Digital Foundry Assesses the Technology and Framerate in The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild

Still looks gorgeous to me
Understand the importance of these things to some, but I'm not loosing any sleep over the likely lack of 1080p / 60 fps. Don't think a game of this quality needs it imo...

But is it going to be 1080p / 60 fps on NX?

@Luffymcduck No. Nintendo made it extremely clear at e3 that the NX was a port that runs the exact same as the Wii U game.

There is nothing about the NX version that takes advantage of the hardware it is on.

720p is a bit disappointing, but not surprising, and really not a huge deal. The framerate does concern me, but it's still 9 months away, and day one patches are entirely possible, so it's very likely IMO that the framerate issue will be fixed (or at least improved) by launch.

Urgg, 720p? Had a feeling that the game was going to be set at that resolution but it's still a shame. The unstable framerate is also really annoying and while I don't mind having a game set at 30fps I do really hate dips that go more that 10fps below the average, I'll live but only just. Here's to hoping that the NX will be powerful enough to run the game at 1080p @ 30fps with nice textures.
I also find it funny that when Watch Dogs game out on Wii U people were nagging about how it was at 720p and had dips down to the 20s yet when Zelda does it it's fine.

@Luffymcduck
That could probably be a valid reason for some to get the NX version instead.

@Luffymcduck: No way that Nintendo goes for 60 fps in the NX version.

I love me some Digital Foundry, but running a framerate test on a stream of a demo of an unfinished game is kinda ridiculous.

@Charlosa Well, I think it was rather troublesome to see some very obivous and visible framerate drops during those demos. I don't need 1080p60 in a game like this, but a consistent 30fps is definitely important and the demo failed to delivered that, which is worrisome to me.

I haven't even watched E3, maybe I should.

@RedeadLink Maybe because graphical style is so different. It's a lot easier to see resolution difference with more real life looking game.

Take notes: that's how you point out negatives in a game. It was constructive while still giving credit where credit is due.

Though I don't understand the disappointment in 720/30 on a game of this scale, on the Wii U. Given the hardware, I very well expected as much.

@Sanicranfast BS. Of course it will run more smoothly on NX. What they meant was that there won't be any additional content or gameplay features.

as someone who started pc gaming 2 years ago i can say that 60fps is sooooooo important for gaming. i'd rather set the graphics to lower resolution or lower effects than lock the framerate to 30 instead of 60fps

@A01: I am pretty sure the will set the framerate to a constant 30 fps. That is enough for Zelda and the TP-Remake showed that you cannot simply increase the framerate when physics engine and other stuff is linked to 30fps.

However, if the NX is powerful enough, we could see the game in 1080p...

@BensonUii I don't think framerate tests ruin the sales of games.
i) your average consumer doesn't even know what framerate is and they won't look into tests like this
ii) those who care will notice bad frame rates by themselves and don't really need these tests. those who care so much about fps that they won't buy a game based on that will do so with or without any tests.

@6ch6ris6 I prefer 60fps as well. But even this seems way too bad when you have been playing in 120 fps before.
Therefore for a game like Zelda which isn't a fast racing game or a game in which you have to react very fast, it doesn't matter that the framerate is low at 30 fps. However, it should be fixed at this rate and avoid drops. That is important.

@Chandlero ehm TP is a 10 year old game with an even older engine. I sure hope Nintendo didn't tie anything in their new engine to 30 fps. Engines are much more scalable these days than 10 years ago. So you can't really compare it to TP.

In my best Vadar voice.......

Framerates do not concern me, Admiral.

@manu0 That could be true. And Nintendo is developing the game for the NX and not simply porting it. So maybe you are right.

@RedeadLink That's the difference in love between established IP from Nintendo and new IP from Ubisoft, which just reinforces the idea that framerate issues are largely irrelevant, unless they occur repeatedly and consistently throughout a game.

