The year was 1991. My dad had gone to now-defunct UK electronics retailer Dixons and purchased a Sega Mega Drive with Castle of Illusion for the princely sum of £144.99; I know this because I still have the receipt stapled in the console's manual. Beyond a dusty Atari 2600 which resided at my grandparents' house, the Mega Drive was our first console and Mickey Mouse’s adventure was a fine introduction to video games. With SEGA dominating the UK market at the time, there were plenty of other games I had my eye on. Sonic was an obvious choice, and Golden Axe looked amazing to my impressionable childish eyes. I laid out my proposals for our next potential purchase and one day dad came home with a brand new game tucked under his arm. Could it possibly be? Would I be cutting my way through the evil hordes with a heroic weapon, sharp and true?…
Not exactly. Unfortunately, my old man had bought Sword of Vermilion and my disappointment was impossible to hide. He'd apparently been impressed by the label on the box advertising ‘5 MEGA MEMORY with battery backup’ and ‘106 PAGE HINT BOOK INCLUDED’. Yes, the game boasted three save slots! That was impressive at the time, but hardly enough to excite a kid eager to hack and slash with a golden axe.
I played it, of course – any video game is better than no video game – but an RPG wasn’t what I was after and I was a bit too young for it. The comparative complexity of the game coupled with my apathy meant I never got far, and over the years it grew in my mind as a mountain; forever there, taunting me with its stupid save slots, primitive first-person dungeon sections and random encounters.
So, feeling I had a score to settle, a few years ago I decided to go back and conquer it. Traditionally I would have bristled at the idea of using a guide, but this one came with the game itself and that somehow legitimised it. In my head I had to beat this game ‘properly’ or not at all and for a long time I’d seen save states as a easy way to cheat your way to victory. No, I was going to summit this peak without any of those 'cheap' aids!
The problem was that Sword of Vermilion is filled with random enemy encounters and the reality facing me was stark: either use save states or never find the time to finish the game. Faced with that choice, I ultimately decided to use them, and I was very glad I did. While not a classic, Sword of Vermilion has some great writing, atmosphere and music which I'd have missed completely had I been too stubborn to use the mod cons retro gaming benefits from these days.
This got me thinking about my instinctual reaction that save states are somehow a form of ‘cheating’. The obvious convenience of them still rubs up against my old-school sensibilities now and then, although it’s odd that I didn’t consider the guidebook or the save slots in the game itself to be ‘cheap’.
No developer would dream of re-releasing a classic title now without some concession to convenience. All the NES games included with Nintendo Switch Online or the Classic Mini consoles have up to four 'suspend points' to use, and so they should. We're seeing time-saving systems coming to more and more games, both old and new. Rewind features can be found in games as diverse as Forza Horizon 4 and the Mega Man Legacy Collection, and they're a godsend in modern times with so many games and so little time. They're especially helpful in titles we’re playing for ‘historical’ value. You might be playing through one of those Mega Man games simply to ‘complete the set’, so to speak, even if you’d maybe prefer to be playing another one in the collection. There’s often a strange allure to certain games; significant artefacts that we feel we ‘should’ play, even if we’re not naturally drawn to them.
Ticking off the last few Zelda games I'd missed is one example that comes to mind. I’d never have had the patience to go through The Adventure of Link without save states but, again, I’m happy I did so. The Oracle games dragged a bit and I probably should have taken a breather after the first one, but carving out time to play them on original hardware is tough these days – save states on 3DS meant I could play and enjoy them in a much shorter period.
Castlevania II: Simon’s Quest was something else I felt 'obliged' to play. Natural curiosity aside, I often felt a certain ‘duty’ to expand my knowledge of the medium even before I wrote about games for a living. It’s the same with any artistic medium – literature, music, cinema – and I wanted to gain a more rounded sense of the Castlevania series. Like visiting a museum, there's a wealth of information and context to help you understand modern mechanics, not to mention old games are often fun!
Simon’s Quest is notoriously obtuse, though, with some villagers providing false information and localisation errors compounding the confusion. Back in the day these liars helped make sure you got ‘value for money’ by not completing the game in one sitting, but nowadays when time can often be more valuable than money, the game’s convoluted design is a huge barrier to entry. Simply put, I reached breaking point and would never have stuck with the game without save states. They enabled me to spend enough time in the world for the game (and its incredible music) to work its magic. I now look back very fondly on Simon's Quest – all thanks to save states.
And walkthroughs too! Another self-imposed taboo I’ve learned to overcome, the ability to save snapshots would have been little help if I didn’t know that I had to kneel in front of the cliff with a crystal to proceed. Again, it’s strange that I never considered the 'hint book' that came with Sword of Vermilion a ‘walkthough’, simply because it was included in the box, but it’s absolutely a comprehensive guide. No, no, that wasn’t cheating, I told myself. Totally legit. I'm a gamer, me!
Looking back, my mental gymnastics are laughable now, but I’m sure some readers will find those thoughts familiar. It’s not something we have to contend with much nowadays; walkthroughs are often entirely unnecessary with modern games. There are certainly games that buck the trend, but typical AAA releases now are paranoid about losing you to some other game or form of media. If you have to consult your phone to find out what you should be doing, there’s a risk you’ll get distracted and not return, thus newer games have become very ‘hand-holdy’. Old games had your undivided attention, often for hours, days or weeks on end. Unfortunately, I don’t have an entire summer to devote to Final Fantasy anymore. For shame!
