Talking Point: Competitive Gaming With Super Smash Bros. and More Can Be Vital for Nintendo

I definitely think Splatoon has the potential to be competitive. It would be amazing to see Splatoon as competitive shooter, after they finish updating and patching it of course.

when you talk about nintendo and its competitive potentional, it makes sense the things like smash and MK would come to mind. But lets not forgot that their are many more franchises nintendo could competitvely push in some uniqe way. While splatoon has the greatest potentional, lets not forget splatoon is a new ip. i dont think its quite ready for serious play just yet, maybe in the next splatoon game i hope. Another franchise they could push more competitvely(go ahead and groan i know their coming) is pokemon. It has its own WORLD cup, thats more then anything else nintendo could get involved in. I know its unlikely since pokemon international likes to do things on its own, but it would be nice if the big N gave its competitve sence more attention. Anyways thats just my 2 cents on the matter. I certainly see a bright competitive future for nintendo as a whole.

"Mario Kart 8 is an obvious contender, with its competitive and record scene being full of enthusiasm but without securing the attention of other eSports areas."

MK8 has virtually no competitive scene. The MK8 section of mkboards.com and mariokartwii.com is practically dead compared to what it was when MKWii was in its prime. The item distribution and balance is just ruined, and although there is plenty of fun to be had with the game, it just isn't a skill driven game that makes for a competitive experience; it's a party game.

The upcoming Tourney mode for the online competitive play, will it come to 3DS aswell? Or just for the Wii U version?

Mario Kert 8 would never work imo, actually, i dont know about any racing game in the eSports scene.

Splatoon could work out with a few updates (or maybe next iteration), Smash/pokemon are already stablished would be better if Nintendo pushes them even further (especially Pokemon, i could become a HUGE hit in the eSports scene i mean).

But before anything like that happens, Nintendo really needs to change some of their decisions, they need to add (globally) voice chat, private matches, a "guild" system, options, and money to put in tournaments

If not, Nintendo will never make a crack.

I'm not that bothered about competitive gaming since I find it much more fun just to play the game without having to learn all of the mechanics at an intricate level of detail. Still, it'll be a good thing for Nintendo to make their games more competitive-friendly since it could boost sales from the people that enjoy this.

Seeing as I'm part of that "small fan campaign that seeks to make Splatoon more suitable for competition". It really could be a good competitive game, if that august update allows private lobbies to choose their teams and mode etc. then all Splatoon would really need is a LAN mode and a spectator mode before the scene could really start to grow. Splatoon doesn't really need voice chat either as let's face it, the Wii U GP microphone sucks and is nothing compared to a headset with a built-in mic and teamspeak.

Yes, Nintendo has to do this, make games competitive so people want to play them in tournaments.

@Monado_III Yeah the August update will allow you to create private teams with your friends. You can even participate in ranked with it and your allowed to select maps, modes, and I believe they also said that you could choose the rules. Lots of cool stuff.

@Aromaiden "will allow you to create private teams with your friends" AFAIK we don't yet know if the game will randomly choose the teams or if you can manually set them. I'd assume the latter but Nintendo has done weirder things before.

@Monado_III I believe the Splatoon Direct, said you could choose them. Although it has been a while since I've seen the Splatoon Direct. Let me take another look.

Edit: Never mind they don't really explain everything in detail. So it's probably best to just wait for them to either explain it in a future event or when the actually update it.

@Aromaiden it says you an make a team with your friends and than search for others, it really depends on what 'search' means (like the game randomly pairs you up or can you actually search different groups). And for friend lobbies it doesn't specifically state if you can pick your teams.

Mario Kart wouldn't work because of obvious reasons (the item distribution is just broken,it punishes you for being good, and it's almost entirely based on luck. To whoever at Nintendo said that it wasn't based on luck a while back, I wholeheartedly disagree, and can't help but question if we've even played the same game. Also, the blue shell needs to die. It's wole existence is just plain cruel, and there have been times where I've been hit with it despite never being in first to begin with!), but I can see Splatoon work in the competitive scene.

@Monado_III I know. I already corrected my comment a few minutes after I posted it, after I checked again.

Supporting the competitve scene can really help a lot, but Nintendo doesn't really do that. Or maybe they don't want to. I don't know why, but Nintendo has that really bad habit of not giving a player the knowledge required to truly master some of their games, and it's often very impacting mechanics and functions that fall victim to this.