@6ch6ris6 I'm pretty much the opposite, I set all my games to max settings to see if I can get around 30fps. If the fps fluctuates too much then I cap at 30. (Aside from certain games like MGS5 where I can have almost max settings and 60fps, then I am willing to turn down shadows etc to lock at 60)

What frame rate and resolution is XCX? I'd find it surprising if Zelda was worse than that game, considering they're both huge.

Personally I think the demos of Zelda last week looked great so I'm happy whatever it is. I only realised recently the TV my Wii U is hooked up to is 720p not 1080p, so I've not yet experienced true HD gaming anyway! 😳

@Ralek85 In fairness I haven't had a chance to watch through the game play from the Treehouse feeds, so I can't comment re the dips. I do agree with the last sentence @BensonUii made in the initial comment: "Unless there's framerate dips all over ruining the experience, it shouldn't matter." I know from experience that I'm willing to be more forgiving then some with frame rate dips, but equally I wouldn't put up with constant dips that were a complete distraction from the game - I just hope that that's not the case...

My biggest fear, which I already elaborated on this morning, is that the world seemed sort of empty at E3. And Nintnedo heard others say this as well, and they graciously explained that it was empty on purpose b/c of "Spoilers".

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06/14/e3-2016-the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-hands-on-preview?page=3

Well what if it wasn't empty b/c of story spoilers, what if it was empty b/c filling this game engine w/ NPC and big screen filling bosses drops the frame rate even further? (It isn't going to have any effect on the res, 720p is 720p, empty or full).

So no, it really isn't fair to be judging a demo of a game still 9 months out, they aren't testing the FPS of the full game world, only an empty game world that was made empty on purpose - they told us it was made empty on purpose and there would be more added in later. Common sense would tell me, the more you have on screen, the more likely you would be to drop the framerate, not increase it.

So I agree, it's an unfair test, but it's unfair b/c Ntinedo purposely made the world empty. This is almost a tech demo they are testing w/o the rest of the game running.

Of course my greatest fear is they make it an NX exclusive. But I don't really think that will happen, they released Hyrule Warriors Legends on the old 3DS even though the New 3DS does run it better. Link even looks like he runs better on the New.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJGSyw0-Og

I wonder if the NX version will have more bad guys on screen at once?

I do think NX will also be 720p, no reason to change that. Higher framerate would be nice. Or at least a steady 30.

I beg you, whatever you do, DO NOT GO TO THE COMMENT SECTION!

Jokes aside, as usual, DF delivered a very good video with interesting information on their experience with the demo.

I would also like to point out that, like some others have said above, figures are only their as hints. They do not give any solid information on the game's visuals, and of course, no info on the overall quality of the game. What is important is the final result. And this game, just like MK8 and some others, looks amazing, despite the 1280*720 resolution.

I can tell you I've seen much worse, even on PC. I can remember playing Aion in the old days, when the new engine suddenly stopped supporting AA (it still doesn't to this day, as far as I know). Believe me, 1080p with no AA and no filter of any kind looks absolutely disgusting. Even worse than most 480p Wii games (I said "Wii", not "Wii U", it's not a typo).

So don't pull your hair out just for a couple jaggies here and there. No matter what the hatters say, the important is the final result. And so far, it looks extremely promising, and not just for the visuals.

@Ralek85 In all honesty, if DF hadn't pointed the frame drops out, I wouldn't have noticed them, when I watched the Treehouse stream.
In fact, I didn't.
And I doubt anyone else did, either.
And I doubt they ever will, if they aren't looking for them on purpose. That's just how minor most of them, if not all of them, are.

I'm most interested in how far emulation will be able to push the performance (after purchasing the game, of course). If I can get it running in 4K I'll be very happy.

@Dakt "have a design choice wherein they skip a few frames manually whenever Link hits an enemy - to emphasize the action."

Thats kind of what I always thought about Starfox Adventures. Despite most people hating it I really enjoyed it, probably b/c I had never played a SF game before so I went in wanting to explore the world. Probably to this date the best looking none HD world. GoW may have been better but it's fixed camera, that's cheating, doesn't count. But as beautiful as that world was, it crawled to a near standstill whenever Fox hit someone and killed them. You are the first person I've ever seen mention somebody doing that on purpose. That must have been it, thanks.

