We're in the midst of changing times for Nintendo, perhaps of a turbulent nature, and the sands are shifting in multiple ways. In the past couple of months we've seen Nintendo partner up with DeNA to move towards bringing its core IPs to smart devices, bringing a resultant boom in share prices, while Nintendo was essentially forced - with public perception in mind - to confirm that its next gaming hardware (codenamed 'NX') will be revealed in 2016. Club Nintendo is being shuttered to be replaced by a cross-platform (Wii U, 3DS, smart devices) membership programme implemented with DeNA's expertise, and all of this is on top of the usual Nintendo priorities - games, Wii U, 3DS (and New Nintendo 3DS), amiibo and more.
It's perhaps easy, with so much to think about, to look past the steady shift in some Nintendo policies that we've seen in recent weeks, in particular. In this case we're referring to DLC and microtransactions, which are not only becoming more relevant and vital to Nintendo's business - which is no surprise - but slightly more worrying.
Let's consider some key reveals from the most recent Nintendo Direct, kicking off with those for Super Smash Bros. on Wii U and 3DS. The high-profile news is that Mewtwo will arrive this month, free to those (from 15th April) that splashed out on both versions and registered them on Club Nintendo, and on sale to everyone else from 29th April. The pricing is interesting, as it's $3.99 / €3.99 / £3.59 for one version, or $4.99 / €4.99 / £4.59 for both. Considering the game itself is typically $60 and has 49 characters by default (including unlockables, while Mii Fighters add to the number), that's a fair chunk of change for one extra character that has previously featured in Super Smash Bros. Melee on GameCube. Also considering the fact that the process for buying both is to simply give you a download code for the second game, it would have been rather Nintendo-like to simply include both at the lower rate, but instead it's capitalising on demand. $1 isn't much extra, yes, but it's a reminder that Nintendo is not above prioritising extra cash over a modest gesture.
Ultimately, our issue is less with the pricing of Mewtwo, however, and more with the varied character outfit DLC. At less than a dollar each it may seem frivolous to grab some extra Mii outfits, as limited and restrictive as they are; you can buy a pack for one platform at $6.00 / €6.32 / £5.52, or pay $9.20 / €9.52 / £8.72 for both. To focus on value again, nearly a sixth - or fifth depending on your territory - of the recommended retail price of the game for eight superficial costumes.
Our question here is simple - if it's Capcom, Ubisoft or EA releasing outfits or entirely cosmetic extras in one of their major releases, is the reaction different to how we perceive Nintendo's offering? We regularly see these aforementioned companies slammed for cheap extras like this, yet Nintendo's jumping right in with the same basic concept. Let's also observe that goofy outfits are unlockable as free DLC in Capcom's Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, even if we are trolled with some ludicrously tough quests to access some of those goodies.
Then we have Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer, a particularly surprising reveal in the most recent Nintendo Direct. When the company discussed amiibo cards earlier in the year we envisioned them as a great way to supplement stock of existing figure ranges, an affordable option to access more amiibo features in games. In the rather vague reveal for Happy Home Designer, however, they emerged as a tool to unlock challenges in this 3DS game - we can only imagine, at this stage, that the game will be free-to-play, or perhaps can be bought with an initial set of cards. Scanning cards for a simplistic game of decorating houses and watching characters walk around is cute, though just how much of a game that really represents is interesting. We're big fans of Animal Crossing: New Leaf, but are still scratching our heads with this spin-off.
Nintendo has been considering free-to-play Animal Crossing for some time, but it'll be interesting to see how the balance of this card-driven game works out. Will one card randomise a character's demands each time or be fixed? How many cards are needed to really make the experience tick? On the initial tease it looks like a fairly underwhelming app, and is counter - in this writer's view - to comments made by Satoru Iwata way back in late 2012; he stated that the prospect of paying money for items to influence and change the core gameplay is "unwholesome". Even though we're not directly - it seems - buying 'items' with amiibo cards in this new app, the principle feels relevant. We need to see much more of Happy Home Designer, but on first impressions it seems setup to flog amiibo cards to us, and we're unsure of how the balancing will play out.
Microtransactions are the key current experiment on 3DS, overall, with Pokemon Shuffle leading the way recently. You can certainly beat the game without spending much - or anything at all - though it certainly deploys some monetisation that's downright sneaky; the worst value proposition it makes is to exchange a jewel for just five moves when you fail a level. Pokemon Rumble World is next up and seems to have a similar overall approach - we'll see how it pans out, and whether it comes down on the right side of providing fair and decent value in exchange for occasional payment. With these games the gamer is in control, of course, but the fact is that this model is designed to try and blend fun with manipulation, and the balance of fairness is difficult to find; Shuffle, aside from some iffy moments, arguably has a decent level of balance.
These are interesting times, though, with these upcoming releases bringing varying degrees of suspicion. On the flipside we've had examples where DLC value is excellent - Hyrule Warriors has some standalone costumes that were original pre-order bonuses, yes, but the main packs and season pass offer a lot of content. Mario Kart 8, meanwhile, is a shining light for DLC value - the season pass for the first two packs essentially adds another 50% of content in tracks, along with some characters and vehicles. Both of these titles enhance the experience with DLC, on top of an original product that serves up enough content to justify the retail pricing. Similar positive arguments - and counter-arguments - can be made about amiibo, which provide collectible toys and features across multiple games.
So we have some contradictions kicking in, which are perhaps inevitable as Nintendo experiments further. We'd suggest, however, that we should all consider how the most recent reveals of free-to-play and DLC - such as those Smash Bros. extras - would be viewed as produced by Nintendo's rivals. If there's an argument that costume packs and manipulative microtransactions are a blight on modern gaming, the big N's upcoming exploits should be judged on the same score. When it comes to Super Smash Bros., in particular, we think there's an argument that what we have is somewhat "unwholesome" profiteering, rather than an attempt to maintain interest and sales while expanding games in meaningful ways. Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros. DLC are very much opposite sides of the coin.
Ultimately, though, it's down to gamers to vote with their wallets. Perhaps DLC that seems questionable to some will be downloaded by hundreds of thousands or even millions of gamers, or there's the possibility that it'll flop and, as a result, prompt Nintendo into a re-think. The power is ultimately with the players, and it should be recognised that minor DLC in the form of costumes, along with microtransactions as a whole, wouldn't be so visible if they weren't a successful way of making money.
As we've said previously, DLC and products like amiibo are important for Nintendo in keeping fans happy, especially with a modest trickle of new releases on Wii U and 3DS. Quite whether all of the planned DLC, microtransactions and free-to-play ideas play into the 'Nintendo way' is up for debate.
Perhaps times, and the definition of "unwholesome", have changed.
Comments 244
"especially with a modest trickle of new releases on Wii U and 3DS" thats putting it mildly.
At this point it is clear that dlc is becoming more frequent because Nintendo aren't able to produce new games quick enough.
I don't mind, seriously, in nintendo want to offer DLC - as long as me not forking out on it does not affect the experience of playing a Nintendo game. I don't want to buy a half arsed experience which is why I refuse to buy many games on another format.
The prospect of, say, the Mii costumes based on other properties is superfluous. They add nothing for me but i don't mind other people getting them. I don't want to pay for a two hour campaign or one player only to have to pay additional costs to get the rest of the game. That, to me, is where morals and ethics are stretched thin. i don't believe that Nintendo will implement DLC like this.
Free to play, also, is fine with me. I'll just avoid games of that nature. It's fine if people want to pay to play as much as they want of Pokemon Shuffle but I'm not interested. If this reflected the future of Nintendo, I'd be out. however again I'm skeptical that that would represent the future for them. They will continue to adapt but remain with the same model (a full game on a disc is the status quo for me and that's going to be their bread and butter for some time to come IMO)
The comparison of 49 characters for $60 versus 1 for $3.99 is a weak one, and disappointing to see in this article. It ignores (at least) a couple of key facts. First, the $60 for the whole game is a significantly higher investment than $3.99, so the per-character rate should be expected to be better. And second, by necessity fewer people will buy any DLC than bought the game originally, meaning Nintendo's return on the DLC will come at a lower rate.
I love DLC when it provides meaningful content like Mario Kart 8, Hyrule Warriors and New Super Luigi U. Adding new fighters to Super Smash Bros. is complex as it requires full balancing with existing characters so I "agree" with the price and will buy them. Also, there's probably a much smaller team working on the game now. But those costumes are pointless and I agree with the above posters - vote with your cash and don't grab them!
While I would never complain about the DLC being cheaper, I think Nintendo's OK with what they're offering on SSB. For me the key is, is the DLC something that was originally planned or could have been implemented within a reasonable time frame? With the extra courses in MK8, obviously the game could not have gotten here close to when it did if all the DLC were included. With SSB, I have a feeling the costumes were an after-thought not planned for the original game. For Mewtwo, obviously them holding out was a marketing tool to get people to buy both WiiU and 3DS. So I'm OK with these. Not sure to make with the others though.
What makes DLC easier to swallow for me is GOTY editions. I don't need games straight away. I'm happy to wait a couple of years, not just for a re-release with all DLC included, but to wait for that edition to drop in price. I've picked up so many complete 360 games for £10 over the years. I don't think Nintendo will be doing these editions however, as we'd have probably already seen it by now with games like Fire Emblem.
I'll be honest, the pricing felt a bit much to me only because I compare it to what you get from Mario Kart 8's DLC packs where you effectively get half of a game for a quarter of the price. It's a different story here in the case of Smash 4 but it's not like I need to buy everything anyway.
I'll definitely be buying Characters and the Smash T-Shirts for Miis but the rest I'll probably ignore for now.
The beauty of the MK8 DLC is that 1) the game packs roughly the same content as every previous release in the series and 2) they're doing something a bit different. Link in Mario Kart? That's pretty awesome. If it was just a few extra courses tacked on it seems like it would have been a cash grab. You don't NEED the extra stuff to experience the game as a whole. But adding the extra courses and characters was a good idea. And I bought the first pack, plan on buying the second. It's a nice extra and priced reasonably.
I'll just stick with characters, the outfit pricing is overdoing it. From what I can tell, people hate Mii fighters anyway.
I have no problem with DLC for costume packs, I won't buy them and can still enjoy the game. Mario Kart DLC is awesome - because it's clearly an ADDITION to what I've already paid for. But free to play games with micro transactions to me are slightly more sinister... And given how many great games there are around that I don't have time to play, I'll avoid these!
So, Evolve had about €130 worth of DLC on day one, and fans (EDIT: i.e, people who gave the game good reviews on Metacritic) were defending it with "What are you complaining about? It's only cosmetic".
Nintendo announces one pack at €9.52 several months after release and already they're accused of profiteering? Neat.
DLC is mainly appalling when it's cut from a finished game to be sold seperately - hardly the case when they ask fans who they want as future additions.
And Microtransactions are bad when forced onto full-priced games. As long as they use them in separate games, I can live with them (by ignoring them).
So far, Nintendo hasn't released a Pikmin game where every chore takes several hours to complete unless you use microtransactions to speed things up (like Dungeon Keeper).
Or a Mario Kart in which you use up fuel you need to pay for with real money (like Need for Speed: No Limits),
Or a Metroid game where you can purchase ammunition via microtransactions (like Dead Space 3).
So even when you judge Nintendo "on the same score" as its rivals, it still fares pretty well.
No micro transactions from this guy. Come up with a new idea Nintendo.
Money,money,money......monneey (sings)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXE_n2q08Yw
Seriously though, as long as we continue to get full products, I won't care what the DLC is, no Evolve mess please.
Of all the companies that release DLC Nintendo is hardly the one I'd single out as problematic. None of the DLC they've released so far is what I'd consider essential and its not like any of their games gets released incomplete.
Mario Kart 8 and Hyrule Warriors has some of the best DLC value that I've seen. That's good stuff right there and fully support it. Everything else mentioned on here, meh.
the costume DLC is what 79p? thats like £3 cheaper than say DOA's. dynasty Warriors 8 empires costume dlcs is £3.19 for two costumes
I'm happy with the prices, yes if you're compare the price of most (say about 90%) Paid-DLC compared to its parent game it doesn't add up but 79p for the one costume i want is perfect
I'm interested to see how things go over this year and next year, since Nintendo seems intent on locking on-disk content behind an Amiibo paywall like on-disk DLC. The only people I have ever seen defend this action are people doing it for a "because Nintendo" proposition that always boils down into a murky territory of "what you did and did not pay for." If I buy a product, I paid for everything within said product.
To lock out content on that product--again, that I already bought--treads into shady, greedy territory.
Nintendo needs to justify Amiibos, but that doesn't really happen with an unlockable costume--as the same time, locking away too much content turns into an issue of having to, essentially, pay for your content twice to access it when it becomes DLC-on-Disk.
Amiibos can be justified with a large-scale, and free to download Nintendo Land-style game where purchased Amiibos unlock events and mini-games. Paying for the game and then paying for the Amiibo to unlock it is a rip-off for consumers.
They can also be justified because each Amiibo has it's own coded identity, and in this regard, linking the Amiibo should just access the eShop to download additional DLC that isn't already in the game.
Currently, as a consumer, I'm not comfortable with the way things are going. I see an increasing amount of content locked behind an Amiibo paywall, while Amiibos are still impossible to find due to perceived scarcity and Nintendo fans and resellers greedily buying more than one of each. If this keeps up, the Amiibo fad will burn out hard about the time Nintendo finally understands how to produce adequate numbers of them, thus turning into the next discount bin fodder and toy bin clutter. I would not be surprised at all if the Amiibo fad was considered dead by this time next year, while Skylanders and Disney Infinity continue.
Nintendo has always been a fan of money--more so than most game companies (note how much longer they maintain full-price MSRPs at retail), but many of these experiments do not fill me with confidence. Selling old Smash Bros fighters for $5 a piece is pretty unnerving, and I'm betting that when all is said and done, most of the DLC characters will be those "missing" from Melee or Brawl.
Makes no difference to me who does it. Nintendo doesn't get a free pass.
@Wesbert
Where have you been? I never saw anyone defend Evolve's DLC, and I regularly read over at GameInformer. Everybody was pissed about it. Everybody.
@Sanya
I like the Mii Fighters. I had Jason Voorhees for one of them.
Pretty soon, I can use Jason Voorhees in a different fighting game!
@Wesbert @Quorthon Must have been a small minority of fans defending Evolve
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/evolve
As of yet, almost every Nintendo game did something wrong about their DLC distribution.
Animal Crossing has Nintendo Zone-exclusive items, some of which are region-exclusive on top of that. Mario Kart 8 offers characters without giving the choice any gameplay value, and skimped on the tracks. Hyrule Warriors shamelessly sold us on-disc DLC (who's responsible for that, Nintendo or Koei). Fire Emblem: Awakening had massive amounts of DLC that were vastly overpriced for their contents. The only game that did it well so far is Pikmin 3, but that's it.
The future doesn't look much brighter, either. Smash will have completely overpriced costumes, a scrappy character that was lazily ported (but they still took their merry time), and a second character nobody asked for. Xenoblade X will have Day One DLC, one of the most loathsome practices in the entire business, making it look like they cut content to profit some more (though not remotely close to what Destiny does). Fire Emblem If seems to cut the entire game in half, in a game series that never had connectivity or multiplayer as a main draw, making this a very questionable decision, at best (though we don't know enough yet to be clear about it).
And the amiibo stunt they start pulling off with Splatoon comes off as a very forced way to implement the functionality. Why not allow players to store an equipment setup they can bring to multiplayer sessions? And then have them earn some extra credit when they use it on someone else's WiiU and play well? Would be good enough, but not lock out actual content. Maybe even add some kind of Challenge Mode and store records on the amiibo. Easy deal, nothing too impacting.