Look no further than Pokémon: the competitive scene for X/Y and OR/AS is large, if the many official torunaments are of any indication, yet none of the games ever explain stuff like advanced breeding, IV mechanics, or anything. The most they did was barely hint at it with the super training minigame, which essentially is nothing more than a minigame tacked onto stats growth items.
Super Smash Bros. follows the same principle without hesitation (from Melee onward, that is - the first game was hilariously broken). It never provides insight on advanced techniques (despite having been intentionally added/left in), playstyles, or even strategies. Without a guide or the help of a community, it's downright impossible to reach competitive levels on your own, since too many things are dynamic and reliant on enemy position, input, damage percentage, and character choice.
And Splatoon is guilty of the very same central issue. Reaching a competitve playstyle is mostly getting a feel for the effectiveness of your weapon(s), but the skill system and its intricacies are so cryptic and sloppy, it's almost laughable that you actually need a guide to tell you how it works at all. And even then, getting the desired skills is a frustrating and repetitive slog to endure.

I've said it before in rants about Smash 4, but it extends to basically every Nintendo game that is currently having some sort of competitive scene going: Nintendo refuses to provide any explanation for advanced mechanics and playstyles in their games. And in all honesty: if you need the help of external sources to fully understand how a game works on a competitive level, the game does something infuriatingly wrong.

While playing Splatoon, I actually often pictured it being a competitive game in the near future, I think that's indeed realistic. The game is suited well for that already, it just needs the custom lobbies and a financial push from Nintendo. Or they could just announce more official Nintendo tournaments.
Why leave that to others when Nintendo could make his own big pro competition? Maybe an ongoing year-long league or just a high number of tournaments worldwide.

@greengecko007 Dude you're so wrong! Have you played MK online on the higher levels? It's super competitive and has nothing to do with a party game. Actually, since MK Wii it became more of a competitive game and less of a party game for me.
@Faruko While I don't believe there is no racing esport game, I don't see why this would be a hindrance. So then MK would be the first competitive racing game, no problem.
Nobody needs voice chat, not even on a competitive level. I also don't get what good a "guild" system would be. What do you mean by options? Private matches are coming. And yeah, they should finance tournaments.
@Monado_III Why does the Gamepad's mic suck? I don't get it. It's not like those dedicated gaming headsets had better mics. Their mics are actually very cheap. And they surely don't have built-in Teamspeak. BTW, I think you don't understood how TS works. It's game-independent for a reason. Nothing is stopping you from playing Splatoon with TS right now.
@DarthNocturnal Lol what? It's more of the opposite! There are already two ways to dodge the blue shell (one was introduced with MK8), so if you don't have the necessary skill to dodge it, it's your fault.
MK rewards your skill just fine if you play it on higher levels. It has little to do with luck, you can see it easily when a racer with a very high level plays against others with lower levels and always finishes first.
Besides, every single game (not only video games, EVERY GAME) is partly influenced by luck, because luck is nothing other than random chance. And that's something you can't eradicate from anything.
I mean I always was against the blue shell and against having that many items in the game. I actually think the very first MK on SNES was the hardest and I would love to have a no-items mode. Actually that's already possible with online torunaments, so that would be another option for competitive MK.
@Kaze_Memaryu What do you mean by "explanation for advanced mechanics and playstyles"? Are you saying you want a foolproof guide to becoming a pro Smash/MK/Splatoon player so that any idiot can master the game? That would ruin everything! Everyone should find things out on his own (that's the bauty of it!) and if you're stuck, you can just look it up online. Back in the days Nintendo actually did sell those walktrough books for every game, where the machanics also were explained. But nowadays no one would buy it because you can get it for free on IGN etc. I think the game would do something wrong if it would explain the advanced mechanics to noobs. That's something you have to find out on your own.

@Kaze_Memaryu I find that kind of ruins the whole accomplishment of mastering a game, if it's all explained to you from the get go. The games provide you the basics and as a player it's your job to learn and master them. Through that, you become skilled and effectively learn the advanced portions. You learn through experience, without the game having to specifically guide you. That's kind of how games use to be (although some still are), where you learned everything from the basics to advanced and skillful techniques on your own or from other people, without the game's help.

That's how I see it, but some people don't like that form of learning or teaching in games. Although I can see some of the benefits if the advanced section was better elaborated on and explained.