@Charlosa hear hear!

@Sanicranfast No. They said the game will play the same on NX. That does not mean that the performance will not be improved.

yawn, specs.

@Stu13 Yes!

@Luffymcduck YES!

oops, let me just switch your names around... haha
@Luffymcduck It's quite possible, it all depends on what the NX turns out to be.
@Sanicranfast No that isn't true,
https://mynintendonews.com/2016/06/16/zelda-breath-of-the-wild-features-different-visuals-on-nx-but-same-experience/
If you read the short article, and if the guy is to be believed, the "different visual" is most certainly, cosmetic upgrades, better textures, less pop-in, possibly even 1080p 60fps. No one but Nintendo knows to answer to that yet though.

@Dakt I agree with you. I was pointing out that the comment above saying that aonuma said the nx version would look the same is not necessarily true.

Yawn Still gonna play it. Looks like there's tons of juicy gameplay to be had.

The mip-map'ing and 720 res is a little disappointing, but I couldn't care any less about frame rate.

My main gripe is the choices of draping everything in normal maps and relying on such a basic looking terrain system.

Color management is not super hot in what's been shown so far either, but I'll wait until I see the rest of the game.

My overall feeling though is that even tighter technical art direction could have meant this game both looked at performed better. But that's usually always the case, so that doesn't say much.

I think they've achieved something quite spectacular looking here.

From what I've seen on YouTube, it looks faster than 30 FPS, about 40 FPS in some parts. The frame drops are indeed extremely noticeable though. They still got about 8-ish months before the game releases so I assume that means they have about 7-8 months to fix those framerate issues.

From 1985-present...still don't care

I am to busy playing videogames to be playing the number game.

@Chandlero Playing Xenoblade X is hard after playing games at 144fps with G-Sync

Even 60fps is kind of hard, but being several meters from the TV, it's easier. From my monitor, though, even with G-Sync (makes a huge difference), 30fps gives me a headache depending on the game, and 60fps just isn't smooth.

Just FYI, different people stop seeing much benefit to higher framerates at different framerates. This is because, I believe it's our retina? Our retina wobbles at speeds between 70hz and 100hz. Once it refreshes more than our retina wobbles, there's not much of a point. I usually stop seeing much difference once it gets to 85fps.

Movies make my eyes bleed, guess why.

Also, once you go 1440p, you'll never change. High refresh rates with an IPS panel and pretty much no reason to apply AA unless you really care? I'm glad it's no longer just a story.

Yet I'm planning on playing at 800x600 half the time if I find an iiyama Master Pro 512 somewhere... 😢

@Sanicranfast That's not what Nintendo said. They said it would have the same content. I expect the NX to possibly bump the visuals up to 1080p and 60fps. It won't be the games engine that causes the frame rate dips on Wii U, it'll be the hardware. Those problems shouldn't exist on NX.

60fps/1080p isn't everything. As long as the game isn't nigh unplayable as a result, I'm perfectly fine with a lower frame rate. Also, this game is still in development, so the framerate will likely get cleaned up a little before release.

I pity the fools who have likely missed out on some excellent games only because they rely on such numbers.

@Sanicranfast even if the frame rate is locked at 30 on NX, it's unlikely there will be as many dips. Unless they cripple the game to satisfy Wii U owners.

@6ch6ris6 - As someone who's been in PC gaming for 30 years now, I can tell you it's really not. As long as it's consistently around 30fps, you're good. It's nice to have higher framerates, sure. But it's not game breaking at all to have drops here and there.

@SLIGEACH_EIRE I don't think 60fps will be met on NX, rather a locked 30fps.

720p at 30fps with no aliasing and lacking many of the graphical effects and techniques we've become accustom to on the other consoles at this point, and that's "rather impressive". No, that's basically the absolute minimum most people expect of any home console video game in 2016.

