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Topic: What game do you think Retro Studios is working on?

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Killer7IsDead

at this point WHO THE HECK KNOWS???
Hopefully a 2.5D HD Metroid5

Killer7IsDead

roy130390

@Bolt_Strike I told you that there are man y platformers with more than one path to complete an area. Not every game forces you to follow the same route. Pretty much every metroidvania game offers you different connections between levels so that you don't have to follow the same route and so that you have other paths to explore when you revisit it. Not only 3d games offer a functional sandbox and it's not innovative or new, in fact, it's fairly common.

Snake pass does offer a new type of gameplay, but it certainly isn't the most fluid game. I can't guarantee this, but most people that enjoy 2D platformers like a gameplay that feels agile. Snake Pass has it's challenge in making you feel like a snake which personally I don't care about. There's also no incentive (at least not explained at the beginning) in collecting coins and blue spirits. It may be new, but as I told you, I don't find it fun.

"Linear platformers have always forced you to complete levels in a specific order for most if not all of the game."

Megaman (insert whatever number) says hi. Sure, you can make boss fights easier by going in a certain order, but they don't force you at all. The first stage and the last stage do have an order though, just as with any 3D sandbox game. Funny because megaman games are the most linear in terms of stage design since the path is pretty much one, but as you said they don't have to offer everything to be great and they do offer that freedom for most of the game.

Ok, so, tell me what hasn't been reused over and over. Not only that, but what I was pointing out is that Galaxy uses many of the most reused themes in gaming. Desert, haunted place, ice, fire... should I go on? I do like the npcs, they are awesome but I've also seen awesome npcs in 2D games like the entire Shovel Knight character list. Super Metroid, Fusion and Zero mission also come to my mind since they have so many new and old creatures and both are welcome to see. Shantae, Cave Story, Hollow Knight...

"Harmony and logic? Not really. Linear platforming levels tend to be fairly haphazard and not related to any storyline or real world logic. It's just levels for the sake of levels."

Really? the megaman level variety is explained simply because those words are separated and he chases enemies around the globe. Shovel knight has a really nice looking interconected world. Hollow Knight, Xeodrifter, Steam World Dig, Castlevania games... I find logic between most stages simply because when doing these games this is a criticized aspect so they tend to be careful with it. Sure, they can slip one or 2 and not every game will follow this, but there are many that do. Saying "not really" without backup doesn't make a difference.

"Those games still require you to reach the end of the level though. The system I'm proposing does not, you can progress through the game either by reaching the end of the level or by collecting items. To give you a better idea, let's say you have a Mario game where you unlock new levels by collecting Power Stars. You could wander around and explore Power Stars to unlock the next level, but you could also proceed through a linear path and collect a Grand Star at the end of the level worth 5 Power Stars. So if you want to play it like a linear platformer you could simply get to the end and collect the Grand Star and unlock the next level, or you could explore the level and collect the regular Power Stars, or anything in between depending on the player preference. The genre has never really done something like that, it's either been one or the other."

I suppose that's new, or at least I can't think of a game that let's you do that. Is it as great as a feature as you think? Well, personally I prefer to find different stages and levels through exploration and to have the option to find a certain route without collecting anything. I don't think it would be anything groundbreaking to see in these kind of games, but that's just my opinion.

"I never said they should. I'm saying they should do more than jumping and attacking, or at least introduce new types of jumps and attacks."

I do see many characters from different 2D platformers that are different and also many that share similar aspects , however you have to see that 2d gaming is more limited in this, like , by a lot and yet many 3d platformers also share similar jumping and attacks.

"FLUDD and the gravity mechanics. FLUDD gave you an unprecedented amount of freedom in how you navigated the level design and let you pull off jumps you couldn't otherwise, and the gravity mechanics opened up entirely new styles of level design and changed the way you think about and navigate levels."

You mean the fludd that is pretty much a jetpack? I honestly don't remember how it was so increidble. You can also find something very similar is 2D with Mighty Swtich Force 2. Gravity has been used in many 2d platformers like megaman 4 ( game boy) and mario land 2 and they also changed how you progressed through those levels. It changed my thinking as much as it was needed to adjust to gravity, but that's it. You can also see the gravity mechanic used in VVVVV and there it's more significant than in the other 2 examples.