@DarthNocturnal See, I didn't even know a star helps you also to avoid it. As I just found out through google, a bullet bill also helps.
Honestly, I never had a race where I didn't get at least one mushroom. Of course not when you're in first, but you can just hold on to the item (the same goes for the horn, but they could increase the probability of it showing up). Most of the time I have the impression that MK gives you too many mushrooms and less of the other items.

@Aromaiden: Yeah that's exactly what I meant. I hate how contemporary explain everything to you, to make games more accessible. back in the days it was different.

Even MK got more accessible with every iteration, I'd like a HD remake of the original, unforgiving and unfair MK.

@shani I think you are confusing a number of things. For starters, the fact that there are numerous mechanics that can be mastered to further your skill in a game does not make it competitive. You ask if I've played MK8 at level skill play, and I have. Have you? If so, then I'm sure you'd agree that the gameplay is the same regardless, and races are ultimately decided as a result of who got lucky.

Additionally, any competitive gamer knows that luck cannot be entirely removed from our experience (you can never eliminate just being at the right place at the right time). Rather, a game is considered competitive when players of higher skill consistently win. While Mario Kart 8 can indeed be played without items and coins, that is not even a standard game mode online, which leads me to believe that if Nintendo were to ever host a tournament for MK8, that the rules would not reflect that.

@shani because the GP mic does suck, and headset mics don't suck if you actually get a decent one. And there is a lot stopping me from using TS, the current lack of friend lobbies that actually put you on the same team. (which should be fixed by august) and I don't know what teamspeak being game independent has to do with my comment.

@greengecko007 Yeah and most of the time the more skilled players won. So if in your words, "a game is considered competitive when players of higher skill consistently win", then MK is definitely competitive.

Whether offline or online, the difference between less skilled and more skilled players always shows in MK. Even luck can't help with that, because a good player can basically dodge (almost) every attack without even using an item. And since items are a part of the game (despite of my occasional wish to have less or no items), one has to use them well-considered.
But a really skilled player will always land first if it's not a tight match.

@Monado_III Because your comment was: "Splatoon doesn't really need voice chat either as let's face it, the Wii U GP microphone sucks and is nothing compared to a headset with a built-in mic and teamspeak."
Because TS being game-independent means you can use it all the time, with every game, on every platform (not only PC).
And you said the built in mic is nothing compared to Teamspeak. So why don't you use teamspeak? If you don't see a reason to use Teamspeak then there is no reason for voicechat, it's that simple.

But Splatoon doesn't need voicechat anyway, because it's designed in a way that it works well without it (small maps, only four players and you got a map on the gamepad).

And what is a decent gaming headset to you? I have one worth 20-30€ and the sound quality (mic and playback) is just terrible compared to my Sennheiser BT headset. And I sure as won't buy a gaming headset for several hunderds of euros, because that's just a rip-off.

@shani We're talking about MK8 here, right? If so, then you are just completely wrong.

"Even luck can't help with that, because a good player can basically dodge (almost) every attack without even using an item".

This is so untrue it's hilarious. No amount of skill can save you from a red shell when you have nothing to protect yourself, let alone 3 coming at you back to back to back. No amount of skill can protect you from lightning, which has the potential to knock off 9 of your 10 coins at once. No amount of skill can protect you from being repeatedly pelted by fire flower. No amount of skill can protect you from being bitten by a Potted Piranha Plant. No amount of skill can protect you from a blue shell.

See that pattern here? There are many things that are just out of your control when playing with items. While there are a few situations in which you can avoid getting hit by these things, such as having a super horn as the blue shell comes for you, and having star power activated when everyone else gets struck by lightning, that is the result of... luck.

@DarthNocturnal In my experience it's not a good tactic to try to stay first for the whole race. That almost never works (except when you're playing against far weaker opponents). Of course I try to be at the front, but in between I try to pick up the item(s) that I deem important and then I keep them until I need them. All the other items I shoot right away. You don't really need items that much to get forward, just using every tiny boost opportunity and not making handling mistakes is usually suffice.
Those items you get when you are behind are mostly useless in my opinion. I hate the bullet bill and the lightning. Funnily enough, when I happen to fall behind (even way behind), I always (ok, it feels like always) get mushrooms.

