have a collection as large as mine, then I'll wager a bet that I'm much quicker at swapping a game than the people having to browse through all these titles installed on their console.
As for comparing PC downloads or Steam to console digital-only: that's also not quite the same. Besides what others have already said about Steam, there's also a gray area of solutions on those platforms that will more or less guarantee longevity of those games you bought for years to come, and those solutions aren't as easily available or convenient on consoles.
There are several groups of notorious yet kind people on the internet that provide users with dummy Steam files, negating the need of ever having to log in to verify or whatever, essentially giving you total control over the game, except for the online part, yet there are also solutions for that, and even tons of user groups that simply gather to make their own dedicated servers for their favorite games.
People on PC are still playing a lot of old games that aren't officially supported anymore, such as Counterstrike, Halflife, Team Fortress and even Quake and Doom, and other games made with the same engine. On console such solutions are next to impossible.
Consoles can of course be modded, but would you want to do that and what amount of access does it give you? If it is only for the single player part of a game, then the effort to perform such an operation may very well be hardly worth the trouble.
Personally, I've found modding primarily useful for retro gaming, to forego the whole "I can't play game X online anymore" problem, so currently my only modded console is the Wii, with emulators for nearly every system and handheld that came before the 7th generation (GameCube, PS2, Xbox) of consoles. It even runs PS1 games at a decent frame rate.
Besides my love for retro gaming, the console that I love the most is still the Dreamcast, also because all games can be played offline but mostly because with many of its games, it really gives you that classic arcade feel.
The future will probably be almost completely digital-only, but I think that it isn't as near as some people think or, strangely enough, want it to be and that is a VERY good thing. Collecting games still belongs to this generation of gamers, or at least to a significant part of the 20 and above aged gamers, that are still infected with the cartridge and disc bug.
When the time arrives that gaming goes completely digital, it really has to be such a great game on such a must-have console before I could be persuaded to even think about buying it. Digital-only is fine by me for smaller arcade games, free to play games and add-ons to games, but completely digital? No, thanks. I hope the NX will come with a nice surprise in the form of either a new type of Blu-ray but I will also be fine with some sort of High Capacity cartridge, something that is also entirely within the realm of possibilities, seeing as there are already 128GB SD cards, and they are becoming cheaper every year.
And cards would also be a good solution for all the people "worrying" (whining) about clutter, loss of space and what not. SD cards are small and they don't need to come in big boxes. They could come in 3DS-like (or even smaller) boxes and after purchase you can take them out of their box and put them all in a small carry case, for easy transportation and storage. Problem solved!
@thomasbw84 Thanks so much for the article. The diskless console idea is the only thing I worry Nintendo will do. I for one see much more value in physical media. My downloads are worth nothing to me other than the fun they provide.
Digital distribution is better for the industry.
The advantages of physical media are:
-you can trade/sell/lend your games
-overstocked physical copies can become super cheap.
-physical games in store are visible, and can attract browsers and bowsers alike.
-physical games will be playable 50 years down the road.
-no internet connection is required.
-unpatched versions of games are playable
Digital though has plenty of advantages, mostly for producers, which helps as the industry becomes riskier and riskier to invest in:
-no cost to produce physical components, and servers are cheap.
-no losses in overproduction nor outcry from underproduction.
-games do not become rare, and thus doubling in original price.
-no out of stock issues
-no need to swap games out
-easier to transport entire game library
-no waiting in line at retailers (though with high traffic, you may wait just as long for the download, but have the convenience of being at home.)
-account linking makes it possible to play games on any console anywhere, though implemented differently by 1st parties.
-you can't misplace a digital copy, nor can someone steal it.
-games can be readily available 50 years down the road.
I actually disagree with the last sentence of the article. I don't think discs are the future of physical media storage. I do see them getting phased out for SD card based storage or something similar. Disc drives can be frail and add extra expense.
Physical seems to work best for collectors, scalpers, and folks without dependable internet.
Special editions are a non-issue, because the special swag can simply given as a special offer to those who buy the game within a certain time period, offering a code or registration to find the offer. Then, they can just produce what they need, and mail it to those who ordered after the offer period expires.
It would reduce the risk of producing the swag, and encourage more offers of that nature.
Digital only is healthier for the industry, physical is only really useful for a faction of consumers.
Comparing to mobile is definitely not a fair comparison. Mobile is almost always online (whether wifi or cellular), games are almost always cheaper, and those downloads are usually 1GB or so compared to 15-40GB for eighth-gen console games.
@TheRealThanos OK let's try that again.
@rjejr Something went wrong there. I had to copy/paste your link to stare at the mug of mr. Sutherland sr.
EDIT: Aaaand he fixed it...
I mean we still have CDs and DVDs, and people download more than they buy disks (I should think anyway) and we still have physical media. Maybe by the PS6 and WiiU3 we'll have diskless consoles. Or the XB & PS brands will do some awful "disk console" and "diskless console"
@khaosklub A nice list of pros and cons you got there, sport. Unfortunately you forgot to mention the most important one in both cases: ownership of a game you've bought. With physical media you will still have the game for many, many years to come and with digital-only you are COMPLETELY at the publisher's whim, which isn't good at all and which is a position that you shouldn't want to be in.
They can pull the plug on the servers, or simply decide to make the game unplayable as a whole, even if it has some single player component that you would also be able to play without a live internet connection. Worst case scenario: if the future of console gaming is going to be cloud-based only with a streaming box sitting next to your TV, then you also run the risk of a publisher simply erasing your game or your access to it, totally ignoring the customer that has bought their product.
Those are reasons that BY FAR outweigh any pros for gamers by going digital-only. If I buy a physical copy of a game with my hard-earned money, then it is mine to keep and do with as I please (within the limits of copyrights of course) and no publisher is going to deny me the right to keep playing these games for as long as I live or for as long as my console will still work.
So no, physical isn't only useful for a fraction of users; that is an opinion, not a fact. Actually, it is better for ALL users and gives more control over that which you have bought with your own money. I explained all this (and then some) in more detail in the essay that is comment nr. 61. Go ahead, dare to read it...
@TheRealThanos OK with the futility of fighting the dystopia future out of the way, I did see my son playing Sonic Adventure on my Dream cast today, so that was cool.
I agree with what you said, but don't have the energy to fight the inevitable. There's a whole other side of your argument - not related at all to video games - about a rental society and lack of ownership. Games will go the way of Netflix at some point, we don't buy them, just rent them. And the digitalization of gaming should, in time, turn your argument on its head. Every game ever made will be available to play on a smart device, we won't need to own any thing except our smartphone, not even a display, it will just project on any surface. That might be 20 or even 50 years from now, but the future is a world of smartphones and 3D printers for the few solid objects we do need. And kids today know this, Google and Apple have told them so. Every parent alive today will look like hoarders on a TV show when their kids grow up. 1 Echo in every room, that's all they'll need. (Echo, and Alexa, is the scariest piece of technology I've ever interacted with. Not Donald Sutherland scary, but WALL-E scary. Fortunately that's a long time off.)
The only reason I still buy most of my games as a physical release is because of pricing. But even that is something I'll ignore if I think it's a game I'll be playing a lot. Not forgetting that on PC it is already a digital only ecosystem and the sky didn't exactly fall in. If anything on PC the pricing is generally more friendly than it is on consoles. But I'll get to that later.
Going through the list of concerns. I do have a 300GB data cap but most of the time I sit at around 150GB usage. And even though the speed of my line hasn't improved I have gone from a 30GB to a 300GB quota in the last 7 years or so. I'm using far more data now but I think it's fair to say my quota is increasing faster than my usage is.
With the storage concerns? Well if you want to point to that you have to think about what the trends are. 10 years ago I build myself a new PC and put a 120GB HDD in it. Same year I brought a 128GB thumb drive. The HDD was $120AU. This year? You could get a 3TB HDD for $130AU. It's gone from ~$1/GB to ~4c/GB. Have games got bigger? Sure, of course they have. But storage has got cheaper faster. So this isn't an issue.
So the progress of tech makes it inevitable at some point. So in the end it goes back to pricing again. And to be brutally honest? The physical market is fundamentally less profitable for publishers and developers. To which a cynic would whine but remember, less profitable? Lower margins, higher prices. As it is retailers are holding them to ransom. Digital should be cheaper but retailers still own most of the sales so you can understand why they don't price digital competitively. But as soon as they can distance themselves from it without a backlash? They'll do it. Remember, Microsoft did try this. It's only a matter of time before it happens for real.
It might still be a little soon to go full download since there are areas where Internet is less than favorable, but ultimately a download-only future is where we should be headed. But, for people with worser internet connections, there should be some way to acquire the full download from a store, either on an SD card or something else that can copy the media to your console.
A console should also come bundled with adequate memory to facilitate a download-only future. It doesn't have to have to be a terrabyte but it should come with enough space to last the console's lifespan for your average consumer. Which it probably doesn't, at the moment.
But ultimately, cutting down on clutter, disc errors, and other terrible problems that only physical media can cause, is what you wanna switch to digital for. I know people always argue that the ownership of the game is a problem, but freedom to do what you want with your games is something that all digital games services will be competing to do, so if the service is nastily restricting your freedom to do what you want with your games, those companies will suffer under the freer ones (like Steam!)
Nintendo will always have a physical presence in stores with toys, Amiibo, exclusive reading materials (like the Hyrule Historia) and whatever else they invent, so they're covered. The others will follow.
It's the simple pleasure of not having to switch out SMM for SSB that makes me think digital is going to be the future. I usually buy physical, but if i had the space on my hardware to have every game installed on it, i can't say i would choose switching out discs and such.
Used games is what keeps me mostly physical. I like being able to buy older or somewhat older games for a low low price. Seeing games from years and years ago on the PSN or eShop for 29.99 when it is 9.99 on a shelf at Gamestop isn't helping digital downloads.
@rjejr Nah, my arguments are rock-solid for the next few decades to come. It is indeed all inevitable, but I just loathe all these easy-acceptance crowds that fail to look into or even understand what they stand to lose for all this so-called convenience. I will drill my kids to have the same respect and understanding for these kinds of principle rights and I am lucky to be surrounded by friends and family that actually are equally smart and vigilant.
I will also never lose the energy to fight, since it is a right that you have and people are allowed to be vocal about that instead of simply bowing to industries because "that's just the way it is going to be". As I've said in my wall of text that I copy/pasted above, I'd sooner become a retro gamer when it happens, or it really has to be such a great game on such a must-have console before I could be persuaded to even think about buying it.
But although I will always be very adamant about these kind of things, I do feel old sometimes, because current day gamers simply don't seem to understand a whole lot about where their hobby actually came from and why some things are important and even useful to remember. Sometimes it is almost to a point that it feels like we are speaking another language altogether, maybe because of the generation gap, I guess. Maybe among us first generation gamers we should start using ye olde English again to have our own means of communication...
As for Netflix: they do have some good series but that is still a LONG way from being able to compete with all the real TV being broadcasted out there into the world. And the US version of Netflix has a much bigger library than the European one, so especially here things won't go that fast.
And Echo and Alexa? You're gonna have to fill me in there. I'm afraid that I haven't heard of that before... Sounds like an advanced baby phone...
@donniedarkenson @TheRealThanos I see it as the opposite, actually.(Opposite of what Thanos said, i agree with donnie) When my $400 copy of Earthbound finally gave up the battery ghost, i no longer owned a working copy of Earthbound. Nintendo and amazon weren't thrilled when i demanded a new copy, since i didnt own the game anymore, due to its age. My $10 digital download, which i got on sale for $2.50, is still mine. My Wii digital purchases from a decade ago are still on my wii u, and soon, my NX. Likewise, a $60 older PC game a friend bought yesterday felt to the ground, and cracked- the store won't take it back, and its one of the few games that doesn't come with a Steam code. I picked it up on Steam for $4 on sale, many years ago- still mine. If my entire house burst into flames right now, i could walk to my neighbors house and download the game, for free, legally, and play it within minutes, while sobbing about my burned down house. That $60 disk? He owned the game for minutes. Unless Valve goes out of business tomorrow, i'll own that $4 copy of the exact same game on 5 PCs for the next 100 years.And even if they did, so many digital downloads are DRM free, ill just put it on my Amazon and iCloud, and re-download it whenever. As for pulling the servers- that doesn't change anything from digital to physical. If the titanfall servers are down, i still can't play it if its a disk or not. Owning the disk doesn't magically make the servers reappear, and replug themselves in. Only in SimCity whatever, where the single player requires internet, is that almost true - but it would still be the same for disk or digital. I guess you could say if Steam went out of business, then you might not be able to re-download any of your old games. Well, your keys would still work on the original publisher's page, and even if they didnt, Steam has 50 competitors you can take your keys to, or rebuy the game for ten cents. Theoretically a publisher could POSSIBLY erase your copy of it, but in over a dozen years of digital gaming, that doesn't happen- Rare has pulled DKCountry a few times from the current store, but never once removed it from systems. If you already purchased the game, you can still re-download it, years later.
