My point is that a GBC-style upgrade wouldn't be worthwhile given the prevalence of multiplatform game development in the modern era vs how games used to be developed. The next model needs to expand the pool of games that are able to be played on the hardware, which means an upgrade on par with a generational shift. We're already near the end of the lifecycle for this particular family of hardware.
And anyway, that sort of model for a family of hardware would be terrible on Switch. It didn't even gain traction on 3DS, and that was still a platform where games were being developed like in the old days (the last time, really).
@StuTwo I definitely wouldn't opt for the GBA-era presentation over what they managed with the remakes.
@JaxonH Totally. Advance Wars is very pure and refined in terms of its tactical balance and gameplay. It's why I love the series so much. It's much closer to something like chess than it is to other tactics games.
@Ryu_Niiyama Yeah, it's a little frustrating how we've gone from unique versions of games being developed for each system in such a way as to fit the hardware well to games being developed for a target platform, and you'd just better hope the platform you like is sufficiently similar that it can be ported with a minimum of development time.
It still happens, but very rarely. Dragon Quest XI S immediately comes to mind. They actually altered the lighting, character geometry, etc., and added in a bunch of cool new features to boot. It was eventually ported to the other platforms, but that version of the game was created with Switch in mind.
I guess Final Fantasy XV: Pocket Edition counts as well.
@JaxonH i higly doubt Nintendo next hardware will be simply a more powerful hardware, you know very well Nintendo dont work like that, Nintendo next hardware will feature a completely new concept no one expected, a simply more powerful hardware that is Sony/Microsoft mantra no Nintendo mantra, Nintendo tried to do a more powerful console, and they become they least sucesufull console, they trive on unique ways of playing it hardware with it software, just to trow it away for more power, i dont see Nintendo doing that., also Shuntaro Furukawa has reitared severals times they want a smoothy transition for it next generational hardware, they cant ignore a 100+milions user base
@skywake You're not understanding me.
My point is that a GBC-style upgrade wouldn't be worthwhile given the prevalence of multiplatform game development in the modern era vs how games used to be developed. The next model needs to expand the pool of games that are able to be played on the hardware, which means an upgrade on par with a generational shift. We're already near the end of the lifecycle for this particular family of hardware.
TBH the only thing I don't understand is why people seem to think it's one or the other. That this kind of model requires the change in performance to be small. It really doesn't. All it requires is for there to be cross compatibility and a decent enough install base for the previous hardware to justify it
I see no reason why stuff like Puyo Puyo Tetris 3 or whatever needs to be on new hardware. Games like that could easily release as Switch titles and nobody would notice or care. Those would be your "Type A" games. Then "above" that there are games that don't need the new hardware but could leverage it for a bit of a performance bump, "Type B" games. Think existing games like BotW/TotK but also stuff like HD era remasters and so on. Or the rumour posted that started this discussion, patching Scarlet/Violet. Then there are the games that couldn't possibly run on Switch or, at the very least, would require significant optimisation to be able to. These are the games you're talking about, the "Type C" games
This model solves your problem while still holding on and supporting the massive install base. The only downside to it is that you force yourself into the same architecture in order to achieve it. Also if you do this you tie yourself to the branding of the previous platform. But Nintendo are supposedly going with Tegra again anyways so that's not really a limitation and the Switch brand is surely an asset
And anyway, that sort of model for a family of hardware would be terrible on Switch. It didn't even gain traction on 3DS, and that was still a platform where games were being developed like in the old days (the last time, really).
I don't know, the New 3DS sold a fair few units and it did give 3DS sales a decent kick when they were starting to decline. Also there were plenty of games on the 3DS that took advantage of the improved hardware. Sure, there weren't that many New 3DS exclusives but I think that's more to do with the fact that the upgrade was "just" a doubling of the RAM and Core count and the fact that, even after the upgrade, the equation for development didn't really change much. It wasn't a generational leap in performance (the GPU didn't change) and outside of that performance jump it was just an integrated circle pad pro... ish...
With the GBC transition you could argue it wasn't a generational leap either on paper. If you ignore the fact that it also went from 2 bit colour to 15bit colour. Basically developing the Type A games gave you no control over what the colours in the game were. Type B allowed you to program in colour and gave you access to the IR port. Type C gave you the clock and memory boost, which to be fair opened up a lot of options on the very limited hardware. Far more technical reasons to develop GBC only games than New 3DS only games
With the Switch transition to the new hardware? It could well be cross compatible with Switch. But we're also potentially looking at something that has 4X the memory, 4X the memory bandwidth, 6 instead of 4 ARM cores, 3-4X the raw compute, access to higher resolution modes, possibly HDR, the addition of Tensor cores for DLSS but also potentially other AI acceleration. And lets not forget that there could be a potential "gimmick" in here. A camera backed by AI accelerated pattern recognition anyone? I think there are enough goodies there that the "Type C" games would come. Certainly more than they did on the New 3DS, maybe not GBC tier but certainly closer to GBC than New 3DS
If you want to say that this sort of leap in performance puts it into some arbitrary category? Go for you life. I couldn't care less what box people perceive it as being in. I'm far more interested in how the library transitions and how games take advantage of the hardware. And the rumour that Scarlet/Violet are being patched to take advantage of the new hardware? If true that's the "GBC model" in my mind. It just is. And that's a good thing because the "clean generation refresh" model SUCKS for consumers
We already know what chip they're using. It's a full generational leap. One can call it a "Pro" or a "Switch 2" all they want, but if it's a generational leap in power with its own exclusive games... a spade is a spade. If they were gonna use half measures they would have done it already.
