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Topic: Major Switch games which haven't needed any updates or patches at all

Posts 41 to 60 of 64

skywake

@rallydefault
If you stood back and thought for a second you'd realise the absurdity of asking "why patch minor issues" here. The complaint against patches from the people pushing this line is that "games used to release finished" and that "the quality must be lower now" due to "lazy devs"

And here we have a patch post release that add some minor fixes most people won't encounter. For a game that by all accounts was already a quality release. And you're asking why they're bothering.....

Perhaps because patches aren't as a result of lazy devs? Perhaps releasing this patch shows that the developer cares about the release and wants to fix these issues. That, despite the narrative from some, patches allow games to be of a higher quality than they would have been without them

I don't know, seems absurd to me for someone to ask why a game would bother to fix a bug in response to a comment complaining about people saying the existence of the fix is a sign of the game being "lower quality"

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An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

Lazz

I'm all for patching - certainly beats the days where game-breaking bugs make their way into the final code. In most cases, I don't view it as lazy. Some though...Aspyr seem to be downright lazy.

Nick

Matt_Barber

I'd think that most major games are just too complex these days to be released in a state where everything works and no patches are required. They're made by hundreds, often thousands, of people over the course of several years, and there are just too many interacting systems for QA testers to cover them exhaustively.

As such, developers are going to have a dedicated patch team that's still working on the game after launch. Typically, this is just for a few months, but in some cases you get to see games getting overhauled for a year or more. They have to be prepared to for the possibility that there's something major or even game-breaking, but if the only things they have to fix are minor bugs, rarely encountered by most players, that's what they'll do.

Matt_Barber

rallydefault

@skywake
lol dude...you still haven't answered my question. And that's all it was. A question. I never made a "complaint."

This clearly got under your skin.

rallydefault

skywake

@rallydefault
To be honest, it certainly does get under my skin when a certain group of people complain about patches. It's literally my day job to work through a list of bugs and features with the intent of producing higher quality software. Largely through patches and minor revisions

So when people question that and try to argue that this process is a sign of "lazy devs"? Of course it gets under my skin. Because the claim is a load of BS, and I should know more than most

And I did answer your question. They patched it because, despite what those people think, they actually care about the quality of the product they release. If they didn't they wouldn't bother with post release support at all. The game has already sold millions, they have their money, they don't have to continue to support it. But they are. And that's unambiguously a good thing

[Edited by skywake]

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

rallydefault

@skywake
Sorry, hit up the beach over the weekend.

You're still being weird with the "lazy" thing - you do realize I never said that, right? I never implied anything negative about the developers beyond modern patching being a "convenient" way to fix update games that are just becoming larger and larger. So maybe you're just using me as the punching bag? Dunno lol

Anyway, I still think your answer is weak, but that's my opinion. Minor grammar in the text and cool bugs that speedrunners could have used should have stayed in the game, in my opinion. Adds a bit of charm.

I don't think it has anything to do with the devs showing they "care" about the game with patches like this, honestly. I know they care about the game because I'm a sane person.

@Bigmanfan
Nice.

rallydefault

FishyS

rallydefault wrote:

Minor grammar in the text and cool bugs that speedrunners could have used should have stayed in the game, in my opinion. Adds a bit of charm.
.

Considering some of those bugs in the example we were just talking about (TTYD) made the game freeze or crash I don't think those would be very fun for speedrunners. And personally I care more about the 1 in a 100 or more normal players who get a bad experience because of un-patched bugs rather than the 1 in 10,000 players who are speed-runners who exploit bugs. And there are already plenty of creative speedrun categories without having to add a glitchless category; no need to make a game worse for some people just to add another category.

[Edited by FishyS]

FishyS

Switch Friend Code: SW-2425-4361-0241

rallydefault

@FishyS
Huh? I just re-read the patch notes, and I don't see anything in there about freezing or crashing.

And where are you getting 1 in 100 from, and what bug does that apply to?

For that matter, where are you getting 1 in 10,000 for people who like to speedrun games?

rallydefault

FishyS

@rallydefault Yeah, Nintendo games are often not very verbose in their patch notes; I think the ones they explicitly pointed to were very common ones whereas other bugs were shoved into Fixed a number of other issues. As for game crashing, there were reports of it happening occasionally so I'm assuming Nintendo fixed it. Also, a lot of the things on the patch notes still sound potentially very bad:

  • Fixed an issue preventing game progression
  • controls would no longer respond properly
  • battles would sometimes no longer progress properly

My 1 in 100 is clearly semi-made up, although I would argue more than 1 in 100 people are obsessive about correct grammar. But more generally, I guesstimated because once the number of players significantly surpasses the number of playtesters, bugs will be discovered; that's just how software works. if people only found insignificant bugs that are unclear if they are even bugs and didn't affect their gameplay, players wouldn't have reported them or perhaps Nintendo wouldn't have patched them. Fundamentally, the patch was because people did report things and they did affect gameplay or enjoyment.