As for microtransactions: I still think it's a bad practice, but at least Nintendo seems rather lenient on their implementations, though that doesn't make it good.
Did I miss something? The point is: Nintendo may not be as bad as most AAA companies and indie-hipster-match-three mobile developers, but they also don't really seem to understand how to do DLC and microtransactions right. Better price-value balancing, less superficial junk, and more original stuff - instead of cashing in on fangasm and save-route additions.
Since Nintendo has been handling DLC the correct way, i have no problem
I don't mind the DLC characters and costumes. I do mind the Amiibo stuff that is starting to remind me of how they would lock things behind linking the GBA to the Gamecube. And unlike then, I cannot just buy an action replay to unlock it anyways.
I'm generally fine with DLC. If I love a game, I'm happy to get MORE of the game. Even day-one DLC doesn't bother me too much if I assume that it was only able to be produced under the expectations that the game would earn more money than the base price alone. If they cut out game content at the last minute simply to make extra money, however, that is irritating.
Free-to-play and microtransactions do concern me somewhat. The free-to-play model is one that, (often, not always) instead of adding game content for extra enjoyability, forces players to pay money to enjoy the base game. Which, in itself makes sense, but tends to disrupt gameplay (pay 1 dollar to unlock the next stage!) Or, the game starts out fun but becomes increasingly less so, giving players the option to pay real money to have the game be as fun as it was initially. Or, worse, takes advantage of the addictive nature of the game which, after multiple microtransactions, eventually becomes more expensive than a regular game and forces you to keep paying to keep playing. In my opinion, this encourages bad game design.
I'm okay with cosmetic microtransactions. To me though I find them unappealing - it's more fun to unlock an outfit in-game than it is to just buy it. I would personally rather pay a flat base price for a game (even if it was more expensive) for the experience of actually playing the game, instead of just buying stuff to put in my game.
Anyways, will be interested to see how Nintendo handles this despite my previous judgments about free-to-play and microtransactions. Maybe they can make it ethical and fun?
Allow me to state the obvious: Nintendo makes games for money.
In that way, it's not better or worse than any other company in this industry. Because, once stripped of any kind of romanticism or aesthetic ideal there might be, it's pretty clear that video games are a bussiness. Gaming has reached the place it is in today because it moves enormous quantities of CASH. If there wasn't any profit to be done, the proliferation, popularisation, and influence in culture that the medium has achieved wouldn't be so quick nor significant.
Contemporary video games have high production values. They are no longer made by a few people in a few months. Therefore, it is understandable that companies want a way of making sure they get profit. Is that greed? Exploitation? It might be, but the audience wouldn't get the games of the size they are getting today if there wasn't a proportionate revenue.
I might be playing "devil's advocate" here, but if you don't want this kind of stuff, you may as well be ready to accept smaller games.
@Quorthon Read some of the user reviews on Metacritic (not the lower ones). Quite a lot defended them. And TotalBiscuit did in his video about the topic.
@Kaze_Memaryu What about Fire Embelm Awakening? New Super Mario Bros 2?
The thing is that DLC is completely optional and people seem to think that its mandatory for a game to sell more copies. But its not really needed. I mean besides Hyrule Warriors, no Zelda game has any DLC in them and even then, its completely optional. Dream Team didn't have it and it was a great game so was Kid Icarus Uprising or Star Fox 3D. Its so rare for Nintendo games to have DLC and I think Nintendo is slowly trying to experiment that.
That being said.....I'm worried about Fire Emblem If.......I mean, for someone like me who can't buy digital games that easily or just feels that retail is the best option, I'm being paranoid about how Nintendo is making a sudden change in the new game. If this game fails, no more Fire Emblem.....and that's Intelligent Systems strongest brand.
Considering the amount of DLC and other paid content that exists in similar markets (Google Play, iTunes, PSN, XBox, etc), and is a huge source of profit for the creators, Nintendo's making a "smart move" by these simple DLC experiments. Chances are, they'll get hooked like everyone else does and it'll end up being widely accepted by their fanbase as the new normal.
It's already been done, they're really not breaking into new ground here. Nintendo's just the last bastion of sanity in this crazy world, in this regard, and they're finally succumbing.
My concerns are solely with free to play, microtransactions and locking content behind hard to find amiibo. All 3 of those things are horrific practices that should just die.
I do not spend money on microtransactions/costumes and rarely on DLC, if its not as beefy and substantial as Mario Kart 8s. The prices I saw at the last direct especially for Mewto kinda shocked me. Just compare it With MK8s DLC !!! No way I will ever spend money on that.
Until now I bought Ninendo products rather than a Sony machine because I didnt have to deal with this kinda crap.
Right now there isnt that much to look forward to for my 3DS and Wii U in short and mid term. And the biggest news of recent do not cater to me at all.
Instead of teasing a new console they simply should have annouced some more games to show dedication.
I've been seen saying this ever since last year, Nintendo are no different to the likes of EA, Ubisoft, WB etc etc. In some cases, Nintendo are worst, in others third parties are worse. But only one party gets a free pass.
@Quorthon
As you know, I disagree with almost everything you said in that post about "on-disk" buying-it-twice-even-though-you-didn't-expect-to-get-the-dlc-in-the-initial -purchase-it's-still-on-there-so-it-counts or something argument.
I do agree with the Amiibo scarcity problem however. If they aren't going to be available or restocked, they need alternatives to unlock content, IMO. Too frustrating for customers (including me) otherwise.
Here's you:
"Nintendo has always been a fan of money--more so than most game companies "
And you back this up with maintaining MSRPs? Do you honestly think other companies wouldn't keep them high if they thought it would make them more money? Are they giving it away at lower prices out of the goodness of their hearts?
Nintendo is in a different situation than most game companies and they are a fan of holding on to their profits. Other console makers like Sony and Microsoft have traditionally relied on their wide array of revenue streams to prop them up and other software publishers like EA and Activision eat up other publishers like they are playing monopoly. Mobile game companies compete on monetization schemes more than anything. They are fans of money in their own way as it's all about pushing it around. It feels like developers are all fighting for scraps.
Nintendo, for better or worse, makes their own hardware, software, and covers publishing duties. They sell games at MSRP values because they can and they keep a hefty amount of cash and go for high profit margins because they have to in a volatile market with little to fall back on.
Now, that could make Nintendo more susceptible to abusing these other monetization schemes. Maybe more so than others just because they don't have much of a plan B. Given all of that, it's commendable that Nintendo has tried to hold back against some of the trends it saw as damaging to the game industry like the rush to the bottom pricing in the mobile space. I think having its feet held to the fire is causing it to experiment and I'm not so sure that it will get all the right lessons from it. It's sad to see them throw in the towel on the free to play thing. Not necessarily bad for most consumers in the short term, really, but it can cause people to complain about reasonably priced games out of ignorance.
@Spectator The Metacritic site shows 109 positive reviews (as opposed to 129 negative ones). A lot of those adopt the "It's just cosmetic/don't like it, don't buy it" attitude. It was those I was referring to when I mentioned "fans" (I don't consider people who rate a game with 0 to be "fans"). I am sorry and apologize for my somewhat ambiguous choice of words.
@Webert
No prob, I was just curious where you were getting your information.
Frankly the Hyrule/MK8/Smash DLC plus NSLU has plugged big holes in Nintendo's release window and has made these games last a lot longer.
Personally I think the Animal Crossing card game is an attempt to push NFC usage in Japan. So far they haven't been all that bothered about amiibo, and I'm guessing this is for a young and/or female audience that liked the world of animal crossing. It's not a traditional console or handheld business model, but then Japan isn't buying that model much any more. I wonder if it were a Pokemon style card game anyone would be questioning ethics?
My thinking, as far as the animal crossing card game goes, is that when they DO release a Wii U Animal Crossing game, perhaps you can scan in those cards to customize your villagers houses.
The difference between Nintendo and those other companies is that the games they release do not rely on DLC. $4.99 for Mewtwo is more than fair considering how complex Smash characters are.
Now I do not want to sugar coat Nintendo because while they been doing a good job with DLC what they are doing with Fire Emblem makes me question them a little bit. It is evident that both games have the same content locked and the proof of this is the digital version of the game which makes you choose a path and also the collector's edition which has everything on physical format.
I hope we get the CE here in America
I for one love all the DLC we're getting. I don't really play Pokémon so I've yet to experience the micro transactions.
A friggin' Candy Crush ad popped up in the middle of this article while I was reading it.
@aaronsullivan
Uhhh, I've already written so much to you today. Are we lovers having an argument? We should let other people talk for a while.
We won't agree with the DLC on Disk/Amiibo Paywall thing unless my concern turns out to be true--that Nintendo increasingly locks out more content with each purchase. Then we'll agree... with me (and insert a wink there, pause for applause, and moving on...)
My point on MSRP's is from a consumer standpoint. I think Nintendo keeps the prices high to artificially give the impression of "value," while Sony, MS, and Valve drop prices over time as the games become profitable and they merely want to reach newer audiences and late adopters. I don't have evidence to this, it's more based on an observation of Nintendo's history compared to their competitors. Because, frankly, games like God of War and Halo also hold their value for long periods of time, but they eventually drop the prices, which is fair to late adopters. Do they hold value longer than, say, Zelda? I don't know. That's a discussion for another time with too many variables and all centered on taste. I have never played a game for years, so I'm on the outside to those guys still playing Halo 3 online or going back to play Ocarina of Time a 40th time.
The reverse of this is that some people truly believe the games hold their value, and Nintendo likes raking in the extra money from selling at full price for far longer. I do find it ironic that a company that touted "different pricing structures" so rigidly maintains the highest possible prices for the longest possible time.
As I noted before--Metroid: Other M is still at my local Target--new--for $49.99.
In my dev team, there are only two of us who are, what I could say, are "big Nintendo fans." The other guy has every Amiibo. I only have 6 that I really wanted, and one I really wanted that I'll probably never have (Little Mac). Last week, he sat up all night clicking refresh on Best Buy's site trying to preorder these things. I gave up and said Amiibos are not worth this hassle. Because they aren't to me, not anymore. The supplies, the hassle, the resellers, the preorder madness, the limited use in some games, the questionable use in others. I'm done. No thanks. I have Transformers to buy anyway. A brand new Menosor is just around the corner.
DLC is simply part of today's gaming, and Nintendo seems to finally be adapting to the times instead of stubbornly clinging to the past (hopefully they continue to adapt in other ways). If I enjoy the game and want more, I buy the DLC. If not, I don't. The one thing finally pushing me from Nintendo is Amiibo. I'm fine with how it's implemented, provided I can obtain the Amiibo I want... But I can't unless I devote countless hours to hunting them or pay scalpers. Locking content behind NFC and then making the items impossible to find is not a good practice. I've forgiven Nintendo for every hiccup and stood by them to this day. But unless they somehow make the locked content for Codename Steam, Kirby, and Splatoon available for me to purchase, they're already losing me. I can't let that go.
Some of the DLC is very overpriced like costumes and 3DS themes. Don't support it.
MK8 course packs on the other hand...
"Our question here is simple - if it's Capcom, Ubisoft or EA releasing outfits or entirely cosmetic extras in one of their major releases, is the reaction different to how we perceive Nintendo's offering? We regularly see these aforementioned companies slammed for cheap extras like this, yet Nintendo's jumping right in with the same basic concept."
As a rule I avoid micro transactions, however this is the type I'm most comfortable with, essentially the TF2 way of doing it where the game is the same experience for everyone, but you can optionally purchase something that doesn't actually give any kind of advantage. It's the "wait 1 hour or pay real $$$" stuff and the pay-to-win model that I can't stand.
When it first started, including the idiocy of the Mercedes DLC, I said it was a slippery slope and that I though we were going to be surprised at just how aggressively Nintendo would pursue micro transactions. Everyone said I was wrong, a 'whiner' or some troll from the land of XBONE or PS4. And here we are… and the mobile situation hasn't even fleshed out yet.
Yup. This WAS one of the reasons I had some respect for Nintendo as a business. Not so much any more. The only positive thing I can say is, they got the pricing/value right for Mario Kart DLC. Who knows going forward, though.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, so might as well do to make some people happy. For the most part, I'm ok with dlc in general. It's an optional feature that only add to the replay value if you want it to. it's more of a luxury than a necessity like 3ds home themes or the NSMB2 dlc.
I don't mind micro-transactions as long as it doesn't make it the only way to get something due to the game giving the players little to no secondary currency to do so. Pokemon Shuffle have been pretty good with the coins and jewel distribution, so that a good start.
I always find the amiibo craze interesting just for the fact there is so many sides and reasons for the people who are or aren't interested in them. even the reactions from the wave 4 pre-orders is interesting and it not even close to the end of March yet for the release, much less April. The twist is, it not even mandatory to the game(s) like Skylander is but it gets more attention.
I didn't mind the Fire emblem awakening dlc's because they were completely optional, and it was one of nintendo's first attempts with dlc. Now it seems to be everywhere. I'm worried nintendo may seem to see that they can get away with more and more. I just hope Nintendo doesn't go overboard, and things are kept in check
I've been pretty happy about the way Nintendo has handled DLC thus far. MK 8 has been good as was Mario Golf World Tour.
Hopefully Nintendo doesn't go the path of others and lock major parts of games behind a pay wall. DLC is so divisive that it's almost a no-win situation as far as consumers being happy.
The new fighters in Smash Bros. is fine by me considering how much the game gives you initially and the testing and balancing work that goes into adding each new character. It'll only be an issue if the next Smash in 4-5 years cuts down the initial roster like Marvel Vs Crapcom did between the 2nd and 3rd games in favor of adding the characters back in through DLC.
The Mii Fighter costumes is a bit more dubious when you consider the Mii costumes are added through Amiibo's on Mario Kart 8. Shouldn't this be the same case with Smash where the costumes are added through buying Amiibo? Personally, that was a big misstep and I hope that doesn't become a habit. While I understand the licensing cost issue for the Mega Man outfits (since Crapcom currently owns him), The figures based on Nintendo property's should be given for free with an Amiibo or if a person doesn't buy an Amiibo, they can purchase the outfits. Just a thought
...I rest my case.
@ShadJV All in my opinion, but who do you think they are? They're NINTENDO, not Microsoft, not Sony, they're not SUPPOSED to change with the "times". Don't you see something in common with all their systems? They're still practically NESs, but with new games, new hardware, new graphics, and new innovation that the world has never seen before. Being CONSTANTLY connected to the internet, DLC, and microtransactions, are the things that Nintendo has not come up with and instead follow OTHER examples. DLC and microtransactions are not new things, they're NOT innovation. I know this is just a ramble, but I have a point. And I know, eventually, that this won't end well in the long run. Watch.
I think Nintendo's pricing is fair. Nintendo uses DLC to extend the life of its games and fill in release gaps.
Man, Nintendo can't seem to catch a break. Like DiscoGentleman said, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. If you want the DLC, then buy it. If you think it's not worth it, then don't. Simple as that.
@Quorthon I am worried as you are about the Amiibo thing. It is one thing when the game wasn't designed for Amiibo and then added in with a patch. It is entirely another thing when the Amiibo are built into the game from ground up. It is too much a slippery slope and the supply issues are too many, especially the stupid exclusive retailer mess.
I also agree that Nintendo's pricing is just stupid at times. Not only is Other M still $49.99, so is most of the final Nintendo made Wii games on the shelf (including Smash Bros Brawl). Meanwhile everything else has hit the $4.99-19.99 bargain range. That isn't holding "value" that is holding late adopters hostage.