@greengecko007 LOL seriously? You don't seem to know much about MK.
You can dodge a red shell by driving around an obstacle so that the shell hits the obstacle (the obstacle can also be another player). Ok, dodging three red shells without items would be really hard. But with a banana, green sheel or red shell, you could eliminate an additional shell.
You can dodge lightning by saving up a star for that exact situation. I hate lightnings and that's the item I'd like to have removed from the game the most.
You can dodge the fire flower by literally dodging! You just have to look behind (with 'c' on the nunchuk) and dodge them. The same goes for the Piranha Plant. I sometimes actually feel like no one's using the look-behind-feature, it's so powerful! At least half of the time I'm driving while looking behind.

And for the Blue Shell, there are the mushroom and the horn, which you can save up for that moment. And then there is also this (taken from mariowiki): "It can also be avoided by getting hit with another item [...] Spiny Shells also cannot travel further than a set distance: if they exceed the distance, then the Spiny Shell will disappear. This can easily be demonstrated by playing on N64 Yoshi Valley, where the Spiny Shell can easily miss the player if it takes the wrong path as the player and continue on its path, and it will not go another lap in attempt to hit the player again."

As you can see, it all comes down to skill (and experience). I'm not saying these methods work in 100% of the cases, but that's where luck/chance comes in.

@Kaze_Memaryu Any of those games arent more cryptic than say... Dota 2

Especially Dota 2 where a lot of things interact with another in 1 way but not with others because reasons, and this game is doing a 16m tournament next week.

And the tutorials cover like 10% of stuff you can do ingame.

@Kaze_Memaryu As far as I know no fighting or FPS games will give you hints on advanced techniques/mechanics, since its the player's job to uncover or even making them up via exploiting programming quirks (like move cancelling or rocketjumping)

It also takes away some of the fun

@shani so the only way to avoid lightning is by saving an item you only get in like 10th? even though you have no idea when the lightning will strike as someone could just look and see that someone has a star so they simply wait the 15 seconds for you star to be over and then bam. Dodging a fire flower, just look behind you! you'll definitely still be driving will lots of skill even though there is a banana right in front of you that you can't see because you're LOOKING BACKWARDS!

@shani i do get your point

to be fair, any game can be competitive, Halo, Gears, even CoD where forced into the scene (and Halo end up dying at some point, and its on oxygen, Gears its 100% dead and CoD does has a strong following)

Nintendo could end up forcing MK/Splatoon into the scene with tournaments and stuff, but i dont see them being build up for that, at least not this iteration of each game (not competitive level, im talking about eSport) games that want to be taken seriously (like really serious) should be build up from the ground with that in mind.

But neither of those games are even close to the likes of Dota 2, CS:GO, LoL, SC2 or even SF which are tailored made with eSports/competive in mind, most of the games mentioned before never get patched or balanced more than a few months into the game's life, but Dota 2, CS:GO, etc... get patched/balanced regularly for years.

@Monado_III If I remember correctly, Lightning also doesn't strike you when you're under water. And what's so hard about becoming 10th for a short while, then getting a star and keeping - NOT USING - it? I don't use an item that could serve me as a defense later. But as I said, I'd like to have Lightning removed. I also would like to have Bullet Bill and the blue shell to be removed, but if I had to choose one, it would be Lightning.

And I didn't say I constantly look behind. I rather tap 'c' rapidly, so that I can see what's behind AND what's in front of me. Of course it could happen that I look behind too long and then run into a banana, but that's really rare.

@shani You have the audacity to claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, yet in another comment you make you seem to think that Lightning can't strike players underwater?

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAABnUYoS_QNTeA

LOL You're full of crap and are completely clueless. Those scenarios you just listed about how it's possible to dodge attacks by other items are nonsensical. Saving starpower for when lightning strikes? Yeah, because you're warned when lightning strikes... s/ Red shell's player tracking in MK8 is phenomenal. It's one of the reasons they are so incredibly broken. They don't fly into walls, and don't get blocked by obstacles consistently. They also fly... Looking behind you to dodge piranha plants and fire flowers, even rapidly tapping it (LOL horrible idea) is not skill, it's luck, because you are not told when the player near you is going to use their piranha plant or fire flower. You mean to tell me you drive rapidly tapping the rear view button the whole race? Yeah right... That bit about blue shells? Get me an actual link. I guarentee you it's not true, because there are almost no invincibility frames in MK8 after being hit (Otherwise lightning wouldn't be so broken too). Either way, getting hit with another item and not getting hit with the blue shell still means you got hit, and therefore screwed over. How is that skillful play again by your wild imagination? I thought skilled players never got hit and never used items?

