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polynomer

polynomer

Australia

Joined:
Sat 1st June, 2013

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polynomer

#1

polynomer commented on Precursor CEO - Shadow of the Eternals Support...:

@Einherjar I don't see how you can accuse me of fanboyism given that almost all of my posts are simply related to correcting false statements. False statements, which anyone, not just me--fanboy or hater--could have corrected.

No company just releases news as soon as possible. Apple (or Nintendo) doesn't announce the iPhone (or Wii U) as soon as they decide to make it, because details may change. Precursor could be working out the detail of some sort of deal now, or planning how to run their next Kickstarter campaign. Whatever confusion you're talking about, it's not related to this unannounced development, which will be announced in the next few weeks.

We've made suggestions on some ways to better get the message out on their forums. And clear communication will be important if this is to succeed. But one suggestion will not be, announce the new development and launch the Kickstarter before it's ready.

polynomer

#2

polynomer commented on Precursor CEO - Shadow of the Eternals Support...:

@indienapolis I wouldn't say that they've "let misinformation fester across the Internet". I would put it this way: they addressed these issues, but they were ignored and people don't seem to listen, as evidenced by, for example, how debunked ideas keep popping up on comments to SotE articles on this site. People like to make things up without evidence. On the particular issue of this article, the suggestion seems to be: make the announcement before the announcement is ready to be made. This is not a good suggestion.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." -Winston Churchill

If you've got suggestions on how they can improve communication, please share them.

polynomer

#3

polynomer commented on Precursor CEO - Shadow of the Eternals Support...:

@Einherjar Sigh. They said they will make an announcement about what these “new, exciting opportunities" are when they relaunch. How is that bad communication? What should they do in order that you consider it good communication?

Your complaint is essentially: "Apple is terrible at communication because they didn't announce the iPhone5, before they announced the iPhone5."

polynomer

#4

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@evanescent_hero Nintendo isn't funding them (as far as we know), because they haven't ask Nintendo to fund it (this was one of the questions in the Reddit AMA). But maybe, the "exciting announcement" for the relaunch involves Nintendo. We'll have to wait and see.

Comparing the Kotaku article you linked to the coverage of Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction in the lead up to the Iraq War is a perfectly legitimate and valid comparison. Both were based on unverifiable anonymous sources. It just goes to prove that sloppy journalism is serious business, and the consequences in some cases can be deadly.

polynomer

#5

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@DarkCoolEdge "Add to those two the fact that people don't trust Denis Dyack. He hasn't the reputation and following of Obsidian, Brian Fargo or Tim Schafer and Double Fine."

Brian Fargo? Has a good reputation? Really? The guy who founded Interplay, a company that is now effectively as defunct as Silicon Knights, and then when to start up a new company after the failure of Interplay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplay_Entertainment

polynomer

#6

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@evanescent_hero Oh great, now you've brought the debunked Kotaku article into this. That article is complete nonsense as Dyack explains here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm6gGFLMr_o

As he explains, he did not leave Nintendo because they were oppressive. He left because they wanted to make different types of games. Nintendo has been supportive of SotE. Nor did he siphon money from Activision to work on ED2. As he explained, Activision was able to monitor the work that was done.

That article is made up of unverifiable anonymous sources. The author of the article, admitted himself in an email, released by Dyack, that the article was rejected by more reputable outlets like Wired because of a lack of verifiable evidence. The author of the Kotaku article writes:
"The gaming editor at Wired, Chris Kohler, expressed significant interest in my draft. However, after discussing the matter with his managing editor, they've decided not to go ahead with the story in its current state. This is what he told me:

"There are a lot of serious allegations in the story, not least the idea that Silicon Knights is trying to scam publishers out of money and not deliver games. But there are no real facts, documentation, etc. to back any of this up besides the word of anonymous ex-employees."

Which is fair enough, of course. It is my role, as a journalist, to seek truth which can be confirmed with facts. And it is Wired's responsibility, as a publisher, to verify the truth of any claims before publication."
Source: http://www.precursorgames.com/forums/index.php?threads/denis-dyack-addresses-kotaku-allegations-vlog-plus-notes-references-posts-email.1465/#post-14733

But if you want to believe in journalism made up of nothing but unverifiable anonymous sources, without regard for their motives, then I guess you believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction too? After all, that's how the public was sold the lie that Iraq had WMDs, and so began the Iraq War. Those anonymous CIA sources were real creditable, as creditable as these anonymous Silicon Knights ex-employees.

polynomer

#8

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@element187 I just checked the Wii U Daily article. It's just speculation that they have a publisher now.