I read your threads, (Thanos) and you're well spoken and very articulate, and clearly given this a lot of thought, but honestly, everything you said goes against my experience being a nearly digital-only gamer for years. People constantly say "oh no, my dog ate my DS cartridge, guess i need to buy it again for $40" or "oh no, i dropped my $130 copy of metroid prime trilogy on the floor and stepped on it.... now i need to buy it again. " They need to buy these products again, because they don't own them. They never owned them. They own a tiny, fragile, archaic piece of plastic from a long-gone era. While my friend is openly weeping over their $128 copy of Prime Trilogy (check the prize on amazon right now!) I'm secure with my $5, all digital copy of the same series on my wii u, that i bought directly from Nintendo. If my wii u's flash drive exploded this very second? Well, the smell will annoy me, but its okay. I own the digital, cloud-saved backups to every save file and download of the games. It would take 20 minutes to redownload all 7 or so GB and put them on another flash drive and plug it into my all digital wii u. My digital $5 copy of Prime Trilogy, my 25 cent digital copy of Mirror's Edge, and my $4 copy of Skyrim, digital, all grant me exponentially more control, savings, and ownership over titles that, all together, i spent less than 30 minutes worth of paycheck on. hopefully, in a month or two of saving, my non-digital friend will be able to finally afford another fragile, glass-like disk that will shatter into 100 pieces if it so much as gets poked funny. That one metroid prime disk cost more than all 65 of my Origin games put together...
I just double checked my math. That single copy of Metroid Prime trilogy, new, OR of Xenoblade Wii USED at gamestop, either of those fragile, easily snappable, leave it facedown on your coffee table for 10 seconds while answering the phone scratchable plastic games, costs more than my digital, unbreakable, undeletable copies of
all 25 command and conquer titles
the entire metroid series
the entire dragon age series
every mass effect
skyrim
oblivion
and Earthbound
combined.
Digital forever.
I will always prefer physical to digital. As others have said, it gives us ownership of the actual game, not a license to play it that can be revoked at any time in the future. Also, has anybody else besides me hit the "wonderful" 300 app cap on their 3DS? Really sucks.
Music CD's are still being sold at the store. If that is any indication, video games becoming purely digital is a long ways off.
@TheRealThanos
Except I did cover that pro, with the ability to sell/lend/trade, thus covering ownership, and being able to play it 50 years down the line.
Also, I said faction, though it would be more correct as 4 factions: collectors, those without internet, those who prefer to resell/trade in old games, and those who plan on playing "today's" games 50 years from now.
For those who want to play the newest and current games, and don't even have time for that, digital is somewhat superior.
Furthermore, not all digital games require online connections for single player. Digital distribution has the potential, but it is early and not as competitive yet to really provide the optimal form.
I did read your previous comment, also, another pro of digital, easier to provide backwards compatibility. Whereas when physical media changes form, it becomes difficult to make compatible with new hardware. If next gen consoles ditch disks for cards, you have to hold on to the ever more complex and sensitive consoles to play older games. Consoles these days have higher failure rates.
I think dedicated games stores should have a service where you can buy any 'download' game on a USB stick, that can then be reused or returned for a small refund (say £5).
That would get around any issues with slow/data limited broadband, plus there would never be any issues with stock levels.
Obviously a lot of development would need to go into DRM etc...
@donniedarkenson for the foreseeable future, digital-only solutions will NEVER be able to guarantee me the same amount of ownership that a physical copy of a game can offer me. Yes, they can vie for our attention and favor, but ultimately, we're still at their whim, and as I've already mentioned in previous comments, we really shouldn't be so happy to blindly agree with all that. Also, clutter and such are non-reasons to go digital.
Taking care of your games will take care of scratches and what not, and clutter? Stack em on shelves, in closets, whatever. It can all be done neatly and orderly and even alphabetically, for the nerds among us...
@russellohh I agree with you as far as VC games, arcade games and some handheld games go, but I strongly believe that a future of download-only is detrimental to the customer. And the example of Earthbound actually supports my point, because that is a game that isn't really dependent on being online, if at all. These kinds of downloads I can agree to, as I already mentioned, but any kind of bigger game or franchise that will be download only and that will be under almost complete control of the provider is NOT a good thing. It is VERY short-sighted to think that it is.
I respect that you have other experiences, but like I said in a previous comment: we need to think about the community as a whole, not just about ourselves and there are still so many people that will not have decent internet for the next 10 or even 20 years to come, so it simply isn't a great situation to look forward to at all. And like me an @rjejr have also agreed upon: who wants to have to download all these massive games in the new generation that is about to arrive? Maybe there will be games that will easily be more than 50GB and how long will that take, and that is only one game.
@khaosklub Ah, faction, fraction, my bad. Sorry for that one. But the ownership issue still stands. You mentioned part of that by stating "the ability to sell/lend/trade and being able to play it 50 years down the line." but like I said: it is a very big issue, if not THE biggest one.
I do agree with your list of pros, which I should have mentioned, but I thought that was somewhat clear by me stating only the parts that you had missed. Anyway, all of the additions you mention now are still very much at the whim of the company, and they can't and probably won't guarantee you that you can still play game X online after the sequel has arrived or after the console isn't officially supported anymore. That may be okay for people that don't really care that much or that will trade in their old console for the new one anyway, but in my circle of family and friends we all still own our previous consoles and enjoy them to this day. Something that I see disappearing altogether when digital-only has gotten a firm grip on the industry and the consumer. Here's hoping that won't happen too soon...
Cheers.
"Increases in downloads don't equal death for discs."
I'm sorry, but yes it does. And it's about time. Physical media has held the progression of consoles back for long enough. We'll see the first digital only platform as soon as with the NX.
There are some good points on both sides.
I've got decent collections of each there are pros/cons for each. But instead of regurgitate, I'll just post my 2 cents. A digital only future won't work for consoles unless they revisit their pricing models. I have tons of steam games but very few wii u downloads. Because with steam i get full game downloads, often with all dlc for $5 or less. With wii u nintendo charges $60 w/o dlc. Yes there are occasional sales but they are usually pretty lacking compared to physical sales. So i think the nx will be more niche than wii u if they think they can go $60 download only with no backward compatibility with wii u games.
It's possible they create a gimmick like motion control for the wii to get people to pay the premium, but the pricing will be a hindrance to mass acceptance. Also, where is my download rewards program you were rolling out with? Yeah, I pretty much figured that was a load of crap and you wanted me to pay more for downloads.
@TheRealThanos
Fact of the matter is, ownership is a big deal... to those who care about that issue. Not everyone cares so much about long term ownership. And 1st parties would have to be crazy to do something that will cause massive backlash.
And for most of digital's pros, most are potential. Digital distribution makes things possible. Steam currently does the best job, and I'm personally hoping that steam machines will bring about change in how consoles do digital.
Everyone does certain things right. As far as I know, digital nintendo console games require no internet to run, only to download. With sony, I can buy one digital game, and if I own 2 playstation 3's, I can play with another person on two tv's with one copy of the game, because they give you two liscenses, and used to give 3. Not familiar with xbox consoles though, nor ps4.
I'm pretty sure so long as I maintain my sd card gor my 3ds, I can still play the games downloaded for decades, though may not be able to redownload in case of corruption or loss.
Again, digital distribution has great potential. I would prefer digital distribution dominated market, with the option to order physical versions that will be produced a month later after orders close, like how I suggested special edition swag could work. As many as are demanded would be produced, though one would have to wait. It satisfies ownership enthusiasts and collectors alike.
I'm also sure that removing physical media readers such as disk readers would make consoles cheaper to produce, though sd card readers would be necessary anyway. Though could make protected sd cards that will sync to a console and download the game to the console.
As long as Nintendo Virtual Console/eShop purchases are tied to an individual console/portable instead of a user account AND can be transferred to other/newer platforms that user purchases, they absolutely need to continue offering physical media.
Issues of archival aside, I really don't want physical. Call me new-fashioned but I like to look at a selection of activities in the medium of the game (digital on-screen) not a book shelf or drawer full of packages I have to physically manage. I do value the physical artifacts sometimes (maps etc) and I like my amiibo, but I hate switching discs especially now that so many games have reasons to visit for a short time before switching.
That said, all the problems of digital downloads aren't solved for the consumer yet. Give it time but also keep demanding it to be consumer friendly because if you don't it won't.
@russellohh Exactly, It's all convenience. I like that you can activate/deactivate computers that allow access to your games collection on Steam. Nintendo is strict, but since the move to the Wii U they've stepped up their accessibility when transferring or recovering games.
@TheRealThanos I do appreciate physical media. I do. I have a Vectrex and have a cool collection of games and screen overlays that I love. I love arcade machines and pinball. I do, on some level, like my old NES.
But I lost most of my stuff along the way, whether I moved or lended something and never got it back, I lost it all. I do realize it's partially on me, and definitely not on you. Physical is just such a pain in the ass and the rewards of having it on a little hard drive and permanently in the cloud is comforting.
I will say this, there is one scenario where the digital thing could collapse on someone and that's if the company goes under, what would happen to our downloads? Realistically a company is probably gonna get bought out before it crashes. But then again, IDK, lots of online web services go down and your digital goods are gone forever.
I would think that Nintendo, heaven forbid, it goes under, would have something to rescue its cloud service or your ownership of games, as it has a legacy to uphold, but who knows.
All I know is for-the-now it's great, and if they ironed out a few of the barriers that prevent digital from taking over, it would be ideal. Not next gen, but the gen after that, review the landscape again and see if it's viable.
I don't believe we should fully make the leap until the games can be available for everyone, so some kind of physical media (like SD or USB key) would be necessary for those in the mountains, but inevitably...
I've said this before but I think the comparisons to movies and music are broken. For three main reasons....
1. With music and especially with movies the disks are higher quality. There's literally nothing else that looks as good as a Blu-Ray. With games it's largely the same product and if anything the digital copy runs better.
2. With movies and music there wasn't ever really that much of a used market. Sure it existed but not to the extent that it does for games. Purely because games become "old news" much faster than music or movies do.
3. If you buy a physical copy of a game you're stuck with a physical copy. With movies and in particular with music that's not the case. I still buy CDs but I'm not restricted by that format because I RIP all my music. With games I'm locked into using the disk. .... with the exception of PC gaming where "the disk" is just a different way to acquire the game data.
@Lizuka The XBO is not a legitimate example of why it would be "absolutely idiotic" for Nintendo to go digital only. It's problems were not at all a digital only problem.
First, it was not digital only at all. You still had people buying discs. People were pissed because the value of the discs were less on the XBO than they would be on anything else. That's an issue of implementation. Then there was the issue of needing to be connected online to play your games, which has nothing to do with being digital only. Then there was the issue of it being marketed as a multimedia device instead of a gaming device. The NX will have absolutely none of these issues.
According to Steam, 125m+ people have more than good enough internet, and Steam's audience is much more hardcore and frankly niche than mainstream consoles. There's more than enough people with with good enough internet to outweigh the few who don't. We live in a digital world now. People are going to deal with it.
People aren't going to protest a digital only NX. No crazed Zelda fan is going to skip the next Zelda game purely on the principle that they don't have a disc. No mom is going to skip the next Mario Kart purely on the principal that they want physical media. 99.99% of consumers won't care, and the remaining 0.01% will either just deal with it, or be left in the dust.
The NX is going to do to consoles what the iPod and iPhone did to the music and phone industries. And that's exactly what the new membership program that will likely be revealed on Wednesday will address. That program is how Nintendo will hoist everyone into its digital only future. And the whole industry will follow suit. The NX will basically be Steam and iOS combined, tied to Nintendo hardware. The only "physical thing" you're gonna see is Amiibo.
@Lizuka
I think it would be worse for Nintendo. 1. Widely agreed Nintendo sucks at marketing. At least having a game on a shelf provides some marketing so kids/parents know a game exists. Quite literrally a large percentage of the market may not know anything about the nx if the message is reliant on Nintendo's ads. 2. Gamestop doesn't sell systems bundled with downloads. Odds are the nx will have a download bundled. I'd say there is a strong chance gamestop wouldn't sell the nx and the wouldn't be the only retailer.
Games are big money for retailers and battle lines are starting to be drawn for that marketshare.
@spemanig
Zelda and Mario fans weren't enough to prop up the Wii u. Simply having those games on the nx won't assure success.
