@NEStalgia No, I know what you mean with forward compatibility, so no confusion there on my part at all.
Still think it's going to hamper/drag down any new console, though.
EDIT:
And besides, both forward and backward compatibility only have one meaning, so how anyone could confuse or misunderstand those, is beyond me.
@ThanosReXXX I think the big difference in our thinking on the potential of that is you believe it would hamper the new console. I'm quite positive that model wouldn't. PC is always a generation (or more) ahead of console, so we can see what the software capabilities would be for Scarlett on current PC. And we already know those games already run however they run on X. PC games will continue enhancing of course. Remember, with that model, if they're moving to the continuous cycle, we're not talking about hanging onto X for 7-10 years. We're talking about hanging onto it for 2, or maaaaaybe 3. For games that are already in development for PC currently. Yeah, X could run those fine. The model timeline/roadmap (if it were to theoretically work this way) would be:
Q4 2018-Q4 2019: X1 + X1S + X1X (Best visuals/performance)
Q1 2020-Q4 2022: Drop X1/X1S, Introduce XBox Infinite (Best performance/visuals, support "Play Anywhere on X1X and PC (specifications and performance vary) as well"
Q1 2022-Q2 2024 Introduce XI Plus (Best performance/visuals, remove "Play Anywhere" support for X1X, support "Play Anywhere" on XI and PC)
Q3 2024-Q4 2027 Introduce XBox Infinite Z (Best performance/visuals, remove "Play Anywhere" support for XBox Infinite (2020), support "Play Anywhere" on XBox Infinite Ultra and Windows 11 PCs.)
Regardless of if the 1X is part of that ecosystem or not, I'm fairly convinced that at minimum, starting with Scarlett that's the kind of roadmap they're going to have going forward, whether or not it includes X. It just makes the most sense for them to do that with their position and role in the console space. Meanwhile PS5 will try the 7 year console cycle again, but will eventually cave to copy. And Nintendo will make a plastic accordion with an 8" screen that plays video games where the inputs come from you playing sea shanties, because Nintendo. There will be a limited Tingle edition at launch.
etc. Basically, hardware as a service..... For better or worse
@BlueOcean Definitely. Gameplay is certainly a lot more sophisticated in RDR2 and the world isn't the same 5 activities copy and pasted all over the map. But when I look at the streets and coaches I keep thinking Syndicate.
@NEStalgia But it would hold the newer console down. I don't understand why you don't see that, seeing as it is crystal clear to me. I think that your mistake is that you're doing a 1:1 comparison to PC's.
It is true, obviously, that consoles are getting closer and closer to being a PC in a custom box, but there's still quite a few custom components in there, and as previously discussed, consoles will always be programmed far closer to the metal, so in that respect, they're also not directly comparable to PC's.
Now. what I meant with forward compatibility holding down the newer console, is that I see this more or less forcing developers to take into account, that the newer games must also be able to run on the older system, and as such, they could NEVER maximize the potential of these newer games, much less the newer hardware. The PC model, where you have a mid range vs a high end gaming rig, doesn't apply here at ALL.
And I'd like to replace your "incremental" with "revisional", which would bring it back to the normal state of affairs that was, and which should have been. The original Xbox One should never have been, and it's even kind of questionable if the S should have been a thing either, because the X is everything that the Xbox One should have been in the first place.
So, I'm not against improvements during generations, but it would be better if it would just consist of a trajectory such as has happened with the previous gen consoles, where both Sony and Microsoft simply released several improved models of the original PS3 & Xbox 360.
I don't think incremental is either a given, or a necessity, if the going back to the drawing board behavior on Xbox One is anything to go by. They'd better release the "X" version of Scarlett right out of the gates, instead of first letting millions of people buy a Scarlett S, only to find that there's going to be a far more improved model, that will make their console look rather meh in comparison...