It’s also important to remember that all these modern conveniences are optional; the original challenge is there for those who want it. They're also unique to video games. Want to tick Tolstoy's War and Peace off the ol' bucket list? There are very few shortcuts for that one, I’m afraid – perhaps a different translation might shave some pages off, or you could listen to the audiobook in the car. It’s still a hefty investment, though, and the Cliffsnotes version won't cut it. Save states, rewinds, walkthroughs – these are different. They aren’t abridgements, they simply make the game more accessible to those who need a hand, in a way only interactive media can.
Despite ‘evolving’ to accept and appreciate these modern conveniences, there’s still a remnant of that boy in me that won’t let go of my preconceptions. I’ve found exactly 742 Korok seeds in The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, and I’d find two or three every time I played the game until recently. Discovering these meaningless trinkets on my own has been an absolute joy as I’ve explored Hyrule, but my last few sessions have been fruitless (or seedless). I’m loath to resort to a guide because I just need a nudge in the right direction, and where’s the fun in simply ticking boxes?
What I really want is for Nintendo to release the rest of the Korok suit 'set'. Some Korok trousers and a top would combine with the mask and give me the power to identify zones on the map where Koroks are still hiding. Not the exact spot, mind – I’ve got the mask to help me there – I just want to rule out areas on the map, to be pointed in the general direction. I’d much prefer to do it in-game, not sit there comparing my map to an online guide.
Rather than lapsing into my old way of thinking, I actually see this as simply wanting to wring every last bit of enjoyment out of the game. I know the reward for finding all 900 is rubbish – that’s not really the reason I’m searching for them. I just want to play the game more and the stupid gamer in me needs a tiny reason to do so. Plus, I don't want the hassle of scrubbing through videos or navigating through umpteen pages on my phone or laptop to compare my map to theirs. Still, I'll probably resort to an app or something if I have to.
It took me an embarrassingly long time, but I’ve ultimately come round to seeing these aids as simple tools to help climb retro peaks. They're not conveyor belts to the top of the mountain, but rather ropes and oxygen tanks and decent gloves to help the ascent. We can look back and admire those who went before us, scaling those heights with nothing but a pair of long johns, a hip flask and a lustrous moustache, but using the modern conveniences at our disposal shouldn't diminish our achievement or, more importantly, our enjoyment nowadays. The view from the top is the same however you get there.
Overall it’s much better to play with a walkthrough or save states than to never play a game. I’d have missed out on some brilliant stuff, otherwise. With age it’s gotten easier to extract the good bits from any media and not worry about the parts that didn’t work, so if these ‘cheats’ help me do that, fantastic. Fun is the goal, whether that involves dipping into a game for 10 minutes or methodically working through the backlog – whatever makes you happy. For me, it takes discipline and constant reminders that my mountainous backlog is a self-made Everest, just as defeating Sword of Vermilion was. With all the resources and tools at our disposal, it’s never been easier to conquer them.
Have you ever suffered from the same affliction? Are there any personal demons in your back catalogue you've taken on in recent times? Share your thoughts on save states, walkthroughs and rewind mechanics below...
Comments 76
It's the only thing that can make Zelda II halfway playable, that's for true.
I think there's something to be said about conquering skill-based games without reliance on external aids or crutches that were added after the fact, and I do think it's a greater achievement to, say, beat a game like Mega Man or Ninja Gaiden without abusing save states. One requires dedication and the sharpening of one's memory and reflexes. The other requires nothing more than a lack of pride.
With that said, I've also come to the conclusion that it's better to enjoy a game with outside help than play it "the way God intended" and hate its guts. I've found I CAN'T enjoy a game like the original The Legend of Zelda without making use of a walkthrough and a detailed map, and, honestly, that's OK. I've never been of the opinion that getting lost for hours is a rewarding or pleasurable experience. Even if you know exactly what to do, the challenge of execution is still there, and that's enough for me.
Regarding games that are pure tests of skill... I don't think a person save-scumming their way through something like Mega Man or Ninja Gaiden will appreciate those games as much as someone who puts the time in to learn them, but if that's the only way someone can find to enjoy the game, then who am I to judge them? Same logic applies to the Rewind feature in the Mega Man Legacy Collection. And besides, I've found that I also rely on external aids when playing old Mega Man games I'm not hugely familiar with to figure out the boss order. I find nothing legitimately compelling about throwing myself at bosses over and over until I luck into finding the weak one that you can easily defeat with the mega buster. And then repeating that same tedious process until you figure out the boss that's weak to your new weapon. Again, the challenge of execution is enough for me.
I will state, for the record, that I see nothing wrong with using save states to enter and exit a game when you need to. All games, ideally, would allow this, and forcing the player to go long stretches of time without saving only makes the experience artificially difficult. The only exception that comes to mind with this is games with survival and resource management elements, where learning to "plan" is part of mastering the game design. I wouldn't want to be able to save anywhere in Resident Evil.
I love these kind off articles, thank you Gavin. This is one of the best if not the best article i've read since the Game Boy Anniversary articles. IMO we need at least two or three of these a week.
I’ll have you know Sword Of Vermillion is an excellent game!
I beat Castlevania II last night, but I got the bad ending. I always get the bad ending. I guess I waste too much time building up my levels.
The thing with the Korok seeds would never work in a sensible way.
I never would have beaten Mega Man 1 without save states. Even by old school standards, that game is tough as nails to beat vanilla.