Both of these practices will eventually come back to bite them. I really wish Nintendo had stuck to their N64 idea of reusing assets to make a "gaiden" version of a franchise, like Majora's Mask was. I have less of a problem with games like Majora's Mask or New Super Luigi U than some of the other DLC messes. I can respect something like the Red Dead Redemption: Undead Nightmare DLC or Dragon Age: Awakening DLC any day over something like Horse Armor.
I don't want to sound like a fanboy or anything but I am very pleased that Nintendo is doing f2p games and jumping in on the DLC bandwagon now. I'm not sure what took them so long but now they can make even more money and use that money to fund their future games and consoles.
The gaming industry has gone to %@#*%(. Nintendo was just the last one to sell out.
@Artwark It's not about what we miss or not, it's about shady practices. DLC is being bought under the impression of acquiring a fair product, but in many cases, it's not. Cue Nintendo suddenly abandoning their standards and charging for content that they shouldn't charge (as much as they do) for, while waving in front of our faces with it.
Besides, I'm also pointing at the people accepting rip-offs like Day One/On-Disc DLC and actually paying for it. They basically tell companies that they're okay with buying content they already paid for, and that nobody cares about laziness as long as both sides can just deny it to justify the practice.
@Darknyht
Hey, if Nintendo knocked some of the price off the games that is offset by the Amiibo, I wouldn't have much room to complain. Or, say, if you bought the a Luigi Amiibo and that Amiibo downloaded Super Luigi U, that'd be perfect.
I don't see them doing that, though.
@TreonsRealm
An argument could be made that Nintendo did exactly what you're saying--cut down the roster to sell them later. So far, which characters are we getting? Two that were previously in the games already. Characters who were cut, not exactly new characters.
I have ZERO problem paying $5 for a Smash Bros character. The game is so tight and the characters are so important that it's well worth it. On the opposite side of that, The Playstation All-Stars game released a huge amount of characters at a fraction of that cost but they all sucked and were boring (Just like the game!).
Just goes to show... you get what you pay for.
@GrunkFace
I have recently grown to really enjoy the Playstation brand, particularly due to the Vita and PS4, but I have to agree, All-Stars: Battle Royale is just weak. It's hard to put a finger on it, but when you play it, there's something about it that makes the entire experience feel a little flat and simultaneously unbalanced. It's a solid game, but something about it is lacking. It's really hard to put a finger on it.
If it's something I want, then it's worth it to me. If it's not something I want or is a critical part of the game locked away, then it's a problem. I'll buy costumes for characters I really like. I'll buy additional levels for a game if I want more new fun from that game.
MK8, Hyrule Warriors, a wee bit of Fire Emblem: Awakening, SFxTekken, Samurai Warriors 4... they all handle DLC differently, at very different prices and values. To me they've been worth it.
This is something we couldn't really have before, just getting expansion packs. Thinking fondly of X-Wing and Tie Fighter for that. Now a game can continue to get development, have those extras distributed, and still give new experiences a year or more later. I mean, if it's a game you like and you consider the price reasonable, there can't be anything wrong with that.
I'm fine paying some money to play Mewtwo.
@ Quorthon
Mewtwo was missing/cut from Brawl as well so that's a tough one due to him not being intended for inclusion but Fans pushed hard enough to get him in post launch and Nintendo even opted to give fans a way to get him for free so I can forgive that one. As for Lucas, unless he has a completely new move set and feel, he should only be a free alternate costume for Ness and I found it interesting that Nintendo didn't give any real pricing for him yet which leads me to think things MAY change for him.
My original point was that the total number of characters on each game has consistently increased for each Smash game where Marvel vs Crapcom did that for the first 2 games and then cut the roster down dramatically between 2 and 3 for the sole purpose of charging for DLC. I don't mind adding and removing (or even splitting) characters as long as the total package is large and complete at launch which is certainly the case for the latest Smash (something that can't be said for other major fighting games).
@Yorumi I could see that with something like, for example, MK8. If an edition came out with only 4 cups and the rest were pay-to-play, then yeah, it's a problem. I suppose the games I play don't have a great deal of DLC that I notice, so I haven't been able to look at games and see the underlying design philosophy.
I think this is an extension of free-to-play. They'll get money from whales, but most won't buy it. Take from that what you will ethically.
People are complaining about a 5 dollar character? I thought the pricing was pretty good. Smash bros. characters are fairly complex. I could buy a sub, or a character for smash bros. It really isn't that much money.
@Yorumi Yep, I'd have a big problem with that based on what you're posing. I only know where I stand DLC-wise, and I'm curious where the market will find itself. If that's where it goes, yeah, we're in trouble.
Or we'll just wind up never actually owning games and just paying for subscription access with micro transactions. I think that's when I'd be a retro-only gamer.
@Dolphin64 hah. And how has that worked for Nintendo? Look at the GameCube, the second half of the Wii's life, the Wii U. Apart from the lucky non-gamer audience that the Wii struck gold with (who mostly only got Wii Sports and never actually purchased a game), Nintendo has been in a downward spiral for awhile now. If they don't adapt to the times, it's a matter of time until they're bankrupt. Why do you think they're suddenly starting to change? They realized the danger they're in. I'm not one to scream "NINTENDO IS DOOMED" because I think far from that. Nintendo is a resilient company - stubborn, but resilient. I believe in them and that, when they need to, they can and will adapt. The industry has been affected enough by the poor economy and piracy, we see plenty of companies downsizing, and innovation isn't worth as much as it used to be. Sad but true, in order survive Nintendo is adapting. If your rather see the company close its doors than change, that's on you, but I'm glad to see they're doing what they have to do to make a profit. I repeat, a large enough audience does NOT want innovation anymore, just be glad they aren't going full blown free to play iOS style games. It's a rough world, but if Nintendo staying the same was making enough money, they'd surely stay the same. It's taken a lot of poor profits to drive them to this.
@Kaze_Memaryu - "Fire Emblem If seems to cut the entire game in half," -
Didn't Nintendo create this idea about 15 years ago w/ Pokemon Red and Green? And haven't they done it every game since? Aren't they 2 copies of the same game except for 1 Pokemon?
I've always thought that was a bit underhanded, but nobody has ever mentioned it in 15 years.
Ultimately it will come down to what the market is willing to put up with. Based on other popular franchises, people will put up with a lot of crap.
@Quorthon If they are smart they will do like they have done with Mario Party 10. The game with Amiibo is $59.99, but the game without the Amiibo is $49.99. Buy the Amiibo with the game and you save $3 on it, or you can skip the Amiibo and save $10. Like you said, it makes it a little more agreeable but it doesn't solve the supply issue of the non-boxed amiibo.
@Darknyht
Yeah, and that will also off-set the unease some of us will (or do, as in my case) have about on-disk content being locked behind an "Amiibo Paywall."
@Yorumi
Awwww you found me out!
I got All-Stars Battle Royale as part of PSN+ and haven't spent much time with it, so I really don't have a lot of data to use as an analysis. I remember thinking Kratos was overpowered and that the Big Daddy simply didn't feel right in a fighting game.
Also, there is a notable lack of Mr. Game & Watch in the game.
Okay, here's my thoughts on the matter: They've done dlc good in certain parts (like letting you pre-order the Mario Kart 8 dlc and getting new Yoshi and Shyguy colors as a bonus, or being able to buy multiple dlc in a single pack for less than it would've cost to buy them all separately), but there were also some bad scenarios, such as Fire Emblem If. Also, I'not too sure how to feel about Ninendo games that involve micro-transactions, but then again I just flat out hate the idea of micro-transactions.
@TreonsRealm
Here's another one of those weird things I can't really explain: I am terrible with Ness. I suck using him in any Smash game. But for some reason, I was great with Lucas, and he became a favorite character for me in Brawl. So there's a subtle difference between the two that made Lucas a better fighter in my hands. So, in that regard, Lucas was slightly different, but I think a good argument could be made that, like Olimar and... other guy... Aleph? Man, why not the girl? Anyway, like Olimar and that guy, Ness and Lucas could've just been "palette swaps."
@aaronsullivan Ah, someone who gets it.
U can blame the gaming companies alk u like, but if people didnt start paying for costumes and digital items years ago, gaming would be fine but noooo u had to buy the costume, u had to get that exclusive weapon, that everyone else bought and mskes it not so exclusive, u bought the jewels, the dlc that was already on disc, but nope u blame the companies for doing whatwas previously minority into a growing majority.
were all guilty of it hapoening cause we said yes I want mitrans and dlc, and nfc toys.
I think if it's something that actually adds, like an expansion pack, it's great. MK8 is the best example of this in recent times. I would have a problem with it if it ruined online play such as giving out unbalanced kart parts.
What I really cannot stand are microtransactions for lives, content cut from the game so it can be DLC/on disk dlc, cosmetic things, and things that give an advantage online. Part of the fun in games with costumes is earning them from playing - not paying for them (or making it possible to unlock without paying, but near impossible.) And giving an advantage in online ruins it for those who don't pay extra.
The Mii costume pack is venturing into territory I don't appreciate. The extra fighters are ok as they weren't cut from the game to be DLC (as far as we know). I think if they plan on adding a lot of them, they'll need to lower the price.
@Yorumi - I know it's different, but Ntinedo didn't have to keep making 2 of the same game w/ only cosmetic differences and a few different Pokemon, they could have just made 1 game. Which they usually do, except for B&W2 where they made 2 games again rather than just Gray.
My point is it's a way to wring more money out of their fans, and they've been doing it for 15 years. DLC and microtransactions may be new, but unorthodox methods of making money isn't.
I've already spent over $400 dollars on Smash, over $600 if you include amiibo. I don't mind spending $6 more on these awesome costumes.
Edit: FYI: Got 1 Wii u copy, 4 3DS copies, 2 White Smash Gamecube Controllers, GC adapter, and 2 additional Pro controllers. Around 15 amiibo, mostly at retail price.
I think you should all get used to this, b/c it isn't going away. 1 and done is a thing of the past. Or quit gaming.
And as game distribution becomes more digital and less on disc I'm assuming this will just get worse and worse. Look what happened to Lego Hobbit. Put 2 movies on a disc, say the 3rd will be DLC, then don't do it.
On the bright side, everything may become cheaper for the majority of us w/ the microtransaction model, but on the downside buying a game and having it all will be the exception to the rule, and those who want a complete game experience, well we own over 65 Skylanders toys, they weren't free.
@Quorthon I think part of the problem with All Stars Battle Royale is that the characters just don't mesh as well for some reason. Something about all of Nintendo's characters (and a few 3rd party) fighting together just works. The ones in All Stars feel almost random, even though they aren't for the most part.
Another flaw with that game is that it isn't very rewarding - it requires you to fill up a meter by attacking other players, and when filled it allows you to use the game's version of a Final Smash to KO opponents, but if you miss, then the last few minutes you spent fighting to fill that meter amount to nothing and are wasted. Essentially your progress is erased. It's even worse when that's the only way to KO opponents.
It's a good, but not great, game overall though.
Mario kart dlc for me has been brilliant and i am hoping at e3 they announce another dlc option for battlemode. I stil think toon link would have been a better fit mind but a good test for smash/nintendo kart. Same with hyrule warriors.
I do think it a good thing and at least we have a choice to purchase extras. The same with amiibos. You dont have to get them. I think they have created the smash ballot to add dlc but to also see what people may want in smash nx. Still not sure if i will buy everything.
Thank GOODNESS someone else noticed this. No matter the company micro transactions don't benefit the consumer UNLESS it's properly released DLC that comes out a month or so AFTER release (e.g. Mario Kart 8 and somewhat Hyrule Warriors).
If Nintendo were to release a season pass/bundle of ALL Smash micro transactions I'd support it, but DON'T nickle and dime me with stupid costumes. I was really excited for those costumes until I saw a price associated to it.
Unfortunately Nintendo is apparently adopting the methods of the competition, not only with paid DLC, but also little figures that add on content. Sometimes it works out well for the consumer, other times it's a travesty compared to the company from the last decade that I supported no matter what.
@rjejr
Right about Pokemon. I'll defend it a little as it promoted reasons to interact with other players that would have a different experience: a large part of the charm.
But the bigger point is that people get caught up in all these little implementation details like whether it was on the disk already. Someone claimed on-disk dlc on Hyrule Warriors and I didn't even know it was that way. I was completely satisfied with the content and it even surpassed my expectations as far as hours of play go and variety of play within its framework. Should I be retroactively pissed off now?
In the end it's about whether it is worth it to you to buy or not and whether you feel ripped off. Where the content is trapped away, on server or on disk, or when it was made, in time for launch as part of the sales strategy, or after launch as part of an identical sales strategy, should really have no bearing on that. People make it a problem for themselves for reasons I don't understand.
Hey, I actually really enjoyed All Stars and thought the characters move sets represented the franchises very well.
@UnseatingKDawg Except where it limits or interferes with gameplay or game progression… which is a major issue. Beyond that, once Nintendo purposely begins withholding content and designing around the notion of slicing up game content to make more money, and releases a game that really isn't the finished game it would have been before DLC, it ceases to be a Nintendo game in the truest sense. By their own statements, releasing a game in this manner is a disservice to their audience, cheapens the experience and isn't a complete experience.
I find all the DLC arguing and fighting funny.I don’t care what Nintendo does with their DLC I don’t care if they have it available day 1 or if it’s huge or meaningless.
When DLC comes out I ask 2 questions :
How much does it cost?
What do I get for that money?
Then I determine if the joy I think I’ll get out of it is worth the money they’re requiring for it. If the answer is yes then I buy it, if the answer is no then I pretend it doesn’t exist (as opposed to getting upset like some people).
Some examples:
Mario Kart-at first I wasn’t going to get it, but then I realized that this is one of the few games my wife enjoys playing with me so extending the game play like was worth it and I bought both packs.
Super Luigi U- I enjoyed the first game, and I like speed levels and I couldn’t care less that the overworld presentation was identical plus my little girl could join me as the easier to control Nabbit so $20 for just as many levels was a no-brainer for me. Turned out I enjoyed it even more than I expected to.
Fire Emblem: My favorite 3DS game (until Friday when Xenoblade comes out) I didn’t buy any of the DLC because I couldn’t find anyone to tell me when to buy it (since your characters level up buying the levels too early makes them impossible to beat and buying them too late makes them boringly easy) so I didn’t think levels that were too easy or to hard would be any fun so even though it’s still my favorite 3DS game I never bought any of them.
Hyrule Warriors-This one is still a possibility. If I get all the way through the existing content (I only recently bought this game) and I still want to play more levels then I’ll buy the level packs, if I never finish the existing levels then I won’t pay money for the privilege of having more levels that I won’t play.
Smash-I couldn’t care less about Mewtwo or Lucas I won’t buy either because I won’t ever play as either of those characters. However the Dunban Mii will bring back fun nostalgic feelings from Xenoblade (I already experienced this with Shulk who is by far my most used character so far) so for less than a dollar to get that rush of superficial fun I’ll be all in.
However I’m not angry or bitter about the fact that Nintendo is doing DLC that doesn’t interest me anymore than when they make games that don’t interest me (I’m lookin at you Kirby and the Rainbow Curse or Yoshi’s new island)
@IceClimbers I think the way they did supers made the gameplay very strategic. Do I spam level one attacks that usually take out one or maybe two people if very well timed or do I save up for the stronger level three attack nearly guaranteed to wipe most people out. It was fluid depending on the map and I really enjoyed it.
A huge problem to me, is that this DLC, and Amiibo junk are essentially hiding Nintendo's biggest problem...no games! The 3DS appears to have a barren schedule coming up. And this is right after releasing the new 3DS. Splatoon being bundled with Amiibo looks desperate to me. But even when they do decide to pump out games ( which they could do with Wii U retail, Wii VC, all VC, indie, etc), it ends up either being a platformer or another genre they have killed to death. I love Nintendo, but they are on a prolonged lunch break that they may never come back from.