I also think the nx to ipad comparison is crazy. Nintendo is way behind on the digital game front compared to everybody. They also have an issue where third parties skip their console by default. Becoming the itunes of gaming is a pipedream. Yes, we all want Nintendo to do better and have more games but I just don't see them becoming the defacto gaming company overnight. In fact gaming market is likely to get more segmented as other hardware (apple, amazon) push forward in the market and get better gaming experiences.
If a future Nintendo system goes digital only and still sells games for $40-60 (like Wii U and 3DS right now), I'll turn 180° and choose another system/brand to invest my time and money. Simple as that.
I fully support physical for countless reasons. Resale and trade value, safety for my saves (powersaves!), safety if my system breaks, gets stolen or gets the NNID banned, I'll surely keep the games for one or two decades after the system retires (online shop and services may go down at anytime when the system is discontinued), I can share my games with friends and family, I have a much bigger storage space in my shelf than what I have in a 32gb card, some games may become rare to find someday phisically, but still much easier to collect than digital, because once the title gets delisted on the shop, it's gone forever, there's no turning back like what happened to DKC 1-3 on Wii and Scott Pilgrim on X360 (Wii U have them by now but on Wii is gone for good). Well, not counting piracy, obviously.
There's no advantage on digital over physical except for convenience of never swapping discs. Prices are the same in most cases.
Three problems need to be addressed by Nintendo before they can go download-digital for their 1st party, AAA games.
1.) Bigger hard drives on consoles. 32 GB's is a joke if a single game is close to 8GB's or higher. They can't expect the extra cost always be on the consumer. They already cut out power cords for the N3DS to save money
2.) Digital games need to be cheaper. Currently, an e-shop retail release is the same price as a hardcopy version of the game. If Nintendo saves on packaging, shipping and storefront space, they need to pass a long some savings to us.
3.) What about about second-hand value for games? Gamestop and EB Games offer a lot of potential value for games when you trade them in. Digital gives you nothing. What happens to the used game market?
@Bobbery PC is miles ahead of what Nintendo has to offer right now, I'd say nearly a decade ahead, specially when it comes to safety and prices.
For Xbox One/PS4 owners discs themself are only useful for reselling because AAA games need day1 patch and big part of those games are usually in online anyway and has lots of DLC. Smaller games are digital only anyways so those disc drives will be only used for few games and to play bluray movies.
I know that it'll happen someday. I know it's better for the ecosystem. But I just can't buy a digital copy of a game. It's not just the same feeling of reward and anticipation. With a physical copy, I am waiting in front of the local GameStop, run into the store, get my copy and rush home to finally play the game I have been waiting for for so long. And I can put its box into my cabinet that is nowadays brimming with all kinds of physical goodness, may it be Amiibos, movies, games, old N64 cartridges, Amiibo Cards .... And I can stand in front of it and can proudly proclaim - these are my over 500 games that I've been collecting ever since I can think. When looking at my Steam library, though, I can see the names of my games - Undertale, FNAF4, Plague inc., ... - but these are just names that I can click on to start the game. It's not the same feel like holding a physical copy of something in your own hands. I know this might sound old-fashioned but I honestly can't think of doing it any other way.
Ive already gone all digital with everything but Wii U. Especially now that you can pre-load games for day 1 on Ps4. My 3ds had a 32 gb card which is more than sufficient. The physical end is nigh!
@cleveland124
To be fair, the wiiU really doesn't have it's own zelda game, just an hd port of a gamecube game
It's definately not too soon, IMO. I was buying digital on all of the consoles in last generation. My digital Wii games got transferred from my Wii to Wii U, and my Xbox 360 games will be on my Xbox One next month. That's why PS4 wasn't even a consideration for me based on BC, because I still figured Xbox One would get BC over PS4, and I was right. I also don't care enough about the hardware over Xbox One.
I still have Kirby and the Rainbow Curse on disc, because I only had to pitch in $10 to get it on sale at the Mario Maker E3 event, and I have Nintendo Land(which I got in the deluxe bundle), the CoD games, and ME3 on disc, because that's the only place they were, but that's it. The digital games run better on the HDD, and my Xbox Live account system actually matters more if it keeps track of my purchases from years ago, because I will always have those games from the console account or a system transfer like Nintendo did. It also matters if the digital games are on sale, because eventually you aren't gonna get your money back if you buy physical and want to trade them in, so I would say it ultimately doesn't matter all that much, either way.
Digital has for sure worked out for me, especially since things like the Wii system transfer happened, deluxe digital promo ,and BC on Xbox One will work out. It was also easier to register games on Club Nintendo and why they said a new Club Nintendo is gonna happe with DeNA.
I actually bought Animal Crossing: New Leaf as a physical release because I was new to the series and wasn't sure if I'd like it. I thought could always just re-sell it if I didn't like it. Having spent hundreds on hours on the game I feel like I should have gone for the digital release only because swapping game cards isn't always too much fun.
The same thing happened with Happy Home Designer, although I don't have hundreds of hours under my belt in that game and I do not plan to have either.
@invictus4000
You can solve your Wii U's storage problem with an external hard drive. Done.
Yes, and if HDD space is a problem, you might as well not even buy any video games or anything anymore, because things have progressively gone digital. That's why Kindle store and Google books basically destroys paper. Save trees, and you don't have to carry even one single book around to read it.
@GoldenGamer88 Pretty much how I feel, perfectly summed up.
Totally get the appeal of having digital games & all but just not for me either. Just something special about holding a physical copy, flicking through an actual manual not to mention the excitement of going down to a store & picking up a game (more so when I was younger of course) & sharing the games with family & friends too.
For me, I hope digital & physical can co exist for the long run. There's some utterly fantastic digital only games like Child Of Light, Ori & The Blind Forest, Valiant Hearts for example but there's always a chance of indie/digital only titles getting a physical release later down the line, just like Shovel Knight (which I'll definitely be picking up later this week) so I don't mind waiting there, even if it's a long wait.
With this current gen having a big focus on digital content & everything, it's kinda why I've finally got round to picking up a GameCube the other week (soo late I know aha) & several games for it. Love the WiiU & XB1 but you can't quite beat the classics from back then, just straight up fun & enjoyable gaming (plus its nice to have physical copies of certain hard to find games, with actual manuals & no need to worry about dlc, day one patches, installs, game sizes etc too). Just put in the disc & off you go.
I dont understand how a company can be so greedy, after they made so many millions with selling games.
60 euro for a download? While nintendo take 100% profit is insane.
If the NX is download only, it will be my first nintendo console i wont buy.
And i will hope that within 1.5 year Playstation pop up a console 4 times as powerfull as the nx.
I have a much faster internet connection than anyone in here, and all I can say is that I still rather have physical copies, here are the main reasons why:
1. Graphics take too much space in the hard disk.
2. Console hard disks are usually crap (not SSD), the more it is filled with data, the slower the whole console becomes.
3. Good thing to have anyway, if you like to collect games to use it later again in time, which is when many companies go bust and those games not being available in the cloud anymore anyway.
Reason 1 and 2 however are main reasons why wanting physical copies, even if you have connection that downloas 1 gig in approximately 1 minute.
I personally buy [physical] 3DS/PSV games 95% of the time, and buy [physical] PS4/WiiU games 75% of the time. The thing with the consoles is that discs corrupt over time, and there's actually a lot of space available (for the PS4, which is more 50/50). On the other hand, I love the mini cartridges used for the 3DS and PSV, so I get physical copies for most of those games (75+).
I don't see enough savings for me to get excited about this. At least with a physical cop I can part exchange etc.
There is an argument for both sides. The biggest advantage of a physical copy is the trade in value. You start playing the game and for what ever reason you don't like, you can cut your losses and trade it. And if you do like the game you can let a friend play it.
On the download side..... my local Asda does not sell anything Nintendo as do other outlets. So if Nintendo went download only road and they sold the games less the middleman's cut, that would make sense to the consumer.
If on the other hand if they sold the downloads at full (rip off) price, I would buy a lot less Nintendo games.
New download only games can seem second rate, not quite good enough to make retail. And unfortunately reviews are so diverse its easy to buy an inferior game and waste money.
I won't be getting Fatal Frame at that price. So unless it gets a huge discount sometime in the future I probably wouldn't even pay over 19.99 for it. I did play the beginning of the game and really was thinking it was going to be this awesome game. Now it's neat and has some spots that might make you jump but you can seriously see the Wii-u chugging in some spots especially when cutscenes are running
Here's a couple of things I just don't like about the current download models:
1. There's very little ownership. It feels more like you're just renting a game, which the company could take away from you at any time.
2. You can't take a digital game to a store and maybe get a little cash back years down the line, so there's little value at all in it after that initial purchase. It's all money for the developer/publisher but there's no chance of you scraping a little bit of that cash back.
3. It's really easy for developers/publishers to modify the digital versions of games at any time, potentially removing large parts of the content like online multi-player modes.
4. It's still not any cheaper than physical, which is a total and utter rip-off considering the value proposition of physical vs. digital. Developers/publishers save a bunch of costs but none of that goes back to the consumers. It's all great for the developers/publishers but not really for the consumers.
5. You don't get the satisfaction of having a physical box on your shelf, with cool looking artwork and stuff. It's just nice to see that kind of stuff, and the recent Super Famicom: The Box Art Collection shows just how awesome it is, and how much we are losing going forward: https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2015/10/super_famicom_the_box_art_collection_is_back_and_better_than_ever
6. You still can't really share you games with your friends in the same way you can with physical, or give your old games to your siblings once you're done with them.
7. It encourages developers/publishers to put out sloppily made and unfinished products because they knows they can just patch/update them after the fact, which isn't really great when you think about what that means for the average consumer.
8. It encourages all the stuff that comes with digital, like DLC and micro-transactions.
For what the consumer is actually getting, I don't think the typical digital purchase is worth it at all, and the only model that I currently think is ok for this is a subscription service where you maybe pay a few squid a month but get basically unlimited access to hundreds/thousands of games for as long as you are a subscriber, a kind of Netflix equivalent for videogames, because at least then you really understand what you are getting for your money and overall it's decent value for money.
Digital is however better for the environment, and saves physical space, which is a good thing, but I'm not yet happy that those couple of benefits are enough from a consumer point of view to make it seem like we aren't just getting the p*ss taken out of us by greedy developers/publishers.
Until the real value is there from the consumer point of view I wouldn't actually encourage anyone to support digital to be honest.
I cannot wait for consoles to have no moving parts again but it doesn't mean download only. Games can come on memory cards or as someone mentioned even Amiibos! Now collecting games as ammibos would be very very cool.
Anybody who wants to see a digital only future with Nintendo (or Sony/MS) the sole gatekeeper in charge of pricing and availability is a perfect example of a Turkey voting for Christmas
@TheRealThanos you're wrong
@DESS-M-8 He's not.
@TheRealThanos
Some great posts. It amazes me how easily persuaded some people are. The industry keeps telling them 'digital is the future, digital is the future' (which they will, because it suits them) and some people just blindly follow.
I wish I could meet these people, I could make a lot of money from the sale of magic beans....
IF some smart developer/company could come up with a model whereby you purchase a digital game for a lot cheaper than current physical games, and once you own it you own it completely, and are also able to actually transfer it to other people once you are bored with it (with only one person being able to own/play that particular digital copy at a time), or even trade it back in for a little bit of money too (to a digital download service or wherever) , THEN digital might actually be a true alternative to physical, imo. Digital needs to offer the consumer all the ownership rights and benefits that current physical does, and not just serve the developers/publishers but not really the consumers, before I will accept it as being a truly worthy alternative. Until then, I say no.
But make no mistake about it, and let's not allow ourselves to be naive here: Many developers and pretty much all the publishers out there are trying to move to the digital realm as quickly as humanly possible, because they do not care about you as a consumer. All they care about at the end of the day, particularly the publishers, is making as much profit as possible, even if it comes at the cost of all your rights and privileges as a consumer. If publishers could have their way we'd already be all digital, without any doubt whatsoever in my mind.
And just to tie this into a bigger point here: This is why basically every single industry/business/service/sector in the world is trying to go as digital as possible too, because it's in their best interests to do so (it gives them all the ownership and control over everything), but it's usually not really in your best interest for anything other than basic convenience. But oh how much you simply do not realise you are giving up, how much freedom and privacy you are giving away (and it's just getting worse every single day), for that convenience.
I've seen games freeze, because they were on disc. especially with Xbox 360(unless you install, or because they were scratchec). Even Nintendo Land froze on me during the launch period, because the disc couldn't keep track of the Miis in the plaza, whenever it connected to Spotpass.
That's especially why buying games as disc for Xbox One and PS4 is kind of pointless, because everyone has been complaining about HDD space, as it is, when they'll have to upgrade the HDD anyway, which was the complaint for Wii U. That's why Microsoft almost went with "strict" DMR, and it made about as much sense as trading in your physical games in the first place.