So, what would actually disappoint you, if this is considered "pretty impressive"? Sub HD resolution, on a home console in 2016, or a framerate that actually ran at 20fps for most part?

Have Nintendo gamer's standards really dropped so low that graphics/specs that would likely be immediately laughed at and raged upon if this were on Xbox One, PS4, or PC, are now considered totally fine and dandy on Wii U, and even "rather impressive"?

Come on, it's not broken or anything but 720p at 30fps with drops here and there and no anti-aliasing, in 2016 on a current-gen home console is basically a bit of a joke; this is literally the absolute minimum we should be expecting and doubly so from any first party titles.

For comparison: Uncharted 4 runs at 1080ps and a pretty solid 30fps. Horizon: Zero Dawn is apparently running at 1080p and solid 30fps. God of War on PS3 is running at 1080 and 30-40fps. And those games could surely easily nail 60fps if they decided to go down to 720p resolution. I expect they all use anti-aliasing too, God of War def does, and they're also pushing general graphics/effects that are technically leagues beyond Zelda's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9UmD13aarg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Xx3MdqdgM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDLsAKNIuoY

If we all lived in a vacuum I'm sure it wouldn't even be worth mentioning in the first place, since the game still looks fine and is clearly loads of fun to play, and if this were last-gen it might even be "pretty impressive", but we don't live in a vacuum and this isn't last-gen.

I mean for God sake!

Not that I think it will have any real negative effect on the gameplay, but the whole point in even bringing up stuff like this is to get into the notion of specs, testing how the game holds up and competes in that regard, and since we are judging specs here, I think it's perfectly fair to say that this game is way down there are the bottom of the current-gen AAA pile in terms of graphics (and presentation, as I mentioned in previous articles), all things being relative.

Remember, we're not actually in last-gen, despite what Nintendo might have us all believe, we are in fact in the curren-gen.

@Luffymcduck You'd all better hope so, or else a lot of fanboys are going to have their blind faith/optimism in Nintendo somewhat shattered.

Me, I'm not confident the NX will improve things much in the slightest, although I really hope it will. In an ideal world this Zelda game would be running at 1080p 60fps with full anti-aliasing and even some improvements to the likes of the textures and other effects and stuff on NX.

That, however, is likely a bit of a fantasy—but I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

It's really not impressive. The demo suffers from many things, such as poor framerate, blurry textures, big pop-in (which is especially noticeable when flying), etc...

It definitely needs some work.

@ElkinFencer10 Many Wii U titles have been running native 720p but upscaled to 1080p (ex., 3D World, Mario Kart). I'd be surprised if the same thing didn't happen here.

Sorry, barely hitting 30fps in 720p is NOT impressive. It doesn't matter how beautiful the visual style is, if it doesn't run properly and we get performance dips every time we get more than two elements on screen, it's going to get annoying.

@rjejr I think you described my feelings very well. I hope that the full game proves us wrong and it will have strong performance even when there are lots of enemies on screen.

@3MonthBeef You may be right about it sometimes being a stylistic choice with some games, but I highly doubt that they PURPOSEFULLY made the framerate drop whenever Link pushes a boulder around, or goes through a forest with more than one tree, etc.

@Sanicranfast,

All Nintendo said was the NX version would offer the same "Experience" as the Wii U version,they don't want people to feel the Wii U version of the game has any less content than the NX version.

https://mynintendonews.com/2016/06/16/zelda-breath-of-the-wild-features-different-visuals-on-nx-but-same-experience/

From this article it appears Aounuma said the although the overall gaming experience will be the same,the visuals will be different,the NX version will be better in terms of frame rate and resolution,I would also expext less pop-up on objects and better textures overall.

Technology and framerate (performance) is disappointing according to Digital Foundry's analysis and words but the subtitle on Nintendo Life is "rather impressive". The game might look good but Nintendo Life's title is "Framerate and technology".

As a person who wants the Wii U version I'm slightly disappointed.