I don't mind DLC to a certain extent. For example, the Mario Kart DLC added a lot in terms of gameplay. However, there's a fine line between DLC done right, and a cash grab. Nintendo are starting to try out different DLC options, and I hope they don't continue heading towards the bad kind.
@ShadJV Thank you for pointing that out, now you have a point. I just think a lot of people are getting to be worried for their future, including me.
@GraveLordXD I second that very much.
@Kaze_Memaryu Hyrule Warriors wasn't on-disk DLC at all, with the exception of the spinner tied behind the amiibo. Everything else sold in the paid DLC packs was made after the game was finished. It was announced right around the US release date, but that's only because the game had been done for a while by that point and had been released in Japan a month before that.
Don't really understand what your complaint about the MK8 DLC is. As for Xenoblade Chronicles X, that game is already finished. It went gold a couple weeks ago. The Day 1 DLC that game has, while I don't condone it, is likely cosmetic stuff.
Anyways, with the Smash stuff I think the fighters are reasonably priced. The Mii Fighter costumes are a cash grab, but at least they're an afterthought. I'd probably only buy one or two, and only on the Wii U version.
@Cyberbotv2 That's just stalling tactics. That's normal for April.
@yorumi
About dlc you said, "It would make you wonder if they didn't plan these tracks out in advance and then say "well we have typically released MK with 32 tracks so we'll just consider everything else extra so we can sell it as dlc." Basically never advance beyond some arbitrary point for the base game and sell all the rest as dlc."
So, if developers plan DLC it's bad? Not only can it not be on disk, if they even thought about it ahead of time, it's wrong?
Just because there are missed deadlines doesnt mean they are just making it all up as they go along. Projects have expected returns. Even when changes are made during development I don't see some shady purpose behind adding dlc. For instance, as the core game takes longer to develop than expected, simultaneously developed art assets for dlc content seems like a reasonable way to offset the snowballing costs.
I like to see Nintendo embracing DLC, but as the article states, the value varies wildly. While the MK8 courses and racers add a genuine amount of extra content, the Mii costumes seem steep in comparison. Finding a value balance is going to be a tricky thing to gauge.
@aaronsullivan - I can't imagine how many hours Hyrule Warriors would take to finish all 4 adventure maps - not A's just playing them all - and get all the skulltula. And I can't imagine anyone leveling up all characters to 250. So that was $20 well spent. And the Ganon levels rock.
And I'm ok w/ the $12 for the 16 MK8 tracks.
Stuff I don't like I don't buy.
My 1 big gripe - and several people have touched on it there - is the availability of Splatoon amiibo. That's an online vs. game, and people who have those amiibo will have better weapons. That's NOT good. You can NOT sell an online vs game and tell some people lucky enough to find amiibo they get better weapons than the rest. They need to have an over-abundance of those on shelves. And I can't trust them to do that.
People don't want to spend the money, fine. People don't like toys, fine. But they have to be readily available to those who do want them.
I'm ok w/ the microtransaction stuff. Been playing app games for 3 years at least and so far I've never had a problem w/ it. Never encountered "pay to play" or "pay to start". Don't want it in my platformers or Zelda, but keep it where it belongs - match 3, etc. - and its fine.
@Quorthon So IGN just posted a video about how Nintendo of America has a secret employee-only store, and they showed some of the stuff they bought from it (likely when they went there for hands-on time with Splatoon).
Guess what isn't always in stock there?
@rjejr To be fair, the weapons given by the amiibo I don't believe were said to be better. They just said that the weapons were exclusive. That doesn't mean they're better. Also, I imagine so few people would be able to get the amiibo that not enough people would be able to even use it in the first place.
I think the issue is more whether the game as released is complete. I think both mk8 and smash are. The dlc is a little expensive, but it's far from essential.
@DiscoGentleman #Nintendo Employee
The nintendo policy was always to deliver a complete game first and foremost, mario golf, smash 4, mario kart 8, have all been the largest of their brand and then had dlc additionally.
If anyone deserves a needling over dlc it's EA, ubisoft, 2K Games, and 99.9% of mobile game companies.
Micro transactions are a thing because people pay for them. I don't mind them, as long as it's a complete game without them.
as long as nintendo doesn't release half backed games , and keep the dlc just for the extras & costumes , i'm fine with that.
what bother me the most with game developers such as ubisoft, Capcom ,EA
& sometimes square, is the games additional side quests & story related DLC that being announced even before the release of the game.
I miss the old days when you only need to pay once for a game.
I figured out @Quorthon wasn't a fan of amiibos way back in our little argument in the European Nintendo Download earlier today. And I can understand that, but then again, Nintendo needs to know how to balance things between those who own amiibos and those who, like me, still don't: if amiibo support doesn't overshadow the actual content of games, then there shouldn't be any problem - those who don't own any don't miss out on much stuff, those who do get a nice but not indispensable bonus, and everybody pretty much wins. But it's gonna be tricky - it's cool that once users own an amiibo, the bonuses it grants apply to many other games, however this trend doesn't outgrow the content accessible to everyone. Disc-Locked Content (a derogatory term I've devilishly grown to love) wasn't funny way back when Capcom did it, and it won't be funny when (or, more optimistically, IF) Nintendo eventually overdoes it.
With the amiibo topic out of the way (at least for me, but it'd be fun if Quorthon had something to say about my post), let's talk about actual DLC. Two words: about time. Not only Mario Kart 8 got the pricing right, with one of the best quality-to-price ratios ever seen in a season pass (even according to my Xbox-loving friend, a frequent critic of Nintendo), but also, at long last, DLC is going to be a thing in Super Smash Bros. as well, where we should have been able to get some additional content way back in Brawl. DLC is perfect for any game were the number of characters is large and varied enough to get us to use the word "roster", especially with crossovers where characters from different places in a single franchise (Mario Kart) or characters from different games altogether (Super Smash Bros.) meet. And as much as Sakurai has earned his vacation already (look up "calcific tendonitis" if you don't know what I mean), I'm also glad SSB has bowed down to requests and embraced this concept at long last, because it just makes too much sense. As for other series, why not? New Super Mario Bros. 2 made good use of DLC as well (Gold Classics Pack, anyone?) and I'd be fine to see more Nintendo games expanding on what players already own... provided it fits (read: no expansions for a map in a 2D Metroid game, for example).
The Mii DLC would be worth it if we could use our Miis online. I would liked to see a "Mii Arena" mode as DLC where you can only use Miis online or something.
As long as Nintendo doesn't use DLC so it can rush out games like we see on other systems or lock important parts of games behind pay walls (Like Assassins Creed 2) I'm with them embracing DLC. Smash Bros fighters as DLC is a great idea although I think the price is a tad steep, especially if they release loads, Free-to-Play isn't for me.
My worry is for Smash Bros is they may charge for stuff that had previously been shown such as Tournaments and the Miiverse stage. These were not shown as additional paid for DLC but I fear Nintendo will see money instead of rewarding initial purchase.
@IceClimbers - You're probably correct, but I doubt I'm the only one who would equate "exclusive" with "better", and Nintendo should clarify that before the game releases. Though I'd rather they just concentrate on making enough amiibo Splatoon that we don't have to worry about it.
@rjejr @IceClimbers
I'd bet any weapons unlocked from those Amiibo missions are either just for looks or only available in local modes of play. I didn't even notice weapons, though. Was that in the treehouse session?
@Tucker
No need to worry, considering the 200cc in Mario Kart 8 is free. Making people pay for Tournament Mode makes no sense. They won't do it.
@Sir420 400 dollars on Smash bros?(Not counting amiibo)Wow i can honestly never spend that much on any game.
@AlexSora89
I doubt it too but you never know stranger things have happen
@Tucker
You just had to remind me of the lack of VS. mode in single player modes in Mario Kart 7.
@DiscoGentleman Agreed (your 2nd coment) it buggs me that some ppl fly off the handle with DLC... Yes some companys take the "Wii" with it but done right DLC is a grate thing expanding apone a Game giveing extra life to it specialy if your like me and suck games dry of content in a few days.
Put simply here's what I believe,
1) it's nice to see nintendo giving the fans what they want, offering dlc in general is a good approach for the company, and like the guy said earlier they get slammed for being behind the times so why slam their new approach too?
2) we can't fault nintendo's appreciation of its fans, club nintendo being a prime example. Which takes me onto number three.
3) we can't complain about price when they give us so many occasional offers, which are more often than not exceptional value, I recently downloaded the MK8 dlc after redeeming it from club nintendo, they didn't have to do that, nobody else reward us as consumers as much as they do.
4) amiibo are guilty, in all fairness, gone are the days of unlockable simplicities through skill, but their cool though aren't they?
@aaronsullivan @rjejr Agreed.
@TwilightAngel That $400 is probably the Wii U + the Gamecube adapter bundle.
@IceClimbers Well if you read the rest of his post,he bought 1 Wii u copy, 4 3DS copies, 2 White Smash Gamecube Controllers, GC adapter, and 2 additional Pro controllers. Around 15 amiibo, mostly at retail price. Add those up,it's crazy how much he spent on Smash.
I'm only disappointed that they're charging money for the costumes. Considering that it'll cost about $10+ to download them all (at least in Australia), that's quite a hefty amount considering that they offer absolutely nothing gameplay-wise. The Mario Kart 8 DLC cost a similar amount and offered half of a retail game worth of content.
I think that Nintendo should have allowed amiibo to unlock the DLC costumes in Super Smash Bros. as they do in Mario Kart 8. Considering how much of an investment amiibo are for those who collect them, I think that they could easily have subsidised the cost of developing those costumes through amiibo sales. I'll probably cave in and buy the costumes, but Nintendo is really pushing it.
I'll be honest I love a good DLC. Fire Emblem Awakening? Amazing DLC! Mario Kart 8? Incredible DLC! Hyrule Warriors? Outstanding DLC!
And not even with Nintendo, Borderlands and Batman Arkham City and a lot of other games. The only kind of dlc that I hate is Call of Duty or Battlefield alike, day one dlc with 3 maps for multiplayer! C'mon what the hell?!
@TwilightAngel Well damn. That is a lot.
@GrunkFace
Fun fact: I was this close to buying a Playstation Vita just because of PSASBR, which ironically beat Nintendo at their own game in one thing: releasing a SSB-type brawler/plat-fighter on a handheld before the SSB series itself could. But I'm so glad I waited for the 3DS Smash title instead.
Besides, in retrospect... yeah, you can't out-smash Smash. Part of its appeal is having Nintendo's more-or-less (the "less" being exceptions such as Samus and Snake for example) beating each other to a pulp - and the commercial for the first SSB title nailed it - but when you pull it off with a roster mostly consisting of grim 'n' gritty franchises, that magic is pretty much gone. If Sony had enough guts to negotiate the rights for Crash Bandicoot and Spyro The Dragon, it would have worked. But as-is, well, it didn't. They also should have ripped off the gameplay without any shame.
@Sir420 @IceClimbers @TwilightAngel - $600 on SSB, that's nothing.
4 main Skylanders games about $60 each ($240)
1 3DS version about $30
7 Adventure sets $25 each ($175)
2 Adventure sets $30 each ($60)
7 additional "traps" $5 each ($35)
about another 50 Skylanders averaging about $10 each ($500)
That's about $1040. Give or take. I guess since that's 4 or 5 games (w/ 3DS version) it's really only about $200 per game. Still...
Edit: Little problem w/ my math.
@Kaze_Memaryu Hyrule Warriors did not have on Disk DLC but Update DLC. Please give me a valid source for your claim. You're also complaining about the Mario Kart 8 DLC which I can't understand. It's one of the best and fairest DLC I've ever seen. Pikmin 3's DLC was overpriced if you ask me. It offered almost nothing. I agree on FE:A though. This is DLC done wrong. I'd even call it overpriced junk. Can't comment on Animal Crossing since I don't know anything about it's DLC.
As to SSB4: I know that it's not easy to design and balance characters in a fighting game, but Mewtwo is just a returning character. He even has the same moveset from Melee. I'm not too sure if this price is justified. For the costumes it isn't anyway, but they are just cosmetics which I definetly won't buy.
Anyway, I think it's good that Nintendo is experimenting with DLC, although they still have to improve a lot in that area. However, if Nintendo ever goes the Microtransactions-in-a-retail-game-route I'll stop buying their games. Just as I did with EA and Ubisoft. This is the worst offender someone can do imo.
As to Amiibos: I think they have to treat this carefully. I haven't played Mario Party 10, but I read that you can unlock a game mode with them. If that's the case I don't want any of that. I think they should be mainly used for the likes of costumes. Like using a Shulk costume by using a Shulk amiibo in Fire Emblem or XCX. I don't know why people need justification to purchase Amiibos. I bought a Samus, Link and Marth Amiibo, but not because I wanted to use them in a game, but because I love those characters and they look great. I'd rather prefer them having less impact on game content than locking gameplay content behind them.
On a side note: DLC is optional, especially in non story-heavy games (which almost all Nintendo games are). If you buy those costumes + Mewtwo you're roughly paying 15 € which is about the cost of some amazing Indie titles such as Shovel Knight, Stealth Inc. 2 and Don't Starve (I'm pretty sure it'll settle for this price). Just my 2 cents.
I usually withhold my judgement on DLC depending on how much content a game can have. Everybody gets angry for inconsequential DLC yet when Valve does it on their games like TF2 and DOTA2 nobody complains and proceeds to meme the poop out of them most probably because of their community opening up shops and designing the same costumes to make a quick buck too but in the earlier days of "Heavy has a new hat meme" microtrans full retail purchase of games, everybody loses their shite over it.
So really, I don't understand why some are upset over it. People wanted Nintendo to get with the times and they did. They offered DLC because they're "modernizing" and that they're not "trendsetters" anymore.
It's the future you chose.
@DiscoGentleman
Yes, there will be, because the price point for Mewtwo and Lucas is outrageous. Furthermore, content is being locked behind paywalls, Day One.
This isn't MGWT, nor HW, nor MK8, which have provided content after release.
And we still have NO ASSURANCE that said DLC content wasn't already created in the normal development cycle and simply held back until a 'proper' gray area time where it could be argued and thus rationalized in the buyer's mind.
"B-but industry standard! Sony and Microsoft get away with it!"
If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you? Nintendo just did. Their answer to competing with more convenient, cheaper smartphone games that, albeit shallow, satisfy the consumers' needs was to CHARGE MORE.
Well guess what, this DLC costs as much as a decent game that will be played by millions more. Furthermore, those games don't cost the consumer an extra piece of hardware that's awkward and underspec'd. The monetary Value Proposition of Nintendo is gone - that all takes away from Nintendo's content being "premium." Even furthermore, all recent entries by Nintendo have either been generic and lackluster, or have been hyped very far up AND THEN ALSO screwed up in major ways that used to be non-issues or 'things of the past/old, bad game design.'
If the NX is underspec'd again (which Miyamoto already indicated with his comments about why they weren't using on 'this' console, as opposed to a new one), awkward from a hardware standpoint (it needs to be convenient - no more hapless VC, loyalty program, and ideally be both portable and console in one), and the games continue to fail to deliver as they are doing now both in terms of base content/DLC and the quality of the aesthetics, stories, music (BAH BAH BAH-BAH), and gameplay, Nintendo WILL find themselves in Capcom's shoes, because this is exactly what happened to them on a much larger scale.
Hopefully this gen is just a slump, a frontier, for Nintendo, and they get their act together next gen.