The only possible way to have an inch of fun with ghosts and goblins/ghouls. Change my mind
@Superzone13
"Dude what if we just made the platform weapon optional in a random level, hidden away, and never say what it does and if you need it?"
I gotta say, save states has made playing classic games a lot more enjoyable. I have realized how I have gotten so used to it that when I go back to play the classics on the old hardware it feels like a much more challenging and dedicated experience.
I love the modern conveniences of save states and rewind. I enjoy games more, generally, using them. In fact, I find myself playing through games more times because I have more fun, then returning to them later as well. Sometimes, if I like a game a lot, I am motivated to eventually beat it totally legitimately. As I said, I find it makes the games more fun and adds replay value for me. Plus, save states and rewind can save you from game-breaking glitches that would require a reset, and can level the playing field against games that cheat a bit(such as selective hit detection). I'm a bit of a fan of Zelda 2 now as well due to these conveniences.
"Want to tick Tolstoy's War and Peace off the ol' bucket list? There are very few shortcuts for that one, I’m afraid"
But the book is always there, in a fixed form, for you to slowly work your way through.
The problem with videogames, especially older ones, is that you are prevented from progressing until you've 'proven' you're good enough. I could spend 10 minutes a day on War and Peace and eventually I would definitely complete it. But there is no guarentee that I could complete a really challenging retro game in that same timeframe, especially if there is a restricted/non-esistant save system.
That to me is the biggest advantage of playing old games now, with save states and walkthrough guides/videos on tap. It becomes much more plausable to progress through games.
Just being able to continue from the exact moment I left off in a game like Super Metroid is so much more convenient and makes the games much more achievable, let alone that you can create a save right before a tricky platforming section to avoid having to run through the same series of corridors when you fail and fall in order to get back to those platforms again.
Zelda 2 without save states is broken.
Do we really need defense for a wider array of options?
Players can have access to easier difficulty settings, alongside savestates, rewinds and whatnot. Other players can be adult about it and deal with it accordingly. After all, if other players "cheat", what's the big deal? Play your way just as they do. There, easy!
Not into it really, just takes away the challenge by just cheesing your way through the game, especially rewind. Savestates are cool and all for games that don't have a save function or you just want to save time but most people just savestate right before a tense situation, removing all tension the game is going for. If a game is too hard for you, don't play it, don't baby yourself because there is no harm in stop playing. I believe these functions should be used for a crutch for bad or archaic game design or if you played the game before.
I like the idea of options but when this option is abused you might as well just have a Mario Maker skip button for all the levels because you're barely playing it.
Save states should be used sparingly. Years ago I hated Sonic 1 and I kept dying and using save states. Years later I replayed the game without the save states, and built up skill in the game to finish it (the game wasn't even that hard). Beating it without external help was satisfying. Adventure games suck at this though. The puzzles are obscure as hell, and cant be solved on their own without help from a walkthrough. Thimbleweed park had some dumb puzzle where you had to follow somebody through a forest. The way to do this was to click on some random trophy in a characters room, decide, yeah maybe I should fill it up with the NUCLEAR WASTE then pour it into a puddle, so that when they walked through the forest they would leave chemical footprints that literally glow. Not only was this puzzle hard to figure by yourself, you end up damaging the person you are following's health, as well as the health of the forest and its wildlife. If you need a guide to enjoy a game, that isn't your fault, that's just bad game design.
I've never beaten a game with save states or rewinding. Yes, I too have too many games to play and too little time, but I always think it's much better to finish a game the way it was intended. For example, Pac-Land on the Famicom took me years, for example. But in the end, when I managed to finish it, it felt awesome. It just feels dirty to cheat a game that way.
I've used guides here or there though, but mostly for just 100% completion or just basic controls or tips.
Save states are helpful in games, but it definitely changes the overall experience. I’m a bit stubborn when it comes to using them since I still want to feel like I am mastering the particular section of gameplay. Same with walkthroughs and I tend to use them only in desperation, not because I don’t want the help but I like being surprised about what’s coming next.
I agree though about the wandering around for 2 hours to find the next stretch of gameplay. That’s why I will sometimes use walkthroughs for Metroidvanias since I seem to miss an area where a new item could be used.
Most modern games don’t really require any need to consult a walkthrough, unless it’s From Software’s titles. I would have never figured out how to get to Castle Cainhurst in Bloodborne if I didn’t look it up in a walkthrough. They really seem to be fond of old school ethics in the way they hint at things in the most obscure ways.
I never use rewind features and mostly just use save states like an elaborate pause button really, just like suspending a game when you put the Switch to sleep.
I guess I'm old-skool in the sense that I used to enjoy working out solutions for myself, especially with games like Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, Space Quest, etc. I'll only use a walkthrough hint if I'm genuinely at the end of my tether.
Great Soapbox by the way, Gavin. You're the best 'article' writer on here since Tom left.
I just can't bring myself to use save-states and rewinds.
There's something that just robs me of that feeling of victory you get when you beat a game when you used an advantage that the devs didn't intend for you to have, y'know?
@Ralizah I'm with you, except the original Zelda as the example! All it takes is making a simple paper map as you play. Until the last Level. That one is punishing, unfortunately.
Zelda 2, however, is just so, so far away from modern sensibilities and really was mean even for its day. I don't know how I finished that back in the day.
I also ticked Zelda 2 off my list with the help of save states. Back in the day I never actually made it to the last Palace, and never would have finished it (on the Wii VC) without save states.