@VanillaLake

The Wii U is pretty old hardware to be honest,it's only Nintendo's talented game designers and artists that can make a game this impressive run at all.......I think the game looks awesome considering how dated the hardware is.

Keep in mind there's a difference between E3 demo, and final game.

@Kirk No 3D Zelda has EVER run at 60 fps, with the exception of a bloody remaster (on New 3DS only). Final game will run at 720p 30 fps on Wii U, 1080p 30 fps on NX with some better dynamic lighting and shadows and less pop-in. Perhaps it will even have more particle effects, more foliage, etc.

You constantly spout "presentation and graphics", yet I don't believe you know what half of the effects actually are and what they mean. You spout stuff to spout stuff, acting all high and mighty all the time.

@IceClimbers I know more about what those aspects of presentation and graphics mean than you. lol

And, saying that no previous Zelda game managed 60fps is no excuse for what this game does or does not achieve. This game is still far below par compared to what all the other AAA developers and their games are achieving all-round (both presentation and graphics), and that's the issue I'm raising here, not how much more or little advanced it is than the previous Zelda games.

Again—and how many times do I have to mention this—Nintendo's console and games don't exist in a vacuum.

@Chandlero yeh nx 49 fps confirmed! /s

@Kirk 720 is hd though.

@Clownshoes Most games don't run at native 1080p on PS4 and especially XB1. That's consoles for ya lol.

@Kirk This is an E3 demo of an in-development game that still has at least 9 months to go, plus it's being developed for what's effectively 2006 hardware in the form of the Wii U. For what this game is trying to achieve, it is indeed somewhat of a technical feat. Still has work to do, obviously.

Edit: So what exactly is your opinion on The Last Guardian, then?

Well reading these comments brightened my day up no end!

720p is to be expected but a little disappointing, but 30fps with dips? That's not on in 2016, even on the Wii U - especially with a game developed by Nintendo!

This is why I worry about the NX - Nintendo have almost always constantly shown they can't fully utilise the weird underpowered hardware they create, so why would NX be any better?

@IceClimbers "plus it's being developed for what's effectively 2006 hardware in the form of the Wii U"

Yeah, that's the actual reality; I don't accept it as an excuse/defence. Nintendo shouldn't have given us hardware that was a whole generation out of date in the first place, but it did, and I will continue to call it our for that every single time I'm made aware of exactly what that means in terms of getting games that are simply a generation out of date in terms of presentation and graphics too. I'm not just accepting it is what it is and giving Nintendo a pass on this.

And, I'm sure it will be polished more before release, like hitting a solid 30fps, but it's still below par.

I think The Last Gaurdian actually looks kinda fugly, despite having some elements of the visuals that are pretty decent (just like Zelda), and the fact it's been in development for so long is extremely visible imo.

@Uberchu I know it is. Never said it wasn't.

We've already gotten 1080p screenshots of BotW, so chances are it'll run in 1080p on the NX. Of course expecting 60FPS is unrealistic and not at all necessary, even on NX.. and this is coming from a PC gamer who is used to playing all games at 60FPS. Consoles are a different story and unless you want the NX to cost 1000+ bucks, there's no point even wanting 60FPS.

Now framerate drops are a whole other story and you can expect those to be (virtually) gone in the NX version, but I doubt they'll ever be able to get them ironed out for the Wii U version, especially if they still have to add villages and [unique] NPCs.

Wii U's GPU is actually pretty good, so I'm not too surprised.

With the scale of this game, running at a decently consistent 30 fps with some drops when a bunch of crap is happening at once is fine and is by no means a deal-breaker... especially considering what happened with Star Fox Zero.

I'm curious if the NX could run this better though. My TV is only 720p, but to find out that the NX might run this 1080p 60fps would be pretty cool.

@Kirk Oh, it's definitely Nintendo's fault for releasing such outdated hardware. However, it's also not the Zelda BotW development team's fault that Nintendo's hardware department gave them such outdated hardware to begin with. They had to work with what they were given. Like with Pikmin 3, Zelda BotW also won't be able to fully take advantage of the NX's hardware, as it's a Wii U game at its core.

