Topic: Unpopular Gaming Opinions

That's my point. It's those other games that should be using a different word for something that's very clearly not death.

@Matt_Barber But they technically stop breathing. They're technically dead, unless you actually revive them with magic. Permadeath is effectively used when Healing Magic only heals, and doesn't revive. Heck, in Fire Emblem's normal mode, it's just being injured.

I don't have a problem with that in gameplay terms, as there's no requirement for mechanics to be realistic. However, I'd think that that's the sort of thing you need a new word for, not dying and not coming back.

Only a few of the recent Fire Emblem games have casual mode too. In the ones prior to Awakening, death is pretty much the end barring some exceptional magic with very limited use.

@Matt_Barber @VoidofLight I think permadeath is a useful word only if there’s a game mode choice between normal mode and this. No Man’s Sky has this, if you die even once you’ll be returned to the main menu and your save will be wiped. Fire Emblem’s way is interesting because in Normal Mode they just retreat.

I do like the idea of making it permadeath only for the final battle though. It can really change the dynamic of the story.

But I remember watching a Game Theory video on Phoenix Downs, I really don’t think you die in Final Fantasy games. For one if phoenix downs did bring people back to life then why couldn’t Cloud use one on Aerith? My theory is that Phoenix Down’s help you regain consciousness. Or that they only work within a specific amount of time for cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

@TheJGG That's true.. never actually thought about the instance where characters never really use them in the stories.

@VoidofLight If it did bring people back to life it would absolutely destroy various plots involving death. It would allow people to cheat it and thus makes a significant plot hole for the whole series...

@TheJGG True. So it'd make more sense if it were more just a tool to revive someone who got knocked out or something, with the enemies able to kill if the whole party gets knocked out.

@TheJGG That sounds more like an Ironman mode. You've generally got to be pretty good at a game before playing it like that and the Fire Emblem games are especially tough that way because of all the random elements in them.

In terms of weird RPG conventions, another one is how you can often run away from a battle with all but one of your characters knocked out, yet the survivor will someone managed to gather up all their bodies, revive them and heal them back to full heath - without even necessarily having any healing skills in battle - and collect all their weapons and items into the bargain.

I can get why games play like this, because it'd be a massive inconvenience if you had to deal with those kinds of setbacks whenever you lost or ran away from a battle. Still, it doesn't half stick out like a sore thumb whenever there's a plot point about someone dying or a key item gets lost or stolen.

@timleon I haven't played Valkyria Chronicles but that sounds like a good system. In my opinion it's much more enjoyable when games let you continue when you make a mistake, so you can adapt to the situation and try to fix it. So if FE had a mechanic like that instead of just 'oh no, a character died, time to reset' I think that would be a lot better.

And as you say, characters acknowledging deaths would be good too. I think part of the reason why most of us reset when someone dies is because it feels like something that's not supposed to happen: the character is either never mentioned again or, if they're an important character, they're just there as usual in cutscenes but you're supposed to believe they're severely wounded or something. If deaths and 'injuries' were more naturally integrated into dialogue, maybe players would be more inclined to let their mistakes stand and carry on without their fallen heroes.

Keep the permadeath so you can kill off all the waifus in Fire Emblem! ;p

It's a clever mechanic which I like and as others have said it's close to pulling off the intention, it's meant to make you care about your losses from battles but it not there just yet. Thing is with the last few FEs you have to replay them with slightly different routes so masterfully ensuring you playthrough to make sure everyone gets through means less as you still got to play the game another 3 times and see those other characters you like again.

@Dogorilla Nailed it on the head. It changes almost nothing so there's little emotional weight.

I agree that, as is, permadeath requires a level of commitment from the player to have the full effect.

I've been replaying Bioshock Infinite and I think it's the best of the three. It's bold and beautiful aesthetically, and the gameplay is tense and satisfying (i like the two gun limitation). I usually go for the first Bioshock, but it's really easy and the environments are a bit too similar for my liking. It's a game I often start but rarely finish.

@Losermagnet Perhaps I'm too much of a contrarian but Bioshock 2 was the best and damn anyone who says otherwise! ;p

All three are really great but the first thing that comes to my mind about Bioshock is the Big Daddies so in a way Infinite is the worse Bioshock game out of the three.

@jump Bioshock 2 has a serious fan base. I never cared for it myself. I played it once and havent really thought about it. I think it was the notion that there were still people in Rapture 8 years after the events of the first game. I can believe in a city at the bottom of the ocean, or in the sky...but that somehow people carried on for 8 years after the ocean already began reclaiming the city was too much for me.

