Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

@TheFrenchiestFry Persona 5 Switch is about Joker in Smash. Same with the other times main games weren't playable on Nintendo systems but characters in Smash:

• Roy - FE Binding Blade playable on GBA and Wii U but exclusive to Japan (there's a good chance of the exclusivity ending this year)
• Lucas - Mother 3 playable on GBA and Wii U but exclusive to Japan
• Cloud - FFVII exclusive to Playstation when Cloud came to Smash (exclusivity ended with announcement in September 2018 and release in March 2019)

@MarioLover92
Cool, that's awesome. It does look really good. I'm hoping it does well. I'd like to know more as well.

@WaveWitch
I'll try to find the article I was talking about. I've tried VR only a couple of times, and I thought it was really cool. I think that VR is a really neat concept, but it just seems to not be as big of a deal, as it was a few years ago. I found the article I was talking about: https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/24/gdc-nintendo-switch-develo...
It's like 3 years old at this point, but I feel like it gives a good picture of Switch vs VR development. 🤔
I also don't mind motion controls when they're done right as well. I thought the motion controls for ARMS were fine, but I also felt they were a little unresponsive at times. Yeah, I get that, moving around your character with the Joy-Cons did feel kind of weird.

Haha, that's a good point. That's the problem with motion controls sometimes (or just bizarre control setups) is it can make or break a game.
I know it's been on sale before, but I don't think it's ever been on sale that low before. (I could be wrong, though). 🤔

@Grumblevolcano Persona 5 Switch demand was definitely there long before Joker was confirmed for Smash. I recall it being very much rumored even during the days when people were speculating which games would be announced during the Switch Presentation shortly after its reveal, alongside games like FFXV and FFVII Remake. I remember Atlus' former PR manager actually had to step in and shut down the speculation himself on Twitter back in early 2017 ahead of the game's release. If anything Joker being in Smash actually resurrected its demand seeing as how for much of that audience it was the first time they were exposed to anything Persona or even Atlus-related

Also the reason Cloud was barred from having his game of origin playable on anything Nintendo related was largely due to the fact Sony had an agreement put in place with Square Enix back when they purchased stock in their company which basically meant they couldn't produce any mainline games for consoles that rivalled Sony's, nor could they port their existing catalog after Final Fantasy VI to other systems. That's why Square created an independent branch of their company to produce Crystal Chronicles and the GBA ports of I, II, IV, V and VI when they decided to rekindle their relationship with Nintendo. Unlike Joker there were actually legal restrictions in place that barred FFVII from appearing on anything that wasn't PlayStation and it wasn't just an exclusivity thing. This applied to VII through XII essentially

Cloud had appeared in other stuff on Nintendo by that point though so it's not like he was completely foreign to that area

With respect to the "no games" thing - I agree Xbox have suffered from this as well to some extent. I think the context around this is a bit different though - usually this is in comparison with the PS4 which, outside of exclusives, has a very similar library. And while Sony was hitting it out of the park with its first party titles, Microsoft had arguably reached a bit of a slump compared to the OG and 360 days. Switch on the other hand has quite a unique library.

And I agree that PSVita also unfairly got this treatment.

@TheFrenchiestFry As @jaxonH explained, portability gives people a reason to buy games that they already have access to. It's the reason people have double-dipped on games, and almost certainly the reason (beyond the massive Switch install base) that third parties are having much more success on the Switch than any previous Nintendo console.

With respect to Persona - having started the series with 4 Golden on the Vita, I just feel that this game works so well in a handheld. The social link / calendar system is great for short bursts of gameplay. Plus the games are so long that some people might struggle to find time to get through them otherwise.

@WaveWitch If you reread my post you'll see I never made this claim at all - I think that Switch has one of the best first party line ups, but not necessarily the best yet (I think that honour goes to the Wii U, due to its retro library and access to Wii titles). Most of Nintendo's noteworthy NES and SNES titles are available on the Switch, so I'm counting those. It also has arguably the best selection of Mario games of any console, and many games which are arguably the best in their series (Mario Kart 8 DX, Super Smash Bros Ultimate, Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, Luigi's Mansion 3, Splatoon 2). It is, however, lacking in traditional 3D Zeldas and several noteworthy games and franchises - but there's time to fix that.