I'd appreciate it if they keep supporting competitive gaming more (like how they're doing with Smash Bros.). While the recent Nintendo Smash events I attended were not really the best experiences, they should definitely push to do more things with them. If they started doing their own tournaments, I'd be happy.

Splatoon would need some major patches (or hacks) to be competitive.

It would ABSOLUTELY require voice chat as one of the minimum requirements to be held on the professional competitive level. (Sorry Nintendo, there's no way around that.) It would require either a special USB LAN connection without needing to connect to Nintendo's servers, or Nintendo would need to bring one of their own servers to the venue to reduce latency. Everyone would need their own Gamepad (and therefore each of their own consoles, since there's not going to be any update to connect 4-5 Gamepads on one console), which would be a rather awkward situation for a venue like Evo. (Not to mention a magnet for technical difficulties and expenses for all of those capture cards and other streaming equipment...)

It's a nice idea, but unless Nintendo (or some really dedicated hackers) earnestly pushes hard for it, I don't think professional Splatoon is going to happen. I doubt that would happen, seeing as how Nintendo has consistently failed to understand how to bring their most obvious choice, Smash Bros, into the competitive limelight. (And even opposed it in the past)

@PlywoodStick Voice chat is needed, but not for Pros, they dont use internal voice chats, most teams use Skype/Mumble/Ventrillo, and every single FPS player has their own console/monitor, so i dont see how that would be a problem.

@Faruko Which would still be awkward, since they would need a PC for every Wii U player, or a server with virtualized partition sessions running for every player. Again, more possibilities for technical issues with an increasing number of devices being introduced, compared to having just PC's or native voice chat.

I see how helpful things like the competitive Smash scene can be helpful, but I think that group can come across as very overbearing at times personally. I've played the series like crazy since the first one, but because I don't play with crazy techniques and don't want to play Project M, I'm usually made very unwelcome when trying to talk to other Smash fans on sites like resist, and I get kind of tired of wanting to talk about the series but all I can find are post about the Melee stars like they're idols or something. I've never felt more disconnected from fellow fans on a series I love them I do with Smash (well, the Sonic fan base is not the best either on a side note).

@Monado_III You don't have to look backwards to be aware of incoming projectiles from behind in MK8. Just glance at the gamepad.

@shani I mean exactly what I said: the skill system. More specifically, the rolling system, diminishing returns for skill stacking, brand relevance. Never is any of this touched on by the game, yet Nintendo wants Splatoon to be competitive. Withholding crucial information like that is just awful.

@Aromaiden For things that you can find out yourself, it's okay not to mention them outright. But many Nintendo games simply use hidden mechanics without ever noting them in the slightest. For the advanced breeding/training mechanics in Pokémon to be fully understood, it took romhackers completely taking the games apart to finally get what is going on. And even then, achieving mastership required making it past vast amounts of RNG. It's bad design, in a sense.
And for Smash, the game itself is simply too limited to even give any player a chance at finding out everything. Stuff like priority, hitbox duration, damage peaks, and combos is impossible to master without a friend helping since the AI in Smash is so sloppy that it only teaches you the wrong things. In addition, the online always has lag input, making it also borderline impossible to learn or understand what exactly happens during a match with a really skilled player, unless you already know it.

@Faruko DOTA 2 doesn't actively hide anything you need to know, though. Everything important is available, and allows you to understand and master every character as you study the descriptions and numbers provided in-game. Or to be more precise: DOTA builds the game around expansive player skill, and by playing a character, understanding said character isn't terribly difficult, but it takes time to develop a playstyle that accentuates that characters' strengths. Splatoon just hides entire mechanics from you that you also cannot learn on your own, since the game fails to provide any kind of feedback on some stuff, especially on brands.