And my 1 in 10,000 for speedrunnining was people so into speedrunnining they need a new speedrun category for one specific game and for some reason instead of just doing a restricted-items run (or whatever) they really want to use glitches. For a game which millions of people play and which honestly doesn't lend itself well to speedruns (the current world record for any% is over 8 hours), I would say 1 in 10,000 is a fair guess. Maybe it's between 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 10,000? Maybe it's even rarer? Doesn't really effect my point.

FishyS

Switch Friend Code: SW-2425-4361-0241

rallydefault

@FishyS
Well, I think making up numbers to make a point does affect your point. Making stuff up doesn't help build a solid point.

And you've really cropped those patch notes to make things seem more dire than they are. Your third bullet, for instance, actually reads: Fixed an issue where battles would sometimes no longer progress properly or status icons would no longer display during battles in cases where players played for a long period of time without closing the software.

Hardly the "crash" or "freeze" you were claiming in your first post.

The tube mode progression bug is the only one that stands out to me as something that needed to be patched, but even then there is no indication of how often this was occurring. Anecdotally, I haven't heard of people just running into it at all, and ever since I beat the game I've been watching tons of videos and reading lots of guides because I enjoyed the game so much.

So, yea, I do still think some publishers and devs needlessly patch their games when it would have been fine to just let some things through that hardly anyone was encountering, especially if it would mean the game stayed complete on the cart.

Bugs and glitches will always have a fond slot in gaming culture no matter what.

And yes, I definitely prefer Star Wars over Star Trek for exactly this line of thought lol

rallydefault

FishyS

@rallydefault As I said, I assume the crashes were in the 'number of other issues' because they were rarer. That said, I hadn't heard of the progression prevention bug before the patch notes but that one might be worse than crashing.

Also, there is a difference between guesstimating and rounding numbers based on partial data (we don't know how many playtesters Nintendo had for the game but we have stories in other situations) and full on making things up. I admit I did mean to add an 'e.g.' but apparently I messed up.

Regardless, it seems like inaccuracies in my statement which didn't affect the main point bothered you. 🤔 Maybe we need a patch!

The Star Trek versus Star Wars reference is 100% lost on me. But also, don't worry, Nintendo usually patches the big bugs and then stops. There will always be remaining bugs.

Edit: Humorously, I was reading an article a while ago claiming playtesters were destroying gaming by finding too many 'fun' bugs before a game was released. And to be fair, post-release patch based on player results are the same type of thing as pre-release patch based on playtesters. It is very consistent to either like or dislike both.

[Edited by FishyS]

FishyS

Switch Friend Code: SW-2425-4361-0241

PikminMarioKirby

@FishyS @rallydefault I accidentally froze TTYD a few times. If you hammer immediately after swapping your partner while a Pider is moving down it’s web on-screen, then you will be stuck in the hammer position and be forced to reset. It happened to me (even though this is oddly specific and I probably wouldn’t have encountered it if I didn’t play this game as much as I have been), but thankfully it’s patched (I checked in-game) so there’s confirmation!

TTYD also had a glitch where you could glitch past fallen tree early and it can get you stuck, but that was also patched.

Luigi’s Mansion 3 kept the legendary Gooigi Push, so Nintendo does keep some fun glitches!

[Edited by PikminMarioKirby]

Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Super Mario RPG, and Mario & Luigi Brothership all on one console is LEGENDARY

skywake

A bit of gass lighting going on here. There's very much an implication that patching games post release is due to lazy development. It's written all over the place

Hell, even you, while you're far from the greatest offender in this regard as others say it outright, certainly flirt with the idea. Saying it reduces quality control (and therefore quality), that it shows a lack of discipline, that there's less pressure (will get to that) to have things buttoned up tightly. Even putting air quotes around "convenient" which I think very clearly suggests you don't agree with it making things easier

rallydefault wrote:

At the root of this, it's the nostalgia for a time when a game was released and it just... was. [...]In a way, it was nice - it forced developers and publishers to be much more certain that their product was complete, working, and in a state ready to be shipped, reviewed, and (hopefully) be successful. [...]

Nowadays, there is less pressure to make sure everything's buttoned tightly because you can hotfix stuff pretty easily, which is... "convenient," I suppose. But it does remove an element of discipline and quality control, if we're going to be real.