I think the article raises one of the dangers of relying on mod cons too much: playing a game can become almost a tick box exercise. For my own enjoyment I find that I need to strike a balance between playing a game 'old school', without any aids, and following a guide / using save states. If I rely too much on the latter, I soon get bored of the game, if I take the former approach, I can get frustrated (I no longer have that much time to play games!) But definitely I would not have finished many of the games I've enjoyed in the past 10 years without some of those mod cons - and I'm very glad I did it.
I couldn't disagree more, the rewind feature is one of the worst things to happen to gaming as it takes away much of the tension that you feel whilst playing and makes beating a level feel a bit of a hollow victory. I remember these been added to racing games so that it didn't matter that you misjudged a corner and flew off the track as you could just try it again seconds later. There is nothing wrong with failing and learning to get better at something, in fact that is what life is all about.
This years Resident Evil 2 or indeed the recent VII wouldn't have been half as nerve racking if you could save whenever you pleased, so when that big hulking Mr X came chasing you could just reload instead of frantically searching for a safe route away from him. One of my bugbares of recent years in gaming is the constant auto saving in games so that of you die or fail it doesn't matter as you instantly restart pretty much exactly where you were as if nothing happened.
I have no issues with anyone wanting to use such things themselves but I turn them off wherever possible and I'd much rather have a well designed game with a great risk reward balance than constant hand holding
I do find myself using walkthroughs on certain occasions but it’s usually a last resort. I remember my aunt printing me out a walkthrough for Ocarina of Time back in the day because I had no clue you had to bat Phantom Ganon’s balls back at him. That didn’t make me a ‘cheater’, I was 7 years old and thought ‘oh, of course’. I then proceeded to play the rest of the game and enjoy it massively. Certain games, like Ninja Gaiden, I wouldn’t save scum because I just wouldn’t feel that I would be getting the best experience out of it. Games like Dark Souls, I’ll look up if the boss is weak to fire or lightning since there’s no reason for me to waste an item if I don’t have to. That’s why I love Persona 4 and 5’s weaknesses system, it’s trial and error and then always lets you know what weaknesses you have discovered. It’s the same as the new Pokemon typing alerts which I think are a great convenience. It doesn’t make the game easier, just saves time.
I have mixed feelings on them, but I have purchased and used guides over the years. I think they should be a last resort, but too often my own laziness or impatience sends me running to them. Similarly too often I find myself chewing through a game only to cast it off to find the next 'fix' instead of really getting to know a game inside and out.
I'm all about convenience for the sake of having fun in video games. As long as the aids are optional, everyone can enjoy the game in their own way.
As far as i'm concerned every game could benefit from optional conveniences and multiple difficult levels.
I prefer playing retro games in general, and on original hardware where I can, but having two daughters under 18 months means sometimes I only get 30 mins of play time. Regular auto saving and save states are a god send. Games with no saving at all really grate on me.
I really want to play Cybernator/Assault Suits Valken on the SNES, but from what I can fathom it has no way to save at all so I don’t think I’ll ever play it!
Eh, get good. Not everybody needs to see the credits, because not everyone has earned it. Besides, you can always watch the ending on YouTube if you’re so inclined. Save states and auto play are a great way to teach kids that they’re entitled to have whatever they want, even if they don’t practice and haven’t worked for it. Some retro games utilize fake difficulty, but that’s only an argument for better game design and proper testing.
Save states are for cheats. Most of all, they deprive you of the satisfaction of learning a skill to breeze through troubling sections of the games. Of course, if personal satisfaction is about rushing through a game as quick as possible, then use them.
As for Castlevania 2, the only problem I had at the time was the red crystal was meant to summon a tornado to take you deeper into the game, and this wasn't explained well. I eventually read about it in a help section of a magazine. A save state there is really to avoid using the game's password system. The other Castlevania games, a save state would really be to cheat through the game.
I don't get all the hate for Zelda 2. That was always one of my favorite games as a kid, and I still play it without save states at least once a year. I will concede that the end is very difficult, but if you save up all of the extra lives for a final attempt, it's not that bad. I usually end up winning with one or two lives left over.
"Looking back, my mental gymnastics are laughable now, but I’m sure some readers will find those thoughts familiar."
Yeah, I do find your thoughts familiar. I resisted all those benefits for a long time but I ended up accepting them and using them once in a while. Now I don't have the time to press start and keep trying for 2 or 3 hours to get to the end of some old games I love to revisit or maybe some retro games I play for the first time.
I was so disappointed when I played Castlevania 2 many years ago that I had absolutely no will to go back to it. That was until I got the Castlevania collection and decided to give it a go with a guide this time and it was a better experience. Some things in that game are simply stupid, ridiculous, we all know, so the guide helped preserve the good part of that great game.
Whenever I play Ninja Gaiden, I use save states in the beginning of a stage, never in the middle. But I refuse to start all over again every time I sit down to play. I just have no time for those long bursts anymore. So that's good to have these perks.
As for new games, they all have the perks since day one. The game guides you and you can save, so that's all been absorbed by industry by now
I love the soapbox articles!
I don't mind a challenge. I even enjoy old school levels of challenge. HOWEVER... I have SERIOUS issues with lengthy levels and comically scarce save points. Asking a player to invest 30 plus minutes on a level and -oops a bat flew down and knocked me into the abyss near the end- is #@!%ing inexcusable. Modern games like Cuphead get the balance right- beat you up and allow near instant respawns. Old games border on unplayable without this.