"Mario was an example. You can apply the same logic to other platformers. DK as I already mentioned had the same moves across several games with the only new addition being the ability to climb in Returns/Tropical Freeze. Yoshi has only really been able to Jump, Ground Pound, Eat, and Throw Eggs in every Yoshi game. Kirby's gameplay has mainly focused on copy abilities, but Planet Robobot is the only recent 2D platformer I've seen that really does anything new and creative with the Robobot Armor."

Well, they are defined characters with defined abilities. It's better to focus on making those abilities functional and fun than just adding something that you won't end up using. Also, I really don't see Mario in any 3d game being that different, and this happens to most characters that have more than one entry. Apply to games that are being praised as 2d platformers right now, since you are saying that all the genre is stale.

"Thing is the game is going to be boring and bland regardless if you just endlessly recycle things over and over again. New and fun go hand in hand."

There are many, many series that got entries that were really different from the regular ones that can tell you the contrary about "new and fun go hand in hand". Besides you do get new things that maybe aren't as significative for you as they are for others. You get new stages, new story, new enemies, new boss fights, new collectibles, etc. Sometimes by tweaking a few things in level design you change the focus of the game and that make sit feel different. Right now many 2D platformers are finding success, so I really doubt people are finding all of them bland and boring.

Its more simple if you see it this way: maybe your thing is innovation in gameplay, new features. You also probably enjoy 3d platforming more, but that doesn't mean that 3d platformers are superior or being more creative to everyone, just by your standards.

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Bolt_Strike

roy130390 wrote:

@Bolt_Strike I told you that there are man y platformers with more than one path to complete an area. Not every game forces you to follow the same route. Pretty much every metroidvania game offers you different connections between levels so that you don't have to follow the same route and so that you have other paths to explore when you revisit it. Not only 3d games offer a functional sandbox and it's not innovative or new, in fact, it's fairly common.

roy130390 wrote:

Megaman (insert whatever number) says hi. Sure, you can make boss fights easier by going in a certain order, but they don't force you at all. The first stage and the last stage do have an order though, just as with any 3D sandbox game. Funny because megaman games are the most linear in terms of stage design since the path is pretty much one, but as you said they don't have to offer everything to be great and they do offer that freedom for most of the game.

roy130390 wrote:

Really? the megaman level variety is explained simply because those words are separated and he chases enemies around the globe. Shovel knight has a really nice looking interconected world. Hollow Knight, Xeodrifter, Steam World Dig, Castlevania games... I find logic between most stages simply because when doing these games this is a criticized aspect so they tend to be careful with it. Sure, they can slip one or 2 and not every game will follow this, but there are many that do. Saying "not really" without backup doesn't make a difference.

Metroidvanias aren't linear platformers though, so that doesn't really help your case. Remember that you're defending series like 2D Mario and DK, not Megaman. And for those types of series, these things are definitely true.

roy130390 wrote:

Ok, so, tell me what hasn't been reused over and over. Not only that, but what I was pointing out is that Galaxy uses many of the most reused themes in gaming. Desert, haunted place, ice, fire... should I go on? I do like the npcs, they are awesome but I've also seen awesome npcs in 2D games like the entire Shovel Knight character list. Super Metroid, Fusion and Zero mission also come to my mind since they have so many new and old creatures and both are welcome to see. Shantae, Cave Story, Hollow Knight...

You're doing an awfully poor job of showing that Galaxy's level themes are constantly reused looking at Toy Time and Freezeflame, as there have been far less games that have done level themes like those than some of the level themes you see in Mario and DK.

roy130390 wrote:

I do see many characters from different 2D platformers that are different and also many that share similar aspects , however you have to see that 2d gaming is more limited in this, like , by a lot and yet many 3d platformers also share similar jumping and attacks.

Why? Why do 2D platformers have to be more limited in character abilities? That's an artificial limitation that doesn't need to be there.

roy130390 wrote:

You mean the fludd that is pretty much a jetpack? I honestly don't remember how it was so increidble. You can also find something very similar is 2D with Mighty Swtich Force 2. Gravity has been used in many 2d platformers like megaman 4 ( game boy) and mario land 2 and they also changed how you progressed through those levels. It changed my thinking as much as it was needed to adjust to gravity, but that's it. You can also see the gravity mechanic used in VVVVV and there it's more significant than in the other 2 examples.