Although they said this, which is a perfect example of the suspicion and unproven rumor-mongering that I refer to in the above post:
"This takedown seems a bit shady even if Precursor managed to secure funding from a publisher, as neither the homegrown crowdfunding website nor the Kickstarter was anywhere close to receiving the amount of funds wanted. Precursor Games has received a bit of flak for how Silicon Knights ended and the shutdown of all its crowdfunding efforts brings them further into suspicion."
Source: http://wiiudaily.com/2013/06/shadow-of-the-eternals-kickstarter-cancelled/

How exactly is this particular move "shady"? Why does the shut down of a Kickstarter bring them "into suspicion"?

shady
shad·y
[shey-dee]
adjective, shad·i·er, shad·i·est.
1. abounding in shade; shaded: shady paths.
2. giving shade: a shady tree.
3. shadowy; indistinct; spectral.
4. of dubious character; rather disreputable: shady dealings.

Bad journalism.

polynomer

#9

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@Einherjar Again with the circular logic. Let me remind you of what you said:
"You need to get people excited and not worried that they only get to play one or maybe two episodes of a game and grieve that they spend money on an unsolved story. Thats why oh so many people on here (inclusing me) said, that they only going to buy this game when all of its parts are released. And since they are planning on using the profit from the released episode sales...there wont be enough. A concept like that is doomed from the get go."

Basically you say that this game is not worth supporting because they cannot guarantee that all of the episodes will be released. Hypocritically, you fail to apply the same logic to Harry Potter or The Hunger Games.

Then you talk about things like initial hype. But that's completely irrelevant to your point, which I quoted above, so please don't change the subject. By your own logic, there never should been any hype in the first place, people should not have supported these books in the first place, precisely because the author cannot guarantee that the series would continue and conclude.

Then you talk as if Precursor is "knee deep in debts". It's a new company.So where's the proof that their in debt. Here's the problem, people may not support this game because of rumors about Precursor. You've regurgitated these rumors. And the lack of support due to these rumors reduces support. It's a vicious cycle created by mostly (but not entirely) unproven and false rumors.

polynomer

#10

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@SuperMario2099 Yes, it only takes 1 counterexample to disprove a statement. So where's your counterexample?

It seems that you didn't read. You now say that "not a single link you provided contained a "fact" that stated Dyack was the reason it was pulled". Except I never said it was pulled because of Dyack. And you never asked for proof that it was pulled because of Dyack.

Here's what you actually said: "Since you say it "obviously failed because of all the unproven rumors about Dyack," I would like to take a page out your book and ask for PROOF!"

You asked for proof about the proposition that the campaign was failing due to rumors about Dyack, NOT for proof about the proposition that the campaign was cancelled because of Dyack. There's a big difference between the two. Because the campaign wasn't pulled only because it was failing. So don't change the subject.

Here's Precursor on why the campaign was pulled: "Along with this support has come a host of a new exciting opportunities that will make the game better than we envisioned. As a result, we have chosen to temporarily take down the Shadow of the Eternals crowdfunding campaigns [...] We’ll be re-launching the Kickstarter in just a few short weeks with a reveal of these exciting new developments."

You asked for proof that the campaign was failing because of unproven rumors about Dyack. I provided proof by linking to the torrent of hate that is fueled by these rumors.

You then change the subject to ask for proof that the campaign was pulled because of Dyack. I can provide no proof because it's false, the campaign was fulled because of new developments that will be announced in a few weeks, not because of Dyack.

polynomer

#11

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@Einherjar "Harry Potter was a hit, because it became a hit. If only a few people had bought the book and the sudden hype hadnt started, the series wouldnt have been completed."

Oh really? So you admit that Harry Potter was successful because people gave it a chance before it could be completed. Yet you refuse to give that chance to Shadow of the Eternals because it's not completed yet.