@timleon I don't think anyone is really arguing that portability gives people a reason to invest in a game on Switch vs. other systems. I acknowledge there is a convenience factor, but that doesn't really give the Switch a pass for how imbalanced its library feels a lot of the time

Like yeah it's cool I get to play stuff like Xenoblade and FFX in bed but I didn't buy the Switch because of the thought of playing games from 2 or 3 generations ago on a portable system. The games that made me buy a Switch were pretty much all the original content like Xenoblade 2, or SMT V, or Odyssey and so on and so forth. When the original content does come around, for the most part they hit it out of the park, but since 2018 I've been more glued onto playing my PS4 compared to my Switch for the simple reason that Sony has outdone both companies in terms of having high quality original games come out at a way faster rate with the same amount of effort put in.

Also for a lot of the ports themselves I've mostly skipped out on getting them on Switch because the compromises were way too great for me to even think about willingly trading all those caveats just for portability. I haven't gotten games like Outer Worlds on Switch because of that. I'm also getting Persona 5 Strikers on PC instead of Switch because the excessively jaggy aliasing and Sonic 06-level load times were way too distracting the first time that I can't willingly say "this was all worth it for a portable experience"

For me, the PS4 is by far the most... er... 'redundant' of the modern platforms I own. Early-to-mid last gen, it was the only place to be for a lot of big Japanese properties, and that gave it a ton of value as a platform. But that time has passed. Those games are almost all going to PC now. What's left are indies, AAA games, and exclusives. Indies come first to PC, but I prefer them on Switch: both are preferable indie platforms to PS4, IMO. AAA games usually run OK on PS4, but why play a compromised 30fps version of a game when my PC will run it better and both are stuck on the TV anyway?

That really only leaves exclusives. Now, Sony's exclusives have been getting a lot of praise, and if cinematic third-person action games are your bread-and-butter, I could see why you'd like the console, but they don't do a whole lot for me.

It all really just depends on what you want to play, and where. If you ignore 99% of the Switch's library, of course you're going to be underwhelmed by it. At that point, I have to question why someone would buy a whole-ass platform for the once-in-a-generation 3D Mario and Zelda games. It does have really good third party support compared to previous Nintendo consoles, though, and I also happen to enjoy most of its exclusive titles. The hybrid design of the device gives games on it a value and appeal that I don't get anywhere else, and that's also a big part of why I enjoy playing on the platform so much. Performance deficits on Switch ports are the price I pay for being able to play anywhere. There's no similar benefit to playing a non-exclusive game on a PS4.

VR is... interesting, but is still too expensive, and it really requires games that were made with VR in mind. You have a tiny number of games that are actually compelling in VR, like Astro Bot, RE7, and the like, and then a ton of smaller experiences that people buy to justify spending hundreds of dollars on specialized VR equipment.

As to the new/old games thing, I think it kind of reveals how shallow the rhetoric about "ports" is. As if games have less value because they released on a platform you don't play or own. Does it really matter if a game like Cuphead or Ori released on PC/Xbox One first if you don't play on those platforms? When Hollow Knight went to PS4, did people enjoy it less because it was months older than the Switch release?

It's inane, frankly, and speaks more to the unhealthiness of gaming culture than anything else.

And, frankly, unless you play every game on its target development platform, you're playing a "port" anyway.

I'd be willing to bet 1000 dollars that they're not releasing GCN mini. And tbh, I'm not sure they're doing more mini consoles at all.

@WaveWitch There's no way in... well you know, that they're going to release more mini consoles. That's a ridiculous notion. They did the big 2, and they're done.

GB / N64 / GBA / DS will just be utterly unavailable for this generation, before coming back slowly in future ones. At best, we'll probably get GB(C) emulation at some point before the end of the lifespan. GCN and Wii will never get official mass emulation, the games instead of being sold individually or in small packs a la 3D All-Stars.