Again, you're being far too strict in what's new and innovative, it's incredibly difficult to come up with something 100% original in this day and age and if you look at gameplay in that light you might not find any recent game that's that innovative, but these are all things that have been done very little and not to the same degree. Additionally, they're all far less used than the things you see in modern 2D platformers.

roy130390 wrote:

Well, they are defined characters with defined abilities. It's better to focus on making those abilities functional and fun than just adding something that you won't end up using.

No they're not. There's nothing saying they have to stick with those exact moves over and over and over again and that's a large part of what makes them stale and not fun anymore. They've been doing functional for 20 years now, they'd make the games a lot more fun finding new moves to polish and make functional.

roy130390 wrote:

Also, I really don't see Mario in any 3d game being that different, and this happens to most characters that have more than one entry.

The sandbox games have a lot more acrobatic moves than the 2d games, which are mainly regular jumps. You can do much, much more to get around the levels in the sandbox games than the linear games. The sandbox games were the first ones to have Ground Pound, Long Jump, and Wall Jump (again, showing where all of the innovation in this series is), and they still have moves like Backflip, Spin Jump, and Triple Jump which all add to the platforming and expand what Mario can do. Now Odyssey also has the roll move and the hat jump move.

roy130390 wrote:

Besides you do get new things that maybe aren't as significative for you as they are for others. You get new stages, new story, new enemies, new boss fights, new collectibles, etc. Sometimes by tweaking a few things in level design you change the focus of the game and that make sit feel different. Right now many 2D platformers are finding success, so I really doubt people are finding all of them bland and boring.

At some point it has to. Humans hate repetition, and the repetition of having the same formula will eventually outweigh the new levels, etc.. The only reason games like NSMB are still successful is because of younger and casual gamers that didn't play the older entries. Among older gamers that have played multiple entries, there's a growing sentiment that those games have become stale. Especially with Mario that's had 5 games in the last 10 years that have all felt similar to each other.

Bolt_Strike

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grizzgolf

I hope at some point we get a new Donkey Kong game

grizzgolf

rallydefault

Yea, a Metroid announcement, even just a teaser for something a year out, would be INSANE.

Even if it's "just" a brand-new 2D Metroid with perhaps a vague promise of a Prime-style entry down the pipe, the hype would be incredible.

rallydefault

OorWullie

I'd like to see what Goodfeel could do with a Donkey Kong platformer.It would be a complete departure for the series but it doesn't need to be a a part of the 'Country' series.

Personally I hope their next game is a new IP,they've earned their shot at one.If not then a revival of a long abandoned IP.Eternal Darkness would be the ideal candidate.Whatever it is I hope it's something big,spectacular and heavily funded and marketed by Nintendo.Wasn't their reports 2 or 3 years ago that Retro were hiring extra staff?It's possible they've been working on something smaller alongside their main project.If that is the case then a 2D Metroid would be more than fantastic.As much as I absolutely love Tropical Freeze I would be disappointed if after all this time a sequel to it is all they have for us.If this sequel was to be the smaller project though then I'd definitely be happy with that.

Edited on by OorWullie

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Eric258

Tbh I can either see a 2D Metroid, new IP or the revival of an IP. I honestly don't think we'll be getting prime 4 from them as a lot of talent behind it has left. Also with their amazing job for Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze, I can easily see them wanting to tackle a new 2D Metroid. Although I'm leaning more towards a new IP. I think they've done more than enough to prove their worth and it would be pretty cool to see what retro comes up with.

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roy130390

@Bolt_Strike "Metroidvanias aren't linear platformers though, so that doesn't really help your case. Remember that you're defending series like 2D Mario and DK, not Megaman. And for those types of series, these things are definitely true."

Where did you get that idea? I never said anything like that, hell I've been mentioning several times the genre... No, I'm defending 2d platformers as a whole remember? You said the genre as a whole was stale.

"You're doing an awfully poor job of showing that Galaxy's level themes are constantly reused looking at Toy Time and Freezeflame, as there have been far less games that have done level themes like those than some of the level themes you see in Mario and DK."