Nice circular logic you have there.

polynomer

#12

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@Einherjar So you say The Hunger Games is fine because it's a book series, but hypocritically somehow that argument doesn't apply to The Golden Compass (which is also a book series)? Then you mentioned that the cost of the first Hunger Games movie is 5 Euros. Well, the cost of the first SotE episode is $5 (3.82 Euros).

And I did debunk what you wrote. You made a claim about The Golden Compass that was wrong. I didn't just compare time with money, I also mentioned Game of Thrones (which costs money to watch), but on the point of time vs money, I point you to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

Your argument is illogical. If we all took your view, no one would have ever bought the Harry Potter books until all 7 of them were released (all 7 of them would have never been released if no one bought them before they were all released). After all, there was a chance that JK Rowling could have died in a car crash before she had the chance to finish the series.

polynomer

#13

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@Einherjar Now you changed your argument. Originally you said that the problem was their messaging--that it would only continue if it's successful: "It was said from the beginning, that hey will only continue the story, if the sales and revenue are high enough. People got instantly uninterested and the film flopped lika a magikarp."

I debunked that. And now the argument is the fact that they can't guarantee that all the episodes will be made.

You mention TV as being free, watching TV is not really free. It has an opportunity cost, and time is sometimes more valuable than money. Game of Thrones is not free. It's on cable TV. Are people watching that show dumb for paying for something that may not finish?

Nothing can be guaranteed, there was no guarantee that the Hunger Games movies would continue, yet people still watched the first movie.

polynomer

#14

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@Einherjar "The Golden Compass" most likely flopped because of the books atheist and anti-religion themes, and the protest of various Christian groups. The movie also didn't get much critical acclaim. It was also a result of New Line Cinema's deal to fund the cost of the movie in a way which required it to do well domestically in order to make it profitable. Ironically, the movie did not do well domestically because of the controversy related to religion, although it made a ton of money internationally. I suggest you read up on this, because you've misplaced the blame: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Compass_%28film%29

Also, it's a great set of books, I highly recommend them.

I fail to see how stating a TV show or a film series will only continue if it is financially viable should make any difference. It's obvious. Everyone already knows it. And since people have forward-looking expectations, they would have already taken this obvious fact into account. So whether or not it's said should be irrelevant and make no difference at all.

polynomer

#16

polynomer commented on Darkness Falls Early For Shadow Of The Eternals:

@evanescent_hero Well, it's obviously failed because of all the unproven rumors about Dyack. And how do you know that the "only reason ED was good" is because of Nintendo. It's as if Dyack, who was the director and producer of that game, had no input, and therefore the ONLY possible reason it was good, must be because of Nintendo.

polynomer

#19

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@Pestilence Dyack is part of the team, but he isn't in charge of Precursor. The CEO of Precursor is Paul Caporicci. Again it's not just Dyack, Ken McCulloch is also work on this, he was Art Directior & Content Supervisor on Eternal Darkness is also on the team and probably the most active developer on the forums. Check out this hour long interview if you want to hear from Dyack himself (as opposed to the internet rumor version of Dyack):
http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/115145

The game was not stolen as I explained in #34 here: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/06/shadow_of_the_eternals_unlikely_to_be_released_if_funding_methods_fail#comment1669644

polynomer

#21

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@9th_Sage I read it. It supports my argument. It says they could set it up in a way where they can keep the money even without hitting the goal. You accused them of possibly stealing the money, why then did you suggest an alternative mode of fundraising that lets them steal the money?


@SCAR392 It makes no sense for Nintendo to want this to fail specifically so that they can control this game. If they wanted to control the game, they would have offered to fund it subject to their conditions. Nor would Nintendo know that this would fail before it was announced. They've stated in the AMA that Nintendo is supportive of them making this game. Also the game will have sanity effects.


@Discostew Dyack is part of the team, but he isn't in charge of Precursor. Check out this hour long interview if you want to hear from Dyack himself (as opposed to the internet rumor version of Dyack):
http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/115145
If you look at it objectively, the game looks awesome. For example, here's what OpRainfall said:
http://operationrainfall.com/why-shadow-of-the-eternals-matters/
http://operationrainfall.com/interview-precursor-games-highlights/

Again it's not just Dyack, Ken McCulloch who was Art Direction & Content Supervisor on Eternal Darkness is also on the team and probably the most active developer on the forums.

polynomer

#25

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@WesGrogan I quoted Muzyka because of your statement: "Most developers know about Silicon Knights and Denis Dyack. They understand the hesitation on this one and see success with other kickstarters."