That's why it's better to say that it doesn't matter either way, because there (has been) are a lot of reasons to go digital, and it's not relevant if you decide to go with the disc, either.
Sure, digital games will save the laser in my game console, but will kill the HDD faster. Be sure to back up your HDD folks.
As things stand now, download-versions of games are as expensive (Or when stores do discounts, more expensive) than retail versions for objectively less (No possibility of resale, lending out, returning to the store, no manual or anything physical), those things are why the industry is so hot for pushing download-only, it puts all the power in their hands and production costs are nearly zero, and seeing how the industry is going in general, that scares me.
@Operative You're telling me. In my place, I only have a bandwidth and a digital download from Steam uses it all up!
I think that unless the internet gets any better than it is now, that's when we'll see a digital future.
I don't really see how download-only is viable, nor do I believe it to be inevitable. Someone has to solve the problem of two-dimensional eShops being harder to navigate - and largely making spontaneous game discoveries all but extinct - when compared with a three-dimensional retail space.
I've been all-digital ready since the psp go. Simpy waiting for the rest of the world to catch up.
The day the games industry goes digital only is the day I stop buying new games, can't beat a good physical copy in my opinion
I don't like to buy "retail" games digitally on the Wii U or 3DS because they cost far more than buying a physical copy. It's an absolute rip-off! Nintendo have said that they will not reduce the price of their first party digital games because they think it devalues them, which is ludicrous. Aside from pricing, I also don't like to buy them for these consoles because Nintendo still lack a proper account system. I did get Ace Attorney 5 and Shin Megami Tensei IV digitally in sales because there was no other option.
I will always prefer physical over digital for a variety of reasons and feel it has a valuable place in the industry, but I am not entirely opposed to digital. I have bought "retail" games digitally for the 360, PS3 and Vita when they've been cheap in sales. I buy games on my phone and tablet. All have a proper account system!
@electrolite77
Raise the price by ten rupees after each sale
@khaosklub
Yes, Windwaker is a remake. But when I bought the system, I bought it with the understanding there would be a Zelda coming. Every home Nintendo console has had at least 1 Zelda. To me it's like buying an Xbox1 for Halo before Halo is announced. You know it's coming until the first time it doesn't.
Also, my response was to a poster claiming these fans would buy a Nintendo just for Zelda. I bet those fans largely already bought a Wii U for Windwaker. I know the Zelda fan in me was eager to pick it up despite owning the Gamecube version.
@khaosklub "Not familiar with xbox consoles though, nor ps4."
On Xbox it is pretty much the same: games are tied to your account, not your system, so if the console dies, buy another one, log in and re-download your games by going to your download history.
That indeed is very convenient and as I said previously that is also why (besides personal preference) I do agree with your pros list to an extent, but the question concerning ownership and what happens with a game if support (for whatever reason mentioned earlier) is discontinued remains. Maybe not everyone cares, but I dare to wager a bet that a lot of us still do, and not only people visiting Nintendo-related sites...
As for leaving out drives making console manufacturing cheaper: hardly the case. You can buy an internal Blu-ray reader/writer for 20 bucks nowadays, and that is as a consumer. Console manufacturers buying large quantities to put in their consoles will probably pay 10 bucks or less. That's hardly something that you could use to lower the final cost of the device.
@SanderEvers I think you need to change your point nr. 1 because the issue here is download-only, not digital-only. There goes the monopoly analogy...
@Kirk thanks for the support and adding some insightful points of your own.
@electrolite77 Thanks, and I love your Christmas turkey analogy; have to remember that one...
To me this argument is dumb. There are negatives to the download only argument (especially the way Nintendo currently does it). If those negatives don't concern you and you are happy with downloads great. But let's not pretend we've seen an evolution that people can't see because there are drawbacks to physical.
To me it's simple. When Nintendo has shown enough value in downloads that more than 50% of people would download Mario Maker or the coming Zelda instead of buying a physical copy then it's time to move to download only.
If Nintendo moves before the market is ready for that I can't help feel but we'll just list this in the line of Nintendo blunders. I.E. should have went disc based N64, online Gamecube, HD Wii, etc. There will always be a portion of the market they'll lose going to download only. You can't force the market to go download only because there are too many alternatives. If the market keeps moving this direction, maybe the console after the NX could be download only.
@TheRealThanos
But does xbox allow you to buy one copy of a game and play on two consoles at a time? It must have some pro the other consoles don't.
What do you exactly mean by ownership? I mean, my ps3 is full of digital downloads, as well as my psp, and I'm sure I can play them until my consoles or memory devices fail.
As for things no longer supported, the dlc for marvel ultimate alliance 2 was pulled long ago, but I can still redownload it onto new consoles though it is no longer offered in the store.
I don't think sony can take away my games on those consoles, and seeing how I don't even need to sign in to play any of them (Though there are games that do, like bionic commando re-armed 2), they are mine to keep.
Cost of the reader, cost of installation, cost of material to make the housing bigger to accommodate it, cost of programming to interface with reader (possibly?), added weight adding to shipping cost. Hey, if I could get my console for $20 cheaper because I prefer digital, heck yeah! It would also probably use less electricity I suppose.
Digital is more efficient, physical is more private and great for hoarders.
@Vineleaf I think most people believe even with a digital download world retailers would still sell codes in store like they do with Mine craft and all those Facebook cards, PSN, eShop and Xbox. So you could still peruse the video game aisle at the store of your preference, but code cards are cheaper to produce than discs. And Amazon, where many people shop, already sells codes, so you can peruse there. I don't think download only means the end of retail. Plus, if you've been in any video game section of any retailor you would have noticed some thing - the toys to life section is already bigger than the games section. People think toys to life is a fad, but I think it's only beginning, soon every game will have toys. Maybe not with NFC chips built in, but DLC codes in the package. Retail will survive, it's the best marketing tool.
@cleveland124
There's certainly a difference between assuming and knowing. It's likely that every console will have a zelda game, true, but that was also the case with kirby until gamecube, and f-zero until the wii, metroid until the n64, etc.
You get a lot more people buying the console along with the game upon release.
That and windwaker was one of those zelda games that divided the fanbase, not to big a draw for the wiiU. An hd port of ocarina of time for wiiU would have really moved units! Or even mario 64
@Vineleaf
Shops would evolve, and they can always make second life style eshops, imagine that combined with vr tech?
Simple example for wiiU, design a digital physical store that you navigate with the gamepad, use gyroscope to look around, analog stick to move, and touch screen to look at games.
@TheRealThanos I will fight the future for my kids, they will be well educated, it's the gaming masses who I've given up on.
Echo is a black cylinder sold by Amazon. It's Siri for your home for $149. It's like the computers from Star Trek but with a sexy voice. It's limited now mostly to news and music, but I see it becoming dangerous. Hard to explain.
@cleveland124
What the arguement boils down to is collectors and trade-iners feeling their way of life being threatened by things going all digital, and attempting to sway the masses in their favor. Not that they're wrong for doing so, they want to fight for what they care about.
Some like therealthanos seem to not trust the licenses and believe content may be ripped away from them in the future, and are arguing to prevent the ignorant masses from forcing them into an undesirable position.
The digital enthusiasts wish to accellerate towards a digital only future so that it can grow and evolve through competition into something grand.
Everyone is attempting to sway public oppinion, because there are likely more readers than commenters, and while for example, I'll never sway thanos' s view, undecided readers may see sense in my arguments and decide to try digital for retail. Same goes for the otherside as well.
@cleveland124 The Wii U had problems the NX won't have. The Wii U wasn't a good system. If the NX is as poorly designed as the Wii U was, discs won't save it. But it won't be. Nintendo has made several assertive moves that has made me absolutely sure of that.
It's not crazy at all. Nintendo has never even tried to focus on digital like they will with the NX. Of course they'd be behind. They never cared. Now they do. Buying DeNA is proof of that. The entire premise behind the membership offering flexible pricing for game and being core to the NX is proof of that. Making the NX a redefined platform not tied to hardware is proof of that. Comparing the NX platform to iOS and Android, the two most prolific digital platforms of the modern era is proof of that. The NX won't at all be behind when it comes to digital, and the first inkling of that will come at the membership's reveal.
Third parties skipped their consoles because Nintendo's been making crappy consoles for third parties. The NX won't be a crappy console, so third parties will come. Especially on a digital platform where the costs and risks of porting are reduced. Becoming the smart device of gaming isn't at all a pipe dream, and Nintendo has been taking the calculated steps necessary since January of 2014 to make it a reality.
They became the defacto gaming company overnight with the Wii after the Gamecube failure. They can do it again with the NX. Only difference is that they'll do it with the mainstream gaming audience instead of the casual Wii audience, and that unlike with the Wii, the NX was planned from the beginning to be a long term success, with all the planning and precautions necessary to make it one.
@khaosklub
I'm the only user of the console so I wouldn't know, but I do believe that Xbox One has a sort of family system where it is possible to share one game between several users. Come to think of it, something similar was already there on the Xbox360, and you could even play installed games with a guest account.
True, and that will be so for games that don't need to be online to function such as VC games or games with a reasonable amount of single player content, but ownership with physical is total, digital is not. Why? If a company decides to block a game, pull server support and god forbid, even sends some update to your console making sure the game is rendered unplayable, then all there is left to do for the digital owners is to erase that game from their hard drive because it has become totally useless. When you have a physical copy, you could for example disconnect from the internet with your old console (provided you would be aware of any game breaking update so you could prevent that) and keep playing the single player portion of that game for as long as you like or your console holds out.
Download only effectively turns you into a semi-permanent renter of games because, as I've already mentioned a couple of times before, you're completely at the whim of the publisher, so there actually is no ownership of games anymore; so in that aspect a digital list of games in a cloud does not equal that same collection of games physically sitting on a shelf in your home...
Same goes for your Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 example: it will only be there for as long as the publisher wants or needs it.
We're in agreement on the games that don't need online to function, but that was already mentioned before. If you need to re-download some of them for whatever reason somewhere in the future however.... again at the whim of the publisher...
The total amount that it would save the customer would not be 20 bucks. At the most it would be half that. Consoles are either sold at a loss, or in Nintendo's case, at equal cost or a slight profit. Production costs for fitting a $10 drive amount to an additional couple of dollars, again nothing to write home about. Changes in casing and so on are made beforehand and add no additional cost. So, as a customer you will see next to nothing of this virtual discount.
Alas, but no. Digital may be more efficient in use, but it is only "better" for the short term because with no actual games in your possession, the future of your online collection can't and won't be guaranteed.
Discs can break or scratch, true, but that has hardly ever happened to me, and if it did, I just bought another copy, second-hand if need be. Trade-in and discount games are available for years and years after a game has been published, even some of the rarer ones, although prices are admittedly sometimes ridiculous, but still...
I respect your views and points, but I think we may have to agree to disagree on some parts. A lot of people just seem to focus on the convenience and want to ignore or forget the downside of it, but I am not one of those people, obviously. I hope you also get my point. Cheers.
@Kirk
While true, digital can put the ball in their court, we still vote with our wallets. Just look at the xbone since first being announced. Doing something outrageous with that control is essentially financial suicide.
Besides, steam machines come out next month, steam does digital rather well, and should provide enough competition to incentivise other eshops to improve. In a digital only future, digital distribution stlye would become a major deciding factor in deciding whose console to upgrade to.
Shoot, backwards compatibility is already a major factor to many as is.
It is a matter of economics that physical will be reduced to special editions. Publishers will want to cut every corner they can, and the cost of the disc, box, and inserts is an unnecessary one. Already the movie and movie industries have begun to make people think this way. People in their 20's don't buy music, they subscribe to a music service (or pirate), and they don't buy Blu-Ray but digital copies (or pirate). It will happen with games also.
I tend to purchase both. I purchase physical copies when I do not know if I will want to keep the game, as physical is the only one I can resell in the US. I purchase digital when I don't plan on getting rid of the game, the price is cheaper, or it is the only way to get the product. What does need to be addressed however is this idea that digital copies are licenses. Digital copies need all the ownership protections of physical. I believe the EU has already moved in that direction.
All media eventually dies. I have Betamax tapes at my parents now that are useless as are VHS tapes worn out, and my dad has a reel-to-reel and 8-track collection that likewise is dying. My C-64 games collection is nothing more than a bin of useless junk due to bit-rot. The Intellivision and Odyssey II collections likewise rendered useless by technology advancing and hardware breaking. My Playstation collection was made useless by a broken system that scratched discs. I've lost games by misplacing activation codes in manuals, servers shut down or companies going out of business. I have lived long enough to see eventually it dies (and comes back as a $40 all in one box). Truth be told, most of it lost value long ago because the art progressed and what was acceptable back then is just bad design now. The rare gems (expect when there are licensing issues) are remade or endure in new forms.