Just because some games abuse even more of that, doesn't mean that Mario Galaxy isn't reusing the most common scenarios. Again, you are talking as if I'm defending only 2D Marios and DK and I already stated I'm defending the whole genre, which you attacked. Hardly an "awfully poor job" just because you want to limit the options in your favor. I even told you examples of themes they reuse that are reused n many, many games.

"Why? Why do 2D platformers have to be more limited in character abilities? That's an artificial limitation that doesn't need to be there."

There's no "artificial limitation". It's simly is more limited because it doesn't have the fredom a 3d platformer has when it comes to character movement. You can move in less directions, that's it. I really hope thisone is clear because I mean, it's not hard to see.

"Again, you're being far too strict in what's new and innovative, it's incredibly difficult to come up with something 100% original in this day and age and if you look at gameplay in that light you might not find any recent game that's that innovative, but these are all things that have been done very little and not to the same degree. Additionally, they're all far less used than the things you see in modern 2D platformers."

Something new is something that hasn't been done or applied, simple as that. I agree about being really difficult to come up with something 100 % original and that's exactly my point and yet, you can't see the irony. Maybe you are the one who's being far too strict with 2D platformers and saying that they are being "far less used" doesn't change the fact that they are not innovative and that 2D platformers came with that first and that there's way more competition in the genre so it's expected to see more repeated ideas bewteen those games.

"No they're not. There's nothing saying they have to stick with those exact moves over and over and over again and that's a large part of what makes them stale and not fun anymore. They've been doing functional for 20 years now, they'd make the games a lot more fun finding new moves to polish and make functional."

Yes, they are, and I'm not saying to stick with the same exact moves, that you took out of nowhere since of course they can add and change the less significant moves. But it's simple: there are defining abilities that go with the character. Kirby absorbs enemies, Samus shoots, Zero uses a sword. You can't see the failure in your argument which is generalizing for everyone. Not fun for you, yeah, no one is debating that, again, it doesn't apply for everyone.

"The sandbox games have a lot more acrobatic moves than the 2d games, which are mainly regular jumps. You can do much, much more to get around the levels in the sandbox games than the linear games. The sandbox games were the first ones to have Ground Pound, Long Jump, and Wall Jump (again, showing where all of the innovation in this series is), and they still have moves like Backflip, Spin Jump, and Triple Jump which all add to the platforming and expand what Mario can do. Now Odyssey also has the roll move and the hat jump move."

Maybe in Mario they were the first, you can find long jumps in Super Metroid by running at high seed and you can find wall jump in megaman X games. Some of the others made it's apperance in Mario VS Donkey Kong on the game boy.

In Super Metroid you can run super fast, do a propulsion jump, do a large jump, combine beams, use different projectiles, crouch, turn into a morph ball, drop small bombs, drop big bombs, wall climbing, scan, use grappling hook and even use special abilities like the one used to recharge energy. Then you have Castlevania Symphony of the Night, then you have Megaman Zero, Hollow Knight, Shovel Knight, Demon's Crest, Shantae... many 2D games with many different abilities to master and use tot raverse levels.

"At some point it has to. Humans hate repetition, and the repetition of having the same formula will eventually outweigh the new levels, etc.. The only reason games like NSMB are still successful is because of younger and casual gamers that didn't play the older entries. Among older gamers that have played multiple entries, there's a growing sentiment that those games have become stale. Especially with Mario that's had 5 games in the last 10 years that have all felt similar to each other."

Dude, humans normally live by routines, some humans live more comfortable with them than others but no, not everyone hates them, in fact, there's people that actually hate change and many persons need those changes to be done gradually or they feel uncomfortable. Sure, changes are applied, hence why people prefer some games against others, it's another thing that they don't appeal to you, something you just don't seem to understand.

Dude, I'll repeat itn once again: I'm not a Mario fan and certainly I'm not looking to defend it. Attacking a series is really pointless when you started assuring that the whole 2d platformer genre is stale and that 3d platformers are better. 2D Mario is just a really small portion of those games and when you focus so much on it I get the idea that you haven't played many modern (or even classic) 2D platformers.

Also, generalizing saying that only kids that haven't played Mario games enjoy the 2d entries is offensive and really, really ilogical. Just by logic I assure you that there's people that enjoy them simply because they are fans of the franchise, despite the many years they have been playing since they feel that the gameplay is perfect as it is. Personally I do think that 2D Marios are too similar, but the problem is that you talked about a whole genre, not about this series.