Wait we do know what chip they're using? I thought the Tegra X1 the Switch uses never got a successor beyond one that was automobile-only?
And in regards to the power aspect ... you make an interesting point. It could go either way — they could decide to stick to the Switch motif or they could fear they need something new each time they release a new console. The latter has been characteristic of Nintendo for the past 20 years, but that was due to Iwata's influence. Which obviously paid dividends, but with new leadership, and the first console released without Iwata's oversight since the GameCube, it will be interesting to see if Nintendo continues their approach or decide to pursue a Playstation/Xbox iterative approach. I think they'll try a 3DS/Wii U approach for the successor and see what happens.
@skywake Huh that's an interesting way to look at it. Nintendo and internet competence have never really been two phrases people associate, but you're right that Nintendo did jump fast on the Wifi train without hesitation on the DS.
With the Switch transition to the new hardware? It could well be cross compatible with Switch. But we're also potentially looking at something that has 4X the memory, 4X the memory bandwidth, 6 instead of 4 ARM cores, 3-4X the raw compute, access to higher resolution modes, possibly HDR, the addition of Tensor cores for DLSS but also potentially other AI acceleration. And lets not forget that there could be a potential "gimmick" in here. A camera backed by AI accelerated pattern recognition anyone? I think there are enough goodies there that the "Type C" games would come. Certainly more than they did on the New 3DS, maybe not GBC tier but certainly closer to GBC than New 3DS
If you want to say that this sort of leap in performance puts it into some arbitrary category? Go for you life. I couldn't care less what box people perceive it as being in. I'm far more interested in how the library transitions and how games take advantage of the hardware. And the rumour that Scarlet/Violet are being patched to take advantage of the new hardware? If true that's the "GBC model" in my mind. It just is. And that's a good thing because the "clean generation refresh" model SUCKS for consumers
Hmm to be honest, I think the line is blurry nowadays. Obviously PS4 Pro/ Xbox One X fit the description you're saying. But what about PS5 and Xbox Series X? They are clearly new generations featuring games that can't run on PS4/Xbox One, Type C games. But at the same time, there are games released that run on say PS4/PS4 Pro/PS5 but run best on PS5, just like the type B games you mentioned for GB/GBC. And then there are games that run more or less the same across all three besides resolution upgrades, which are Type A games (ignoring resolution boosts).
I guess the clear way to differentiate between a GBC-style successor and a GBA-style successor is the number of Type B and Type C games each receives (more of the former = GBC style, more of the latter = GBA style). But my point is PS5 and Series X don't fit that traditional mold of clean new generation because of patches to older PS4/Xbone games and cross-gen releases. It's very well possible the new Switch console coming by the end of next year is a clean new generation but effectively only receives Type B games for the first few years before getting Type C games, like PS5. Or it could clearly be marketed as a GBC/Pro model. Guess we'll see what happens.
@shadow-wolf
The PS4/5 and XBOne/Series transitions are definitely more towards the "GBC Model" side of that spectrum. It's certainly the way that the industry has been heading more generally. As I said, sharp platform changes are risky and corporations want to minimise risk. If they don't have to "bin" the previous library they won't
In terms of the GBC -> GBA transition, there were no "Type B" games in that transition. The transition to the GBA was in many respects as much of a reset as the transition from Wii U to Switch. It had the same cartridge shape, more or less, but the way it played GBC games was by literally having the GBC CPU in it. It was a similar, although not as dramatic, jump from GBA to DS. In that case the GBA CPU on the DS was used for OS functions when in "DS Mode". WiFi etc
My best guess at how this will play out? If I was to bet on the specifics of it I'd say first half of next year. We'll get a performance jump similar to 360 -> XBOne. In Nintendo history sense that would be one of the smaller jumps in performance. A similar scale transition would be like, DS to 3DS. But still significantly bigger than GC -> Wii or Wii U -> Switch which were both, relatively speaking, non-changes for performance
My guess is that there will be full backwards compatibility, most of these games will fall under that "Type A" category. But Nintendo and maybe a few other devs will go back and patch titles to take advantage of the new hardware. Major first party titles obviously, Smash, Kart, Mario, Zelda, Metroid. Probably some third party titles, Doom being the most likely one in my mind. Most of these patches will just be opening up higher resolution support, DLSS usage, maybe HDR. Some might go a tiny bit further.