For the record, a GCN mini that played the games well would need to be stronger than the Switch to emulate all the major 1st party titles that would be expected. (Particularly Paper Mario: TTYD and Metroid Prime 1&2 I don't think could run full speed on Switch emulated due to relying heavily on functions not available in modern GPUs)

I think Nintendo will add GBA to NSO once the notable NES and SNES games have been released. There's still a few ones left like Urban Champion, Golf, Pinball, Donkey Kong Jr. Math, the 2 Earthbound games and Super Mario RPG. The first 3 were in NES Remix Pack.

There's 3rd party games I could see come too like the rest of the Ninja Gaiden NES trilogy.

@link3710 id love a gameboy mini and im not so sure it won't happen. $100 for a bunch of games and something that can fit in my pocket not much different Than the Mario 35 game in watch makes more than a little sense..

I think GameCube's at that point where it can be considered retro enough to be given similar treatment via either an online service add on or a new Mini console but yeah not holding my breath for something like Wii or DS anytime soon

Plus there are a ton of GameCube games I'd love to see given a second chance whether it be on NSO or on a new Mini console since I still think it has the strongest software lineup of any Nintendo home console

GBA needs to happen on Switch. It's stupid that the only device to receive GBA VC releases was a pure home console.

I'm still pissed that they added GBA to Wii U's VC but not the 3DS' when they literally offered up GBA games to the people who bought the console before the price cut but later claimed it would be difficult to get the emulation right

@Ralizah @TheFrenchiestFry GBA games on Wii U didn't make much sense to me either. It's a home console, for crying out loud...they even went ahead and brought DS games over to the Wii U. I mean it's nice to play these games on a TV, I guess, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Especially since there's no way to do multiplayer and the 3DS is already backwards compatible with DS games. The Wii U's Virtual Console lineup was kinda strange because of that.

And yes, TheFrenchiestFry - I got the 3DS before the price drop and I can tell you from experience, the GBA games work perfectly fine. They already got the emulation right, it's just that there's no save states.

@MarioLover92 So the reason the GBA games were ambassador only on 3DS is because those games aren't emulated.

The 3DS has a CPU and smaller CPU for DS functionality, hence it is backwards compatible.

This CPU doesn't have all the things necessary for GBA emulation, so the systems has to pull additional resources from elsewhere: aspects of the GBA hardware that the DS hardware can't do on its own, it's why the DS had GBA tech inside it. The 3DS only has DS tech inside.

So it pulls these extra resources to simulate, not emulate, the GBA environment. This means even sleep mode becomes disabled, because your 3DS effectively turns itself into a GBA, something it's not designed to strictly do. Hence no save states, your entire OS basically gets turned off to do it.

For a start I'm fairly sure the Switch would be capable of handling GC emulation given that's literally what 3D All Stars is. Also, to plays devil's advocate, the Switch SoC is effectively a 2015 part and there have been significant advances since then. I don't think hardware cost is that much of a barrier to a GC Mini.

The bigger barrier would be the perceived value of GC titles which I doubt Nintendo is going to want to eat into. Why release a GC Mini when they could sell a digital only Metroid Prime Trilogy for full RRP? Also secondly the cost of manufacturing GC controllers vs SNES/NES gamepads would eat into the potential margin. An N64 Mini would face the same issues.

I think a Gameboy would make far more sense.

They were ok but I wouldn't say they were "perfectly fine". Was far from the level of quality that I would expect out of a paid Virtual Console release. With that said I'd say the same about a lot of the VC on the Wii U VC....

3DS GBA games ran fine, but had no saves, no filters, and sleep mode was disabled while playing. Now, for an ambassador bonus that’s fine, but for a paid product, people would be saying things like, “I’m not buying these lazy cash grabs- the system just drains the battery when I flip the lid, rahr rahr rahr”

I think hackers figured out a way to patch in sleep mode, but it took years of work investigating how to do it.

As for GBA on Wii U, it’s quite simple really. The system was a flop and VC was an easy way to stifle the bleeding and get some consistent revenue coming in. I don’t think they did it because they wanted to. I think they did it because they felt they had to. Now that Switch is breaking records, I think they want to save those aces up their sleeve for a rainy day. Or to bolster the online service in years to come, or maybe for their next generation console. GameCube will be ripe for remasters and HD re-releases. They’re never going to release GC VC. I’ve accepted that.