Because Sony and MS games just aren't worth playing.
i'm fine with the ssbb dlc, nintendo usually only releases 1-2 of its franchise entries (though i'm counting 2d and 3d mario/zelda games as different franchises since they play a bit different) per console and this lets them continue to add to the games before the next consoles. there's 5-7 years between consoles.
the freemium pokemon games worry me though, they forced downloaded shuffle on my 3ds. freemium games offer a different experience than the pay up front and done games, one is sorta meant to disappoint to entice. plus you hear those horror stories right? the kid who doesn't understand what they're doing or people not realizing the money they're spending adding up for simply not worth it.
i agree it seems that nintendo is getting some leeway for its new practices though.
Yeah £8.72 for all costumes on Wii U and 3ds is TOO MUCH! I can get a game on eShop for that much money! But I'll buy two costumes I like as 79p for one is a good price.
Nintendo 3ds home menu themes are also overpriced! £1.79 is okay if it's an amazing theme. Themes should be cheaper or if not then offer discounts and deals (e.g. buy 3 themes, get 1 free)
Don't you dare compare DLC and microtransactions.
DLC adds more to a game to extend its lifespan.
Microtransactions force you to keep paying for just the basic game.
Man @rjejr you're such a show off!
@Colonelpacman They also offer many promotions. Remember the MK8 bonus game promotion where if you register Mario Kart 8 on Club Nintendo before the promotion deadline, you can choose which game you want to download for free. (from the selection list) I chose Sonic Lost World.
Remember the So many games! promotion where if you register 3 3ds games from the list of eight titles on Club Nintendo, you'll be eligible to choose a fourth game from the list and download it free? very generous.
There was also other promotions: Monster Hunter: Gift & Hunt Together Promotion, SUPER MARIO 3D LAND Welcome Promotion and the Animal Crossing: New Leaf: Welcome a Friend Promotion.
"Perhaps times, and the definition of "unwholesome", have changed."
I'm going to ask you this, have you ever taken a management course? In my courses, they say sometimes executives have to tell shareholders things to either appease them or to say what they are really going to do. In many cases, it's to appease shareholders and stakeholders (customers) alike, and the company's real goals are not in line with stated goals. In essence, it's almost encouraged to deceive people. Anyone who has taken business courses knows it isn't above companies to say one thing and do another, not saying it's right, but it's common.
Also, not buying those costumes, complete ripoff. However, I'll buy a character because it comes out to $2.50 a pop and both games are different, no matter how hard you try to spin it otherwise, so you're getting one character on two games, not a horrible deal since that's what is going on.
Refuse to buy DLC. Don't care how good the value is. Sad to see Nintendo has embraced it like everyone else, along with mobile. I'll just buy the full games and how they still offer the same amount of content.
It's a worrying practice to speak truthfully. I'm really worried about Fire Emblem If (but I'll wait for more info before I judge too harshly) and the Awakening DLC was mostly not worth it (I bought two packs, mostly because I wanted to experience the side-story of the destroyed world.)
I want to embrace reasonable additions to games that I enjoy but exorbitant price-points for glorified cosmetics is pushing it sadly.
it's funny, I've got no problem with this. I trust Nintendo to do it well, and for what it's worth: of all the companies that could do it, isn't Nintendo the most likely choice?
With fewer differences betweens sequels, DLC seems to be where the industry is headed. I think we'll see more games evolve in this fashion, than having distinct instalments. In that regard, it is as unreasonable to expect all DLC to be free as it would be to except a new game to be free.
@HyperSonicEXE Fighting characters take a lot of work for animations, testing, balancing against every other move in the game, tweaking, etc. There's a ton of variables that go into creating a fighter. $5 is a reasonable price point for a fighter for both versions of the game.
You want assurance that the content wasn't created in the main development cycle? Ok. People have data dumped both versions of the game and found evidence of other fighters and stages who were cut, yet have data in the game. Mewtwo and Lucas did not. If they were being worked on and completed in the main dev cycle, the characters would have had data in the main game's code.
Generic? Which games from Nintendo recently have been generic? Other than the NSMB series, I haven't seen anything generic come out of Nintendo. I don't see how they've failed to deliver in terms of quality of aesthetics (they look great), story (most Nintendo games have never had much of a story), or music (again, the NSMB series is the only one guilty of this).
Nintendo's ambition in life is to make money and as much of it as possible. This goes for any company.
They will do whatever they think is the best way to achieve this and if a few individuals don't agree with them then tough luck. Don't like DLC then quit gaming.
I am no fan of Amiibo but hell, if it fills the coffers then why not?
I have also believed Nintendo needed to come out of that primitive age they found themselves in these last two gens. The Wii sold well but then those races evolved or died out and not many were left to buy the Wii U.
To go back on a "promise" of no DLC and no core games on other devices shows that they are beginning to figure out the world doesn't revolve around them and things move on.
I am only one individual but if they want me to buy into they future systems then they still have a way to go. I am a fan of nintendo but not a blind fanboy of Nintendo.. or any company for that matter.
@IceClimbers
$5 amongst how many people?
I mean really, they'll more than recover their costs, far more.
That still doesn't mean their data wasn't scrapped completely, to safely erase any trace. And besides, Smash isn't the only offender.
NSMB is the easiest one to point to, but I'd also point out the new Yoshi games, the new Kirby platformers, and DKCR. SM3DW was borderline, the stages did not mesh with their worlds most of the time. DKCTF had definite improvement, but the menus were bland and the Snowmads are just too one-off. And Smash4 is just a reskin of Brawl.
I don't intend to sound like a whiner, but I don't like any of Nintendo's recent moves. Sure, I can pass on the new 3ds xl size and hope for the standard I wanted. I don't have to buy any overpriced dlc, or games that claim to be cross buy and are the price of two games. I don't have to waste time on any FTP Pokemon. But what does that leave? Seriously, the only games I'd really planned to buy this year (X and Zelda U) have no release dates yet. If Nintendo is insisting on changing products and services, and I don't like their new products and services, not to mention some of the pricing for said products, where does that leave me as a long term customer? I've been a Nintendo gamer for nearly 30 years, and I can honestly say I've never had so little interest in so many of their offerings. It's a lucky thing for me I have so many games in my backlog.
@Hotfusion
"Don't like DLC then quit gaming."
Hey, edge-lord, it doesn't work that way - companies' IP's like EA's, Ubisoft's, and Capcom's crumble after DLC is introduced. The companies "quit gaming" long before the consumer does (OF they do).
@umegames And what is the incorrect way? I hate to say it but the disc locked stuff through ammibo that some people will never be able to get because of the amiibo shortage and then the DLC for skins and such just keeps coming.... What is the "right way"?
@XCWarrior I played 100s of hours of Mario Kart 8. I spent a relatively small price to add an extra 50% of content to the game (at muss less than half the retail price) and played it for 100s more hours.
Mario Kart 8 is an example of great DLC that is worth the money, or would you rather they release it on a disc at 3 times the price as it's own game?
At one point, I purchased Nintendo products because they were not like everything else out there. If I wanted to pay for DLC garbage and not a complete game I would be playing WOW and have every installment of COD. I hope Nintendo learns quickly to go back to the Nintendo Seal of Quality way of doing things.
@TwilightAngel - I'm not showing off, I'm a DLC/toy warning.
While we have countless DLCs being pushed into MK8 and SSB, Platinum Games managed to deliver Bayonetta 2 with a full, large unlockables list that doesn't require any extra fee to be enjoyed. The game has twice longevity this way, I'm still playing it while my MK8 is collecting dust after I finished all cups and unlocked all characters.
Don't come to me saying that paid DLC is capable of making people replaying games. It's a profit strategy in long terms (obviously), but it never made any game better.
@rushiosan Smash has a **** ton of unlockables. What are you going on about?
@xtndedPlay Nintendo is becoming worse than many companies that offer paid DLC and microtransactions. Just take Pokémon Shuffle and Steel Diver Sub Wars as examples. They're free to play stuff with extremely limited potential for non-premium users. Now other franchises are bound to reach this standard. Mario Kart 8 is already facing problems with tournaments, the DLC packs are creating a gap between the "free" and "premium" community sides.
I seriously don't wanna watch such a fantastic game as SSB, full of unlockables, becoming a DLC cow with about 1/3 of the whole content being sold separately.
@IceClimbers For now. What if in a year or two we end up with lots of paid stages, characters and maybe a new mode though DLC?
@rushiosan That's additional content added to a full game. Plus, the character that comes from the Fighter Ballot will likely be the last of the DLC because Sakurai has been way overworked despite having a form of tendonitis in both arms (seriously, he's been working pretty much nonstop since Kid Icarus Uprising's development started in probably late 2009-early 2010)
Eh... not really something to worry about from my point of view. I mean, I'm not really super thrilled for the Smash Bros. costumes, but you don't HAVE to buy them. I think DLC really should just exist pretty much purely as extra content, and so far thats mostly all Nintendo has done. Do you really like racing in MK8, and want more tracks and characters to use? Sure, that's available. Want more Hyrule Warriors stuff? You can buy it. You want some more characters or costumes for Smash Bros? Why not, buy it? I don't see a problem here. I also don't think the price is really an issue. The MK8 DLC is an exceptionally good deal, so it's not surprising to see the new DLC cost a bit more in comparison. That being said I'm a bit wary of Pokemon Shuffle and the other free to play stuff they're doing, but in terms of DLC in pre-existing titles I have no issue.
I really don't mind the DLC Nintendo is offering because it isn't taking away from the main game like most of the other companies. The games being sold are still solid, just with more options afterwards to keep people playing and to keep making a profit.
The costumes should be unlocked if you bought certain amiibos.
@rushiosan
False. DLC made Mass Effect 3 oodles better, and ME2.
@Yorumi But all that doesn't mean a thing if the new fire emblem starts out like this......
But idk, I guess when Nintendo realizes that DLC shouldn't be like this, then I guess they will move back to standard games.
@Lizuka
Same way that music industry labels make millions upon millions - people buying music en masse at an ultimately arbitrary overall price.
This is no different, especially considering these are Veterans, not even Newcomers.
We may want Nintendo and their business partners to accept the recent waves of change conditionally, especially on terms which benefit their loyalists (us), but I'm not certain we're the #1 priority here. The writing on the wall is that an unconditional capitulation towards the recent shifts in the market is inevitable. No one is infallible, and no organization is untouchable; everyone eventually gets swept by the winds of change...
...And I say that with no glee in my heart. Indeed, this is the first time I've felt this way about this issue. The certainty of prosperity has been shattered... And yet, not all is lost.
If I want Mewtwo or Lucas, I'll get them in Project M... for free.
If I want Mii costumes, I'll look at the creative designs people made in Mii Maker, and download them... for free.
If I want DLC, I'll download them when the publisher/developer offers them as a reward to their loyal customers for buying their products... for free.
If I want access to bonus minigames, I'll connect different systems together, like Nintendo used to do... for free.
If I want to play Flash game quality titles, I'll play them like they're played on PC... for free.
Catch my drift? There's always another way!
Wow, did @Quorthon write this article. It was so negative. Why did it specifically call out Nintendo fans as not wanting DLC? Nintendo's handling DLC just like, and in some cases better, than everyone else and there's nothing wrong with that. I have quibbles with some aspects of what Nintendo is doing but I'm too tired to list them.
Also what's with all the amiibo hate. Yeah it's a "key," so what? I am an adult male and a big fan of Toys-to-Life and Nintendo. The article and many of these comments almost make it seem like I'm "wrong" for feeling that way.
For me I don't mind. I'll simply not buy what I don't want or need & anything I do want I'll go for it. Sure percentage wise, some DLC seems overpriced when compared to the price of the original game, but it's still just a few dollars. I like getting more fun out of my games so cheap DLC is great to me.
@PlywoodStick Yeah and to be fair it wasn't for lack of trying the launch of both the WiiU and the 3DS Nintendo games were DLC free. How did the market respond to these DLC free Nintendo games and by extension systems? They had terrible starts, people still called them rehashes and the biggest games of 2011-2014 were all competitor games on other systems filled with DLC and Nintendo were behind the times.
Their approach of not having DLC in their games didn't work this generation and that's good enough excuse to change, they shouldn't adopt practices of actually removing content from full games to sell but they should be allowed to atleast sell DLC without people calling them the devil or saying that Fire Emblem 14 is half a Fire Emblem game no matter how big and different each campaign is because Nintendo want to offer them separately.
It's called quality, plain and simple. Mewtwo may have been in Melee, but that was back in 2001. More than 10 years ago. He was also a favorite of many and easily could have just not made it and that'd been it. However for a small fee many can get their favorite main smash character back in all his glory in HD. Capcom would have had Mewtwo finished, on disc, then charge us to unlock him.
Also, it's quite cheaper to get Mewtwo and the Mii outfits as a bundle rather than separately. Granted my math only goes up to calculus so I could be wrong, but if buying Mewtwo for Wii U or 3DS is $3.99 per console, but getting it for both Wii U and 3DS is $4.99, my math tells me you're getting it a nice discount of 3 bucks and change as 3.99 times 2 is $7.98. SO yeah, might wanna bust out that ol calculator next time ya start tossing numbers around.
All things considered Nintendo could have left it as you have to buy each version. And the costumes are little extras that people actually want and that add flavor to the game. I was hoping for Megaman X, but if I can make a Megaman X Mii and just use him I'm happy. Plus Protoman looks awesome. Sweet baby Jesus looks so good.
This article is quite silly as Nintendo has shown since MK8 dropped and every game that has DLC since how DLC should be done. You get basically a whole new Mario Kart game for around $11.99 all together or $7.99 per DLC pack. Do you not math that value? Okay fine 7.99 times 2 is $15.98. Saving almost 4 bucks even with that. Oh I'm sorry yeah getting it at $11.99 also nets you different colors for Shy Guy and Yoshi and no extra cost. So you know, you get pointless costumes for free. Oh yeah and the 200cc patch update that so would have been DLC with any other company. Oh dang it I also forgot that the Animal Crossing DLC is coming earlier than announced. So if you paid for it and were eagerly waiting, you get it sooner.... What are we complaining about again?
Or Hyrule Warriors which has been the most brilliant DLC, adding characters, costumes, maps, levels, dogdarned Ganon mode. For $19.99. You do realize every character would be like 5 bucks each and the costumes would have been split up in such a way that you would have to by them all to get the complete set of whichever one you really wanted if you only wanted one LoZ set in particular for the characters, and charged upwards of $5.99 for each right?
This author doesn't seem to get the concept that DLC is not bad. Bad DLC is bad. DLC that adds value, but does not reduce the value of the game you purchased is always nice and so far, That's all I'm seeing with Nintendo. Things are reasonably priced, there is incentive to buy all the DLC (respectably cheaper than individual packs though the individuals aren't terribly expensive either way). But hey, that's just me.
@Dr_Lugae Maybe, but that's just from a console market only perspective... A market which is steadily vanishing, with a fading vision forward to match.
There are many big and small PC games with free DLC added on over time, as well as fan mods and creations. Some are only updated with patches; I don't think I've ever seen anyone say certain PC titles were "behind the times" for being traditional titles while not offering DLC. If anything, there are many cases where those games are lauded for not relying on or using DLC.
Would we say a very traditionalist title like Blizzard's Starcraft 2 is "behind the times" for not really incorporating DLC until it was added as a bonus to the expansion's custom game mode, while not at all affecting the main competitive mode? Hell no, that game is like a national sport in South Korea. It didn't suffer at all from a general lack of DLC, given it's pedigree. Neither have many other titles.
Nintendo doesn't have to fit into all of these narrowly perceived interpretations of what can survive in the market to succeed. They just need to carve their own identity again.
Nintendo is delivering full complete games that don't need any DLCs,
so if you want this small addons for games you will pay them, but there not essential or important at all for game itself.
So I support them for what they doing, but I would support them if they start releasing non complete games in order to make money on later DLCs.