The Play Anywhere thing can easily be explained away, without it ever having to impact the console department in and of itself, or having Microsoft shift the Xbox division into a carbon copy of their Surface department. Seeing as we're now already able to play Xbox games on PC, they can just further that development into other devices, so that in the next generation, or after 2020, we will be able to play (stream) Windows 10 versions of Xbox games on our smart devices. And then simply extend that catalog, instead of sticking to the (in comparison with the Xbox) only handful of titles that are available for Windows 10 now.
@ThanosReXXX Again that's what I'm saying is the difference in our conclusions, your'e very convinced that it would hold back the new console, while I don't think it would.
You're thinking console vs. PC at a hardware level, but you need to consider the actual software design. "The PC model, where you have a mid range vs a high end gaming rig, doesn't apply here at ALL."
Yes, it does. The games are designed for PC in the majority of cases. Console ports are ports of PC games. Not for Sony exclusives, but definitely for Microsoft exclusives and nearly all 3rd party (some Japan studios excluded.) The game design, engine, everything has already been designed for that very "low, mid, high" range. It's not a separate game made for console, it's just optimization for a specific spec. That was why the industry wanted the move to x86 in console to begin with, so they could roll it into their design environments as more or less unified. When you look at RDR2, you're looking at a PC game. Designed arouThey alnd Steam and it's various form factors. so customized a port tuned for PS and XBox models. Same with Assassin's Creed, and even Horizon 4, Motorsport 7, Crackdown 3. These are all PC games first and foremost in design, and the designs have already been designed to scale to different hardware. The slowest PC that they spec is what limits the game's overall design. But, also, that's not stopping them from scaling up to take full advantage of SLI GTX titans on a dual i7. Adding two or 3 XBox models so long as they fit into the performance specs of the PCs they're targeting is a trivial expense to add compared to the dozens of video cards, sound cards, motherboard sets etc that must be tested for PC. TL;DR; There's really no way the different XBoxes would limit software design, only how software runs on that hardware. Not within the scope of time each "model" would be supported.
But again, for this debate, let's remove the X, because I think adding X, and that generation is confusing the conversation. We'll start with Scarlett. Let's assume Scarlett is the starting point of this new product model (and it probably is. The X thing may happen, but I think we can more clearly discuss this if we presume it won't.)
My prediction could be wrong here, as always, it's a prediction and an analysis from an armchair, but I'm going to say that I do absolutely believe MS does not intend to do "console generations" starting with Scarlett. There's little incentive to do hardware + revision and tons and tons of benefit in multiple directions (for them) to move it to the iterative approach. And MS has a long history of trying to shake up the console model (for better or worse). It's Sony that stays entrenched in the status quo. I'll certainly admit I'm wrong, possibly with great relief, if I'm wrong. But I (possibly unfortunately) do believe that's the future model of XBox. The bi-annual (ish) iterative cycle. I'm 50/50 on the whole X thing. But Scarlett and beyond? I'm absolutely counting on the iterative cycle indefinitely. Every 2-3 E3s there will be a new hardware model perpetually after that. They got a taste of Hardware as a Service. Both MS and Sony were toying with that idea before it was proven. Now it was proven as a "mid gen refresh". They proved it's viable. They'll stick with it and see how far they can push it, and that both helps them sell more hardware like the phone/tablet/laptop/video card model, and helps the industry. This model would be developer (publisher) friendly. The industry hates console cycles. Late console means weak hardware to worry about well below PC specs they want to support. Early console means small install base. Each cycle means fragmenting the install bases. PC just perpetually moves forward. Fell behind? Too bad, keep up, buy more stuff. But that's efficient for publishers. Phase 1 for Ubi/EA/Acti was make consoles x86 compatible PC clones. Step 2 is make the upgrade process similar. That removes a lot of uncertainty from their financials. And XBox is interested in both being the platform most accessible for publishers/studios, and unifying their PC business. It's a perfect fit.
I do agree the OG should never have been. And S was questionable with X coming out afterward.