Personally I don't generally care for save states, I never feel like I legitimately beat a game if I used save states in the process. The only exception is if I'm playing on a portable system and just use a save state as a way to basically pause the game without my system's battery draining, so I can exit out of the game for a little bit when real life calls then get back to it later when I have the time. I'm totally happy to use save states like that, I just never use them as a way to circumvent the number of lives/continues a game gives you or cheat my way through a hard spot.
I like rewinds and saves. Yes. I am that guy. When I was younger, I could replay the game over and over until I mastered it. I am in my 40s. For one, I have less time to play videogames, so saves and rewinds are in my alley. Also, I find that my reflexes have slowed, and I am not as good as I used to be.
Firstly, great article.
Secondly, I abused the hell out of save states in the recent Castlevania collection and got to beat all 8 games because of it. Some of the designs back then weren’t just rough, they were Cruel! Lost to a tough boss? Some later stages would send you back to the beginning of the level!! No thanks!
For context, I legitimately beat the first Castlevania back in the day as well as 3,4 etc. But having played these in the past I just want to walk down memory lane, not tear my hair out all over again!
War and Peace has all these gamer ‘mod-cons’...
Walkthrough: From cover to cover
Save states: Fold the corner of the page
Rewind: Flick pages backwards whenever you like
I do need a Zelda walkthrough though - I’ve no idea where to go, and get killed immediately upon venturing anywhere!
I absolutely avoid guides but I’m not adverse to save slots. This does mean however that I seldom complete anything. 😅
I’m watching the recent War and Peace BBC series and it’s pretty good.
@GravyThief
If you aren't opposed to everdrives you can get save states on original hardware. Nes Everdrive does save states, Mega Everdrive X7 does save states, and SNES2SD PRO does save states. One of my favorite thing about flash carts.
There is a vast difference in your sense of accomplishment using save states vs not. I feel like any halfway decent gamer can be beat any difficult game if their abusing save states. When you beat it straight up, that's when you get bragging rights.
@saturn_hero
I play games to have fun, not for bragging rights. That said, any decent gamer can beat any game without save states if they put enough time into it. Think of the hardest game and there will be a number of youtube videos of no hit runs. The difference is an average gamer might beat the game in say 5 hours. But the youtuber has played it hundreds of hours learning every nuance. Gaming is simply a time commitment and there is always going to be someone better than you at any given game.
Spider-Man vs. The Kingpin on Genesis is one game I was ok using save states for. The main reason being that if you don't beat the last boss within a time limit (which is shown by a character being lowered into a firey pit), you will automatically lose and get a game over. This wouldn't be a problem (in fact, the same thing happens in Revenge of Shinobi with a falling wall) if Kingpin wasn't so difficult to beat. You literally have to hit him in the face and have pixel perfect aiming. I remember streaming the game, and I was lucky to beat him the first try. Regardless...its still pretty intense, and there is no way that im going to start the entire game over just because the designers made Kingpin's hit box so small. Screw that!
@carlos82 I personally think that while you should try to learn a game and not use the mechanics for a crutch, that highly depends on the game and your investment in them. Not all games give a fair difficulty curve and don't let you adapt to them properly. For example, try to beat Super Monkey Ball 1 on expert legit. I have no problem doing the more interesting levels legit, but the levels that are suuuper thin on purpose are ones I save state past immediately. One level on the master round of courses expected you to perfectly roll yourself up a hill around 0.1-0.5 meters thick, then do the same on moving platforms, and then an ok roll down a slide. Save stating through it took like 10 minutes; only masters/speedrunners will beat that level legit. They clearly were from that arcade difficulty mentality and are not fun at all. Yet the level where I have to manage around a rotating box on a later stage? Sure, I'll do it legit.
So yeah rewinds/save states are perfectly fine if you don't feel the game is fun/tolerable without them, but shouldn't prevent you from learning the game.
For some reason it reminded me of something I saw online a few years back.
There was a video for a Disgaea spin off game that was a platformer with Prinnies and you had 99 lives total. The video was about spamming the ability to use up several lives to bomb the screen and one of the comments on it was:
"My dad beat the game losing like 10 lives total, I have no idea how he did it"
"Yeah, old people are very good at hard videogames..."
Cheers
@FlameRunnerFast that's quite an extreme example but I get your point. I beat all of those stages legitimately after a very long time playing, eventually you get unlimited continues which makes it a bit easier. Essentially though those levels were extra challenges for those who had already got very good with the game and only appeared if you beat it without continuing so most might not even know they were there.
For games like that I can see why people would want such a thing, my problem is games like Mario Odyssey for example, love the game but its laughably easy and then they give you that extra level at the very end which was fantastic as you had to learn it and beat it in one go. A few more of those would have been nice and most games today, even if they're not especially difficult just have you respawn pretty much where you were when you die which can remove that element of risk when playing.
As I said if anyone wants to use them I have no issue with that and I've used cheats like level selects and such which amounts to pretty much the same thing but I game I'm really invested in and enjoying I'll always play legitimately first and foremost
Now that we have the power, it's a personal balancing act.
I tried to play Alex Kidd on the Mega Drive Collection without using the hax, and ragequit after spending half an hour dying within two screens of the start.
Then I started using the rewind function and it just became ridiculous: there is virtually no challenge other than your reflexes failing you, or an enemy popping out of nowhere. Remove that from the equation and it's just a cakewalk.