@AJ_Lethal That's absolutely not true. Every FPS is simply straightforward - you don't need to know more than the spray pattern of your weapon, the fire rate, and the bullet speed, all of which can be easily tested. Skills and perks are normally properly and precisely explained, and the HUD tells you all you need to know about your own status. There's no further depth beyond that. Splatoon, however, does hide the brand system and its effects entirely, no, it never even mentions brands outside of the super-small logos on weapons and clothes.
As for fighters: wrong again. Pretty much every fighter in existence provides options that teach you basic controls and commands, how defense techniques work, what options you have on land and in the air, and more intermediate stuff. And then it goes further, by giving you character challenges where you execute specific commands and combos that teach you how that specific character works, and how you can use this to your advantage. It also serves as a way to show you fighting-game-specific things like priorities, perfect guard, cancels, resets, and the like. Nothing is told you outright, but once again, nothing is hidden away, either. And if you wanna practice certain moves, you can always set up a command of your choice to train against. If you wanna know which combo works better, use them and then compare damage, meter gain, and difficulty. Easy.
Smash fails on all of that. The game never gives you a fair chance to train anything specific, since you're at the mercy of an terrible, unreliable, limited AI. This AI provides very little challenge to begin with, but also do things that are downright stupid, but unsuspecting players might adapt these bad moves. You cannot tell the AI to do a specific attack (not even in training mode), the AI cannot be controlled or given specific commands, so training your block timing against attacks that give you trouble is flat-out impossible without a friend acting as a punching bag, which is boring for him. Then there are inconsistencies like launch power that relies on enemy weight, damage percentage, and you still have RNG on top of that. A fighter with intentional RNG is badly designed, because it means you're not in control of your own abilities. That's not part of a good fighting game, it's unnecessary.
Also, how are noobs supposed to get better when all info the game itself provides him is conflicting? I'm sorry, but when getting good at a game requires the player to refer to an outside source, then the game fails at providing necessary info. And that should never happen. NEVER!

@PlywoodStick I agree with everything you said except voice chat. The Wii U mic is completely and utterly awful. Mumble is a much better option overall.

@Kaze_Memaryu you know several fighting games are first released on arcade first, then ported to consoles right? Arcade versions are pretty much "figure it out" affairs whose feedback from users end up as tutorial/challenge material for console versions; Smash has not such "luxury" in that regard.

@AJ_Lethal That makes absolutely no difference. Smash still fails to make numerous aspects of itself truly understandable thanks to RNG and arbitrary inconsistencies.

@PlywoodStick The capture card problem would be solved by adding spectator mode. And AFAIK, you wouldn't need to bring a whole PC just to do voicechat, a raspberry pi 2 with some cheap equipment (plus a nice headset) could do the job just fine with Mumble while being much more portable.

@Chaoz How is it awful? Last time I used it, it worked fine for me; just like any other mic I've used.

@Monado_III That's true about a proper spectator mode, but that's only if Nintendo expends the time, resources, and effort to dedicate a team towards implementing one specifically for Splatoon. (Which doesn't exist right now, and is doubtful to ever exist, unless Nintendo has suddenly become keen on following PC game market trends.)

Using Raspberry Pi's with a Linux distro (Windows is a bit too bloated to fit well with the Pi) is a good idea for cutting costs and space used... however, that would still require some extra finesse and effort to set up properly and have no issues whatsoever compared to just buying a few normal PC's with Windows. (In addition to making the effort towards encasing the Pi's properly; professional venues like Evo aren't going to keep loose circuit boards with protruding wires lying around, for people to risk damaging the equipment, or for the press to record the venue as cheaping out.)

@Chaoz The Wii U mic is awful, yes, but a USB headset with built in voice chat for the software would work just fine. A dedicated chat program elsewhere can also be used, though you need more equipment (and possibly more troubleshooting) for that. Wii U is not a large group competition friendly device, by PC standards.

@Kaze_Memaryu Im sure there are A LOT mechanics that needs to be found out. When Lotus Orb was added to the game, nobody knew how it would work out with X skills, or the new Aghanims upgrade, fox example... "Does WK aghanim works with Techies Suicide ?" Nobody knew untill someone tried. Or that some ulties give you invulnerability, like Manta Dodge, CK Ulti or Brewmaster Ulti... something thats NEVER been on the skill description. or even pulling or delaying the creep wave

Nothing its on the info of the skills/item

Dota 2 its really a cryptic game unless you play it A LOT, yet its played by millions every day and has one of the strongest competitive scenes after LoL (and a 16m tournament starting this week)

I think you everyone frowning on MK8's competitive potential are way off base. Slick driving and smooth drifting are enough to win 80% of the time. I use a Wii Wheel (don't laugh, if you can manage it there are several advantages over the analog stick--namely improved traction and greater range of control over drifts) and my impression is that most MK8 player simply aren't very good drivers.

