Topic: Anime & Manga (NO SPOILERS PLEASE)

This question came up in the Tourney thread, so I may as well ask it here:

Why do so many of you guys dislike Mecha? Is it just because you dislike Giant Robots, or is there actually more to it?

I think its more coming down to how a lot of Mecha shows are too formulaic, just like how I dislike "fighting" shows nowadays because they are too formulaic for my tastes. Perhaps it is not as simple as that, but that's my guess as to why. Obviously not every Mecha or fighting show is as cliche or whatever as the rest, but they may be overlooked because of such a perception.

I don't know how I quite feel about Mecha, to be honest with you. It's not a genre I gravitate to, but I don't dislike it either. And I like to think that I haven't latched onto one or two genres at the expense of all others. I know I loved Gurren Lagann, liked Eureka Seven and Big O, thought Full Metal Panic and Blue Gender were okay and couldn't stand Evangelion.

I haven't a seen a real, honest-to-goodness Gundam series in a long time, though, which might help explain why I haven't become especially attached to the genre.

@Mickeymac I guess my prejudice (not exactly hatred) of mecha shows is that the mechas are going to be the device that helps achieve X's goals no matter what. To be a bit blunt and broad, it is ALWAYS the mecha.

EDIT: A good example of a show that isn't purely mechs is Code Geass. Say what you will about the quality, but the problems in the show weren't always solved with big robots punching each-other.

'

Formulaic...

Does that mean each episode is largely the same and too predictable or that it follows typical, logical story structure and stories and stuff? Because I strongly agree with you with the former and strongly disagree with you with the latter. Like, seriously. I hate series that have way too many samey episodes but I also hate this idea that using working cliches automatically means something isn't good. No, that often means it is a good story and doesn't mess around with worthless pseudo-intellectual nonsense. (although there certainly are some series that are far too typical without good enough characters or story to justify it)

I was kind of referring to both but I agree that cliches can work if used correctly. But much of television is too lazy to try hard enough to do that and often take the route of least resistance (in this case, explosions/violence, fan service and Moe'.)

This makes the most sense to me. This means that people's are lumping in Mecha, which is the serious side of the Giant Robot genre, with Super Robot, the fluffier and more formulaic, action-focused side. That's a common misconception, and I can't really blame anyone for that. V8_Ninja pretty much proves it by saying "Mecha is all about the robots." Mecha, or should I say "Real Robot" anime are rarely formulaic the way Super Robot anime are, and often focus more on plot and character development than action. While that isn't to say their problems aren't generally solved through violence, there's usually enough variation and creativity in the action and plot itself that keeps things from being predictable, at least in a good one. Heck, even a good Super Robot show does that, like Gurren Lagann and GaoGaiGar. Also, in a lot of Mecha shows, the good guys do not always win, where they'll sometimes be forced to retreat, or even lose someone important to the story. That helps make the action more intense when it is there, since you don't always know the outcome. One of the reasons I like Mecha so much is because of the cleverness in the action.

Of course, I've been trying to say that mecha shows are more than just giant robots saving the day. Often times there'll be plenty of time spent developing characters on both sides of the conflict, and developing a hardened story, filling it with political intrigue, historical parallels, and other things that make the story interesting. Side characters often have higher places than they do in other shows, especially in Gundam where they save the main's butt quite a bit, though it's still rare for any of them to matter as much as the main lead(s). The best example I can give is Gundam U.C., where out of 4, 60 minute episodes, remarkably little time is spent on the action (even though what action is there is fantastic). I'd say maybe 30 minutes total was spent on giant robot battles, while the rest is spent developing the characters, explaining the world, and setting up a fantastic, invigorating plot that has had me on edge since the start of the first episode. And then there's Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket, where there wasn't any Giant Robot action for half the episodes. Most shows that I've seen, though, are only about 30%-50% action in most of the episodes, although more time is spent on action in late-in episodes.

I know I can't change everyone's minds on Mecha, but at the very least, I'd like for you guys to not have any misconceptions. I really do mean it when I say that shows like Gundam have some great and memorable stories to them. Heck, in the Original Mobile Suit Gundam, damn near every episode left an impression on me, not simply because of its action, but because of the way its story is excecuted. I really don't care if no one, after reading all this, decides to give Gundam or any other mecha show a try. I really just hope that now you guys would have some sort of understanding when I, or anyone else does talk about one, just as do my best to understand you guys when you talk about the shows you love.

BTW, @Retro_on_theGo or anyone else interested in Gurren Lagann, despite being a Super Robot show, it ditches the standard SR Formula after, like, 6 episodes, which I think is one of the reasonse it's so great, especially after shows like GaoGaiGar already did a ton with original formula anyways. Hopefully more shows catch on to that...though I haven't seen any signs of it yet.

Just a quick update on my One Piece progress: my body was not ready for Sogeking.

I've really enjoyed the first four episodes of Pandora hearts. The story is intriguing, especially as it slowly reveals what's going on and the characters are very likable too. I also love some of the expressions in it. Because of how much I enjoyed the first four episodes, I want to nominate it for the best anime tournament but that would seem kind of unfair as I feel that I should watch more of it before nominating it for something like that in case the quality isn't maintained for long. I doubt that will be the case though. Also, I've been listening to some anime music and was reminded of how good Bleach used to be. If only, it wasn't so crappy after the first 3 series.

@FonistofCruxis, I agree with the Bleach sentiment. I had always thought it did admirably at it's role as InuYasha's successor (on Adult Swim, they premiered Bleach after InuYasha finished. I know they're not connected, lol), but then it went to crap after the 3rd season. There were times when it picked up a bit, but overall it just keeps falling. It's a shame too, because I enjoyed the first part so much.