As for The Last Guardian, yeah its long development cycle is clearly visible. Supposedly there's some fairly advanced AI for Trico (the bird-dog thing), but to what extent I have no idea.

Here you all go. The amount of negativity here is so astounding again that I have no desire to take any part in it with my own, cautiously optimistic musings, so I'll let this article and these videos speak for me this time:
http://wiiudaily.com/2016/06/nintendo-confirms-the-new-zelda-game-will-look-better-on-the-nx-duh/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDHVlSeKCWE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgV4psOK9wM
And from someone who was actually on the show floor himself and luckily also knows a thing or two about hardware and graphics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmE1PplG3nU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg6hnrC_vgU

Good evening...

Before even seeing the graphics analysis with framerate, I knew that framerate wouldn't be tolerable. The game looks great and people need to stop complaining about 720p vs 1080p, but 30 vs 60 FPS is a BIG deal. Here's hoping that the NX version can hit 720p 60 FPS.

@IceClimbers True.

I still think the team could have polished certain aspects of the presentation and graphics further though, even within the limitations of the Wii U. One example I'd pick out would be lack of voice acting on NPCs, once again. And, I know some people will try and excuse this as a "design decision", but nah, it's to save time and money and little else, and I'll be havin' nae excuses or defending of Nintendo on that front. lol Also, if you look at the snow-covered fir trees in this Zelda game you'll see they just look like something out of the PS2 era, and even a game like Skyrim on last-gen systems was pushing better looking equivalent tree models. That's just two random examples, but there's actually quite a lot of things like that in the game where I think the team hasn't quite gone that extra mile in terms of presentation and graphics/visuals.

By last-gen standards it's decent enough and roughly on the same level of many of the other open-world games on Xbox 360 and PS3 overall, give or take, but by current-gen standards it is very disappointing in many ways, although it is still doing some cool things graphically and artistically in its own way, and all the stuff outside of presentation and graphics is actually very impressive, imo, even by current-gen standards (especially the whole sandboxy/emergent nature of the gameplay).

Yeah, I'm still not entirely convinced by The Last Guardian, but I guess we'll see in due time.

@ThanosReXXX Well, it will be interesting to see exactly what Nintendo defines as "looking better on NX".

If it's running at say 1080p and 30fps with some anti-aliasing, it will certainly be a nice improvement on the Wii U version, but it would still just match current-gen systems and likely be some way behind the 1.5-gen systems the second they come out once again (once of which is rumoured to be releasing before Zelda even comes out). So, it will be very interesting indeed to see how NX stacks up by comparison.

Again, I'm expecting at most for it to simply be on par with the current Xbox One PS4 graphics, which will certainly be good enough for now (and will likely be hailed by Nintendo gamers as the best thing ever no doubt), but look outdated once again in barely a years time.

This is the uphill battle Nintendo faces, and it's entirely it's own doing and has only itself to blame.

It would be lovely to actually be surprised, maybe even blown away, by Nintendo in this regard; I'm not even remotely going to expect that to happen.

@ThanosReXXX we've got 9 more months of this....

@WiltonRoots Ha, you'll be lucky. I'll be saying this in 20 years time when people bring up the game again (and all the years in between). lol

@Kirk "This is the uphill battle Nintendo faces" Oh, I certainly agree with you there to an extent, which is EXACTLY why I said I am cautiously optimistic. I'm no fool, so I don't think we are going to be blown away by the NX version (especially since we've now already seen the game, so the biggest surprise is gone and any improvements will only be seen as minor anyways) but I am indeed expecting them to go 1080p, solid 30fps, improved LOD, smoother animation and some added effects, much like was mentioned in the last video I posted.