Look. I wouldn't have to make all these posts if people stop making up stuff, without evidence that are flat out untrue--lies. Like the fact that the game won't have sanity. Or like the fact that Precursor is SK's attempt at dodging a lawsuit. Or that we can't know what happened with the art sales despite there being court records. Or that Precursor could take the money from Paypal despite what happens with Kickstarter. Or that the PC version will come out before the Wii U version.

Let's be serious. It's OK to express reservations that are grounded in reality. It's not OK to make poop up without evidence as a lot of you have done here.

polynomer

#26

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@WesGrogan It's really not that different from a TV show or movie. The first thing you learn in econ101: everything has a cost, more precisely an opportunity cost. Watching a free TV show, costs whatever the most valuable alternative that you could have done with that time. So the comparison is valid. Do you avoid watching TV shows and movie trilogies for fear that they will be cancelled before completion.

Like I said this is a risk, but such risks exist in every form of media. And if you don't get all 12 episodes, then you won't have to pay for all 12 episodes.

polynomer

#28

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@Einherjar Stop changing the subject. You said "compete" not "compare". Also, you were completely wrong about this game not having sanity. Admit that you were wrong.

You wrote: "it had to compete with its spiritual predecessor and later, turned out to be nothing like it." You were wrong You made stuff up.

polynomer

#29

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@9th_Sage Did you read the Polygon article? Can't prove because it's their word? No. In the Polygon article, it says that there are court documents about the PC thing. So it definitely can be proved.

They already explained that it was difficult for them to start a Kickstarter because they're a Canadian company and Kickstarter is only possible if you have an American and UK presence. In their first podcast, they stated they got Kickstarter up after getting advice on how it could be done and that they had to go through the IRS (tax collection agency of the USA) despite them being from Canada.

As for the crowd funding on their sites. They stated at least 20 days ago that it will be refunded if Kickstarter fails (in fact they said it at the very start too):
“Some people may ask what happens to the pledges on our site if the Kickstarter does not move forward, and the answer is simple: We will issue refunds on our site if the project does not reach its goal on Kickstarter,” said Paul Caporicci.
Source: http://www.precursorgames.com/precursor-games-launches-kickstarter-for-shadow-of-the-eternals/

polynomer

#30

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@Einherjar It will compete with Eternal Darkness? That's the most outrageous thing I've heard. So people are going to go out and buy a Gamecube and Eternal Darkness because of this game?

That's like saying that Halo 4 competes with Halo 1. Or that Starcraft 2 competes with Starcraft 1. Or that Call of Duty: Ghosts competes with Call of Duty: MW3. It doesn't compete. No one will buy a Gamecube game because they don't make Gamecubes anymore and they don't sell Gamecube games.

Where was it stated that it doesn't have a sanity system? Source. Prove it.

In fact, it will have sanity. In fact, a whole subforum on the official forums is dedicated to community suggestions for sanity events.

From the Reddit AMA linked on this very article:
"Q: 2) Will the main part of the game puzzle, story or combat?
A: 2.)Balance of all, and a few more: exploration/discovery and of course sanity/alteration of reality."

That's the problem: People are just making poop up that are wrong and untrue. Without any evidence.

polynomer

#31

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@retro_player_22 It's 5 an episode (not 15) and 50 for the whole thing. Feel free to pledge on Kickstarter now.

Also, it's only announced for PC and Wii U. And why does it matter if it does eventually come out on other consoles.

Releasing it episodes means it will be released faster. There is no chance this game will be made at once. Hell, it's very likely won't even hit this goal.

polynomer

#32

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@9th_Sage I did read. You said: "Also, when I say 'shady things', I mean everything."

Everything. Then you went on to talk about the sale of assets from SK to Precursor because, you allege, they wanted to avoid the lawsuit. I already debunked this. I explained why this is implausible, and gave a source saying that Epic is aware of and OK with the transfer. So there's nothing dodgy here.

What else have you got? I said name one. You said everything is shady, so can you name one?

polynomer

#33

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@9th_Sage Everything else like what? Name one.

@WesGrogan Well, they do have a plan and budget to release future episodes. But it's no different from TV or movies. Do you avoid watching them because sometimes they get cancelled?

