Forums

Posts 1 to 18 of 18

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

Kinoen wrote:

@Pod
...Cpt. Falcon's vehicle is in the game, do you not like that?
...the bike seems standard, no stats showing it OP.
...Look at poor Samus!

Since the game borrows as heavily from F-Zero as is the case, I could maybe string along with the inclusion of the levels and the Blue Falcon. But I'd really rather they didn't, and I certainly wouldn't enjoy seeing Cpt. Falcon himself in there.

Concerning the Epona Bike, maybe I just suck at building bikes, but I feel like I need it to both have proper speed and acceleration when playing lighter characters on bikes.

Haha, true about Samus. She doesn't even get to be in her own latest spin-off. And she was relegated to being a friggin' ball in the pinball game. I'm not saying the other franchises can't have spin-offs, but they shouldn't be mooching off Mario's, just because it's popular. I'd rather see the creators spend the energy on inventing something interesting that could feed back into the Mario franchise.
You won't suddenly be hanging out with Isabelle in Mario Odyssey just because she was in MK8, if you know what I mean. Whereas someone like Waluigi, while not exactly making it to primetime yet, has gone far beyond being the silly Mario Tennis 64 extra he was created to be.

Alright alright. Thanks for a fruitful exchange of pleasantries, man.

Edited on by Pod

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Eric258
Mostly talking about it not appearing in the menu. But since I don't own Deluxe myself yet, I hadn't actually been made aware that the Mercedes karts were still in the game. And now impossible to remove, I assume? That's a real bummer for me. They have no place in the game.

And I'm ultimately okay with Birdo not being included. I'm not saying Nintendo owe me to include the scaley darling.

@Kinoen
Yes. I am against the inclusion of guests from other Nintendo series in Mario Kart. Particularly when they bring their out-of-place quirks with them, like Isabelle's stylized beams and bleepy voice, or they bring their overpowered trash, like the Epona bike, which outpaces most other cycles in a way that means you HAVE to use it for some builds to be feasible.

Now, I do think they handled it in a reasonably tasteful manner. And I'm not smitten with kittens either. But I'd rather have had Birdo, Waluigi, and ANY MARIO CHARACTER EVER, be it Boom Boom or Pom Pom, Pauline, or even E. Gadd, than have Villager, Isabelle, and Link.

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Kinoen
I wouldn't really say that planning ahead to meet dealines and stay on budget is cutting corners. I'd rather that happen than my game be limited by the developer running out of time. That will lead to unpredictable omissions. And I don't think anyone is taking up 'slots' from anyone else. MK8 has the largest roster in series history, but likely only because some of the additions were easy to make. It's not like we could have a different character that would take much longer to make if Pink Gold Peach wasn't there. We'd just have one character less.
Which also ties back in to your your earlier point about skins vs clones. The clones are likely included because two people can't use the same character with different skins. If four kids all wanted to play as the babies, they now can. Clones also allow the weight class to change. PGP is heavy weight just like Rosalina, so people who like playing as Peach can match the performance of a rival.

It's all about how much functionality they can give you while staying on budget, is how it seems to me. If MK8 only had eight playable characters like Super Circuit, and only had Mario and the Koopalings, then maybe I'd be willing to talk about someone replacing others in terms of slots.

My dilemma ended up being that I liked Wendy Koopa as a design a lot, but being lightweight meant I had a hard time building a good bike for her that suited my playstyle. So now I play with Isabelle, because I like her, but she really doesn't sit well with the rest of the cast.

I don't want Mario Kart to become Super Smash Kartz, so rather than accusing Nintendo of being lazy, I'm accusing them of sacrificing product integrity with the guest reps like Link and the AC characters, even if I know they needed an edge to make the DLC enticing. Because the DLC itself was imposing in a terrible way, with locked character visible every time you were on the selection screen.

What else was terrible was the Mercedes content. Yeah it was free, but it was so ugly, and you could 't make it go away from the menu. At least you didn't HAVE to dowload it. And at least it's gone from MK8 deluxe.

Edited on by Pod

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Kinoen
I think ultimately we agree here about a lot of things.