I enjoy how Bioshock and Infinite mix fiction with history. I was reading up on the Boxer Rebellion and the Wounded Knee Massacre and it really added another dimension (pardon the pun) to Booker. There's a reoccuring theme that these thriving cities are built on the backs of people and you witness both the glory of the cities themselves and the blood that was shed as a result. It's that sensitivity that elevates the series for me, and I think Infinite does that the best.

@Losermagnet Yeah, the theme is rich in those games and it's what stop them from becoming hokey sci-fi stuff. 2 had an intresting but not fully explored idea of having "altruism" be the baddie's motive but tbh I just like the gameplay from 2 lot more than the others.

Did you hear the latest rumours about Bioshock 4? Apparently it's open world with side quests and that sort of thing. I'm not sure if I like the idea or not, maybe if the aproach is an everyman caught up in the city (which presumably is on it's downfall) to show off the little people and the "glory" of the city it could work.

@jump I wasn't even aware that there was a 4th game in the works. Who's developing? The open world thing could work well, but only as long as they don't lose their eye for detail. Take Bioshock for example: you can take the bathysphere to any district after your initial run of the area. Instead of the elevator maybe there'd just be hallways or roads. But I would hate to be plonked down in a big area, needing to climb a tower so I can have a bunch of icons show up on my map. Forget that nonsense.

@Losermagnet Bioshock 4 was announced a year or two ago. It's literally a new developer set up just for Bioshock 4. The open world stuff has come from them looking to hire people and mentioned things like open world in the advert.

I'm hoping you're just on a boat going to lighthouse to lighthouse and nothing else. ;p To be honest it's just too abstract at the moment and I need to see things before I can get excited or judge it but the potential is there for an open world Bioshock game to work really well.

@jump I googled it and, while there's little to no info, I'm approaching this with trepidation. I guess 2k has had issues getting 4 up and running for awhile, and Ken Levine isn't involved at all. Now, much like the stories in the games, no one man is responsible for these creations....but it sounds like 2k is wanting this to happen so they can use the name. That's me being pessimistic though. I don't think Levine was involved with 2 (although the staff that made it were involved with 1....i think) and even I know 2 is a good game. So we'll see what happens. Going from lighthouse to lighthouse in a boat might be the best we can hope for.

@Losermagnet Less about Bioshock and more in general, I know the vision of the artist is important and all but sometimes letting someone else take the reins is a good thing. Video game are a collaborative effort so it's just not this one person who made it great and someone like Shigeru Miyamoto still being hands on with Zelda after all this time would be terrible.

One thing that has stuck to me was how Batman developed, Bob Kane the creator did jack for it really and what really made Batman was the efforts of others like Bill Finger adding to it plus how the mythos grew is so weirdly great. Like they introduced Robin to appeal to kids, it's really is as simple as that but then those kids grew up and wrote Batman filled with ideas from reading it to fill the blanks in they had noticed for it to make sense to them like Batman is living through Robin, a happy smiley kid to make up for his own lack of happy chilhood and writes it in, then another kid reads it and fills in the blanks like why doesn't Robin hate Batman for turning him into a kid superhero so the kid grows up and writes Batman and has Robin ditch Batman to become his own hero etc. That is how it's grown for 10 decades where the lore has become rich from others thinking about it and adding to it over and over again to the point if there was a "Mountain Rushmore" for Batman the creator woud struggle to make into the top ten or even possibly top twenty names imo.

It's why I try to give things a chance even if a reboot/prequel/remake or whatever sounds pish rather than declaring it as "raping my childhood". Of course there's exception like I can't see anyone else doing Earthbound apart from Shigesato Itoi for example.

@jump Great example with Batman. Yeah, I'm willing to say that I don't know enough about what Ken Levine's style is (or what makes something a Bioshock game y'know?). It could be exactly the kind of turning point it needs to become an actual video game series. Considering Ken Levine is still with 2k and he's not working on 4, maybe he's done with it on a personal level. Might as well give it to other passionate people.

My first thought was of Suda51. He's so idiosyncratic that you can tell when he didn't actually direct games often attributed to him (Shadows of the Damned, Killer is Dead). Itoi is very much the same.

Edit: I looked it up and, while Itoi wrote it, he didn't direct Mother 3. It may sound like I'm full of it but I can kind of feel it when I'm playing.