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Bolt_Strike

roy130390 wrote:

Where did you get that idea? I never said anything like that, hell I've been mentioning several times the genre... No, I'm defending 2d platformers as a whole remember? You said the genre as a whole was stale.

Well I've never really considered Metroidvanias platformers, but if you're going by that logic, it's the linear platformers, not just the 2D platformers, that are stale.

roy130390 wrote:

Just because some games abuse even more of that, doesn't mean that Mario Galaxy isn't reusing the most common scenarios. Again, you are talking as if I'm defending only 2D Marios and DK and I already stated I'm defending the whole genre, which you attacked. Hardly an "awfully poor job" just because you want to limit the options in your favor. I even told you examples of themes they reuse that are reused n many, many games.

The themes you pointed out aren't really that common. The common themes are grass, beach, underwater, mountain, desert, ice, sky, and lava. Toy theme has only been used in a handful of games and Freezeflame is a hybrid of ice and lava which also hasn't really been done.

roy130390 wrote:

There's no "artificial limitation". It's simly is more limited because it doesn't have the fredom a 3d platformer has when it comes to character movement. You can move in less directions, that's it. I really hope thisone is clear because I mean, it's not hard to see.

The inability to move in as many directions isn't as limiting as you think it is. Every Mario move introduced so far can easily translate into 2D should they want to. This doesn't stop them from creating new moves in linear platformers at all.

roy130390 wrote:

Something new is something that hasn't been done or applied, simple as that. I agree about being really difficult to come up with something 100 % original and that's exactly my point and yet, you can't see the irony. Maybe you are the one who's being far too strict with 2D platformers and saying that they are being "far less used" doesn't change the fact that they are not innovative and that 2D platformers came with that first and that there's way more competition in the genre so it's expected to see more repeated ideas bewteen those games.

roy130390 wrote:

Yes, they are, and I'm not saying to stick with the same exact moves, that you took out of nowhere since of course they can add and change the less significant moves. But it's simple: there are defining abilities that go with the character. Kirby absorbs enemies, Samus shoots, Zero uses a sword. You can't see the failure in your argument which is generalizing for everyone. Not fun for you, yeah, no one is debating that, again, it doesn't apply for everyone.

Well at least we agree on that.

roy130390 wrote:

Dude, humans normally live by routines, some humans live more comfortable with them than others but no, not everyone hates them, in fact, there's people that actually hate change and many persons need those changes to be done gradually or they feel uncomfortable. Sure, changes are applied, hence why people prefer some games against others, it's another thing that they don't appeal to you, something you just don't seem to understand.

This isn't just personal preference, this is basic Psychology. It doesn't matter how much you like something if you repeat it infinitely eventually you'll get bored of it. Personal preference starts to matter less and less at that point, the brain just stops tolerating it. With the amount of linear platformers we've seen lately, it should be getting to that point now.

roy130390 wrote:

Dude, I'll repeat itn once again: I'm not a Mario fan and certainly I'm not looking to defend it. Attacking a series is really pointless when you started assuring that the whole 2d platformer genre is stale and that 3d platformers are better. 2D Mario is just a really small portion of those games and when you focus so much on it I get the idea that you haven't played many modern (or even classic) 2D platformers.

Also, generalizing saying that only kids that haven't played Mario games enjoy the 2d entries is offensive and really, really ilogical. Just by logic I assure you that there's people that enjoy them simply because they are fans of the franchise, despite the many years they have been playing since they feel that the gameplay is perfect as it is. Personally I do think that 2D Marios are too similar, but the problem is that you talked about a whole genre, not about this series.

Again, the same logic applies to other franchises in the genre, Mario is simply the best example. DK, Yoshi, and Kirby have all had similar problems to the ones I've been highlighting in Mario (see: NSMB, 3D Land, and 3D World, DKCR and Tropical Freeze, Kirby's Return to Dream Land and Kirby Triple Deluxe, and Yoshi's New Island). That, at the very least, implies that Nintendo is having an issue with making their linear platformers feel fresh seeing as they've been struggling with that for ALL of their linear platformers. So this is a genre issue, not just a Mario issue.