Either way there is still the risk of losing the player's interest. A certain measure of discipline, to abstain from using saves/rewinds all the time is definitely necessary for the enjoyment of retro games these days.
@cleveland124 yeah I’m into flashcarts, I have the NES Everdrive and SD2SNES.
I found having save states enabled on the NES Everdrive caused some games to glitch and in some cases not even load (I think Startropics and Fire Emblem were such cases). So I turned it off and forgot about it. Do you know if they’ve improved that with firmware?
For the SNES, is it just the Pro iteration that allows save states? I have the original SD2SNES, and given how expensive it is I won’t be buying a new one, which is unfortunate as I’d really benefit from save states and finally be able to play Cybernator!
Funnily enough, Simon's Quest is on my list of games to beat this year. I could never figure out where to go when I was a kid, and it being pre internet times, there were no walkthroughs. With the Castlevania collection released recently I can't think of a better time to finally complete the game.
I couldn't agree more. I was reluctant to use walkthroughs or watch brief moments of gameplays before, as well as playing emulated games in the first place, but adult life is a life with very little leisure time and available space for your gadgets, especially after you become a parent, so I agree with more than one thought in the article.
I try to progress in games by myself, but when I get stuck, I'm sorry, I have to look for an aptly called "nudge" in the right direction. It's that or just abandoning the game.
And facing retro games with convoluted designs is something I have to do sometimes. Does that make me less of a gamer? Maybe, but I want to enjoy those games and, just like the writer, I go to a lot of classic games now in order to finally play them, because "any gamer must have played them", so it's part chore and part fun. That's what I see in NES Metroid, for example: after a lot of exploring and dying, now that I'm near the end I need a map, just a map, not a guide about how to kill bosses, in order to not wander around and just go straight to the interesting places.
I don't use the rewind feature, though, and don't save at any point either (I try to do so only in places in which the original game let you save or showed you the password). But I respect people who uses them.
I absolutely want save states and fast forward/rewind available on every next gen controller
These features best used moderately
For example on classic Doom games, I'll only ever save at start of every level, opposed to saving every 30 secs ect.
Dont use rewind, and when I use save states I just make sure I dont over do it.
for context, Mike Matei is one of James Rolfe's (the guy who plays the Angry Video Game Nerd) co-workers, he's a bit of a jerk and used to write racist comics - but at least he made the legendary pinnacle of anti-humour Minecraft with Gadget, so all is forgiven.
Well I’ve never abused save points, I have used save states at restart points when you lose a life so that way I could keep trying a section that’s been rather difficult rather than having to start the beginning of the level once my lives are gone.
Honestly if the game is fun enough to me I'll beat it without save states. I've beaten lots of difficult games like all the Mega Mans and Super Ghouls and Ghosts without save states because I enjoyed playing them and to me it was fun to get better.
Some other games I just don't enjoy enough to keep practicing and want to get past certain parts or I'd rather just quit the game and move onto something I've enjoy more. Yeah, there is some skill in gaming, but alot of it is taking the time (over and over again) to memorize or get the timing down. When people have kids they'll find that kids will get better than you at games they really like and play over and over again. If someone has the fortitude to try Ninja Gaiden over and over they will eventually beat the game without save states. And yes, that is an accomplishment in perseverance but in the grand scheme of life it's simply a checkmark on a bucketlist.
So at the end of the day, I kind of see the point. I've often thought about keeping a log of the games I've beaten and if I use save states I'd put some sort of asterisk there. If I really love those games it would be a goal of mine to replay them later and remove that asterisk. But at the same time I feel like the criticism of save states is sort of an elitist attitude that I can't support. "You're not a real gamer if you use save states" or "I'm a better gamer than you because I beat this game without save states". If they start including these games in competitions and you beat it the fastest or with the most points or whatever then great for you. But if you don't, then these are just games and you should play them how you have fun. And if you really are great at games and try to make games harder just to enjoy them then that's great too. But be humble and recognize that any tools that help get people into gaming and bring more games to the market is great for all of us instead of trying to run people out of "our hobby".
A) Getting way too worked up over the "accomplishment" of playing children's games and,
B) Save States, Rewind, etc. just cut back the amount of time on what would inevitably happen through repetition or trial-and-error (especially the latter since these older games don't convey ANYTHING well) on account of Lives or just being able to start over in any capacity.
@Solid_Stannis sure great temple at the end at least had the courtesy to let you resume at the start of the temple over the end if you died. Mike is right and far more informative than this long winded article I ironically didn't have time to read.
It's ok to cheat in personal life though; the cover up is far worse. Especially if you get a slap on the wrist like Bill Belichick and the Patriots. But having a bad guy makes things more profitable as people will pay for the unlikely fantasy to see him lose, much like Floyd Mayweather (who doesn't cheat at boxing but is great at gaining heat as his WrestleMania showed).
Heck nobody minds when I say cheating in 5.4.3.2.1...some even think it's fun. Another story if it's academia where a third party can get ya. But then Felicity Huffman got lucky, dunno if Lori Loughlin will too. It's like that Naruto chunin exam, count your warnings and you'll find a window of tolerance.
You weren't there man .... you don’t know what it was like! Sometimes you’d leave you Mega Drive on for days at a time, didn’t want to have to beat that boss again <shudders>. Sometimes the console would crash, sometimes it wouldn’t. Sometimes you’d hear the dreaded call ‘turn that off and get down for dinner’ or ‘you’ve played enough of that rubbish today’. I can still hear those voices, at night, calling out in my nightmares. The horror ... the horror.... <states off into the distance>
On a serious note, save states, rewinds and save files are the single greatest advantage of playing old games today. I’ve done my time; now my time is precious and save states mean I can enjoy it properly. Not going to be told I’m less of a gamer by someone who wasn’t around for the Console Wars 😁
On
I'm pro abusing save states or rewind. DO IT.