Beyond that, from launch day onwards? There will be titles that only exist on the new hardware. Certainly some key new first party titles in that launch window, probably some third party gets. But my prediction is that we will continue to get plain old Switch releases. Those "Type A" and "Type B" games. Does the next Rhythm Heaven need DLSS? Probably not. And by making it a "Type A/B" game they can sell it to a larger audience
How the consumer will look at it? I think they'll look at in a similar way to the PS5 in the market. It will be marketed as a next generation of Switch and people will view it like that. Switch Pro as a marketing strategy, we're certainly past that point now. But in terms of how it actually functions? I think on day 1 when you unbox the first thing you do is sign in, transfer your Switch Library and spin up TotK to see what Zelda looks like with HDR at 60fps and AI upscaling to 1440p.......
Well, maybe you spin up TotK after you play the 1-2 Switch equivalent novelty game taking advantage of novelty feature whatever before putting it back in its box to never play again
@Giancarlothomaz Nintendo next hardware will feature a completely new concept no one expected, a simply more powerful hardware that is Sony/Microsoft mantra no Nintendo mantra, Nintendo tried to do a more powerful console, and they become they least sucesufull console
And this is where you're both correct and incorrect.
Correct that it will FEATURE some new concept. Yes. Incorrect that that will be the main appeal. The main appeal will be the fact it's a hybrid device that's more powerful.
I never said power would be the ONLY thing it offers, but it will be the primary appeal for most gamers. And Nintendo knows this.
The reason power failed for Nintendo before is because they didn't offer anything different than the competition. That is no longer true. Switch has now established a permanent place in the market, and as such, power WILL be a successful strategy.
It's literally the only move they have. It's what everyone wants. You either do something completely different, or you refine what you have. They absolutely, positively will NOT abandon the hybrid approach. Which means refining it is the only way forward. Which means POWER is the focus. You will watch and you will witness a more powerful Switch absolutely dominate, and these claims of "power doesn't sell for Nintendo" are gonna fall by the wayside.
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
Zachariah 12:10 (500 yrs before Christ)
They will look on Me whom they pierced
Expect results somewhere in line with SteamDeck/PS4/X1. That's a pretty massive leap for such a small, petite portable hybrid gaming device.
We've also gotten other leaks stating some games will receive performance patches on the new system, implying BC, but extra performance is not automatic.
They've got nothing to worry about. The hunger for a more powerful Switch is at record levels. They'll sell 20 million in the first year alone, and with enthusiastic early adopters accounting for the bulk of software purchases, they won't even skip a beat.
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
Zachariah 12:10 (500 yrs before Christ)
They will look on Me whom they pierced
Wouldn't this be the case for the large slew of games with dynamic resolutions and unlocked framerates depending on how it handles BC? It could be like running PS4 games on a PS5 in that respect, which would be brilliant.
Currently Playing: Metroid Prime 4: Beyond (NS2); Corpse Factory (PC)
@Ralizah
Dynamic scaling still has a target frame rate and resolution ceiling. Doesn't really make sense to lock a game at 30fps and allow it to scale it's resolution between 720p and 480p if you can hit 1080p/60. Same with level of detail
I mean, if these games unpatched can do 720p/30 consistently on the new hardware? That's cool. But you'd probably still want it patched to push it a bit further
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@skywake Games like Monster Hunter Stories 2 and SMT V bounce around wildly in terms of framerate and resolution, and could potentially hit 720p60 on new hardware when undocked.
The Switch is full of games that would look and run great, but are limited by the hardware. A ton of them wouldn't even need patches.
@Ralizah
Ya I suppose in the case of dynamic resolutions and stuff. But people shouldn't expect to pop games in and have them look and run better. If it's set to 900p at 30fps, it's still gonna be 900p at 30fps.
Games with unlocked framerates, dynamic resolutions and games that fail to hit their targets could benefit, depending how BC is implemented as you say. If it simulates the same clock speeds and performance for BC mode, then maybe not. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
Zachariah 12:10 (500 yrs before Christ)
They will look on Me whom they pierced
@JaxonH you are completely wrong, Nintendo Switch sucessor focus will not be a more powerful hybrid, that is not how Nintendo work, is gonna be a completely new concept like a stated, think do you really believe Nintendo will simply contend in doing a more powerful hybrid for it next hardware?(when they could do it with a mid gen reflesh?)no is gonna be a new concept, we already have thousands of consoles with the hybrid concept of Switch, Nintendo Switch sucessor need to be a new concept to difirentiate for all this consoles and Switch itself
i dont want a simply more powerful Switch, i want a console with a concept unique enough to difireate for others, a more powerful console bore me to death, i depise the possibilty of Nintendo following Sony/Microsoft path(always aiming for powerful consoles, i want unique ways to play my games, not a console i can see the pores of Link face)
Yes ! Developers want a more jank way to control on screen functions lol
There is literally thousands of other hybrid consoles but none of them are products that have games made specific for the hardware, mass produced and easy to setup like the switch.
Im sure whatever is next will have that Nintendo touch but after selling 120+ million units just can't see them moving away from Switch/hybrid design.
@skywake Yes that's probably best case scenario and not unlikely either. Nintendo isn't opposed to taking some inspiration from Playstation/Xbox so hopefully if it's easy to port to both they would. But at the same time treat the new system as its own console with games that take full advantage of it.
@JaxonH That's awesome! That's basically in-line with the DS--> 3DS transition we were expecting so hopefully Nintendo delivers.
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