@Nintendofan83
1) The NX will obviously have a much bigger HD. It'll likely launch with 1TB. It won't have a disc drive, so it has plenty of room to be inexpensive with that much space at the end of 2016.
2) The membership program is specifically meant to address this. Instead of games being cheaper, it is going to offer flexible pricing to consumers who buy more games. The more you buy, the more you save. Also, what you said about the eshop is inaccurate. There are plenty of reduced priced games and plenty of sales. I'm all digital and have only payed full price for about 25% of my games.
3) Used games will die. People will just deal with that like they have already with Steam. No being nice about that.
@Warruz I feel like whatever new physical media format we might get (if we get one at all) will be something like a flash drive, and where DLC and updates will actually be stored on that drive when they're downloaded. It would almost be like the modern solution to what the N64DD was going for.
sigh
The fact that physical media is still around is partially because the market demands it, but more so because retail stores like Walmart or Gamestop would be at the throats of Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo if there were no physical releases on their platforms.
Think about it: what's the one thing you have to buy physically? The console. So if Sony, for instance, were to come out and say, "We're not doing physical releases anymore," that would cut pretty hard into Walmart's game sale profits. So what's to stop Walmart from saying, "You'd better not pull your games from our stores, or we're going to stop selling your consoles."
Right now game retail stores and console manufacturers are at a standoff in that regard. And it doesn't have any indication of ending anytime soon. That said, if one console manufacturer were to be the first to say "screw you" to retail stores (just like they do to pretty much everyone else outside their sphere), it would be Nintendo.
@TheRealThanos
Weren't there also physical games that require connections to play and to play online? I thought an assasin's creed game was like that?
Also, not just single player digi-games, just those that aren't online multiplayer.
And an update rendering a game unplayable? Sounds like a lawsuit, regardless of whether or not their ownership allows it, and sounds like a hefty class action one at that! Lawyers would be jumping all over that like when sony got hacked!
Just because they can do it, doesn't actually mean they can do it.
And on consoles, online multiplayer games become unplayable when the servers go down anyway, right? Didn't that happen to phantasy star online?
Yeah, I knew you'd go for the consumer not being passed the savings from no disk drive, and yeah, that's probably true, but once they make enough profit, they can afford price cuts, so for those like me who are willing to wait, price cuts come sooner!
Yeah, you just summed up my summation. Digital is about efficiency. It's convenient! Physical is more private with personal resales snd second hand copies and no ties to an account (as far as I know). Physical also appeals to collectors/hoarders/scalpers
@FlaygletheBagel
well, it's not like nintendo really has games in the retail stores anyway... plus, less games leaves more space for the toys to life stuff.
@spemanig
hopefully the NX will have the space, or maybe it'll just be more external HDD friendly, don't overestimate nintendo.
also, the new rewards program would provide these rewards for physical games as well, no? I mean, I get 20% of retail games at bestbuy. I buy all digital, but it hurts to think I could be saving $12 on each game.
Nintendo is not good about sales either. there are occasional sales on 1st party games, but in both retail and digital, 1st party nintendo games rarely go down in price, and only used games offer any real savings aside from promotions like gamer's club unlocked from best buy.
trade-ins provide like next to nothing. people pay full price for a game on release and trade in like 10 games to get a new one for free! I mean, selling it yourself on ebay could be worthwhile, but takes time, money and energy anyway. selling used games usually doesn't yield much. I don't consider the trade-in value to be much of an issue.
Good Editorial, very well composed. I also liked your nods to CD Project Red.
@spemanig
1) Not sure you can obviously on that one. Nintendo has pushed the e-shop a lot this generation but still decided to give out small hard drives which places cost on the consumer. I'll believe it when I see it.
2) I said retail releases were the same price. Publishers have sales all the time and that's a great time to pick up indies and VC stuff. I do that, too. Retail games launch at full price and stay full price for a long time. I'm pretty Hyrule Warriors is still $59.99 on the Canadian e-shop. Retail prices are always higher.
3) I concede your point about Steam. I didn't know how that would work out but Steam is here to stay. It's sad that the used game market could disappear because it drastically alters game collecting which is a big driver of gaming passion and memories.
@khaosklub I'm not overestimating them at all. It's just obvious. A big HDD is simply a necessity with a digital only platform. Thinking they'd go again with 32GB on a digital only platform is as ludicrous as thinking they'd launch a physical platform with no disk drive.
Absolutely not. There is no way Nintendo is going to work out that complex on a discount system on a consumer to consumer basis, and then work that out even further between every individual retailer. With digital only, they only have to worry about their own marketplace, which they have complete control over, and discount can be done algorithmically, which is to say effortlessly.
The sales thing was more addressing third party games. I don't think the NX will be much better with sales, but that's not really an issue. Nintendo games are expensive at retail, and any price discrepancy from there will be nullified by the consumer-based discounts an individual gets from the membership. Even still, Nintendo has been reducing prices more than ever before, so I don't think there will be a void of progress in this area.
I consider trade ins an absolute non-issue. Steam thrives without trade ins, and it thrived for years without even having digital returns. The NX will, too.
@Nintendofan83
1) You absolutely can. Like I said, the NX and the Wii U are different by design. The NX's only form of media will be digital downloads. Not providing massive internal HDD space for hardware with no other media alternative would be like selling an Gamecube without a disk drive. We all get that Nintendo has done stupid things, but they've never done anything even remotely close to something that catastrophically stupid.
2) That's the same for most digital platforms, though. Most Steam games launch at the same price as physical games, for example. That's just not changing. Steam was fine in spite of this, and the NX will too. Like I said, most pricing issues will be handled with the membership program. Flexible pricing being the key phrase.
3) I think there will still be physical collectables for a lot of games. You'll still have collectors editions, and I'm 100% sure the NX will have some sort of retail presence ala Amiibo/NFC cards unlocking games on consoles, so collectors won't be left in the dark. But it will definitely be different.
@spemanig
No, but a 50gb console would not surprise me when it comes to nintendo... they're like the special child in the console battle...
I mean they could just put registration codes in physical retail games, then gamers can get discounts on those indie digital games I suppose.
Steam caters to pc gamers. Many pc gamers don't console game and vice versa. The two different markets care about different things. What works for pc won't necessarily work for consoles, nor vice versa. I mean, if steam charged you a subscription fee to play online multiplayer, I'm sure that would not fly with the pc crowd, though it is flourishing on the xbone and ps4.
People who complain loudest about lack of trade ins are those who want every new release, but can't always afford it, so they trade in the ones they got in the last two months for this new one.
Essentially, it's a poor people issue... or those who aren't old enough to enter the workforce and refuse to mow lawns... or there aren't enough lawns for all
I'll have to pull up the exact figures later, but I have an archived page from an old GamePro magazine issue, where they researched back in 2008 that the average $60 title had a very lopsided part of the price tag posted towards retail and production accommodations, including physical marketing and licensing. The majority of that funding is not needed anymore for digital releases... Which means that what used to be a $60 price tag SHOULD now be more like a $40-45 price tag, a $50 price tag should now be a $30-35 price tag, and so forth. (Hence why huge sales happen all the time in PC services without a hitch.) Digital only at the current retail prices is only worth it if it's DRM-free, and has some extra goodies. That's not ever the case for consoles, so a digital only console would be a total ripoff.
Also, since you gave a shout out to The Witcher 3, keep in mind that it was made by CD Project Red, which is a part of GOG.com, one of the few bastions of DRM-free digital gaming. They are mindful of good physical packaging for their premier titles, as well, so your encounter with such materials is now the exception, not the norm. It used to be the norm, but most companies can't be bothered anymore.
@khaosklub Yes, on the Xbox there is some sort of verification code on the disc so the console can check if it's an original game or a copy and there are some games that need that verification done online (hence the always online issue that Microsoft wanted to implement yet in the end didn't) but other than that, it isn't necessary. And older consoles can be hacked/modified to prevent such disc checks, thereby also giving a solution to my own wobbly theory of having to be ahead of some game breaking update that Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo might send to the console.
As for the law suit: the people have no leg to stand on and the lawyers that these companies use are far smarter and higher in number than any of us could ever hope to match. And as an example, although it was in relation to piracy, Nintendo already did something like that with both the Wii and the 3DS: if the Wii was modded or the 3DS had a certain flash card, then an update would brick the Wii and render the 3DS unplayable too.
If they can get away with stuff like that (even though that is more justified) then they could just as easily remove functionality or games from a list, even though you think that you own them.
And some things that up til now have been done offline, such as removing functionalities from consoles with every revised edition (looking at you, PS3) even though a lot of customers were mad about it, will also be implemented online since everything will move from the physical so both starting and ending services will be taken care of with the switch of a button.
And guess who's hands are floating above those buttons?
It's certainly not ours...
As for the production process: you knew I was going there, but it was also glaringly obvious since it is a matter of fact. Actually putting in a larger hard drive to accommodate for the much larger games that we'll have in the near future is going to drive up the cost WAY more than any other additional component will.
Example: a 2TB external HD can now be bought at a consumer price of around $99, and although that is cheap, and the console manufacturer will only have to pay around half of that, it is still considerably more expensive than that Blu-ray drive we talked about earlier.
The last part of your comment is definitely one we have to put in the agree to disagree department, since you seem to think I agree but I really don't since I don't want to be in the same boat with all the, dare I say it, near-comatose agreeing majority that thinks it's all so great and wonderful that all these things are slowly taken away from us, just because it is convenient. This is not meant as an insult, but simply as a statement of me seeing this as people not being (or wanting to be) aware and simply buying into everything because the nice companies say so.
Convenience can be good, but it doesn't always equal good.
My most important point in all of this, even though I've used a lot more words before, is that I would hope that more people are aware of this fact and not just lay down and accept everything just because "it is the way that things are going to be". That to me is sheeple behavior and shows little if any long term consideration for any events that will happen in the future. Events that have a VERY high probability of being a huge disadvantage to you as a gamer or proposed owner.
If the ultimate doom scenario would come to pass, that would mean that it leaves you with only an offline console with next to nothing to play on it...
But luckily it will not go as fast as some of us seem to hope so badly. @FlaygletheBagel makes yet another very good point as to why not, and in other countries/parts of the world there are hundreds of similar companies that will more or less lay down the law for Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo and they WILL have to abide to some extent.
Without retail they will have nothing to sell and the majority of people will probably agree that some developments go too fast. Just look at how Microsoft had to backpedal after the initial announcement of Xbox One. More than half of the things they first introduced have been either totally removed or have been significantly toned down to appease the customers.
I'm also expecting that companies are indeed going to tread lightly, or at least Microsoft will after the Xbox One debacle, but I'm realistic enough to know that this is an unavoidable future. Just be well aware of the cons instead of only the pros, that's all I'm saying. I'm still on the fence if the good really outweighs the bad, and maybe the future will prove me wrong, who knows?
But if not, then I will still have more than enough retro computers and consoles (Amiga, N64, Dreamcast, GameCube etc.) to last me a lifetime if in the end I just can't agree with how things have turned out.
Maybe we need to have this discussion again five years from now. Maybe you will then be speaking to a converted believer and I will be all for it. Or maybe not... ?
@spemanig That's a bit misleading. Steam constantly has huge sales, especially during holidays, while consoles almost never have such nice sales digitally. Not to mention, there are ways to force Steam titles to be used outside of the Steam infrastructure (as this article mentioned), while new consoles have no such option. Consoles have no DRM-free option, so digital only on consoles would be a total ripoff. The PSP Go is an example of one casualty of such poor decision making. If Nintendo goes that route with the NX, then we can probably expect similar failure.
While I do download smaller titles I generally buy the physical copy for larger titles like Smash. Even though I know it's probably not going to happen I'd really like to see disks be replaced with cartridges again. I feel like they have a higher collection value and I just love the feeling of loading up a cartridge.
@TheRealThanos Once again, my tears stream down like waterfalls in happiness for your common sense reasoning. The big problem is that almost no one reads those EULA agreements... The loss of desire for literacy in that regard is almost akin to postliterate NewSpeak...
@rjejr Okay, interesting but I understand your reservations. That takes care of what Echo is, but what about Alexa? Is that part of it or something similar?
@TheRealThanos
I'm sure that if you pay for a license to install a game on your console, they would be hard pressed to win a case where they ruined your legally installed game for no viable reason. Sony was facing a class action for their online services being off... also potential loss of private information.
You have a license, and I'm sure no one but EA would consider randomly removing a game from your old hardware.