But even without all that, I still think it looked really nice and I'm a big anime fan and this game really captures, no: nails that style, and I really, REALLY like it. This picture is a good example of what I mean:

Larger version for a better look:
http://images.nintendolife.com/news/2016/06/rumour_someone_tried_to_steal_the_zelda_breath_of_the_wild_demo_and_failed/attachment/0/885x.jpg

What I'm also taking into account is that a lot of people that were present at E3 have said that it looks better in real life than any video can show, and I tend to agree with them, purely based upon the fact that even in full HD, YouTube videos are nearly always of a lesser quality than the actual uploaded source material, largely due to their compression algorithms and what not.

Right after E3 was finished, I've downloaded all the Treehouse videos from YouTube and watched them on my large TV (Full HD Plasma) and it really looks great, and taking into account that these videos only partially represent the actual quality, I think that this game is going to be more than just fine, graphics-wise, and the NX version will be a nice upgrade.

@WiltonRoots Yeah, I know. Expect plenty more rumors to come until that time too. But at least we're now probably rid of ms. Emily Rogers, since three of her pre-E3 predictions have now been debunked so she's been awfully quiet of late...

Oh, and in case you're wondering which blunders she made:

Full voice acting in Zelda
Choice of a female Link in Zelda
Mother 3 for Virtual Console

And she'll probably make a few more if she even dares to speak up again before the official news comes out...

@ThanosReXXX You also made me click on a PlayerEssence vid - I unsubscribed from him a while back as he posts so much clickbait these days, literally a new NX video every 10 minutes...I didn't want to add to his hits. lol

@ThanosReXXX Yeah, I think if we're lucky the NX version will be roughly what that guy was talking about in that last video, give or take.

I get why you and many other people like the art style, but, as a trained artist & animator, in both traditional hand-drawn animation (think Disney) and 3D animation (think Pixar), I'm actually a lot more picky about the exact way this "toon-shaded" style is done in these modern games. And, while I'm a total and utter advocate of making even more games have a great toon-shaded look, I'm not actually that enamoured with the specific version of "toon-shading" Nintendo has went with in this game. There's just a few elements that look slightly off to me, and they likely suffer directly because of the graphical limitations in the Wii U hardware. For example, the particular lightning/shading method Nintendo has used on the characters just does not work for me, and I actually think the artists did a better job of that toon-shaded look on the characters in Skyward Sword to be honest.

As I mentioned/linked in a previous post: These examples are more the kind of "toon-shading" style that I think captures the whole cartoon/anime look properly and work well in 3d:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AkY9a7DQUE
https://youtu.be/zU3rmggIcpc
https://youtu.be/FfScVNF0AMs
https://youtu.be/5k17aVeY2rI

And even this for the characters at some of the level details (if we ignore the excessive blurring that happens in the distance):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aciLjusEN8

Basically, the "toon-shading" on Link in that image you provided, as largely dictated by the lighting/shadows and shading, is actually a more of "computery" interpretation of "toon-shading" than that in Skyward Sword, very visibly to me, and I like it a bit less as a result (particularly in static shots).

I think this latest Zelda game is actually a little between being "toon-shaded" and more "realistic", mixing simple "cartoony" elements like the clean/vibrant grass and flowers alongside more "computery" shader effects like the low-res bumpy/glossy texture/appearance on the rocks, as a couple of examples, and I actually there's a visual conflict going on in the overall look and style of the visuals because of this.

I did watch all the Treehouse video too, and I'll admit it does look a bit better in those, although the issues are obviously still present.

I'll be interested too see how much of the stuff I don't particularly like about the overall visuals in this game actually are improved in the NX version. It's not that it's actually ugly; I just see the issues and know in my head what it could look like if the style was fully realised.

@WiltonRoots I've been on and off of his channel, but he has slightly calmed down lately so I'm okay with him, and I've got SMD64's videos to counter any after-effects...

Oh, and besides that, I also watch The Know, although they did more Nintendo related stuff before the E3 than after, for some off reason...

@Kirk Well, I personally see nothing being "off" with Link in this picture, and trust me: I've seen a LOT of anime. I collect it, buy it, share it, eat, breathe and sleep it.