Though I think Nintendo won't and shouldn't include all previous characters in future MK games. I also think they shouldn't just keep adding to the roster in Smash Bros.

It's not about what's being taken away. It's about focusing on what's being added.

And we did't agree that they only change one thing in new Mario games. I didn't say one enemy or obstacle between games, but one new enemy obstacle introduced per level. Every single level, throughout all of the games. Even in NSMB, the level layouts are the actual content, and all the games have completely different levels. Over a hundred new "things" as a combination of obstacles, enemies, or power-ups, are introduced with each Mario game, and each given a unique level layout to showcase them.

I will give you New Super Luigi U, which was sort of an expansion pack. It didn't bring new obstacles or enemies, but it did have it's own levels, albeit shorter and more challenging. It was also sold at a reduced price. Personally, I think it should have been free, and because I am an angry old man, its existance as a paid item meant I opted out of buying NSMBU altogether.

The explanation for the variation characters in MK8 is naturally that they're less time consuming to make, when they already make all seven Koopalings and several other newcomers. They're boring. Yes. I'd rather have Birdo instead of more babies or metal heads too.

And as you say, with MK8 Delux just being the same game, we might end up having to wait another five years before we even have the possibility of seeing the ribbon-toting triassic again.

But that's part of what gives the three games that DID feature Birdo their own product identity. I sometimes want to play Mario Kart Wii again instead of 8 for several reason, one being the inclusion and design of some courses, but also because of Birdo. And it's not a bad thing for Nintendo that I want to replay and remember their past games.

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Kinoen
Characters are what players identify with, which is why you're personally upset about the absense of Birdo. So changing the roster IS a big deal in giving a game a personality.

The amount of work going into a character in Mario Kart is not exactly miniscule compared to Smash Bros. But it is indeed less work for the animator, and the characters don't require hitboxes at all.

Concerning whether you feel punished for Nintendo opting to create ten new characters that you might not care for, and then give us goop like pink gold Peach, I'm afraid that is always going to be the case in this discussion. Someone always feels left out. Imagine if you had a thing for Wiggler, King Boo, or Queen Bee. If you're inclined to feel like a victim, Nintendo's decisionmaking is bound to feel like punishment to you. I miss Birdo too. I hoped for a return with the DLC too. But I bought the game knowing my favorite pink egg spitter wasn't in there, and Nintendo doesn't owe me anything.

Personally I wouldn't compare Witcher games with 2D Mario and Mario Kart, as the idea of what constitutes content is quite different. And it's straight up incorrect to suggest that only one thing was changed between interations of New Super Mario Bros.

Returning to the concept of product identity, Nintendo can't resell Mario Kart 8 fifteen years from now on being the one with the Koopalings if every game after also has the koopalings. Likewise, Nintendo can't prioritize adding Paper Mario characters the next time around if they have to remake every single character from previous games, and even if they wanted to, that would mean people don't pay as much attention to the new additions.

As you say yourself, the game is not actually about the characters. So any proposal that makes characters more expensive as an item on the production list, or would take away attention from the new initiatives in the area is going to be throroughly scrutinized.

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Kinoen
I can only refer back, to the fact that Nintendo WANT the games to feel different, so they deliberately remove characters. That itself is a large part of the answer to your "why".
And -I- certainly feel the character select screen in Smash has become a mess. And I'd like for the same not to happen to Mario Kart.
Lastly, the keyword in "practically stationary most of the time" is "practically". The characters are still fully modelled, textured and rigged, even if they're only animated sitting on/in different vehicles. It's still a lot of work.

Ultimately, I can see waht you mean, but I think most series fans are more upset about the absence of previous tracks than previous drivers, as these are more essential to the gameplay experience. And the answers as to why they aren't present are the same. Workload. Focus of the user experience. Product identity.

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Kinoen
I'm not saying Mario sticks out more. But they had to model, texture, rig, and animate him again to make Mario Kart 8, because they fidelity is higher than ever, and the art direction is more on point than previously.