And ps3 removed free services that made pirating waaay too easy. Waay better than bricking the console I think.
But see, that's another of my points. Look what backlash did to the xbone. Why would microsoft destroy your digital copies of games and give you a reason to run to sony?
And, nah, in 5 years, we'll both be complaining about the streaming subscription only future!
@khaosklub I think that's being unfairly irrational, to be frank. You're making them out to be dysfunctional.
But that's not what they said they'd be doing. And that wouldn't be nearly as effective anyway as a marketplace wide discount for every game purely on a consumer to consumer basis. Registration codes are also clunky, and goes completely against the whole purpose of getting rid of Club Nintendo, which was to make the rewards more seamless, direct, and instant.
There's literally nothing about Steam that wouldn't work for console gamers. PC has historically done everything before consoles have. PC gamers wouldn't pay for online because paying for online is absurd, especially on PC where the platform is not controlled. Steam is what consoles should be striving to emulate, and what the NX will be striving to emulate in many ways. The membership is basically Nintendo orchestrating their own "steam sales" ecosystem in their marketplace in a more controllable way.
It's an unfortunate issue for them, but it's one that is frankly unavoidable. I think you'll see the rise of rental streaming of games to cater to people like that, but they'll mostly get left in the dust. If you can't afford to get a full priced game at launch, you probably won't be getting a full priced game at launch.
@PlywoodStick
Psp go isn't so great an example. It was another psp that couldn't play umd's, which were psp games. I mean, playing nuts outside wasn't all too popular as was, but a lot of titles aren't available digitally. Take an unpopular handheld and make an updated version not compatible with your current physical library? Shoot, I bought my psp for mega man powered up, but it's not even playable at all on the go!
If psp was digital only from the getgo, it would only suffer from the price of the memorysticks
@khaosklub With PS3 removing functionality I was not merely hinting at the Unix/OtherOS capabilities but more towards the gradual, no: near instant removal of backwards compatibility, going from 60% in the first models to 20% and in the end almost none in the newer model PS3's.
Microsoft has kept backwards compatibility of the Xbox 360 at around 65% and never reduced or increased it. (something they did initially promise, but at least they didn't take away what was already there like Sony did)
@spemanig
And what about 8gb and an upgraded 32gb wiiU says functional about nintendo? They're late to the party on most things modern, and they don't do it all yo well either. They have by far the worst sales of the three major consoles, they worst online experiences in first party major titles, worst 3rd party dlc experience on the wii. They make fun games... that's about it. Maybe the nx will play dvds finally?
@PlywoodStick It's not at all misleading. Nintendo will be using the membership to emulate a Steam sale-like market ecosystem, and even without that, it's completely disingenuous to say that consoles don't have a substantial amount of digital sales. I'm all digital, and I know from experience that they do. Like I said, I've only purchased about 25% of my library at full price.
I don't know what you really mean by DRM-free. DRM is a non-issue. The only reason it was an issue for the XBO is because you literally could not use your XBO at all if it wasn't connected to the internet. That isn't an issue for literally any other console that supports digital distribution - mainly, the Wii U and 3DS. Any other DRM outside of that is run of the mill stuff the consumer will never notice unless they are pirates. DRM isn't some evil, anti consumer overlord. It's the managing of digital rights. That's it.
I was going to comment on the absurd PSP Go comparison, but khaosklub already addressed it. The PSP Go failed because it was a less funtional PSP, which was already rapidly declining in sales. It had nothing to do with consumer apathy for digital media.
@Kirk Only DRM-free offerings even come close to your proposition, and even then, all you can legally do is back up your games, not sell them. (And maybe share them with friends and family, but not strangers.) Those companies who do not embrace DRM-free will probably never be wise enough to take your suggestions seriously.
@TheRealThanos
Well, that wasn't really removed... not from consoles that had it. And all ps3's are backwards compatible... with psone games...
Only ps2 compatibility was dropped to reduce cost or something... though you can buy ps2 classics... not sure what the issue is there, but they didn't remove it from consoles that had it, but simply did not include it in future consoles
@khaosklub I've already addressed that adequately. No point beating that dead horse. They won't be late to the part with the NX, they'll be first. Everything they've been saying since Jan. 2014 has lead to that. It doesn't matter if they used to be late to the party on those things. They won't be to this. And that's obvious because they've literally been telling us exactly what they've been planning with the NX for like two years.
DVD's are antiquated media. The NX won't have a disc drive at all. Netflix/Hulu/etc is all the NX needs.
@khaosklub Not including sounds an awful lot like removing functionality to me. Tomay-to, tomah-to...
But if you had read my comment a bit more carefully I said that these were examples of doing things locally/physically and that with the move to digital, companies will be able to implement such console changes via online. I never said it was removed from existing consoles back then.
As for the license thing: Of course publishers are not going to pull the plug on current or popular games straight away, but that will eventually only last as long as the publisher wants to support it or as long as the console itself is officially supported, which brings me back to the original point of where that is going to leave the gamer when that happens and he or she still has a desire to revisit these games every now and then, even if for nothing else than a trip down memory lane or to show the kids what wonderful games mommy and daddy used to play.
With all due respect, but thinking you have such great support is also a part of this short term thinking I was talking about earlier: think further ahead into the future if you really want to understand my point, otherwise we're just going to continue to go around in circles.
@khaosklub Hm, didn't the Vita also go for it's own memory cards, with many digital offerings, and also fail miserably...? The price of memory sticks was one of the reasons why it failed.
@spemanig
Yeah, dvd's was a joke.
They also told us there wouldn't be stock issue with amiibo, and to trust them with federation force. Nintendo wants us to please understand that they don't understand.
When it comes to nintendo, I prefer to remain skeptical, well, really of any japanese company, and be pleasantly surprised when they prove me wrong.
Why aren't new 3ds' s compatible with sdxc cards without formatting them?
@PlywoodStick
I think the vita has game carts though. Sony's proprietary memorysticks are expensive, but the real reason vita failed is essentially the same reason wiiU is failing. Lack of games and 3rd party support.
Due to the lack of popularity of it's predecessor, and cost of producing games. The ds and 3ds were far cheaper to produce games for with a larger user base.
@spemanig I can address it later, but DRM is all-compassing in the digital only marketplace. It dictates what the customer can and cannot do. The reason why people aren't up in arms about it is because they aren't aware of what's being done. People think it's a non issue because they don't read those legal agreements they click "Agree" to without a second thought.
Imagine someone constantly being in the same room as you, controlling what you're doing, versus a nearly invisible program doing it... Of course, most people would be far more alarmed at the stranger in their room doing something. Either way, though, the effect is the same: your options and rights are being controlled externally, which is amplified in the console market.
Console environments cannot fully emulate Steam, GOG, or the like, because consoles lack the openendedness of PC's. Console digital sales also don't premier special sales anywhere near as highly as PC sales, whether it be for frequency or discount.
@khaosklub But they already addressed the stock issue with amiibo, and FF is purely a subjective matter. I think the game looks good. Crappy art style, but the gameplay is fine.
Because the N3DS isn't a digital only platform, which means that kind of compatibility will naturally not be prioritized. On the NX, it will be.
@PlywoodStick You're most welcome. I really don't need everyone to agree with me all the time, or have the people that do agree do so for the full 100% but it's nice to know that I'm not always writing these essays for nothing and that some find some enjoyment in reading them, maybe even because they share some of the same sentiments, like you do. Cheers...
@TheRealThanos
Kinda the same, but what you're suggesting through online is for content already on a console to be modified, while dropping backwards compatibility in newer modrks doesn't effect owners of previous models. Would you say nintendo removed online from the wii?
Again, this whole while it's supported thing confuses me. Are the psp, wii, and dsi still supported? When they are not, are you suggesting my games will vanish? I don't think you are, but about them not being downloadable later, if I maintain my unit and memory device, I can have those games forever like you maintaining discs and carts.
As for online centric games, physical versions are unplayable too when support is dropped, right? Take splatoon for example. When nintendo stops supporting that game in the future, whst advantage does the physical version have over the digital in terms of playing the game?
@PlywoodStick The reason they aren't up in arms about it is because it literally doesn't effect them. Nobody cares. Nobody cares that those rights are being "violated" because most consumers will never run into issues where they'd need to exercise those rights or because those rights aren't important enough to outweigh the pros of an all digital ecosystem. It just does not matter.
They can get close enough to where the differences become negligible. Consoles don't need the openness of PCs to go digital. Apple proves this. If Android is analogous to Steam (it is) then the NX will be analogous to iOS. Closed platform. DRM everywhere. Still dominates. The only reason digital sales aren't higher is because there is no platform on consoles that exists to prioritize them. That will change with the NX, and it will dominate because of it.
@TheRealThanos "Echo is, but what about Alexa"
Echo is the device and Alexa is the voice. Or something. I guess it's kind of like a Dalek, which most people seem to assume is a robot, not knowing it's simply the armored suit for a horrible little creature inside. Like Independence Day.
@spemanig
When did they address the stock issue? Why can't I find any amiibo cards for my girl anywhere? Where are the metaknights? I have yet to see bowser jr. Where are the stock issue addressings?
Well, they're telling us that they know what's best for us, and we should shut up and consume. Federation force being good is like the worst knews for metroid fans! Y'know, I like the wario land games, but am not particularly fond of warioware... guess which one performs better and which one we'll never see again?
Still, the 3ds has plenty of digital only games. I would think that if the darn thing will bother me to check out games on the eshop, they'd make sure higher capacity sd cards were compatible! Tell me to go check out the games in retail stores instead then!
@khaosklub They can't do it all at once, but it is being addressed and fast. There have been massive amigo restocks everywhere.
I'm a Metroid fan who thinks Prime was a step in the wrong direction, and even I'm not blind to FF's quality. It's just a spin off. Relax.
Doesn't matter if it has a billion digital only games. It's a physical media platform. They don't need to provide any accommodations when the games that will sell them most are available physically. Also, 32GB is more than enough. I have 32GB, and I haven't come close to fulling it up. And I own literally all of my games digitally. If you're made a commitment to buy so many retail optionally digital games that you've maxed out the default 32GB maximum, you have no right to complain about reformatting. I won't if I ever need to.
@Kirk Don't know and don't care,
I just found it amusing to debunk something so boring and loooooong with such a short comment.
Could never be bothered reading something that long on a forum.
If the jist was he says download is bad and retail is king, then he is wrong,
In my opinion, and also in the general evolution of media distribution.
Why not release two NX's? One with a large harddrive and no optical and one with a moderate hard drive and optical?
@khaosklub
I disagree, I think the argument is if Nintendo can show consumers enough value only. To me there is little reason for either side to care what the other does. From a business perspective, it's more profitable for Nintendo to sell downloads. But if they move too soon or don't implement it correctly it will fail. This isn't an innovation like HDTV which took off fast and was obviously the way of the future. A physical game plays 99.9% the same as a digital game. It's also been 2 full generations with developers pushing downloads and them still not becoming the preferred play type by consumers.
On the Zelda thing, I just think people buying a console for Zelda want the Wii U Windwaker. I preordered TriForce Heroes for single player knowing it'll be rough. But I wanted Zelda anyway.
@Spemanig
I'm just floored by your optimism. Certainly Nintendo is trying new things, but inevitably many of those things will fail. I'm not going to pick your post apart point by point because I feel we are too far apart with where we see this going. But I will touch on 1. DeNA is proof Nintendo cares about downloads? They are a small company that focuses on helping developers get mobile games going. Size Nintendo has $572 billion in revenue to $2 billion in revenue for DeNA. I never heard of them before the purchase as I assume nobody had outside of Japan. They are part of Nintendo's mobile game strategy (which we largely know nothing about) and most likely won't touch the NX. Even if the did, it's unlikely they have a comprehensive plan to develop a download platform that could rival Nontendo's competitors. That's my skepticism really. Nintendo no doubt wants a stronger download/online presence but everytime they do something they are still 5+ years behind the competition. And some of it is engrained and likely won't change. I.E. voice chat. Do you think Nintendo will really ever have real voice chat? Sure, it's a cesspool and some people don't care but alot of people do. Nintendo will never be the defacto online gaming platform without voice chat.
@spemanig
The cards exist to avoid stock issues! That was the point of cards! Bowser jr was one of the recent releases, should have been plenty of him!
Warioware was "just a spinoff". I also understand where you come from with prime being a step in the wrong direction. I do like the game, but I consider it a different series from 2D metroid.
Also, I like overcompensating for memory, rather have way more than I need!
@cleveland124
That's a risky venture, making both flavors, not knowing what demand for either or would be... though it would be similar to their 2ds idea.
2 full generations? Wii focused on virtual console games, and psn didn't really push until later in the consoles life. WiiU has retail digital games, slowly catching up to the others, while ps4 and xbone are still relatively new.