I totally agree with you about "release Scarlett X" first. But if I'm right, that's not happening. X comes out 2 years later. Followed by X2 2 years after that. Then X3 2-3 years after that, etc. Got Surface Pro 3? Surface Pro 4 is out, upgrade today! Got a Galaxy S7? Galaxy S8 is out next month! iPhone X? this year it's the iPhone XS! Don't fall behind! Such is current tech hardware. That's a juicy opportunity to miss in favor of 1990's console generation business models. Oh they'll go on about Scarlett being revolutionary and the most powerful. Then they'll do it again for Scarlett X 2-3 years later.
Summarizing, from my own perspective, no multiple models doesn't impact game design since it's already impacted by PC, and ultimately helps the publishers by ending the idea of console cycles. Ignoring X, I think it's near certain they're going to do the iterative perpetual hardware cycle starting with Scarlett if not with X, and that like with computers and phones, you'll be reminded bi-annually that you now have the obsolete model and need to keep up and start over. It's a powerful motivator.
I don't like it, you don't like it, but I strongly believe that's the future of XBox (and Playstation when they inevitably copy the model which they publicly toyed with themselves a few years back.)
Would it benefit MS? Yes.
Would it benefit major publishers? Absolutely.
Would it benefit consumers? Potentially but probably not.
Would it extract more money from consumers while yielding more profitability for MS and publishers? Yup.
Sounds like a solid business plan.
OTOH it could end up being a good value, depending on its implementation depending on how longterm the longterm support is by not forcing upgrades on hardware as often if, for example, you don't care about 4k, or 8k, or whatever.
I just don't see them doing the 6-8 year console cycle ever again. And the "mid gen refresh X model" doesn't solve core industry desires that would be solved with the iterative model in the games as a service era.
None of that factors in the streaming effect however. I'm not convinced that's going to take off right now, but we know publishers are going to try, and it will influence the industry in some unknown way.
Edit: Between you, me, Ryu, Ralek none of us know how to have short conversations without wall amplifiers
@NEStalgia Huh? Can ya'll at me if ya'll are going to talk smack? gives side eye
Also I am not PC master race (I'm only running 1 GTX980ti which means I'm a dinosaur to those people). I am a multisystem gamer. Says it in my profile pokes out tongue I just don't set my stuff on fire, like some people. And I'm an occasional guest for two reasons. A) I spend less time on nintendolife right now in general. B) Xbox one got delegated to my tertiary system as the system with the most fighting games get puts as my secondary (since I know Nintendo will never win that match) and this gen that is PS4. The only reason I bought a 360 was VF5 online which was the best version at the time. I would have been way more active had I joined during the 360s hey day. But that would have been full of ME rants and I know nobody wants me to kick that horse.
Also to my defense I text wall in part because I peck on my answer in between work. I rarely get online when at home...usually studying.
And whatever my playtime is for AC:Sparta is what I put in for the xbox... pretty much.. I really have not used it much. I dont know where the PS4 is (box wise that is)...which is sad as I've bought like 5 games for it this year.
Taiko is good for the soul, Hoisa!
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Everything will still be active, it's just that the Forzathon events of Horizon 3 are ending [I think] now that Horizon 4 is out. Both barn finds have been merged into the same challenge, and unless they get added without needing the Forzathon challenges, they will have gone for good - thus meaning true 100% in-game completion is impossible.
Between you, me, Ryu, Ralek none of us know how to have short conversations without wall amplifiers
Haha, yeah, indeed. I'm literally afraid of nothing or no one, but of late, I've almost come close to dreading going to Nintendo Life, fearing that one of those notifications at the top right corner of the page is going to say "NEStalgia mentioned you in the Xbox One/Xbox 360 thread"...
Well, I'm going to try to stay under that 10 pages that you mentioned me usually doing...
You do know that I'm a sales & marketing professional, right?
Most of what you propose, makes no sense from that point of view, not because I want to be the only one that's right, or because I want to dismiss what you say "because reasons", but because I really genuinely do believe that, looking at it from the aforementioned point of view, so it really isn't all that viable to me at all.