If they were to have had every single previous driver available in 8, the impact of all seven koopalings being present would not have been as big, and the character selection screen would have been a mess.

I'm not sure I think Smash Bros. is a good example of why everything should have been in the game. It's incredibly expensive to recreate all the characters in the roster, very difficult to balance it all, and challenging to make a coherent art direction work out. I personally don't think they achieved any of this very well in Brawl or 4., and I certainly don't hope to see all the Fire Emblem characters become mainstays.

I think it is a good thing that certain features are left behind in older versions of games, particularly if the art direction changes as well. Who misses tripping from Smash? Or having to get a Smash Ball to play with Zero Suit Samus? Those were purposefully removed, and so were a bunch of stages as well.

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Kinoen
I get where you're coming from, but a Mario Kart with every dingle driver that had ever been in the series would feel very unfocused. And players wouldn't notice the new additions as much as any game director would like. Which again goes back to giving each entry a personality, so that you can sell what's essentially the same game again.

But I feel you. I'm a huge Birdo fan myself, and I was very disappointed to see the fella left out again. Particularly when we get jokers like Link, Villager and Isabelle.

And while you're right that Mario 2D games sometimes feel similar, it's really only the framework, largely. With the last many 2D Mario games, it's been a thing that every single level should contain one new enemy or obstacle. And many many enemies and obstacles get left behind with each new series entry.

Kuribo's Shoe, a fan favorite that only ever appeared in two Mario Bros. 3 levels NEVER returned, not until Mario Maker. And quite many things don't carry over between the New Super Mario Bros. games either, even if they are visually very similar.

So Nintendo really does do it all the time, leaving out established features, so that people will notice the new ones, and so the older games will retain value, both in terms of the memories people have with them, but also so that they really can be repacked and sold again many years later, as has been the case with GameBoy re-releases of console classic and naturally with Virtual Console.

Edited on by Pod

Pod

Re: Still no Birdo in MK8 even with Deluxe?

Pod

@Kinoen
The qeustion of why not to keep them all in is easily answered:
The amount of work that would go in to that, AND the fact that Nintendo deliberately want the games to feel different.

All characters and tracks were remodeled for Mario Kart 8, as you are aware, and the game already has the largest selection of both in series history.

Making more characters would be costly.

And the second reason is that Nintendo always decides on things to leave behind with franchise iterations, so that a certain version of a game gets to be the one with THAT track, or THAT feature.
I can guarantee you that Mario Kart 8 gets to be "that one with all the koopalings". And maybe even "that one with anti gravity," should they opt out of including that in the future.

Just like Double-Dash!! was "that one with two racers on one kart".

Product identity is important for long running franchises, so that games don't ever feel 100% obsolete.

Pod

Re: Undertale

Pod

Currently playing Undertale myself, whenever I actually manage to boot up a game on my PC.

It really would feel right at home on Nintendo systems, I hope it's going to be a thing.

Pod

Re: What if Link is gender neutral?

Pod

Generalizing isn't sexism.

It's at most offensive to those who do not feel included. Even these people are often aware of the validity of a generalization, though, and can decide for themselves if they want to be offended about something that does not concern them in the first place.

Pod

Re: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

Pod

They have basically EVERYTHING to lose from making it optional.

Or at least, from making it anymore optional that it already is.

Not including it with the system would mean new adopters couldn't play the GamePad centric games released so far. The situation would be much worse than already.

The GamePad is not merely a controller. It's an integrated part of the system, and people are going to have to deal with that.

Pod

Re: Brian Altano from IGN: Wii U only owners are A-holes

Pod

I'm not watching those four stroke their own egos for twenty minutes.

I'm sure Altano has some kind of point strapped to that statement. The past seven years, IGN have been eating up all the activity that Wii hatred has generated for them like hungry dogs, and they aren't ashamed to nurture it, but usually their editors don't make baseless brash remarks about large portions of their audience.

Pod

Re: Anyone up to making a game?

Pod

I am a 3D modeller and concept artist. I'd like to do a little couple somethings for the project.

Check me out on pm-portfolio.blogspot.com

Pod

Top

  • Pages:
  • 1