But given the complaints about “ports” and “old games” I find it ironic to hear, in the very next breath, complaints about not enough ports of old retro games. I thought ports and old games didn’t matter? Or maybe people just like to say they don’t matter, until it’s a game they care about and suddenly they do matter... Every game has value. Ports may have inherently less value than a new game pound for pound, putting them at a natural disadvantage if all other factors were equal,, but there are so many other factors that come into play such as how good the game is, whether a person’s even played it to begin with, if they have, whether they want to play it again, what new value is brought to the table (such as hybrid advantage, gyro, new content, etc), and so on. And once you fully analyze all of these different aspects, you may find you’re far more interested in a port of an already released game than a brand new one. Hence why so many old games continue to sell. And if 30 year old games continue to sell on consoles that offer no additional value, how much more then will 10 year old games sell? 5 year old games sell? 2 year old games sell? 8 month old games sell? That have new content, new hybrid advantage and gyro aiming, and push the graphical boundaries of handheld gaming?

When people say they didn’t buy their system to play old games, well... some people did. I know someone who bought a switch for Skyrim, and another one who bought a switch for Diablo 3, and another one who bought it for Dark Souls, and another for Monster Hunter Generations Ultimate. Because at the end of the day, being an “older game” has little to no meaning if someone hasn’t played it, or has played it and loved it so much they want a hybrid version. All that said, it’s not like the switch only has ports. There are countless new games, and that list is growing at an ever increasing pace. By the time this generation is over I don’t think any Nintendo system will be able to compare, be it console or handheld. Of course, it’s not just about quality, but quality also. Switch has the best entries of most games in their respective series.

@Haruki_NLI I see, that makes sense. Yeah, it basically turns into a DS to play the GBA games. Guess this is why you see the "do you want to quit the game?" message on the touch screen when you press the home button. Thanks for the correction.

@skywake Really? Guess I only played them casually or something. I did play certain games longer than others, I will admit. (Example: I didn't play Mario Kart: Super Circuit that much since Mario Kart 7 was out.) It was admittedly some years ago, but I recall beating Yoshi's Island on it and I didn't notice any huge glitches or anything. I did notice that the display is kinda blurry, unless you hold down Start and Select when starting (original GBA resolution, but the display gets smaller). Not saying you're wrong, just wanted to offer my perspective.

@skywake Yes, it can handle SOME GCN emulation. But from a computing perspective, Sunshine is less intensive to run than Galaxy (which they had to half-port). I'd rank the selection below from easiest to emulate to hardest

1. Super Mario Sunshine
2. Super Mario Galaxy
3. Paper Mario: TTYD
4. Metroid Prime
5. Metroid Prime 2
6. Metroid Prime 3

Basically, if the Switch can't run Super Mario Galaxy full speed (again, without porting half the code to run natively), there's no way it's going to manage TTYD, or Prime Trilogy

Don't get me wrong, many GCN/Wii games are probably emulatable on Switch (Smash Bros Melee and Brawl, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess with a few ROM hacks, Luigi's Mansion, Donkey Kong Country Returns), but there are others that aren't. That's because the processing power to emulate the easiest GCN/Wii game to the hardest varies incredibly... usually because the hardest involve emulating tasks modern GPUs aren't built to be able to handle, and thus require many complex calculations.

@link3710
To be clear I don't think we'll see a GC Mini either my point was more that it's more a question of profit margin than technical feasibility. Especially when we remember that these mini consoles by their very nature involve some cherry picking of titles to put on them. And the fact that the Switch SoC can handle emulation for the vast majority of titles and is an SoC from over 5 years ago now.

I stand by my thoughts that the only reason Nintendo wouldn't want to sell a GC Mini including GC controller for lets for arguments sake say ... $150US? Would mostly be that they could sell a Metroid Prime Trilogy on Switch for $60US or port Wind Waker/Twilight Princess HD for $60US (either both or as a collection) and they'd fly off shelves just as fast and with a significantly greater margin.

A GameBoy "Mini" however? Nobody's really going to be interested in buying GameBoy games on their own. Not for a significant amount anyways. But they would definitely be interested in a GameBoy themed collectable that happens to play GameBoy games. Just look at how well the SMB Game and Watch did...