Yes, I mentioned PC hardware, but obviously what I meant by that, is the difference in architecture. Where in PC's a multitude of architectures and/or hardware is entirely acceptable and has been for decades already, it is still pretty new ground in consoles. The current iterative models do nothing to change that fact.
On a side note: change "games are made for PC" to "games are made on PC's", and I'll completely agree with you. PC workstations have always been the tool to get games onto consoles, so nothing really new or exciting has happened in that regard, so we can dismiss that point, other than making the factual observation that consoles themselves have grown closer to PC's, but I've already mentioned that previously.
And you REALLY do need to heed Phil Spencer's words more. He doesn't mince words, so there can be no other interpretation of them, than the literal meaning of what he says.
He has literally said that there will be no more stop-gap models, and that dedicated console fans need not fear because, and I quote: "the next Xbox console is going to be the benchmark in console gaming".
A benchmark denotes performance/power, unlike a standard, which could basically be used as a label to slap onto anything that a company considers new, innovative and/or future proof.
Besides that, Phil also literally stated that traditional console gamers need not fear, and that they would most definitely be catered to with the next Xbox. Now, that part doesn't necessarily disqualify the next Xbox being another iterative model, but I still have my doubts, based upon all that has happened so far, and based upon what has been said.
Contrary to popular belief, there are actually quite a lot of people, that DON'T like the PS4 Pro or the Xbox One X, or to put it more correctly: the reason for their existence and how they came to be, because they truly DO feel like stop-gap systems, that put a knife in the back of a hell of a whole lot of people, that were early adopters of the base models of both consoles. So, I don't think that there's going to be all that many people that are going to fall for similar shenanigans again in the coming generation.
And things and/or methods can most definitely be profitable and good for companies, but the most important thing to remember is that the target audience actually has the power to either accept that, or burn that to the ground. Just look at the launch of the Xbox One...
Companies NEED target audiences (dòh), otherwise, all those positive outcomes you mentioned won't ever occur, so they can only go so far into alienating their respective audiences, and as such, I honestly don't know if the whole S and X trajectory is going to be repeated in the next generation, and more importantly, if it actually SHOULD, which to me is a definite no.
In the unlikely event that I'm somehow completely wrong, I'm not going to admit that, and will instead apply for a job at Microsoft's Xbox marketing department, because they would be doing something horribly wrong, and would have apparently forgotten all the mistakes they've already made so far...
In closing, I would like to invite you to watch this video. It's factual, which the guy who makes them is known for, and more importantly: even though he also agrees with some of what you said, he mostly agrees with me... (heheheh)
But in all seriousness: it's a good video, and he sums up everything pretty nicely, concerning the next console and the online and Play Anywhere service, so it's well worth 9 minutes of every Xbox supporter's time.
Well, that's it from me, concerning this topic. The rest of the world is all rolled up into the whole US bomb letter affair and Red Dead Redemption 2 anyway, so we need to move on to stuff that might incite a few less text walls...
Project xCloud Officially Revealed For Xbox One | Console Quality Gaming On Any Device
@DarthNocturnal You got excited about the prospect of seeing an ice cream van? The last time that happened to me, was probably when I was 10...
It might look entertaining or funny, but performance-wise, it would of course be an absolute abomination to use in a racing game, unless they'd give it some otherworldly powers, to turbo-charge it into being a good competitor for ACTUAL race cars...
Now that's something I've never heard my ex say...
@Grumblevolcano I positively HATE these timed events with exclusive content, and I also don't like games more or less pushing me/tempting me to do stuff, especially if it can only be done in x amount of time.
As if I don't already have enough on my plate with life, work, and the massive back log in games that I have.
But I guess I'll give it a go regardless. I'm hoping that some YouTuber makes a video about it, so I can just drive to it and pick it up, instead of having to search for it for hours on end...
I couldn't see any achievements on the achievement page past 7th December (it's been like this for the past month, maybe longer) so I figured maybe Forzathon for FH3 ended on 7th December.