Bleach gets awesome again after the Arrancar Arc, IMO. It's almost like he rebooted the series.

EDIT: Also, the seasons immediately following season 3 are filler, of course those are bad...

@Popyman I know that those are filler but I thought that the arc that followed those was crap too. Would you recommend I start watching it again if it gets better after the Arrancar arc then?

Which Arrancer Arc? The anime has 5 of them.

@RevolverLink: Really? Even though Sharpshooter Island is in your heart? (Lulu lala luu~) =P

@Popyman: You mean the Hueco Mundo arc? You know, the one where they have to rescue the dragon boobs from the villain who knew everything about the protagonist ever since he was in his mother's womb? Oh, yeah, it gets way better...

The only good parts of that arc are Chad's fight and Kenpachi's fight, maybe Ichigo vs. Grimmjow. I'd actually enjoy Bleach is Chad was the main character and Tatsuki wasn't relegated to keeping Chizuru away from Orihime and making Ichigo look like a total puss (also, Kenpachi and Yachiru show up on occasion to liven things up)...

@FonistofCruxis: I'd say you're better off dropping Bleach. Even if you skip the filler arcs and only watch the canon ones, you'll still be disappointed...

While I agree with the overall sentiment about Bleach's decline, I have to disagree on your fight ordering. Ichigo VS Grimmjow is undoubtedly the best out of the bunch. The Kenpachi one was good as well, but Chad's wasn't interesting at all, IMO.

I am talking about when the stupid crap with the Arrancars is over with completely, they are all dead, and Ichigo and co go back to the land of the living. I think it's called the Lost Substitute Soul Reaper Arc.

@FonistofCruxis: I think you should continue it. From episodes 343-366 (the anime actually ends with this episode, the manga is on its last arc) everything I loved about Bleach was back.

I agree that it's a great arc, but it's totally filler, and the canocal arc afterwards is horrible, at least in the manga (there's a reason Bleach is ending first...)

EDIT: I'm thinking of the Gotei 13 Invading Army Arc. Lost Substitute is canon. I'll have to see if it's any good.

even as a Naruto fan and someone who liked parts of DBGT I am dissappointed I was ever a fan of Bleach

SPOILERS

@RR529: To each his own. While I did enjoy Ichigo vs. Grimmjow (mostly for Grimmjow, even if his resurreccion was stupid-looking), it had too much drama with Orihime involved for it to top my list. Of course, the other two fights aren't without their flaws, like Kenpachi "getting used to Nnoitra's hardness" or his mighty TWO HANDS. Then there's Chad getting pummeled until he finally has his new power up kick in, which is followed up by him getting utterly stomped afterwards by someone who's at least five tiers above him. I like Kenpachi and Chad, though, so that's why I preferred their fights (plus, Chad's fight had that funky blaxploitation-esque music)...

@Popyman: Eh, the only part of that arc I enjoyed (and I use this term very loosely) was seeing Tatsuki again (yum), Unagiya Ikumi (again, yum) and Kenpachi's new design. But, hey, if you like watching Ichigo whine for almost an entire arc and two new Aizen-lites, that's your prerogative...

/SPOILERS

There are various things about Bleach that just put me off (I'm not even going to be counting the extensive amount of filler).

Way to many characters to follow - when you have so many characters to follow that you have to ignore the main cast for a 20+ episode stretch (when the Soul Reapers are fighting the Arrancar over Karakura Town), something's wrong. I like Toshiro, Ikkaku, Rangiku, ect as much as the next guy, but it to me, it was equivalent to DBZ having an arc following Tien, Yamcha, Chaotsu, and Master Roshi. I like the characters, but they're not the reason I watch the show.

Characters become uninvolved for far too long - partly linked to the other problem, I assume. They build up a character (like the Vizoreds who were training Ichigo, or Ichigo's dad when he came out and destroyed the Grand Fisher), but then they dissapear for about 50+ episodes (killing whatever hype they had built up), and then they suddenly show back up to remind you they actually exist. I know other shows have "interval" characters, but I can't think of any other shows that would exclude them for so long (the odd placement of filler also lengthens their absence).

Underutilization of Kon - if Kon is your comic relief, why the h*ll doesn't he get dragged along so he can you know, provide some comic relief (I'm sure it would be easy enough for them to get a normal mod soul for Ichigo's body, while he's away).

Odd naming of villains - the Hollows' home world is Heuco Mundo. Aizen's fortress is Los Notches. All Arrancar (and the terms Arrancar and Espada), all have a Spanish influence. So what, when a soul becomes evil, it becomes Spanish? Just seems silly to me. I know a lot of anime's do weird things (much weirder than this), but they usually try to explain the phenomenon. Not here, it's just like this, because that's the way it is. I know Kubo likes the Spanish language, but that's why I thought they had Chad. Building your evil world around the language without trying to explain it just comes off as very silly. I know the Soul Society (holding souls from around the world, i presume) has a feudal Japanese feel, but it's a Japanese show, so that should be taken with a grain of salt, as many animes do that.

Other odd tidbits - Soul Reapers are confused my some more modern amenities (juice boxes being a prime example from early in the series), but they can work cell phones and computers just fine. You can't have it both ways. Either have them completely stumped by modern tech and amenities, or have them completely adapted to the stuff. It just seems weird having Rukia not being able to open a juice box one second, only to have her pull out a cell phone the next.

OK, rant over, lol.