DLC means more money for Nintendo and if that means that Nintendo is around as a hardware developer for longer, I'm happy.
This only becomes an issue if the DLC is pay to win. If it's costumes, characters & weapons/vehicles, then it's a choice.
@m50092 True.
Yep, free pass.
I thought this comments thread would be funny. Its a shame Nintendo have to go down this road as it runs the risk of sacrificing their reputation for quality at the altar of a few pennies more. You can put your unlockable DLC behind a cute toy but its still unlockable DLC. However, it was inevitable and some of their DLC has been good value. Its funny to see the zealots at work though. If Sony or MS or third-parties do it, its bad. If Nintendo do it, regardless of whether its good or not, its good. Yes it is yes it is yes it is its good because its Nintendo etc....
@Kaze_Memaryu MK8 skimpped on the number of tracks? Are you serious? Look back, and check how many tracks there have been in previous versions. Also, the time it has taken to develop both lots of DLC, a year in total, and the cheap cost for what you get, half the full game again, the MK8 DLC probably offfers some of the best value for money DLC I have ever seen or purchased.
@akaDv8R One of the best value for money DLC's I've ever purchased is The Witcher 2 Enhanced Edition, which was offered to customers of the original edition for the staggeringly expensive price of... nada!
Why aren't you playing pikmin?
@123akis Exactly, and I think a lot of people forget what Nintendo have done in the past. The MK8 DLC, for me, offers some of the best vlaue DLC I have ever seen, or paid for. As for Smash, I get the new character free, but for those that would have to buy it, they will have to judge if the character offers enough extra moves/gameplay, to warrant, what is actually, not a bad price.
People are jumping on the 'HATE NINTENDO' bandwagon yet again, before they have even done anything wrong. Certainly, they have not done anything close to EA and ACTIVISION. As someone on here has already stated, the amount of day 1 DLC Evolve had was rediculous, but I don't remenber seeing many articles complaining about it. It is purely because it is Nintendo, and they are trying something new, testing the waters. They have offered DLC in the past, and nobody moaned. Also, Pokemon Red and Blue and the others, they are virtually the same game, but you have to purchase them separately. People have been doing that for years, why have they not spoken out sooner, and showed Nintendo what they thought, by not purchasing the games?
@erv I feel responsible when I get them killed.
@Quorthon
i don't really see what;s the problem with locking content on the amiibos, It is just more convenient that having to download anything. Yes, you pay for the figurine and for certain amount of game, that's it. It's like complaining that after buying a car, the salesman calls you and offer a new stereo or something and that can be readily attached to your car, for a given price.
Even day one DLC does not bother me. If I buy Mario Kart and found it to have a lot of content for what I paid for, then if they offer more of it, I'm game (pun intended).
@akaDv8R The issue that @Kaze_Memaryu is mainly talking about is that he only wants Mario universe stuff in Mario Kart. So if you take out all the stuff outside the Mario universe (Excitebike Arena, Mute City, Hyrule Circuit, Link, Master Cycle, Triforce Tires, Hylian Kite) then DLC Pack 1's value for money doesn't seem anywhere near as great.
I'm extremely happy with Mario Kart 8's content (on disc and DLC) outside of battle mode but part of that is because I'm perfectly happy with the crossover DLC.
@maceng
Exactly. The cliche of day one DLC being an automatic negative only came to be thanks to the repeatedly poor practices of certain publishers, to the point that people started preemptively labeling any DLC or locked content as being "stripping away". And this is simply not the case, as we can all clearly see with Nintendo's responsible utilization of locked on-disc content.
The bottom line is, are you getting your money's worth for the full game, with additional content being sold in addition to (whether included on disc, reserved for Amiibo or released 6 months down the line makes no difference). Games like Destiny- that's a clear example of a game with content sectioned off and sold piece meal. But Nintendo has consistently delivered even more content than previous entries, and has only sold DLC after releasing a more-than-full sized game. So long as that's the case, they can add content to the disc for those who buy Amiibo all day long. What else are they gonna do? Have people download content? The magic is lost if it's not an instant unlock. So including it on the disc is sort of mandatory.
What I dont get though is how there are people acting like Nintendo actually trying to offer value to collectible figures by integrating exclusive content (rather than just selling $13 toys that don't do squat) is some horrible offense, even though the actual games are bursting at the seems with all kinds of content and don't even come close to being short changed, meanwhile companies like Sony and third parties are consistently reselling upres'ed PS3 games as full releases, locking Vita games behind Online Passes tied to one account (thereby locking online behind a paywall for used games), releasing games that don't work, get patched 3 times and still don't work, include $50-200 of DLC with every single release (just look at Sony's Smash Bros clone and how it handles DLC- you get half as many characters as in Smash Bros, and the other half are sold as DLC one character at a time for $6/ea, but with the characters portraits IN THE CHARACTER SELECTION SCREEN- you select that fighter thinking they're in the game but instead it takes you to the checkout cart)... this is business as usual everywhere else.
But Nintendo simply attaches the Amiibo's content to a game so it's ready to be utilized by those who own Amiibos when they tap them on the gamepad, or sells two characters as DLC after breaking franchise history for most included characters, stages and modes in any entry to date, and we get lectures on how horrible these practices are... Meanwhile 3 games released in the last WEEK with DLC that cost more than the entire game did on other platforms, and not a word was uttered against it.
I kind of feel like people are crying wolf day in day out, every single day over the littlest things, half the time over things most fans would even consider to be a positive. The problem with that is if/when Nintendo ACTUALLY does something deserving of REAL criticism, nobody's gonna want to hear it because we've been listening to criticism for so long, every single day that it becomes devalued. It becomes cheap, worthless... We're learning to just plug our ears to it.
@Grumblevolcano Ok, if that was his point, it still does not hold up. The original game came with 32 tracks. As far as I know, no other MK game has included more tracks. So, exactly how did they skimp us?
@PlywoodStick Brilliant, I am over the moon for you. Did I actually say the MK8 DLC was the BEST I had seen or purchased? No, I said it was one of the BEST value for money DLC I had purchased.
@PlywoodStick Yeah, CD Project Red are easily my favourite Devs in terms of customer treatment. They got rid of the DRM on Witcher 2, gave everyone who bought the standard edition a free upgrade to the enhanced edition and the DLC was free in general. And they announced that the DLC for Witcher 3 will be for free again.
@akaDv8R There is 1 MK game that has more than 32 tracks, Super Circuit (20 new + 20 SNES) though I don't think that's what he's referring too. Either he's solely referring to DLC of which given about half of it is outside the Mario universe you can understand his point or (rightly so) he's referring to the fact that Super Circuit continuously gets ignored with regards to the retro tracks (after DS you had 2 in Wii, 1 in 7 and 1 in 8).
Take into account here that N64 is almost always represented the most, I personally think that Royal Raceway should've been replaced with something like Cheese Land.
I don't buy DLC or do microtransactions. So I only care if it impacts my full game experience. I especially hate if a game you paid full price for shows the DLC content ingame but it's grayed out always reminding you it's there for you to buy even if you play offline.
Nothings really changed. Games never went up with inflation. Back in 1989 you could get an NES game for 60 bucks. That would be a whole lot more by today's standards. Remember the Sega CD? Try getting yourself to buy one of those games for 80 bucks back in 1993. This DLC stuff is no big deal. Games have never been cheaper and they've never looked better. Top it off they're bigger than ever too and you have the option of paying less buy not buying optional content.
@DiscoGentleman so you are just realizing that people have a myriad of thoughts and opinions - great job - it is a big world out there
Did you kids ever shell out $86 for Chrono Trigger? Or how about $60 for Tecmo NBA Basketball - in 1992 - because you didn't have the SNES yet? I'm pretty sure Chrono Trigger would be $136. So yeah - I don't mind paying $30 for Mario Golf World Tour and a little bit of DLC here and there.
@Grumblevolcano Yeah, I get your point. We all have our favourite or favourites, when it comes to MK courses. I guess, they either choose the ones that people mostly ask for, or perhaps in the case of MK8, some of the courses he would have liked, just would not have fitted with the Anti Gravity system, I don't know.
@MajinSoul The first 8-bit weapons were already in the game code (yet some of them were "DLC"), then we also have some of the costumes, and ESPECIALLY the pallete swaps (which are generated through in-game code). The easiest way to find out is by looking at the file sizes - if it's less than 10MB, it's just unlock codes.
@akaDv8R Look at the designs of the DLC tracks, and then tell me: which of these felt actually unique? Mute City and Excitebike were the only ones to come up with their own theme, while the other original tracks were bland and uninspired, and the choice of Retro tracks was simply boring and without any meaningful additions.
@Grumblevolcano Actually, that's not what I'm on about this time. Characters in general are superficial for DLC because all weight classes are already covered, meaning that the DLC characters bring nothing new in terms of gameplay. They're just reskins of existing characters (except for Link), and make absolutely no difference. If they had limitations like in MKDS, where only a certain range of vehicles was available for each character, this would have some gameplay-related context, but MK8 doesn't have that. This means that playing as Link is just like playing as Waluigi, playing as Tanooki Mario is the same as Luigi (ironically) and playing as Cat Peach is the same as Daisy (for some reason). No point to those, then. Money wasted.
@rjejr That's two completely different things. Pokémon games have 90% identical content with each dual release, but multiplayer and connectivity make this a big thing. Fire Emblem was always singleplayer-focused (the ones who tried multiplayer failed horribly), so there's no appeal to making a dual release for it. Besides, the way the "choice" was highlighted in the Nintendo Direct, it seemed like this choice was available in-game, not in-store.
I'm sure this has already been said somewhere on this page, but I won't mind DLC as long as both of the following conditions hold true.
1. I get my money's worth of content. So far, I think Nintendo's done well here. I've only bought the added tracks in Mario and for $15 you get a handful of new racers, new karts, and new tracks.
2. The extra content is NEW content and not just content locked away on the disc behind a paywall or content that Nintendo decided to cut from the full game to make me pay for it.
As long as DLC doesn't get outrageous, I'll be fine with it.
As for microtransactions... No. I won't buy those. Not a chance. I use my money to buy games (among other things) I would never spend, say, 50 cents to give Mario a Super Mushroom or a dollar to continue playing Animal Crossing today.
As long as Nintendo keeps delivering the quality content that they have always been creating, I don't mind if they keep releasing DLC and Free-To-Play games. Alot of the time, I actually enjoy the free games they make, and especially the DLC they make. Just look at Mario Kart 8. The DLC they have released gives 4 more ENTIRE cups including sixteen courses, and 6 more character options. Ten years ago this wouldn't of been possible, but having that many options for races is a huge factor for me. Content like that makes me wonder why Nintendo is releasing MewTwo for 4 bucks in North America. That seems kind of expensive, especially considering I have heard no mention of a new battle map that comes with the purchase. Hopefully I'm proven wrong, and there will be one.
@Kaze_Memaryu Personal point of view in regards to the extra characters. I am sure there are a LOT of younger gamers who are loving the ability to play as some of their other favourite Nintendo characters. As for the tracks being a waste of money, I assume you don't play them, or the new ones coming on the 28th? Probably pointless to even try the new 200cc upgrade as well. You are, and will be missing out on quite a lot, but it is a free choice, and I respect that.
@Dpullam Agreed. 4 bucks for a single character is pretty high when I honestly expected to pay a couple bucks at most. Nintendo has been pretty good at releasing dlc lately but let's hope this isn't the start of a downhill fall in quality for your money, Either way it is up to us as gamers to vote with our wallets.
Even though I don't buy much DLC...with the exception that I bought enough Sing Star songs and Little Big Planet costumes...I guess it all depends on price and what it is. Smash Bros getting new characters is a nice approach, but $4 per character would depend on what comes with that product. Nintendo needs this though, with the lack of games being released on the Wii U, it's a nice addition to keep the fans like myself happy, and let them continue to enjoy the games that they have bought. This is a good step for nintendo to make, and hopefully they continue this, but hopefully they also hire more people to help them with getting more games on the market for their systems, or we could see them in the same slump with their next systems. At least have them give money to other developers (3rd parties), to make exclusives for their next system.
@Dpishere If the gamers continue to buy DLC with high costs, we'll see more money being wanted for it, and more DLC for every game. I hate buying the DLC since I fork enough money over for the game itself, but if people continue to buy it...it's going to continue to happen. It's just not fair to people who still don't have internet and/or don't want it...they end up missing out on the DLC and some of the fabulous download-only games that come out on systems.
People hate on DLC because reasons
the problem with DLC comes with the amount of terrible developers giving terrible DLC content for outrageous prices, ($15 for 5 maps !!! are you kidding me !)
Nintendo so far has been doing it pretty well, some say amiibo might be paid DLC but A) its decently cheap, B) it works for more than one game and will work on the future C) its a figure that as cheap as may be its actually phisically and once DLC goes KIA that WILL STILL BE THERE , so i say the price is more than decent, so as long as Nintendo keeps doing its DLC on the same way they have been doing it i dont see the problem.
You guys surely didnt expect to get free content for free all the time right ? and, more importantly, Nintendo to stay out of the DLC business forever ?
@Kaze_Memaryu You sure about Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach being the same as Luigi and Daisy respectively? I'm pretty sure Mario and Luigi have the same stats (same with Peach and Daisy) so hence Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach have different stats (slightly lighter and more acceleration). I agree about Link being a Waluigi/Roy/Rosalina/DK clone in terms of stats though.
I expect Dry Bowser's stats compared with Bowser to be equivalent as comparing Tanooki Mario and Mario and hence it being the most OP character instead of Bowser/Wario/Morton/Large Mii which I guess would bring in the whole pay to win aspect that everyone hates.
Remember the time when you could unlock extra content in your games with only your skills? i miss those days...
"Perhaps times, and the definition of "unwholesome", have changed."
I totally hear that and I think they definitely have; across the entire industry and indeed in all walks of life, specifically business practices in this particular case.
The negative and indeed absolute power of money, be it the acquisition of great amounts of it or even the almost total lack of it, is slowly but surely corrupting more and more of our core values in society and it's becoming more and more evident to the average gamers as these games companies find more and more ways of monetising almost every little facet of daily life in the form of one slightly questionable entertainment product/service or another; usually in such a way that it starts to border on a form of abuse (certainly if you think about how most mobile developers manipulate and trick their users into spending more and more of their hard earned money on basically crap). The entire remit of business is now about selling us fleeting moment of "happiness", be it in relation to health, ambitions and life goals, relationships or even basic 'play', and the truth is that in this modern world it's very hard to find any such things without having to purchase them in one way or another; certainly for the average necessarily working adult who spends most of their waking life sitting at a desk just trying to make enough money to live let alone afford to buy all the things they've been told they need to be happy (and do in fact need to buy more and more in the modern world just to be somewhat happy, never mind survive).
We can no longer afford to be innocent and happy children, sadly, but if we all just spend a few more bucks on a few more amiibo cards or funky outfits for our Smash Bros Mii fighters, while most of the world lives in abject poverty and even the large majority of those of us that don't live in abject poverty really don't live the lives we would actually want (because we simply cannot afford to), then maybe we can all be distracted and not have to think about that for a few more minutes...
For all you kids and teens out there however; you don't really have to worry about such bothersome things...yet. So, enjoy all this entertainment stuff and revel in it for as long as you possibly can...before the walls of fantasy land come crashing down to reveal the horrible disturbing truth of the real world outside; just...beyond...your...bedroom...window BOO!*
*I'm thinking I could probably turn this into some kind of cool horror story lol "Just stay in here and play children. Don't go outside the room. Everything you need to be happy is in this room. Horrible disturbing things exist on the outside. Things you can't imagine. You don't want to see what's waiting on the other side of this bedroom door; creeping outside your bedroom window; lurking just beyond the safety of these four walls. Don't...go...outside...the...room..."