Edited on by Bolt_Strike

Bolt_Strike

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gcunit

I don't know anything about Retro, nor what it takes to make a DKC game, but I can't believe a studio of that reputation has been spending this long just making another DKC game. I'm guessing new IP for now.

You guys had me at blood and semen.

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Haru17

It's also not like talent is completely fixed to genre. Sony's Gorilla Studios — known for a FPS — made Horizon, a open world third person shooter and RPG. Sure they hired writers, but that's only a handful of people, and many more resign and are hired with each dev cycle.

Retro making Donkey Kong Country for 7 years after the Metroid Prime Trilogy is only that. It doesn't predict or dictate their future projects.

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

roy130390

It's not "going by that logic", those are part of the genre, hence why it's not very wise to generalize on an entire genre.

Do you know why those themes are common? because they work. I don't think the problem is using them as long as the level design is enjoyable. Boss fights are an element present in most games, simply because most players enjoy them, so there's a reason to apply a clichÊ. Also, as I told you the coherence of the game (and showed you why they actually made it matter in many cases) makes some of these stages simply fit or be needed with the story told. When they start using the "not so common" themes, then they'll be common and then what? Coming with a new, frresh theme isn't easy and in the end what keeps a stage enjoyable is the design, not the theme.

"The inability to move in as many directions isn't as limiting as you think it is. Every Mario move introduced so far can easily translate into 2D should they want to. This doesn't stop them from creating new moves in linear platformers at all."

Ok. Move your 2D character to the left, to his left or to his right. Move your character in the many degrees that you aren't able to access in a 2D game. Sure, the jumps and moves can be added, but again, 3D exploration has an edge over 2D and of course it is limiting, regardless of if they can add every Mario movement. We weren't discussing how limiting it is or if thet can add all the movements by the way, I just told you that 2D is more limited which is a fact.

"This isn't just personal preference, this is basic Psychology. It doesn't matter how much you like something if you repeat it infinitely eventually you'll get bored of it. Personal preference starts to matter less and less at that point, the brain just stops tolerating it. With the amount of linear platformers we've seen lately, it should be getting to that point now."

Dude, I'm studying psychology. Basic psychology? Go and just google "people prefer routines" and you'll find lots of articles about the psychology behind enjoying them. It's funny, I try to avoid mentioning what I study, but it seems I encounter "experts" on the matter everywhere. You are talking about "basic psychology" and you can't understand that people have different personalities and preferences?

Also, there's something really flawed about your argument: You are talking as if someone would only play 2d platformers everyday for the rest of his life, which is quite unlikely. People with normal schedules don't play games all the time and if they did, most would get bored of gaming as a whole, regardless of the genre. People have preferences and those preferences will establish how much they want or stand of something and things like their autorregulation will influence this. The average gamer plays different games of many genres and when he gets tired of one he'll go play another thing.

"Again, the same logic applies to other franchises in the genre, Mario is simply the best example. DK, Yoshi, and Kirby have all had similar problems to the ones I've been highlighting in Mario (see: NSMB, 3D Land, and 3D World, DKCR and Tropical Freeze, Kirby's Return to Dream Land and Kirby Triple Deluxe, and Yoshi's New Island). That, at the very least, implies that Nintendo is having an issue with making their linear platformers feel fresh seeing as they've been struggling with that for ALL of their linear platformers. So this is a genre issue, not just a Mario issue."

Problems with who? If you mean some people, yeah, every game, even the most perfect ones have people that didn't enjoy them somewhere. Mario games (this includes Yoshi) may be having this, I don't know about DK since I wasn't able to play that one (hence why I talked you about the general reception and not mine) and Kirby, which personally I find enjoyable since it's classic ability of absorbing allows for as much different gameplay as the developers allow when creating different powers, are just a fraction of the genre, representing just Nintendo and well, you even said Planet Robobot felt fresh so regardless of wht you though about Triple Deluxe, the last entry proves there's still creativity.

Is Nintendo the whole genre? What other games have you played outside Nintendo? Personally, I don't think I have played many platformers despite having tried all those I mentioned and many more.

Also, you even changed to "linear platformers", and that changes the whole argument. At this point I have to ask you what games (not what you consider linear, the linear games you have played) do you count as linear platformers and not only of Nintendo, since in order to declare them stale, I expect you to have a considerable experience with the genre. Then I'll be able to say if I agree or disagree.