I often run into players with great skill with regards to item use, but I can easily mitigate those items with pristine driving. That's because techniques like perfect line, edge riding, drift/boost rhythm, opportunistic shortcuts, positional awareness, etc. are tantamount to success in MK8.

Generally, I feel the typical player focuses too much on item considerations, which is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy as it often makes them vulnerable because their driving suffers ever so slightly. That's where the luck becomes necessary. If you focus on item use, then you need to get lucky both with acquiring the right item and using it at the right opportunity and if your driving is affected at all, then the chances are the items will result in a net negative.

In the alternative, if you focus solely on driving and treat items as a bonus, you will take more control of the outcome. Knowing the tracks, considering the best lines, memorizing the rhythm, etc. is all in your own control regardless of what the other racers are doing. This allows you to use every opportunity to shave time off your laps while using items conseratively with less negative impact.

At least, with this tactic I've rarely felt completely screwed by luck, and if I do, chances are I will take revenge in the next race anyway.

@Yorumi I get that, but I think that part of the issue is with competive gamers and their mentality. As a longtime sports fan, I embrace the randomness intrinsic to most sports. The unpredictability of a rolling/bouncing football, the varied weather/ground conditions on a golf course, the way a hockey puck is affected by ice conditions and how it bounces off the boards/goalposts, whether contact in a combat sport yields blood and it's affect on a fighter, whether the ref blows a whistle and what calls he or she makes, etc...

I don't see these as a competive flaws, instead I see this sort of unpredictability and randomness as another layer of consideration that that players must endure or capitalize on. These sort of nuances speak to the mentality of the competitors and often how you deal with these sometimes minor, sometimes major events will play a large role in determining the outcome.

Now I understand that games like MK8 and Smash seem artificially random, but I often wonder if that is partly an excuse to dismiss the elements that contribute to a loss. We are all likely to focus on the times we felt screwed over by an event, moreso than the the numerous choices we make that either lead to that event or happen after. Similar to blaming a loss on a had call by the refs at the end of a game, it's easy to blame the game's design in these situations, but that also dismisses much of the competition because ultimately there are other competitors making choices that lead to and away from those events as well.

Even if you can explain how "competitive" MK8 is, the reality its that theres 0 Racing game on the eSports scene, Trackmania (on ESWC) was the only one and it was dropped.

And i dont think MK8 would change that.

By the way, nobody cares about casual competition, im talking about playing with the big boys, for thousands of dollars. not for measly $100 for the winner, with companies behind X player and stuff.

@Yorumi I mean that was more or less where i was going, even if you can see how competitive a game can be, chances are that:

A) a few games dominate the scene (MOBA for example, its Dota 2, LoL and more or less Heroes of the Storm).

B) Theres no audience for that game/type.

Even some fighting games are childs play (SF4 might be the only comparable one, melee lags behind in terms of prize money) when compared to other bigger games, especially when it comes to "sponsors", there are 4 digits (and no, not 1000 dollars) contracts on SC2, Dota 2 and LoL...

@Yorumi I don't see it that way. It's like tugging on a guy's jersey as he goes up for a rebound or sticking your knee out as you go up to catch another guy in the groin. Or holding a guy as he rushes your quarterback. Or impeding a guy running the bases. The randomness is whether it works and whether the refs catch it, similar to how using an item can an item can either help or hurt you (or neither). Every sport has many little nuances like that (most are likely imperceptible to the viewer) that add up to the overall outcome.

The only real difference I see is that these events are more concentrated and perceptible with regards to item use.

@Faruko What you are saying mostly confirms my suspicions that many of the issues are related to the culture and mentality of the competitive scene. At least more so than with the games that are not supported.

Then again the same applies again to sports. Beyond which ones are successful professional leagues, the rules are often changed to primarily encourage entertainment and boost viewership, as opposed to competitive fairness.

@Faruko I don't know enough about DOTA to follow you, but overall, that's not a good thing, and actually means the game commits the same mistake I called Nintendo out on.
People might disagree, but I find such things to be bad design choices, since that means no amount of effort in the world will help a player master a game without referring to guides and/or outside communities. It's unnecessary to hide things that way, as it limits the overall experience.