@DiscoGentleman
Not surprised.
@Neferupitou
Ditto.
DLC is valid if it legitimately expands the game outside of the development cycle and after release, something that wasn't available with old-school, but that instance of DLC is rare. For all Smash4's problems, I certainly appreciate the balance patches that they've been applying.
@maceng
Actually, it's like buying a car, and then when you call them back to ask why the included stereo doesn't work, they tell you that despite you already paying for it, as it was included with the car, you need to buy an expensive toy to place on your dashboard to actually "unlock" the stereo.
Basically, on-disk DLC, or locking away portions of a game behind an Amiibo paywall means Nintendo is forcing you to pay for the content twice. If it's already on the disk that you paid for, it should be accessible. At this point, any hacker that wants to break into the game code to unlock the stuff that's already there, I say go for it.
@Captain_Gonru - My new avatar wants to race your new avatar.
Butting in to your reply to Q - I bought Other M at Target about 3 years ago for $4.98 clearance. I bought a 3 pack of Bioshock Infinite, Bioshock and Skyrim for $15 this past January. I may never ever get to play Lego City Undercover. Unless I get another $1 Gamefly offer, playing Last of Us and Sonic Boom now. Kirby's Epic Yarn OTOH dropped in price real fast. Kirby's Return to Dreamland I had to repurchase $50 USED.
They're in an odd spot now, some things I like and some I dont.
As long as the software is still Nintendo quality and they arent stripping pieces of a game out only to sell it to me later, I'm fine. Their other mumbojumbo is for some other market.
@Captain_Gonru
I think it's a false dichotomy to assume that a game dropping in price means it doesn't retain value. BioShock Infinite very likely made back it's money pretty quickly and was one of the highest rated games of its year, and the publisher was find with dropping the MSRP so that it could reach an even wider audience. BioShock Infinite was also a freebie on either Games With Gold or PSN+ fairly recently. Are there some cases of this? Of course there are. Duke Nukem Forever was a notorious (though expected) flop that was discounted extremely quickly to move copies. However, any other game dropping over a year is normal for this industry--even highly successful titles.
My point is that Nintendo wants to milk a game for the most money for the longest possible time, and aren't interested in reaching new audiences (which they have shown with the New 3DS), and that keeping these prices high is an artificial way in making the games look like they hold value. But when Nintendo never drops the price, neither do places like GameStop because the Nintendo consumers have been trained that they will always have to pay full price for anything because Nintendo's business practice is less about reaching new people and more about trying to make as much money as possible off the existing audience.
Here's the other thing--this is clearly not working for Nintendo, at least where spreading to new consumers is concerned. Nintendo wants me to pay $50 for a 5-year-old game. That looks greedy in this day and age. With any other publisher, I can get 2~3 new games that old for about the same price.
Now, you can defend it because you like Nintendo, or try to spin out the "holds value" argument, but at the end of the day, it just plain looks unfair when other game publishers lower prices to appeal to new audiences. This "pay more for Nintendo" defense only occurs for Nintendo. The "New European Releases" article highlighted what cheapskates many Nintendo fans are when $20 for a complete game is "too much money," but $50 for a 5-year-old Nintendo game is somehow still acceptable.
No, I don't think it's acceptable. Nintendo is gouging their fans.
Also look at the point of view of later-adopters for new consoles. When I buy an Xbox One, say, a year or two from now, I can off-set the high price of a new console because there are so many great games that are now $20 or $30. Late adopters to the Wii U have no advantage since Nintendo refuses to lower prices. So the longer the generation goes on, the Nintendo console continues to look less enticing. Late adopters are late adopters, often, for financial reasons (sometimes because they are waiting for a certain level of growth to the library). In 2016, I'll, say, be spending $350 on an Xbox One and be able to get three high-profile games for another $60. In 2016, I'll, say, be spending $300 on a Wii U, but for the same price as the XBO, I get only two games--and weaker hardware.
Your note about "not being able to keep Smash Bros in stock" instantly sparks few points: 1. Clearly, after 5 years, regardless of Nintendo's pricing, they are not going to be shipping nearly as many copies of the game. 2. I can't think of ever seeing a retailer that didn't have a Smash Bros game readily available after the initial launch hype. 3. With Amiibo and the New 3DS launch, Nintendo has shown that they have little to no understanding of supply and demand or how to fairly deliver products to their consumers.
This article is such garbage. It just seems to be an attempt to spark controversy. First of all, the maths is wrong on equating the value of adding an additional character (dlc) to game that's already been delivered to the public. I can go into a long winded approach to justifying the cost but I am going to try and make it simple. In any form of manufacturing or distribution their are two methods of purchase: Bulk or single. If you buy something in bulk the cost is reduced because they are all (delivered) packed together, or batch developed at the same time. If you buy a single item the cost increases (in some cases to nearly the same cost as the batch) because the same resources are used to develop the said product at the same cost as a batch build (bulk Vs singular).
On to the second point. Nintendo is losing market share because its principles are (or were) behind the times. Its 40 million strong users base has shrunk to 10 million this generation, so something had to change. The business practice that are criticised by Nintendo fans are working everywhere else (on PC, Mobile, Playstation & Xbox), yet the business practice that is lauded by Nintendo fans is not making Nintendo enough money to not be considered a failure. Times have changed and Nintendo has to change with it. So when Nintendo makes an effort to modernise (and I commend them for resisting this long) they get criticised, and to rub salt in to the wound, there's murmurings of retaliation by voting with your wallets. All that says to any analyst (within Nintendo), is that Nintendo needs to focus on getting the 30 million customers back and spend less time pandering to the 10 million who not only can't make up their minds about what Nintendo should do as a company but also can no longer sustain Nintendo as a business.
@brandonbwii
I write and speak based on reality. If you see that as "negative", it is because that is what you are looking for. It is neither positive or negative. It is reality.
It's like when Tipper Gore saw S&M and anti-parent messages in music. That's what she wanted to see. You are seeing what you want to see.
@IceClimbers
Ohh! What wasn't in stock? Was it Vitas?
I bet they're out of Vitas.
@akaDv8R Oh, I did play them. And that's exactly how I realized that most of these tracks were just boring. So technically, I'm not missing out on anything - I'm wasting my time on it (which I'll do again for the second MK8 pack, just to see if they finally got their heads working). The 200cc thing might be the best idea Nintendo had for Mario Kart in a very long time.
Also, people liking things =/= things are good. Just because many enjoyed the characters doesn't magically make them more meaningful to the gameplay.
@Grumblevolcano Not 100%, but I'm pretty sure that's what more observant MK8 players concluded through stat comparison. Could be mixing up some stuff, but it's still a huge letdown how much potential was wasted on the characters.
@Quorthon
By your statement I know that you have never made or sold a game before.
You don't reduce the price of your game because its selling well and you don't keep the price the same just to keep an artificial value. The price stays the same if you believe that audience will pay for it, or else retail will drop it and stop purchasing it. But just as an example: Bioshock infinite cost around $200 million dollars to create and market($100m development & $100m marketing). It sold 4.1 million units in its lifetime. Just to break even they would have to make (after retail take their cut) $50 per game. The game was a financial flop. They needed 8 million users + to purchase the game to reduce the deficit to $20 per game. They had no choice but to reduce the games price to recover costs and to use DLC to further recuperate.
Nintendo on the other hand keeps their price static because they realised that their IP are long earners and not for status. They realised that they have IP that can sell for 4 years + unlike their competitors who have a 6-12 month shelf life. You check the figures, Nintendo's products don't do 15 million in one year like COD, they do 20m + over 3 or more years.
@Kaze_Memaryu For ANY ONE who has/is getting extra enjoyment from that game because it now features more characters, and /or a character they really like, the game has been enhanced. As for the tracks. Everyone will have an opinion on what they should include. If they included something you like, at the expense of a track many others were hoping for, is that fair? No, but it is a part of gaming we all have to put up with, or find another game to play.
@megamanlink
You maybe shouldn't open a comment with a completely baseless and assumptive claim. That just inspired me to go out of my way to prove you wrong. Which is what handily follows:
You should also do some research before you post, as Ken Levine refuted your post ages ago: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/bioshock-infinite-creative-director-denies-claims-game-cost-200-million-to-produce-and-market/1100-6405761/
You're going by numbers from "unnamed analysts" cited by the New York Times. That might as well be from nobody.
Every other article talks about how well BioShock Infinite sold, but notes that during that fiscal year, Take Two still had some losses overall. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-05-13-bioshock-infinite-hits-3-7-million-boosts-take-two-sales
http://www.vg247.com/2013/07/30/take-two-q1-fy14-bioshock-infinite-moves-over-4-million-units/
Oh, and by all means, give me a list of all the Nintendo games that have sold 20 million copies over 3 years. Note that Wii Sports does not count, but Mario Kart Wii does--and while Mario Kart Wii sold well, you may then need to also explain why Mario Kart 7 and 8 have sold so few in comparison. Because if you're trying to argue that "Nintendo games sell 20 million over three years because Nintendo games," there is more data poking holes in your reasoning.
Eh, going by your current post, you may not be trusted to even look up the information. Here's what the internet has to show:
Super Mario Bros^ (NES) 40 million
Duck Hunt^ (NES) 28 million
Super Mario World^ (SNES) 20 million
Mario Kart Wii^ (Wii) 35.5 million
Wii Sports Resort^ (Wii) 32.5 million
New Super Mario Bros Wii^ (Wii) 28 million
Wii Play (Wii) 28 million
Wii Fit* (Wii) 22 million
Wii Fit Plus (Wii) 21 million
Pokemon Red & Blue (^?) (GB) 23 million
New Super Mario Bros^ (DS) 30.75 million
Nintendogs^ (DS) 24 million
Mario Kart DS (^?) (DS) 23.5 million
Impressive numbers, so I guess you're arguing that Wii Play "holds its value," same with Nintendogs and Wii Fit, right?
Or perhaps, what we're really seeing here is that Nintendo's games do not sell consoles, but that if the console somehow has sales (like the Wii with it's gimmicks) then pack-in Nintendo games (as shown with ^) sell really, really well. Notice the suspicious absence of N64 and GameCube in the 20-million in sales categories? Because I sure did. Notice how many of these games are pack-in titles, or were featured in bundles? Because I sure did.
How many of these games are outselling Call of Duty on an annual basis? Because I don't think any of them are. Sure, Nintendo has a lot of 20-million sellers--but by your argument, it takes them 3 years (at least) to get there, they never do it as quickly as Call of Duty, and almost every game that does feature Call of Duty-level sales is packed with the hardware.
I would also suggest that before you pull the lazy "Wikipedia Fallacy" on this, you actually bother to check on their references for the numbers first.
I'm very happy that NintendoLife made an article about this issue. I too, feel as if I'm being ripped off by the stupid DLC packs. I already pay $60 for the game itself, and now I have to pay EXTRA just to enjoy the game to its fullest?? It's kinda crappy in my opinion. The only DLC I will be buying is the Mario Kart DLC, as it is very well priced and gives you loads of content. Nintendo needs to stop with the micro-transactions and do larger DLC packs like MK8. I think more people would be interested.
@rjejr
I love Planet of the Apes.
I would be less offended by the Mii costume microtransactions if the Megaman, Zelda and Xenoblade outfits could alternatively be unlocked by having the relevant amiibo. Unlocking a Dunban costume for Mii's is exactly the sort of thing I would expect the Shulk Amiibo to offer. A lot of people have forked out wads of cash for these in order to get this sort of content and now they are just going to bypass these for one of their flagship titles?
@AlexSora89
I have 6 Amiibo: Wii Fit Trainer, Samus, Kirby (because Kirby), Shulk, Mega Man, and Sonic.
I had my own goal of getting the "Four Icons" together as a set for myself--Mario, Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man--but refuse to buy Mario until I have Pac-Man.
A friend of mine actually bought me Sonic, and I got lucky in ordering Shulk and Mega Man. The only others I want are Zero Suit Samus (big Metroid fan until they ruined the franchise with Other M and part of Fusion) and Little Mac--and Nintendo has seen fit that I should never be able to get them.
I'm all for collectibles.
My issues with the Amiibo line overall are as follows:
1. There has been the lack of focus or a central concept for them--like the "free new Nintendo Land" concept I've noted.
2. Nintendo thinks customers are buying them for in-game use, and that is not the case.
3. Terrible supply lines and zero communication with fans and consumers.
4. Overly limited runs of too many figures.
5. And the new criticism--that they may end up being used as an excuse to lock away more content on disks a la DLC-on-Disk the way Capcom screwed up a couple years ago.
6. The other new one, too many Amiibos now being planned with extremely vague usages.
7. They need to be more useful without incorporating shady, anti-consumer business practices to fake it.
I'd really like to be a bigger fan of these things (sort of, it's not like I need more things in my life going after my wallet--at some point, I'm going to have to feed my kid), but I have no interest in the hassle that goes into buying them, which Nintendo doesn't seem interested in fixing, and I'd like them to be more useful but not if it means Nintendo just lazily locks away large chunks of a game to do it.
You can click an Amiibo to a RFID reader on a phone and see that they have specific identities encoded in them. Each one is unique.
Frankly, this is what I think would sell these things:
1. Amiibo connected to a Wii U or 3DS auto-trigger a download of extra content from the eShop.
2. A new Nintendo Land style game that is a free download but which unlocks games, events, and elements by connecting Amiibo.
3. New Smash Bros characters should be downloaded to the console with the new Amiibos. If you want a Lucas Amiibo, then he should download when the Amiibo is connected.
4. Make more of all of them.
These seem like obvious uses to me.
@shigulicious Mario Kart 8 and Hyrule Warriors has some of the best DLC value that I've seen. That's good stuff right there and fully support it. Everything else mentioned on here, meh.
Agreed!
@Captain_Gonru
I got the Epic Mickey collector's edition on clearance at Best Buy. Target's clearance program has no real rhyme or reason to it. It's evidently pretty common for items to be clearance-priced, and then appear on shelves again later for full price.
Probably my most bizarre purchase was Punch-Out for the Wii.
I saw a bunch of boxed Punch-Out games packed with a Nunchuck clearance-priced for $35 (down from $60, I think). I turned around, and regular Punch-Out without the nunchuck was still $50. "Maybe I'll finally understand how to play Punch-Out and I can always use more nunchucks," went my thinking. So I bought Punch-Out with extra stuff for less than Punch-Out by itself.
I don't mind dlc if it's done like mk8 or the harley Quinn stuff in arkham City but too many games seem to rely on it for profit.
F2p is a tricky one Id hate to see animal crossing be relegated in the eyes of the public to something akin to the simpsons tapped out,games like that shouldn't be competition animal crossing should always be ABOVE those kind of games.having said that I haven't minded what it's been used for so far since its been. Pokemon spinoffs I don't bother with ,a new ip designed for it (rustys baseball) or a 2nd chance for a series that probably wouldn't have got one otherwise (steel diver).
All I have to say is please don't pull crap like destiny on us...
@Captain_Gonru
I didn't think the Club Nintendo fiasco was relevant here.
I want to clarify my point on the MSRP thing because I think we've gone well off-track of what my original point was.
I'm not arguing that game prices don't drop when sales drop--that's obvious. Perhaps I should have simplified this by noting that, Nintendo is the only company that doesn't seem to do this. Sales drop, but they keep the prices high anyway. I think Smash or GTA are bad examples--they will always sell as they will always draw in some late adopters.