@DarthNocturnal Okay, you got me there. And truth be told, previous outings of both Forza Horizon and Forza Motorsport games have had some bonus vehicles that would in real life never even come close to qualifying as a serious option for a contender in a race with high end sports cars and muscle cars...
I mean, come on:
And even some ATV's and pickups wouldn't be much use in real life races:
But then again: I guess that's exactly the fun part of these games. And perhaps for some people, also learning about the existence of some of these weird cars in the first place...
@thanosrexxx well I won't fully reply in details because then we'll keep the text wall going. I'll just say I strongly disagree with your disagreement. Yeah yeah, I know you're an S&M professional, bound by the creed, tied up in the examples, whipped into the status quo. It's a leathery topic. But this is less of an S&M topic and more of a business model/platform life cycle thing.
As a consumer I'd love for them to say "here's your new xbox for the next 6-7 years." I also know that's unlikely to happen, because everything about the industry model, the needs/wishes of the publishers and industry partners including retail, the trajectory of software deployment, etc. etc. is screaming to end the idea of console generations. Every industry voice that has a voice wants to leave that model behind, from Gamestop to EA to Walmart and Amazon to Ubisoft. None of those Phil quotes negate that, they sound like basic PR fluffery that could mean anything in hindsight and still be true. If we get "one new XBox for 6-7 years" I'll be a happy bunny. I'm just not, even slightly, anticipating that. There's just no reason to expect that's how this goes, regardless of what they may make it appear to be at launch.
RDR2 runs amazing on 1X! Great game so far. The hype is overblown by 10x but I expected that. With unreasonable expectations from hype in check, it's excellent. So far, a really well done solid game. If I have one complaint it's some weird control layouts....downright bad in ways. B to reload. It has several control layouts....it includes "FPS Standard"......and it's still B to reload. Every FPS I can think of....CoD, FarCry, Wildlands, Division, Battlefield, Destiny all use X. Halo doesn't by default, but MCC has a "FPS Standard" control option.......that puts it on X to match Battlefield and CoD. I'm not sure what Rockstar was playing that led them to believe that's anything like an FPS setup. Other questionable button placements are slightly off, but the real annoyance is the controls are way more complex than they ought to be for the game. Too many nested "press this for this, hold it for something else, but if you're standing in front of a horse, it's a different menu. Press X to search, but Y to loot bodies, even though it's a similar activity...One tutorial personifies it when you drop your gun and hat and it tells you to hit Y to pick up your gun, but press-and-hold X to pick up your hat. pressing one button and holding a different button to perform the same action of picking something up is pretty intuitive. Or the odd dialog system of targeting a character with LT to pop up dialog options in the bottom right corner....which only works at specific times, the rest of the time LT draws your weapon and aims it so there's that moment of "I'm either going to talk to my friend, or point a gun at his head.....we'll find out which when I press the trigger" Wildlands has excessively complex controls with multiple functions embedded on each button, but it's very clear in that game you're playing a tactical PC shooter and that was the only way to shoehorn all the keyboard driven functionality onto 16 buttons. RDR2 throws in layered buttons but so much of it isn't core functionality and feels unnecessary. It keep thinking of "Press F to pay respects".
It doesn't detract from an otherwise well thought of game, it's still great so far. But I hate when I have to fight controls, or worse. play by instrument and watch the text prompts for what buttons to hit where rather than play intuitively. It breaks the immersion, which is the strong point of RDR2 (it sure as heck aint the CoD-like shooting. )
I’m not loving the controls either (talking rdr2 still) but I kind of expected it as it’s pretty much the norm for me with R* games. As much as I loved the original RDR I remember trying to navigate through doorways could be a mission unto itself!
To be fair to reviewers (for once) I’ve seen it mentioned in a few reviews which is a novel/welcome change as let’s face it, the shooting has been ‘average-at-best’ since they first started doing GTA in 3D yet they’ve always seemingly gotten a free pass?
In no ways does it ruin the experience, just one of those little niggles that you notice more than you should - sure after 30-odd hours i’ll get used to it/not notice anymore!
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