Yes, there's a risk that the game could get cancelled midway. But it's $5 per episode, so if it gets cancelled halfway you only pay half price ($30 for 6 episodes), also the episodes contain self-contained stories (which links to the overall story, like ED).

polynomer

#34

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@Peach64 Maybe they're doing the crowdfunding thing because they don't want to lose creative control to a publisher.

Do you really think a mainstream publisher would let the 2 main characters of episode 1 be evil, murderous lesbian lovers (yes, they really are lesbian lovers)?

Do you think a publisher would pick this up given that ED sold less than a million, despite critical acclaim?

polynomer

#35

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@9th_Sage See #34

"Epic Games attorneys filed legal motions after Silicon Knights sold its computers to Precursor Games in July 2012, asking the company to verify that it had formatted all of its computers, ensuring that Silicon Knights' game engine and assets had not made their way over to the new company. According to a court document, those computers were all wiped clean before they were sold."
Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/9/4316936/silicon-knights-epic-games-precursor-games

What else is shady?

polynomer

#37

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@Nintenjoe64 So I can't just be a fan of ED who wants to see this awesome looking game made. No, I must be a paid shill because I disagree with you.

Well, making things up without proof does seem to be your MO. You claim that SK has spun assets off to a new company to avoid paying for a lawsuit. But where's the evidence? Prove it.

Let's review the facts.

Firstly, Precursor games was created by Paul Caporicci who wanted to start a new company after being fired, so it wasn't masterminded by Dyack to avoid playing a lawsuit.

Secondly, you are accusing Precursor of a fraudulent transfer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraudulent_transfer This is something illegal, so would Epic now sue them to recover that money? It's not so smart to make a fraudulent transfer and then reveal it to the world by a public Kickstarter campaign so that Epic's lawyers know exactly where the money is, is it? So since you've accused them of illegality and deception, why don't you tell me what their master plan is, given that Epic now knows?

Thirdly, Epic is fully aware that Precursor bought assets from SK. In fact, they have no problems with it:
"Epic Games attorneys filed legal motions after Silicon Knights sold its computers to Precursor Games in July 2012, asking the company to verify that it had formatted all of its computers, ensuring that Silicon Knights' game engine and assets had not made their way over to the new company. According to a court document, those computers were all wiped clean before they were sold."
Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/9/4316936/silicon-knights-epic-games-precursor-games

They're not suing Precursor. But according to your claim of illegality, they should be, so tell me why aren't they?

Lastly, your claim about Nintendo is also bogus. Here's Shawn Jackson from the AMA:
"Q: Have you spoken to Nintendo about funding the remainder of whatever you don't raise? Seems like they would be itching to have an ED successor/mature title on the WiiU.
A: We have been in constant communication with Nintendo and they have been supportive but we have not spoken to them about this particular avenue."

If this is a lie, why doesn't Nintendo say so?

polynomer

#38

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@retro_player_22 If they released in 1 part instead of 1/12 parts, then it would obviously take roughly 12 times as long. So episodic would make it release 12 times faster. Also where are you getting this idea that the PC will be released before the Wii U version. As far as I can tell, that was never stated anywhere. Citation?

polynomer

#39

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@9th_Sage Dyack isn't in charge on Precursor Games. Tell me how specifically there is anything shady between Precursor and Silicon Knight?

If you look at the game objectively, the gameplay footage and the videos about the game since then, Eternal Darkness (since SotE will be similar to it) it looks awesome.

polynomer

#40

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@DarkCoolEdge The fact that it's episodic means that it will be cheaper (What other Kickstarter gives you a game for $5?) and it will be released sooner. Dyack isn't running the show, he's not in charge of Precursor. Objectively the game looks great, just look at the gameplay footage and all the videos that have been released since.

polynomer

#43

polynomer commented on Shadow of the Eternals "Unlikely" To Be Releas...:

@Einherjar What are you talking about?

"it had to compete with itsits spiritual predecessor and later, turned out to be nothing like it" WHAT?
How does it have to compete with ED? ED is a Gamecube game. So now 2014 games have to compete with 2002 Gamecube games?

And nothing like it? What are you talking about. It's a spiritual successor to ED. It has an episodic structure with many characters throughout history, like ED.
You have no idea what you're talking about.