BioShock Infinite is an industry darling if ever there was one, it sold well, and it sold fast, but dropped fairly quickly. BioShock is not a title that has an enduring element--in that sense, it is not regularly played online, or by groups of people, etc, who keep the demand steady--like Call of Duty, Smash Bros, etc. Most games that hold value do it, no because of a "quality" issue (as has been the rallying cry of why Nintendo keeps prices high), but because there is a strong community around the game. As GTA has grown into online spaces, it's community has only gotten stronger, so these will continue to sell.
Nintendo, however, maintains high MSRPs (individual retailer clearance prices occur outside of this) even on titles that don't sell or aren't selling--like the aforementioned black sheep, Other M. Which can still be found in some retail places for it's full MSRP.
That was the only point I ever had on this--that Nintendo maintains higher MSRPs for longer, regardless of game sales. If I could deliver my comments in a more pithy manner, this might not get as complicated as it tends to!
It's not about quality, and I think when that stuff got into the conversation, it muddied the whole focus. If high prices at retail equal quality, then logically, Call of Duty is equal to Smash Bros, and I sincerely doubt any core Nintendo fan would be happy with that analogy. I actually think it probably has some accuracy to it.
@Lizuka I don't think it would have fit at the end of the game tho all those hours as batman then to end it like that would have seemed weird to me. I found the maps n characters a bit more offensive to be honest not that I didn't enjoy them when I bought it later on but they were advertising it the week the game got released ,personally I'd prefer to pay for a short story based thing like that since it followed on from a game I enjoyed a lot than just a few extra maps n such that had no real effect or relation to the main game itself but to each their own.
I personally hate DLC especially when it takes away part of the game.
Howerever DLC for additional costumes or to make the game a bit easier I don't mind. If you want to look pretty or the game is too hard you may buy yourself a way out.
But I can't stand that you buy half of a game for the full price and have to pay the other half extra.
@Jazzer94 well they aren't that quick with DLC either
@Quorthon
No actually I didn't. I work in that field and have worked in both financial and development. The cost were actually real and the research is something I am actual privy to because of investments. I only commented on your statement because I have worked in many fields of gaming to get where I am. My statement (non-argument) stands true even by your research that it (Nintendo games) held its value because they are long earners and not because of some status (Yes even Wii Play). For you comprehend how it works in the industry, you first have to have some knowledge of how much it cost to develop a triple A game, that's also cross platform and how much it cost to market it. Triple A games (especially at that time) were very expensive to make (as to reason why so many studios went belly up).
Just to give you an example, at microsoft studio's in the UK, we had a budget of over $70m+ dollars to deliver one of the fable games. That was a triple A game on a single platform and it sold over 4m units. The problem is, it needed to sell a minimum of 5million units plus to be an internal success in regards to the money spent (or else you are just breaking even). The only reason why a sequel can be made under these circumstances, are that there is effectively 4 million+ users to service, in which case if the next game can be made much cheaper but deliver the same sales, then the whole thing becomes cost effective. This was also the case with Bioshock Infinite, which is why the Newspaper didn't have to print a retraction. Secondly a newspaper using a no name analyst (really!!), an opportunist I can understand (Pachter anyone) because then it would be about the share price, in which case they would attack the publisher as a whole. Last but not least, you've gone off on a tangent about pack in games being the reason of unit sales. The part of the picture you are not taking in to consideration or maybe not privy to (unless you have access to analytical reports from sources like DFC Intelligence) is the duration of unit sales which also accounts for pack ins. Not only does one of my businesses subscribe to these report, but so do major retailers and other analyst. If Nintendo were artificially keeping the gaming price a specific value and retail could not sell the game at that value, they would not stock it or would reduce the price to get rid of stock. So again nothing you have pointed out made any sense. Im not here to argue with you about information I know you are not privy too, I was just letting you know that some (and i mean just some) of your examples were not true.
@Captain_Gonru - "full of rage at the loss of my save game data during my 3DS to N3DS transfer"
Seriously? But you were all happy zen the other day at the prospect of your new 3DS. Life isn't fair, is it?
@megamanlink
I didn't go "off on a tangent," I targeted your point that "Nintendo games sell 20 million over three years" as if they do that because they hold value, when the reasons those games have sold those numbers are in large part due to pack-in status on very popular platforms, and particularly for the Wii, the whole fad nature of the whole thing.
I am also highly skeptical of you being "in the industry," as that seems to be turning into a common "well this is why you should listen to me" way of talking on here. I do my best to shy away from that, and when mentioning my "in the industry" bits, it is only for anecdotal reasons backing a personal view. Call me the skeptic, if you will (a word I love anyway), but all of a sudden it feels like there are a few too many "industry people" posting here to be believable. For one thing, I don't consider myself "in" so much as a struggling outlier. The only major company I worked for was Activision--and anyone can do the job I did.
By all means, let's stop dragging this on--I clarified my whole "maintain higher MSRP" point a few minutes ago when I realized that it had skewed into some distracting directions.
For note, I don't disagree that there is a budgeting, cost, and reach problem with modern gaming. I have long used the line "we have Hollywood budgets without the Hollywood audience" as a note on that problem.
Also, as a final point, let's not forget Nintendo being taken to task in the 90's for Price Fixing and anti-trust activities: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/11/business/nintendo-to-pay-25-million-in-rebates-on-price-fixing.html
@Captain_Gonru
HA! Then by all means, vent. I'm also annoyed by their "we're closing Club Nintendo" followed by "no plan at all how to replace it right now" course of action.
But I also try to shoehorn in a criticism in way too many places--mostly to talk about how much Other M sucks. Your thought about why Other M's MSRP has stayed so high for long is perfectly valid.
I must have worked criticism of that game into half my Club Nintendo surveys.
i dont think the dlc character pricing is bad at all the costumes are pretty cheap too really although i would never buy them if they didnt hit me right in the core of my megaman fandom but i guess it gives me a reason to try out a mii fighter I had no intrest before but if it looks like im playing as X...
The question here is VALUE FOR MONEY. To spend your hard earned money on extra downloaded content I guess depends on if it is good value to you.
If the future Nintendo games are trimmed down in size and not price, so that extra content can be added via a plastic toy, then I won't buy that game.
Having said that to many people do not value money and downloading can become addictive......... something Nintendo would hope for. It happens with the smartphone games.
I'm so glad this article was made. It points out the hypocrisy of many people who used to do nothing but slam every other company for having DLC like this. Sega making mobile games? Oh no! They're dead, what an awful decision! Nintendo making mobile games? Oh what a good idea, they will certainly succeed.
Capcom/Ea/Evolve/NetherRealms/other 3rd party offer cosmetic DLC
Yuck! They're nickle and diming us! Down with 3rd parties! No more DLC!
Nintendo offers a bunch of costumes for Mii fighters
Yay! I'm going to buy it, after all it's only cosmetic. Don't like it, don't buy it. It's not bad at all!
Any other company does dree to play with microtransactions
I'd never play that! It's just awful and makes you pay money
Nintendo does it
Oh it's okay because you don't HAVE to pay money. (even though games like candy crush or angry bird can be played with no money, yet we used to see non stop hatred from us nintendo "fans" for it)
Really, all these changes and DLC aren't inherently bad, but it sure is interesting to see us, as a fanbase, so readily accepting of it when just a year ago we were writing essays on how nintendo would never do free to play or mobile games and that anyone who does is awful.
Perhaps there's truth to that mocked saying "It's okay when Nintendo does it"
Here we go again, it could be one cent for all I care, it's still disk-locked content that's locked behind a paywall, that's the kind of ham Capcom pulled with SFxT and everyone was mad about it and now Nintendo does an even worse version of it since you require a hard-to-get figurine and everyone is just willy nilly praising them for it, the hell?
$35 to get all the content that's already in the disk is a bit, I dunno, some of the worst, most disgusting DLC of all time.
@akaDv8R That makes no difference. If people wanna be delusional and claim that the DLC characters mean anything, I'll gladly leave them to their delusions. That doesn't make it true. They're still pointless until there's something mechanics-wise that makes them different from the rest of the drivers, which there isn't. A rip-off, albeit a popular one.
@Captain_Gonru - All the cool kids have stopped playing Shuffle and have moved on to Rumble World so don't worry about that one.
I wonder how many F2P games Nitnedo can get on the 3DS at once? These 2, Rusty's Baseball, that submarine game, the game that I'm sure only coincidentally sounds like TitanFall.
@Operative Your mistake is assuming all those companies are doing the exact same thing in the exact same way. There's a difference between DLC done right and DLC done poorly.
If there was more DLC out there like Mario Kart 8's new cups, Mario Golf World Tour or for non-Nintendo games Guild Wars 1's expansions(or expansions in general like Civ IV beyond the sword) that add to what's already a full experience the perception of DLC in general would be a lot better.
"Capcom/Ea/Evolve/NetherRealms/other 3rd party" are some of the companies that have ruined the image of DLC. It was never Nintendo themselves that made their forary into DLC seen as negative(most of them are positive so far). It was the companies that have been making the practice look bad for the last decade that made people wary when Nintendo first announced DLC.
The same exists in the F2P games compare EA to Nintendo's F2P. While Pokémon Shuffle's microtransactions aren't "DLC done right" it and their other F2P(Rusty's Real Deal Baseball, Steel Diver:Subwars) is infinitely more user friendly than EA's Dungeon Keeper.
If it's "Ok when Nintendo do it" then Nintendo is probably doing the same thing a lot more agreeably than most of the other companies do.
@Dr_Lugae and Nintendo has done DLC right and wrong. And yet even with their "wrong" DLC people are so quick to shower praise on Nintendo. Why are costumes for Evolve universally hated but for whatever reason it's okay when it's in smash brother? Just because Nintendo started off doing DLC in a good way doesn't mean they're exempt from criticism when they cross the line
@Captain_Gonru - So stuff you already paid REAL currency for you can't simply redownload? That sucks. And that's not a flippant, "that sucks", that's a real, "that sucks". I thought NNID had us covered for this stuff?
Man, good luck w/ all of that, sincerely.
@Operative
Just compare them:
Smash Bros WiiU/3DS already has loads of costumes for the Mii characters and the regular characters have alts for free in the main game Evolve doesn't have any alts for the hunters or monsters in the main game.
Smash Bros DLC costumes are at a very reasonable price(less than £1 each) and Evolve's are £4 for each hunter's alt costume and £5.79 for an alt colour scheme(tinted one colour) for 3 monsters.
I'm not even interested in any of the Smash Bros costumes, the game already gives you plenty to unlock for free, but the prices are much more reasonable than Evolve's. To put it in perspective Mewtwo in Smash Bros U(who will likely come with 8 alternate colour schemes) costs less than an alt costume DLC for a single character in evolve or three monster colour schemes.
Evolve was made fun of because its DLC pricing is outrageous considering what is(or moreso what isn't) included in the original purchase and the price of the DLC compared to what you get. Just because they're both offering DLC costumes doesn't mean they're both bad, Evolve's would be fine if the prices were more comparable to Smash Bros(though Smash Bros would be complained about regardless of the price simply because it's Nintendo having DLC).
@Dr_Lugae
"If it's "Ok when Nintendo do it" then Nintendo is probably doing the same thing a lot more agreeably than most of the other companies do."
Surely you can't be denying that Nintendo fans have a tendency to forgive the company for behavior they criticize for others in the industry? That not only happens, it happens quite frequently, and this site's comments section is like an almanac of this behavior.
There is very much a real mentality of "Nintendo did it, so it's okay." I don't want to call out any names, but there are people here who have literally been apologetic for absolutely everything Nintendo has done lately, from creating an unfair environment to control YouTubers to gimping a competitive shooter so that it can no longer be competitive to failing to restock products or address consumer concerns to being apologetic for anything Nintendo has done with F2P, no matter how shaky or questionable.
Shall we do a list of questionable Nintendo behavior?
How about price fixing? http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/11/business/nintendo-to-pay-25-million-in-rebates-on-price-fixing.html
Patent infringement? http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/13/4100924/nintendo-guilty-of-patent-infringement-3ds-technology
Stabbing Sony in the back? http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2013/07/sony_almost_joined_forces_with_sega_for_the_playstation
Completely controlling 3rd party licensees? http://www.geekcomix.com/vgh/fourth/nesbad.shtml
Throwing Sega under the bus concerning video game violence? http://www.dromble.com/2013/09/07/howard-lincoln-kicking-ass-before-reggie-came-along/
Baffling and restrictive censorship policies? http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-s-draconian-censorship-a-look-back-at-the-pussyfication-of-the-nes-52596.phtml
And of course, the recent fan reversal of opinion when Nintendo super changed their stance on mobile gaming: http://www.engadget.com/2015/03/17/nintendo-mobile-iwata/
@Captain_Gonru
This is why Nintendo needs to fix their terrible, terrible user account system. It's terrible because it doesn't exist.
@Kaze_Memaryu I assume you understand the concept of opinions? Yes, good. What you have said is your opinion, it does not make it true. It is only correct for you. Or does your opinion matter more than other people's? Seriously, drop it. You don't like the DLC, but you play it, and are going to play the next lot.
@akaDv8R I knew you're gonna try to cop-out, but you're wrong. There's no opinion to this. It's a FACT that the DLC characters play exactly the same as already existing characters, no "opinions" on that. The stats, the controls, and the very mechanics are straight-up identical, and that's all I'm talking about, in case you didn't notice. How people perceive their appearance is of no significance in terms of gameplay, and I sure as hell don't give a damn, anyway.
@DiscoGentleman Not buying it but still not making your voice heard by complaining means that Nintendo don't even know your opinion.
@CapeSmash
@Kaze_Memaryu "It's a FACT that the DLC characters play exactly the same as already existing characters"
Are you saying they are clones? Or are you saying they're identical to their appearance in the previous games?
@CapeSmash
Seriously. We could cure a beached whale with this article and some of the comments.
@Kaze_Memaryu Grow up, get a life, and stop being the definition of an IDIOT, if that is possible.
@MadAdam81 MK8 DLC is fine and all, but they are moving away from that and are now looking to charge you a $1 per costume item in Smash. You won't see anything like MK8's value again. They now know they can nickel and dime you, since you aren't mad about their terrible DLC and microtransactions from more recent titles.
@Captain_Gonru
It's my understanding that part of the partnership with DeNA is so that Nintendo may also be fixing their user account issues--which I would hope is just an extension of whatever replaces Club Nintendo. Too late to help you, but hopefully a step in the right direction.
With the account-based system on PSN, was able to "purchase" one of my PSN+ games on my phone today, and have it download to my resting PS4 while I was at work. Downloading cross-platform/crossbuy titles is as easy as opening the shop on those different platform and clicking "download" and a bunch of these games auto-save backups to Sony's amorphous "cloud."
@XCWarrior Mario Kart 8 DLC is the only DLC I have bought on Wii U aside from some extra pinball tables. I haven't even bought Hyrule Warriors DLC as a few extra characters don't interest me, there needs to be as many new levels as Mario Kart 8 DLC packs.
Microtransactions have never bothered me, I have only ever spent a couple of dollars twice on free to play games that I have spent hundreds of hours playing, I am very good at ignoring them and will stop playing a game that gets the balance wrong.
Nintendo need to balance any microtransactions so people can't actually spend more than $100 total in a game.
@CapeSmash By definition, those would be clones. Different appearance, identical handling.
I honestly feel Rumble World is a step in the right direction both for gameplay and sales. It's the first time I've bought gems in a year for any game, and generally does well at feeling fair. It doesn't try to cheat you like the other Freemiums. Of course though, making players pay gems for slots to keep toy pokemon isn't just cheap, it's stupid. The game is centered around collecting, players shouldn't view a new toy as a chore, or a burden to release. It should always be positive. It's like if your wii mote shocked you anytime you got too many coins in Super Mario, it's just silly and works against the core experience.
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