Edited on by roy130390

Switch Friend Code: SW-3916-4876-1970

roy130390

@DarthNocturnal Oh, what Twisted metal-esqe game? Every time I miss those I end up playing battle mode in Mario Kart...

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roy130390

@DarthNocturnal Haha, that sounds amazing to me and it would be really nice to see something like that in the future. I also checked Raven Blade and it looked quite interesting. It remembered me of what happened to Starcraft: ghost, which I was expecting on the gamecube and never came out.

Edited on by roy130390

Switch Friend Code: SW-3916-4876-1970

Bolt_Strike

roy130390 wrote:

Also, as I told you the coherence of the game (and showed you why they actually made it matter in many cases) makes some of these stages simply fit or be needed with the story told. When they start using the "not so common" themes, then they'll be common and then what? Coming with a new, frresh theme isn't easy and in the end what keeps a stage enjoyable is the design, not the theme.

Again, there is no coherence or story being told in the levels. Heck, there's barely even a story at all in those types of games, it's just "the bad guy is doing something bad, go stop him". The levels have nothing to do with that, nor do they really fit any kind of universe or pattern. They're just levels for the sake of levels.

roy130390 wrote:

Ok. Move your 2D character to the left, to his left or to his right. Move your character in the many degrees that you aren't able to access in a 2D game. Sure, the jumps and moves can be added, but again, 3D exploration has an edge over 2D and of course it is limiting, regardless of if they can add every Mario movement. We weren't discussing how limiting it is or if thet can add all the movements by the way, I just told you that 2D is more limited which is a fact.

This is irrelevant to the argument though, since the argument is about whether or not a particular move can be added. They have no problem translating moves from 2D to 3D and vice versa for the most part, they just control slightly differently.

roy130390 wrote:

Dude, I'm studying psychology. Basic psychology? Go and just google "people prefer routines" and you'll find lots of articles about the psychology behind enjoying them. It's funny, I try to avoid mentioning what I study, but it seems I encounter "experts" on the matter everywhere. You are talking about "basic psychology" and you can't understand that people have different personalities and preferences?

Again, it doesn't matter the personality or preference. Repetition eventually causes boredom regardless.

roy130390 wrote:

Also, there's something really flawed about your argument: You are talking as if someone would only play 2d platformers everyday for the rest of his life, which is quite unlikely. People with normal schedules don't play games all the time and if they did, most would get bored of gaming as a whole, regardless of the genre. People have preferences and those preferences will establish how much they want or stand of something and things like their autorregulation will influence this. The average gamer plays different games of many genres and when he gets tired of one he'll go play another thing.

That just makes it all the more nonsensical that these games sell. If people are that mercurial with their gaming habits they probably won't want to play a game that plays exactly like another game they've played, they'd be more discerning over the type of game they play.

roy130390 wrote:

Problems with who? If you mean some people, yeah, every game, even the most perfect ones have people that didn't enjoy them somewhere.

Not with who. With what. Problems with coming up with new ideas for their linear platformers.

roy130390 wrote:

I don't know about DK since I wasn't able to play that one (hence why I talked you about the general reception and not mine)

Here's basically what DK did. 1st game established the basic moveset and Donkey and Diddy's abilities. 2nd game replaced Donkey with Dixie who had a hair twirl move that lets her hover. 3rd game had Dixie again and replaced Diddy with Kiddy, who was basically a hybrid of Donkey and Diddy and did nothing really unique. Returns relegated Diddy to a helper character and removed swimming and throwing mechanics while adding a climbing move. Tropical Freeze added swimming and throwing back in, brought back Dixie and she basically functioned like Diddy but with a slightly different flight pattern, and Cranky, who had a pogo bounce move. All in all, not a lot of changes in gameplay over the course of the series. They phased characters in and out but they never really gave them new abilities or evolved the gameplay in any significant way.

roy130390 wrote:

are just a fraction of the genre, representing just Nintendo and well

They're a pretty important fraction though because these are the most popular and well known linear platformers. Plus it's Nintendo, they pride themselves on being quirky and creative so if they can't come up with anything new it makes them look bad.

roy130390 wrote:

you even said Planet Robobot felt fresh so regardless of wht you though about Triple Deluxe, the last entry proves there's still creativity.