It's makes older games WAY more enjoyable. I played and beat old games at the time the way they were intended but as I age or want more time for other things, I can't imagine not having theses features now.
I know I'm gonna get slammed for saying this, but I see no issue with save states, especially when it comes to games from the NES era.
When you take off the rose-tinted glasses, NES games are often unfair, and in many cases cruel to the player in terms of mechanics, limitations of the playable character, the loss of weapons and equipment upon death, dropping the player into a world with no context or idea what to do, numerous enemies that can make life hell while trying to make pixel-perfect jumps, the list goes on and on.
Let's be honest here, alot of this garbage would not have even flown in the 16-bit era, and by that point, many of the 16-Bit sequels to 8-Bit franchises became alot fairer to the player.
The NES era is an awkward era in terms of game design because I think many developers were struggling to move past their arcade roots, and figure out what worked in the home console market.
This is why I feel save states are so important to retro games. Many NES games are good games at their core, they are just marred to questionable design decisions of the era. One thing to also note is that many games like Ninja Gaiden III and Castlevania III were made harder when they came to the West due to Nintendo's battles with rental stores like Blockbuster.
Gaming is a hobby, and if a person want to use save states, then let them do it without making them feel like a loser for doing so.
I'll admit I beat the Japanese Super Mario Bros 2 by using Save States, and I doubt i could have ever beat the game without them.
But here's the thing, Save States can only help you so far. You still have to master that jump, fight your way through a difficult section, or take down a powerful boss. In many ways, it's less of a cheat, and more of a way to bypass the normal lives system in a game.
Given many NES games will toss you back to an early part of a level or put you in front of a boss in a weakened state, its only a small advantage. Keeping in mind, many NES game did not offer a chance to continue,
So, save states and even rewind can only get you so far. You still have to master the section that gives you trouble. I once reloaded states in the Japanese SMB2 numerous times because I kept getting stuck until I got good enough to get through.
Which makes it funny that many of these "elitest" games slam save states, even though they likely had a Game Genie back in the day that let them practice those hard sections and get good enough to do them on their own.
At the end of the day, Save States and Rewind features are much less powerful and game-breaking then a Game Genie or Game Shark ever was. You can reload a save state hundreds of times, and it means zip until you beat it.
It just gives you more of a fighting chance and makes these games more open to a modern audience.
Rewind is brilliant, lets me share classics like Mario world with my 6 year old (without it he'd have lost interest and with me rewinding we can work together.)
I'm old. I don't have nearly as much time as I used to to play video games. Save states/rewinds help me enjoy playing games and that's all that really matters. If you want to feel superior to me because you can beat them without them, go right ahead, it has no effect on me.
Zelda II wasa great example to talk about. I could get through the entire game EXCEPT the very last dungeon. Just too many tiny ways to lose health or get knocked JUST wrong and fall down a pit and die.
Another famous Genesis game that was massively difficult without a guide (that came WITH the game) was Phantasy Star II. Incredibly complex dungeon maps, brutal difficulty (you could easily die in normal random encounters if you weren't careful), and some truly headscratching "Oh I have to go THERE and do THAT?" moments.
Mike is no stranger to this kind of controversy, having basically bashed the inclusion of 3D World's Silver Tanooki suit or whatever it was that becomes available when you lose so many lives in a row. Mike is a skilled gamer and also comes from a time where save states didn't exist, so I can see why he feels that way. Lots of people do. The only thing I fault Mike for is being a bit too "strong" in this opinion but I don't fault him much for it, being that I lived the same era he did and I know exactly where he's coming from. This is basically the old gamers version of the "Back in my day...!" rants old folks tend to give.
My take on it is that yeah I will sometimes use save states if I'm playing on a device that has them. I play on original hardware, emulators, everdrives, etc. so I don't always have the option, but if I do, I might take it. More often than not though I won't because like Mike, I have that old-fashioned stubborn view on gaming where save states would be considered cheating. For example I don't use them on Zelda II even if the option is there, but I won't deny the fact I did use it on Castlevania I and III when I replayed them recently because I didn't like losing a really good weapon to a silly mistake like whipping the wrong torch. If I ever play Ninja Gaiden on a device that has save states I will probably use a save state right before a boss (especially the final boss) so I can at least practice against them.
In the end I don't think it's important, really. I'm just glad more and more people are enjoying retro video games and I could care less how they're enjoying them. The more people who play them, the more I have to talk about them with. Expecting people to conform to your way of playing a game is just silly, play how you want. I mean, the PC community has been modding games forever and recently this has trickled over into console games, with lots of retro games getting patches that correct certain issues. There's one for example that adds a map to Metroid on NES and I'm all for that sort of thing if it'll help people enjoy it.
Rewind made half the Rare Replay games playable.
Save states are great for practicing parts of game. I don’t use them except to save a game with no save feature. Otherwise what’s the point. You cheated not only the game.
If I want to experience a game I don’t want to or can’t invest the time in learning I will watch someone else play though it.
KidIcarus, the treasure room so you can find the credit card or barrel.