Sony and microsoft are doing pretty well with digital discounts as of recently, and sony tried to push digital with the pspgo I suppose.
I wouldn't say there have been any strong pushes towards downloads, mostly just nudges.
I can see both sides of the coin here, but I'm definitely pro download only. I never seem to make it in time OR have the money (at the time of release) for any of the special limited super mega ultra platinum holy-hell-why-didn't-they-make-enough-of-these-so-i-could-buy-one editions. They're always sold out before I can even think about getting what I want. That kind of burnt me out on the collectors stuff. Plus I really hate having a disc that takes up space and can get scratched. Just another thing that can go wrong in my opinion. Don't get me started on streaming, I'll never be ok with that. Or any kind of subscription service for that matter. But if we have to keep it physical for the next gen, let's go back to good ol' dependable cartridges/cards. They work so great for 3DS and Vita
@khaosklub It is actually really simple, but for some reason we keep talking past each other instead of WITH each other. Let me give it a final try:
I'm not debating handheld downloads, that's also slightly different from consoles and handhelds don't have that explicit need to be online, at least up til now...
The PS3 modification does count as it was done in an existing model, revision or not. If the backwards compatibility was removed when moving on to PS4 there would be no argument from me, but now Sony removed it from an existing console run. Microsoft did not remove the compatibility when introducing the slim model so there's the difference.
And Wii's are even to this day compatible with ALL GameCube titles, since the hardware is the same, so even in Wii's that don't have the GameCube ports anymore, access to the GameCube functionalities can be achieved by soft modding that will once again give the user access to the already present GameCube capabilities in the hardware. It isn't emulated, it is simply a switch to turn the service back on. If you're curious about it, look up a program called Nintendont. It also works on the Wii U while in Wii mode. Play all your GameCube titles on the Wii U without having to wait for Nintendo to finally release them on VC or as a remake. And in better picture quality as the original too...
But I digress: so, games downloaded that don't need online access or updates will indeed forever stay on your console or handheld, but what I meant with the whole "as long as it is supported" is for games that have more (or an inherent) need for online, like first person shooters, racing games, rpg games and so on. Although most of these games do have an offline, single (or like you said indeed even an offline multiplayer) component, having these games always do their online check (I recently had the same with an Xbox360 game that I hadn't played in a long time: I first had to download an update, otherwise I couldn't even start up the game) also makes it possible to render said games unplayable at some time in the future (say 5 to 6 years from now) at the publisher's leisure.
I can't make it any simpler than that. People move on to the next console, but some will want to keep their old one as well and will still want to play these games, but companies could very well decide to block these older consoles so they can't check their games online, and can't re-download them anymore because the server has been taken down.
Older games will only reappear because companies want to offer them, much like the Microsoft and Sony premium programs, offering you downloads of older titles for free when you have a subscription or by means of some repack or HD re-imagining, such as the PS4 Uncharted bundle or Virtual Console offerings and the like.
So you thinking you can download these games forever is either delusional (which I don't think you are), way too gullible/trusting towards companies (which probably also better applies to some other people) or simply a case of not thinking long term enough but either way it's certainly not realistic, since a move to a new generation of consoles always makes companies decide which games they will continue to support or not.
An example could be Halo 2. Yes, it is a very old game and logically they can't go on indefinitely, but it was still massively popular online, long after the Xbox 360 had been released, so people kept playing it because the Xbox 360 could also run the game. Then after a couple of years into the live of the Xbox 360, Microsoft decided to pull the plug on online support for original Xbox games on Xbox 360 and poof!! a whole community of online Halo 2 fans was left with nothing, other than the fact that at least in that generation a lot of games were also still playable offline, so it was still partially functional but they had little or no interest in the single player campaign, so it was of little comfort. I believe there was even a petition to re-instate support, but it wasn't successful.
Halo 2 multiplayer is still very popular, by the way, except the online gamers have moved to the PC and have started their own community and dedicated server to continue playing, but obviously this is not officially supported, and THAT is what I'm talking about. Again: think looooong term, as in well after the console gets replaced by a newer model or the next generation. (hence also the mommy and daddy comment I made in the previous comment)
I can still play all my 200+ Dreamcast games now, and there are no such restrictions. Also, none of them are damaged, scratched, deteriorated or whatever. It is also partially your own responsibility to take care of your things. If you handle your game discs normally and your console isn't scratching them for you, then how the hell could you damage a disc other than letting other people in your household getting their hands on them? (which is also more or less your own responsibility)
Time will eventually catch up with disc media and probably do something to corrode the discs, but for now it still functions like it used to do when I used it on a daily basis and that will by FAR outlast any online service or subscription because it is not subject to changes made by exterior factors, aka publishers/developers/console manufacturers.
And that is a measure of ownership and longevity that a fully online and download-only subscription cannot and never will deliver, if only for the costs involved. Belief what you will but that truly is the final outcome of this comparison.
@rjejr A Dalek? Exterminate!!!
@khaosklub
Couldn't you use surveys and adjust demand as needed? How long did it take to sell out the initial Wii U stock? It seems all lauches are risky.
I guess I was counting the wii and wii u gens as done when the nx launches. It's hard to find old data on what was available at what times. The original xbox had downloadable content and arcade games and steam launched in 2002 so I think my point still stands that the shift has been slow. And part of the market segmentation between steam and consoles is because some console owners reject the steam download/drm model.
@TheRealThanos
I was referring to the removal of wifi in the red wii's are removal of things in new hardware, I think it's just a new version with different stuff made to be affordable, like how the 2ds has no 3D, except it's like the entire ps3 line.
anyway, the point I'm making is that with an example like splatoon. say you buy it today physically and I buy it today digitally. 30 years from now, I probably won't be able to redownload it, and you'd be likely hardpressed to find a reasonably priced copy out in the wild. So long as you maintain the disc itself, you can always just find a wiiU in the wild if your console breaks down and play the game in the future. my claim is that if I buy it digitally, so long as I maintain my console for 30 years, I can still play my game. essentially, the console itself is my physical copy, except it's a physical copy of many games at once.
regardless of whether it's a physical or digital copy though, it's doubtful that either of us can play online multiplayer in that game, and even if nintendo left the servers up anyway, no one else would be playing. we can both enjoy the single player and co-op modes.
sure, there are games that require online verification every time, and i don't buy those games. not physically, nor digitally. I vote with my wallet.
and I do think I CAN redownload my digital game 30 years down the line... it's definitely possible, but if the data will still be there to be redownloaded at a later date is up in the air. I don't think it really costs the company much to store the games, as data gets cheaper and games get larger and larger, the relative size of older games will be minor. servers do take up physical space, and data may be lost with time, but it's possible that they will just keep the games available for at least 20 years?
steam though, I'm sure I'll be able to redownload my steam games from 5 years ago 15 years from now... but when gabe croaks or retires, who knows what direction things will go in.
I can also back up my digital copes of games and restore them later down the road and make several redundant copies... though you can also do that with physical games too...
@cleveland124
well, surveys are only as reliable as your sample group. people can lie or change their mind or go broke, etc.
PC and consoles are very separate ecosystems. steam has done nothing for the push of digital games on consoles. xbox had download games, but it came late in it's gen if I recall correctly, and didn't really push it, just had it... though as a non xbox player, don't know to well.
wiiU was the first nintendo home console to have retail downloads, right? don't recall any on the wii. PS3 didn't have much of a eshop until their console started picking up steam, about 2 years after release?
and I'm pretty sure console gamers mostly avoid steam because gaming on a computer takes some technical know-how, even to know if you can play a game on your machine! consoles are convenient because you don't have to worry about compatibility. you can pc game without steam, right?
@khaosklub
But steam is the default standard of downloadable gaming and Sony and Microsoft have taken some of those ideas and implemented them well. If you are not paying attention to steam you are missing a big opportunity and you should not release a download only console. Not saying steam is perfect but but most stats it's the biggest download site surpassing and there are likely more active users than Sony or Microsoft boasts.
It seems like we'll have to agree to disagree. Steam and Wii U constantly go for my same dollars. I bought Terreria (among others) on Steam for 1.99 so I'm no longer interested in the Wii U version so I see them as direct competitors. I think narrowly defining your competitors causes you to make decisions (sometimes poor) in a vacuum.
Computers have traditionally been more difficult but that's changing. Consoles are getting more complicated with drm and constant connections and they may even come to the table with different types of hardware if nx is a two hardware model (handheld unit and home unit) and there were some rumblings nintendo would look at an apple type model with annual nx hardware updates with a core operating system between it. On the converse side, steam has gotten much easier. The old core 2 duo is minimum specs for most games. All games will work on a modern os. Most games auto config hraphics to give you the best user experience off the bat. Computers come with hdmi out standard now and you can use a 360 or xbox1 controller easily.
I'm sure some people are really scared of pc, but I had Wii, ps3, 360 last round. This round I have steam and Wii U as steam has completely replaced the Sony/Microsoft systems for me. I'm still a Nintendo fanboy at heart, but if they continue to make poor decisions I could see myself moving to Steam only next gen.
@khaosklub If your point was the example you gave with Splatoon, then you should have elaborated a bit more in an earlier comment; that would have at least gotten that part out of the way...
It is, as I said in my previous comment actually something we agree on: games that can be downloaded on handhelds or consoles that do NOT require online services are (for all intent and purposes) eternally yours for as long as your system keeps working, but on the other hand, games that do require a significant online component are not.
Since we haven't really been talking before (as far as I can recall) maybe I should tell you a little bit about myself and thereby explain at least in part why I keep saying some things with so much certainty. I'm a 45yo sales & marketing account manager with over 14 years of experience working in the IT branch, and having worked for the big three companies (Microsoft, Google & HP) and a couple of lesser giants, It's fair to say that at least concerning online, hardware and services I know a thing or two, and most of these things are also applicable for the gaming industry, even more so now they are starting to look more and more like PC's.
"regardless of whether it's a physical or digital copy though, it's doubtful that either of us can play online multiplayer in that game, and even if nintendo left the servers up anyway, no one else would be playing. we can both enjoy the single player and co-op modes."
If Nintendo left the servers up, people would play as long as there is a community that wants to keep playing online. (see my Halo 2 example)
"and I do think I CAN redownload my digital game 30 years down the line... it's definitely possible, but if the data will still be there to be redownloaded at a later date is up in the air. I don't think it really costs the company much to store the games, as data gets cheaper and games get larger and larger, the relative size of older games will be minor. servers do take up physical space, and data may be lost with time, but it's possible that they will just keep the games available for at least 20 years?"
Well, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no: you will DEFINITELY not be able to download your game again after 30 years. Just look at DSiWare and how much has already disappeared from that catalog. It made me miss out on this little gem that I played at a friend's house, because by the time I had my DSi it was no longer available: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOmUHsXwA6k. It's pseudo 3D but on the DSi and in real life it looks even more amazing than in this trailer. It got mixed reviews because of issues in low light (it uses the front camera for face tracking to create the 3D effect) but I thought it was great regardless.
The same goes for WiiWare, Xbox Live Arcade (and a hefty chunk of demos as well, that were fully functional offline) and probably also for PS Network and/or PSP/Vita downloads.
To get back to my Halo 2 example: the support was pulled after approximately 14 years, give or take a year and that has been one of the longest running online multiplayer games on consoles, so to expect a minimum of 20 years is very unrealistic, to say the least.
The cost involved is not only for running servers, but also for monitoring and moderating (both games and lobbies), server maintenance, server replacement (servers that are running 24/7 don't last more than 6 to 8 years max in general) and firmware upgrading and so on. I've probably even missed a few factors. And obviously it would not be just for one game, but for hundreds of games, making the total cost of maintaining all these services so high that it would eat into any profit that they would still be able to squeeze out of it through online subscriptions and in the end that would also be detrimental to their overall profit margin. That wouldn't be a very good business model at all...
That is also the reason why Halo 2 online multiplayer was discontinued: once the scales tip towards the negative regarding cost vs profit/gains, there really is no valid reason anymore for them to keep running the servers, regardless of the users. Don't even think for a minute that you have any control over that or that you can sue them for malpractice or whatever.
In 5 to 8 years complete server farms will be replaced or phased out and companies will then assess the previously mentioned cost vs gains and act accordingly to setup and install the new servers.
Well, I don't know about you, but I've answered all your questions and addressed most of your counter arguments, so I'm kinda out of more things to say on the matter and I don't want to keep going back to the same things. Everything is there in my previous comments and I hope that with this truly final wall of text you can connect the dots and understand my points and more importantly, the whole reason behind them.
If not, then let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. A healthy discussion is fine by me any day of the week, but at some point there needs to be some progress, don't you think?