One creative game does not redeem 10 stale ones.

roy130390 wrote:

Also, you even changed to "linear platformers", and that changes the whole argument. At this point I have to ask you what games (not what you consider linear, the linear games you have played) do you count as linear platformers and not only of Nintendo, since in order to declare them stale, I expect you to have a considerable experience with the genre. Then I'll be able to say if I agree or disagree.

I never "changed" to linear platformers. You simply misunderstood which platformers I was talking about.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

roy130390

@Bolt_Strike Dude, you talked about the WHOLE genre, that includes every type of game AND you can't even recognize that, there's no missunderstanding, that's what YOU said, referring to 2D as a whole multiple times. At this point we are just talking in circles and each time you give less backup to every argument and you say that my arguments are irrelevant for the sake of it. By the way, mediocre or forgettable games come by dozens on every genre, with just a few actually being good and of course certain genres are more accessible and have more entries, yet that doesn't make the genre stale.

You May be the one arguing about if moves could be added or not, I was arguing about 2D been more limited and I specified that and why I thought that.

I refuse to keep it simply because it's as pointless as debating with GameOtaku about why SNES VC didn't reach older 3DS models. Even when I select a specified point, it turns out it was "irrelevant the discussion" because I had to guess you weren't talking about every 2D platformer despite generalizing or even when I point out that 2D doesn't have the same amount of freedom in exploration it turns out it is also "irrelevant to the argument" because you said so and you were referring to adding those new moves to 2D (even if I was the one that selected that specific subject about the limits, it turns out I didn't know what I was referring to somehow!)

Besides it's clear you have little to no experience on platformers outside of Nintendo or that you have been avoiding to talk about pretty much about everything else, even if I ask you, only replying to what you select, so let's just agree to disagree.

Edited on by roy130390

Switch Friend Code: SW-3916-4876-1970

Pigeon

It sucks that it probably won't be a Metroid Prime game (as well as cause ineviatable anger among fans when they do announce as such). The Switch is in need of a good online multiplayer FPS, and Hunters was pretty darn fun online, once you got over the control scheme. And I sadly I never got to play the GC installments with friends either.

Chances are they're working on anothre Donkey Kong game. Which is a shame as, whilst I've heard they're really darn fun titles in their own right, are games that nobody seems to want as such. People buy them because, well, they're there.

Of course, here's hoping they have some form of new IP that'll blow our minds. But then again, these guys seem to only specialise in reviving and twisting already known Nintendo IPs.

Pigeon

Haru17

I think any prospective Metroid Prime 4 — crucially, a 3D game — would almost have to have multiplayer. I guess there's a chance it wouldn't if Nintendo wanted to go the singleplayer only, first-person Bethesda route, but they've always been a very social game company. I think there will be a mode in that hypothetical game, even if it's not exactly a Splatoon or Battlefield. Think Echoes, not Federation Force. It wasn't amazing, but I had fun tooling around in that multiplayer mode with my friend. It was great how, when the kinetic ball canons rose out of the ground, then would instakill players walking over them.

Don't hate me because I'm bnahabulous.

Pigeon

@Frosty_09 Sorry, no personal favourites. :/

But I really think Nintendo consoles are in desperate need of a popular FPS to corner that part of the market.

The Switch has two analog sticks. It's prime time we had a decent FPS on a Nintendo handheld. The PS Vita's offerings, all things considering, were all fun (yes, even CoD wasn't a 'bad' game, just bare bones).

I know we have Splatoon, but that's team based, which causes irritation at times. Whilst I know it's Nintendo's style to not bother with something unless there's some unique twist or concept, even an FPS with nothing more than a death-match or team DM is good for me. Heck, why can't Nintendo commission someone to port one of Steam's free-to-play FPS titles on the Switch?

Pigeon

OorWullie

@Pigeon I'd be really happy with something old-school like Goldeneye's mutliplayer.Retro-style but with the modern perks one would expect and that Nintendo twist.Make it a download only title or perhaps a free to play game as part of their online membership.

đŸ‡Ŧ🇧 Mr Mustard 🇹🇭
SW-6101-8403-1640

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