My point was that this line of thinking is contradictory to the patches that exist for most games. Like the one for TTYD, which people were complaining about and I called out. It was clearly a case where a patch that is there for improving the quality of the game is being complained about. As if it suggests that the developer has taken the lazy, sorry, "convenient" path

To be blunt, this whole anti-patch view from some does nothing but highlight how little the average gamer understands about the process. And as someone who has an understanding of how the sausage is made it's just all to easy to pull apart. Not that people spouting this nonsense know enough to see that's what's happening

I don't know, I think the ire of gamers here is misdirected. They complain about a lower quality output from studios and in many cases they are right. But patches are not the cause, patches are a tool to combat it

The cause is the fact that games are huge software projects and one of the few that still have a hard release date. There's also a culture in that industry of long hours and pushing devs to the limit for the release day crunch. With many holding the purse strings being completely unwilling to miss release schedules. This has always been a problem for games (case and point ET on the 2600) and it is getting worse as games get bigger.....

.....but patches aren't to blame and games that get patches aren't somehow lesser

[Edited by skywake]

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An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

FishyS

@PikminMarioKirby The only situation I can think of where Nintendo kept continuously patching minor seeming things which appeared non-problematic and potentially entertaining was in Mario Maker... But that game has so many moving parts that they were probably afraid that one small bug would lead to your console somehow exploding if you made the wrong level.

FishyS

Switch Friend Code: SW-2425-4361-0241

FishyS

@skywake Patches are wonderful and most of us appreciate the work people like you do patching software. Fundamentally, so much software was so much less reliable and harder to use before patching became easier (I mean sending out patches in an automated way became easier, obviously making the patches is still hard work).

I feel like people have an odd perspective with games because it doesn't 'have' to function correctly. You might get sued or lose your job if some important e.g. finance computation is incorrect at work using buggy software, but no player gets in trouble if Mario randomly jumps through a wall. That said, I still appreciate the extra polish and community appreciation and patching helps that. Games which leave a major known bug always feels a little like they just don't care about the player (or massively lack resources).

[Edited by FishyS]

FishyS

Switch Friend Code: SW-2425-4361-0241

skywake

@FishyS
I think one of the more amusing things about the rose tinted glasses "when games released finished" bit is that old games did get patches. Sometimes for pretty significant bugs. It's just that the only way to distribute it was to get an entirely new cartridge or disc

There are plenty of cases where, for example, the original Japanese release had some bugs that were patched in the NA release. Or where there'd be a bug in the first run of a game that was patched in subsequent batches. Even when it wasn't a bug but rather content updates, where there'd be a whole new release to add an additional mode or feature or something

Obviously some publishers and developers abuse these tools and release clearly half baked, beta versions of their games. But the vast majority don't and even when they do.... I'd rather a free and automatic update than be forced to buy the entire game again in the hopes that they actually fixed it

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An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

Eel

Back in the day, Game Freak would re-release their game to fix the bugs, advertise it as a new special edition version of the game, sell it again at full price, and it would still have game-breaking bugs 😅

Now they at least fix most of the bugs for free.

[Edited by Eel]

Bloop.

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SillyG

@Eel : I never understood why the third versions were often lavished with praise considering how insubstantial any of the "new" content was. The fact that there were four versions of the Gen I games in Japan is bananas. Getting sequels in Gen V was such a refreshing change of pace.

Incidentally, there were no fewer than five versions of Nintendogs for the original DS.

Though I would still buy a revision of the Pokémon Gen IV remakes that reflects the changes made to the original version of Platinum in a heartbeat.

[Edited by SillyG]

Porygon did nothing wrong.
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skywake

FishyS wrote:

I feel like people have an odd perspective with games because it doesn't 'have' to function correctly. You might get sued or lose your job if some important e.g. finance computation is incorrect at work using buggy software, but no player gets in trouble if Mario randomly jumps through a wall

You know, I was thinking about this and it's only mostly true. Obviously yes, the stakes are obviously lower for games than most kinds of software. It's entertainment not life or death or contracts or a company wide loss of productivity. Even so, I can think of some examples at work where we've fixed a clear and obvious bug someone reported or improved the code in some way. But that the fix, while good, upset one client or another

Maybe they had some process or customisation that abused or leant on the bug in some way. Maybe they had become used to what it incorrectly did and suddenly it's doing the correct thing (both reasons why user acceptance testing exists BTW). Or perhaps it could just be that the fix, while clearly better, was also different and end users HATE different. Hell, maybe we made something now happen instantly and now they get duplicates because they are used to the "weight" of the action and think it isn't doing anything when it responds quickly

Obviously yes, if we stuff up something relating to contracts or pricing or anything like that? Huge deal. And then second tier very bad would be anything that causes data loss, downtime or significantly degrades performance. But even in enterprise software there is no shortage of bugs that people become fond of for one reason or another.....

.....but I'd argue if a bug has been sitting around for long enough that users get used to it and people start working around it that's not a good thing. Like drawing lines on the road to direct traffic around a pothole. The correct thing to do is fill the hole

[Edited by skywake]

Some playlists: Top All Time Songs, Top Last Year
An opinion is only respectable if it can be defended. Respect people, not opinions

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