I’ve done a search of the page and ironically most of the discussion here is about the virtues of save states when actually Mike Matei only mentioned the rewind feature in his tweet. I don’t think he was making a comment either way about save states.
Anyway, I like save states, I think they can bring the quality of life features that old games lack. A good example is A Link to the Past; all Zelda games after Link’s Awakening would allow you to save and resume in a dungeon but ALTTP doesn’t offer this. So when I’m playing ALTTP I’ll use a save state to pause and resume my game, rather than having to trek all the way back to the dungeon from one of the three points the game allows you to resume from.
Another example is Axelay, I’m no good at Expert difficulty without plenty of extra lives, so I have a save state from where I’ve legitimately beaten it on Hard and earned a whole bunch of lives ready for when it loops back around on Expert. Arguably I am cheating by reusing the save, but I don’t have the spare time to re-beat the game on Hard every time.
First of all, some games cheat. I have no problem cheating in retaliation.
I really like the modern conveniences of save states and rewind(I was surprised how much I liked rewind). They make the games more fun for me. I'm a big believer in the idea that games should be fun. People should play the way they want that is fun. I don't think it's fun to use save states every five seconds. I love arcade beat-em-ups. It doesn't bother me I can credit feed to the end. I try to play as well as I can, but it stops being fun when the bosses get really cheap. But I also don't find the idea of limited credits fun either. But people who like limited credits can self limit, and everyone wins. As to the tweet, my personal policy is to differentiate between "beating" a game properly, and "playing through" a game using modern cheats. I'll even provide the context "legitimately beating" or "playing through while cheating". I don't mind making the distinction. A good example for me is Shatterhand. It's one of my favorites on the NES and I always found save states made it better for me. Eventually, I could make it to the final stage legitimately. Later on, I figured out how to beat the final stage. And because I enjoy the game so much, I decided to beat it legitimately multiple times(to use different weapons, which can change the difficulty). So that is one I will say I beat, but it was my choice to do that because it was fun(mostly).
I don't have the time not to use save states/rewind but the options there for people to use if they like. I hate the idea of having to go back to level one all over again when the only level I'm struggling with mastering is level seven.
I recently completed Ecco The Dolphin on Genesis Mini and that was frustrating enough WITH save states. Some games are just designed unfairly.
Certain games, I have the skill to play through. SMB3 for example. Other than that, I'm pretty useless in the 8bit era of difficult games. I just want to experience certain games - I don't have the patience to hone my skills to the necessary degree to beat it legit. It's nice being able to get through Zelda II in a decent amount of time - the bosses are still hard as hell with save states! I'm sure some oldschool gamers would beg to differ though, lol.
Even FFVII, I'm not playing through legit. I know I could, but it's such a time saver for a game that's a bit more old and clunky. I'd rather experience the innovative storyline in 2019/2020 - I can pass on some of the outdated mechanics. I have so many games on the go, it's nice to save some time on the older ones.
But I agree that one should always be forthright and not claim to have 'beaten' a game without mentioning that one used savestates
Uh oh, very relevant article indeed heheh
As good ol' Danny Glover would say....."I'm too old for this s***!"
Life is short, so I use them to see my nostalgia again. Sometime it's a game I beat myself 20 some years ago, others I didn't but I want to see the cute little 8bit/16bit ending.
Look, I like and respect Mike Matei's and James Rolfe's work with their projects at Cinemassacre, but sometimes, I think they get a bit too stuck in the past with certain things.
One only has to look at how much the Nerd had to suffer through when playing "Super Mario Bros. 3" or "Zelda II: The Adventure of Link." Those games have such a high difficulty, that a lot of the hits and deaths feel tremendously cheap. That's why rewind features and saves states are useful when playing games like that.
Without such, I would have never beaten either game; for a long while, they stood as my least favorite games in their respective series because they were too difficult for me, even as a veteran gamer myself of almost 25 years.
The only problem is that many people care way too much about what others do. You want to beat the game without save states? Don't use them then. Random internet person plays with save states? They have other priorities than "achievement" and it doesn't affect you in any way.
(general you of course)
Here's my experience with Earth Defense Force. It was difficult but not by trial and error or watching enemy patterns. Shots come by so numerous and fast enemies come from behind, and there is either no enemy patterns to watch out for. EDF will do anything and everything in the game's power to kick you in the shins. That's not accounting you have only 3 health points and no life counter; only a limited amount of continues. Only way to beat that game was abusing the rewind function.
An unfun experience from start to finish.
Bring me gradius and axelay, instead.
@GravyThief
Sorry I hadn't responded to you so this is very old. I have the N8 everdrive and haven't had issues with save states. I know that in general save states with original hardware can have a tendency to be glitchy but in my experience it's been very good. I'm not sure what firmware I'm on or if it's just the games I'm playing but I've been very happy.
What made me think of trying to hit you up is that save states on SD2SNES have been available for a while but I just recently loaded them up and I'm initially pleased.
https://github.com/furious/sd2snes/releases/tag/v1.10.3
There is the link. It doesn't work with special chip games. So no Mario Kart, MM X3 or games like that. I haven't played with it much, but the couple of games I've played with it, it works. It can be glitchy I guess, but the biggest complaint I've seen is that the music doesn't restart when you reload. What that means is if each level has music and you go back a level potentially the wrong music will play until that level is over and then the music is back to the way it should be. That's not a big deal to me. I'll keep testing though. Maybe it won't work great, but I'm excited about save states on the SNES.
Nice article, it’s spot on
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