Peace..
@shani Well, like I said in my response, physical is cheaper at retail than digital is - at least in the US. And without the ability to resell or lend out my games, digital is already worth less than half of the value of physical to me.
Digital pricing needs to beat physical. Until that time, I oppose an all digital future because publishers have proven they will only continue to price gouge us
Physical media all the way. Gamers should have the option to try pay what they think a game is worth rather than what in this case Nintendo think they're worth. I'm looking squarely at three year old Wii U trading hands for £10 on discs and still £49.99 on eshop. Whose valuation is closer to the mark?
Then there's the collectable and resale arguments. No contest.
@russellohh Valve/Steam isn't Sony (PlayStation), Microsoft (XBox) or Nintendo - It's one of those 3 who I'm talking about.
I buy both physical and digital. I weight the pros and cons of each before deciding.
The cost is the main deciding factor for me, I have Best Buy Gamers Club Unlocked ($30 for 2 years) and save %20 on any new game ($12 off a $60 game). So based off that fact alone, a digital new release has to have some sort of discount.
Next, is how confident I am that the game will be good enough that I won't want to resell it. If I'm uncertain, then I will probably get a physical copy so if need be, I can trade it in towards another game.
Lastly, are the extras that come with a physical release. I only care about certain ones, like steelbook cases but I could care less about statues. So it isn't always that important to me. I take it on a game by game basis. Like the article mentioned, Witcher 3 had a great release and I got a steelbook case for preordering.
Lastly, my big concern with digital purchases is the problem with licensing issues. If you don't keep a game downloaded on your hard drive and delete it to make space for a new game, with the expectation you can download it again in the future, that may not be the case. There have been several games that get removed from the digital store because of licensing issues. Many come back after the issues are resolved but some never do. With a physical copy, I will always have it and while I may lose some of the multiplayer function if servers are shut down, I should still be able to play the base game forever.
So for me there are pros and cons to both.
So I agree with the article that both need to make changes. Reduce console digital download prices to fall in line with PC game pricing and quicker discounts. Also, improving physical game releases with better manuals and including a map, like Witcher 3 did, would help to keep physical sales healthy.
They could also sell a usb disc drive add on if you think it's too complicated to sell a version with optical and wo optical.
@DESS-M-8 Well, that's why you're wrong. Because he never quite said that, and you never quite read, so you'd not know any better.
@PlywoodStick Tell me about it.
@Mando44646 I think they will price gouge us no matter what the medium is. Until people start to boycott. ^^
@spemanig If that ends up happening, the Wii U will be my final Nintendo console. I'll just go PC and Retro/previous gen. Also, both iOS and Android are closed platforms, they just have two different philosophies of developing one. This situation has been described rather extensively by the creators of F-Droid. Homebrew and privacy/security-based Android apps that don't comply with Google's restrictions aren't allowed on the Google Play Store, same as with iOS. Your analogy doesn't quite work...
@PlywoodStick Nintendo frankly won't care. They'll get enough new and returning players to make people like you insignificant.
@cleveland124 Don't be. I'm the biggest critic of Nintendo, but I actually pay attention to their movements. They are going about this the absolute right way.
Many of them won't fail, because they aren't setting themselves up for failure. They are doing all the right things with the NX.
No, DeNA is proof that Nintendo is taking assertive, financial steps towards a modern, unified firmware ecosystem. It doesn't matter that they are small. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the partnership because DeNA was not purchased to help with mobile games at all. That came later. This isn't speculation. This is literally confirmed by both DeNA and Nintendo. The reason they were purchased was to aid Nintendo's development of a unified platform aka the membership program. That's why, if you were actually reading and paying attention, you'd have seen them repeatedly say that they were only doing "backend" stuff, and when asked to clarify, they pointed to, guess what, Mobage, the mobile platform they championed in Japan aka the only reason they are a valuable asset to Nintendo.
That's what they are doing for Nintendo. Not mobile games, but platform infrastructure, which includes mobile because that is a big part of their plan. But the membership, which they are confirmed to be working on, is the core of the NX. That's confirmed. So it's not me being optimistic. It's me using my brain.
Voice chat is a completely separate issue. It has nothing to do with platform infrastructure.
@spemanig People like me? I'm in the USA, in a relatively well connected area, so I would be one of the least affected by such policies. I am affected by choice. It is the tens or even hundreds of millions of people elsewhere on the planet, who could become potential customers, that such heavy DRM policies would be spurning. It is the people who don't live in the biggest market nations (and those who live in rural areas of big market nations) who get screwed the most, and I worry about the tyranny of DRM more for their sake than mine.
Shouldn't Nintendo be trying to grow their market, rather than enforcing such restrictions to just stick to their... 10 million potential returning Wii U players? Plus maybe some of their 3DS players? And only in the big market nations? That's why Sony and PC are bigger than Nintendo everywhere else. That kind of arrogance, to say others who don't neatly fit in to the master plan are insignificant. I'd like to think Nintendo will learn from their mistakes, rather than make new ones.
@Kirk I never said he'd said that.
I was making a wild assumption based on the fact I couldn't be arsed reading it because it was such a ridiculously long post. It wasn't a comment relevant to what he was saying, it was a comment on how long the post was.
@TheRealThanos
Well, considering how all of nintendo's eshop titles can probably fir on a terrabyte harddrive, it wouldn't be hard to keep these games on their servers and move them to the next server they get to replace them, especially as memory keeps getting cheaper.
And those examples of games being removed were from the beginning of digital distribution, as it becomes the norm, these issues will become that which the consumer cares about. I believe that in the near future, that issue will be addressed, probably starting with movies.
So, while personally, I don't expect to be able to redownload in 20 years (who knows if today's consoles will even work with 20 years from now tv's!), there is a possibility that I may be able to as digital distribution becomes the norm and evolves.
Aside from that, we basically agree on everything. I don't buy games that require online validation everytime I play except on steam. What matters is that either games should not require online validation everytime to play and should not require a patch to play, or they can, but this requirement must be removed before the servers go down.
I hope that there is no physical media on the NX. make my life a lot easier
@spemanig
"if you were actually paying attention and reading" "It's my using my brain"
Kinda rude, but I guess if that's your thing more power to you.
I still think you are insanely optimistic. I added the link below on DeNA. If you have something better link it my way. The big piece of DeNA to me still seems to be the 5 game mobile licensing agreement they reference. To me it's vague on what DeNA is doing with the membership program other than they mentioned it's coming and it's a necessary 1st step towards having games on phones tied to an account. They could have worked on the phone infrustructure, they could have worked on the Wii U infrustructure or they could have worked on neither and Nintendo is just keeping them in the loop. You could say this membership program will become the base on the NX, but I see no proof they have done anything with the NX.
What I do see is they don't seem to have a lot of expertise in designing membership programs, their mobage network is micro-trans garbage, and they already missed their fall target for releasing the membership program. I'm a need to see it to believe it person. If they bring it great. But I'm not going to get hyped on a few quotes especially with Nintendo's track record.
I brought up voice chat because I don't think people aren't buying a Wii U because of membership program and account ID concerns. Yeah, those need to improve but there are other things that need to improve significantly for the NX to be a success (sell 50 million).
http://www.polygon.com/2015/5/12/8590509/nintendos-new-crossplatform-membership-service-will-likely-launch
@khaosklub Luckily we do agree on almost everything, which is always a nice point to reach and being a bit firm in discussions only shows that we're passionate about things that concern us or keep us busy, and that in turn is what makes us human, so it's all good...
One slight niggle that I have, though is the whole server issue, to which you still seem to be missing the most important point, so please bear with me while I give that another go:
Maybe most of the current eShop content could fit on a terabyte, but we are also looking at AAA titles and newer titles to come on the NX. And larger games that offer online multiplayer get their own, dedicated server, so it wouldn't just be one server for all these games, but each game on it's own server.
The issue therefore isn't server space, but server maintenance and all the other services and the continuing cost that's the result of that will make it highly unlikely that games will be supported/downloadable ad infinitum.
To make an analogy just think of the circus act with the guy spinning all the plates on sticks: he can only run so fast, so he can only manage a certain number of spinning plates to prevent one from dropping to the floor.
Now translate all the separate spinning plates to servers and imagine that each of these servers represents a cost package per game for maintenance, moderating and lobby services to name some of the more apparent costs and then imagine that at some point the catalog of games will extend to several consoles and maybe even handhelds.
As we speak, Nintendo's online service is still free, but things like these cost millions and millions of dollars, so it's a negative balance for them, which might make them reconsider for the NX, or maybe we'll get a free and a premium version, much like Playstation.
Now, while the other two parties do have paid subscriptions for online gaming, they still make very little money (if any) if you would only play old games online. They want to continuously migrate their customers to the newer games on the newer servers because that is where the revenue is and it is just not profitable to keep servers running for the first generation of games (let alone games from a previous console gen) when the console is already being provided with second or third generation games.
So, if the balance tips towards the cost of keeping the servers up being higher than the profit they can make on it, then the servers will logically be discontinued. It's nothing personal, it's simply a sound business solution. Regardless of the people they still have to make money to remain profitable.
@TheRealThanos
The thing is, I'm assuming that there are different servers for storing games to be downloaded, and to be used by the actual games. The servers used for the actual game like for online multiplayer are irrelevant here because they effect physical copies the same way as digital copies.
Triple A titles two gens ago were under a GB, and was a decent size for back then in early 2000's, but now is nothing. Last gen, aside from nintendo, games were about 10 to 20 gb. In 2006, it might have been a bit, but now 3TB is normal. What I'm asserting is that to keep these titles on the online stores in the future will be effortless, because size of the entire library of digital titles from previous consoles will likely be comparable to a triple A title.
Though the profitability argument is rather sound, they may discontinue them on purpose so you buy the newest console... but that would likely piss off digital collector consumers and win rivals who keep old games available for redownload more fans.
I love my ps3 and all it's games. I have loads of digital games, but the ps4 is not compatible with those games. That coupled with paying to play online is why I will not buy a ps4... unless they get a mega man game exclusive... but seeing how ps4 is more like a pc hardware wise, it's digital titles may end up playable on the ps5.
I think it all will boil down to how consumers vote with their wallet and how much we complain when they try to pull those kind of stunts, like when microsoft first introduced the xbone
@khaosklub
Well, you may well be assuming way too much. I know what I'm talking about, I used to sell servers: a server contains several hard drives and for the sake of sequential storage and archiving it is WAY more likely that they will keep files for the same game together, meaning that the dedicated server per game I talked about earlier contains all files for a game, both for complete downloads/DLC and for online gaming, so if one part goes, its more than likely that the rest goes with it. unless the company decides against it for whatever reason. (none of these reasons concerning the customer demanding them to, by the way)
The 1st gen and 2nd gen games I was talking about are the waves of games that have appeared on this generation of consoles, NOT previous consoles. Consoles have generations, but so do games. Typically, there are 3 or 4 generations of games on a console during its life cycle, each generation progressively better looking because the developers get to know the hardware better and learn to squeeze more out of it. For example: the first gen Xbox 360 games looked only slightly better than original Xbox games, but the 4th gen games looked quite good, and some were actually even slightly on the heavy side for the hardware, making it stutter in places.
So the " ...were under a GB" comment is completely irrelevant. First gen games on the current consoles are well over 25GB for triple A and several GB's for downloadable. With the current portfolio of games available on all three consoles that means that any one of them can easily fill a few multi-terabyte servers.
The profitability argument is not only sound, it is actually how it works, and it will not piss off customers (at least not to an extent that it matters enough, as the Halo 2 example I gave you shows), since it has already been done several times before in the past, and they will keep doing it.
In that aspect there are also no rivals, since all three companies manage their server farms like this. Microsoft and Sony obviously on a much larger scale, but still...
And for some reason you keep clinging to the size thing, which as I already explained is a complete non-issue. Even if they had to run just a couple of small hard drives for all the old games, they will STILL look at what they get in return for the courtesy they do the consumer and if that turns out to be something that levels out at a zero balance or a negative one, then they will pull that server. Simple as that. Companies aren't in the business of doing people favors, that's just a coinciding effect of delivering a quality product. Other than that, they are just in the business of making a nice profit.
When I was still working for HP, I regularly sold slightly larger blade servers to companies than they actually needed, persuading them with a story about the growth percentage of data, so "of course they should be prepared for that", and most companies bought the story. It wasn't complete bull, but oftentimes I could have gone for smaller ones. Then again, that wouldn't have earned me any bonuses...
@Sean_Aaron wrote: "There is no reason why current limitations of people's internet connections couldn't be overcome by in-store kiosks where you could do the download and burn to disc or SD. "
You mean like the Nintendo Power cartridge in Japan during the Super Famicom era?
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