EDIT:

Agreed on the blurry background though, and because of the anime characters, these stick out even more, which is a shame in some places, but overall I think they made it a decent mix to get the most out of the hardware.

Oh, and a personal pet peeve: anime is not the same as toon shaded, or cell-shaded as for example the Wind Waker was. Any anime purist will tell you so...

But factually, none of these art styles can be compared 1 on 1: Wind Waker was full-on cell shading, Skyward Sword was inspired by aquarelle paintings, and this game is based upon the gouache paint style, with anime influences. Both Skyward Sword and the new game are water color paint styles, but the difference is that aquarelle uses transparent colors, whereas gouache uses opaque colors, which is shown quite evidently in the game, and the mix with anime is a match made in heaven, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and in case you're wondering where that came from: I used to study arts history...

But I'll agree that there are some things downgraded because of the hardware, which is why (and you might be able to add some insights to that as well) I suspect them to be able to use the original, higher quality assets used to make this version of the game on the NX.

From what I've always understood, development work starts on heavy graphics stations (PC workstations), and assets and game core are then transferred to a console dev kit to test and fine tune, which could also entail downgrading certain parts, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

If NX is on par with or slightly better than PS4, then I would at least expect an improved level of detail and higher quality textures, and some AA or anisotropic filtering should come with that as well but the frame rate fix should also be a given in that case.

@Kirk As for the NX in general, this most recent video might just assuage some of your concerns... (and remember: I said might)

Nintendo NX - Competitive Power Isn't Possible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwOxO-tjLX8

I'm hoping the colors are more vibrant on the NX version. I don't believe it to be so, but I'm hoping.

@Stu13
I couldn't have said it better myself. There are people on n4g moaning as if this is the final product Nintendo is shipping out. Not that I'm surprised there would be people acting that way, it's expected.

Hoping for a locked 30fps at 1080p at least on NX, though 1080p60 should really, really be the standard for all Nintendo games post NX, save for future Zelda titles.

@3MonthBeef The visuals were probably great to them until they found out it wasn't 1080p

It sucks to be a gamer now since it's all based on graphics and framerates. I don't care about the statistics. If it's a great game, I'm happy!

@GravyThief
Same. I think. lol

@JosieC84
I thought the same. Really sad that it's come to this.
Even if a game nails all the technical aspects and is perfect in that way, if it's not a good game then all those numbers don't mean anything.

I remember when the dip to 59fps in MK8 every few seconds rendered the game basically unplayable to some people.

@ThanosReXXX Well, to be clear, I just use the whole "toon-shaded" thing as a catch-all term now for any game that tries to look somewhat like a cartoon/comic/hand painted in a "toony" way, unless it has really obvious thick black lines around everything, and then I usually call it "cel-shading" in a kind of derogatory way because to me that's the way game artists tried to recapture the whole cartoon/comic look before they figured out the simple concepts of subtlety and pleasing aesthetics. So, all those examples I've posted previously would fit under my "toon-shaded" banner, even though they're actually quite different aesthetically in many ways.

I might use "cel-shaded" when the look has those very clear and thick black outlines like Jet Set Radio, but I generally only use that to describe games that I consider as using the rather outdated and fakey way of doing "toon-shading". And, for stuff that's actually supposed to look like it's painted with paints, I would normally just go with "painterly". When it's a game like Breath of the Wild, however, I'll maybe mix and match "toon-shaded" and painterly, but "toon-shaded" works fine for the most part with this game, and most people get the gist.

Remember, "toon-shading" isn't actually a term that was used before we started trying to mimic the look of cartoons/comics or hand-drawn/painted-"toon" stuff in computer graphics and particularly video games. So it's not an actual term used to describe any of those actual styles, just a computer representation of those styles, and I personally don't bother much if people use "cel-shading" or "toon-shading" to describe basically any style that tries to look a bit like a cartoon/anime/Manga/comic/illustration, as long as it looks a bit "cartoony".

If I were being "accurate" I'd likely call this new Zelda a mix of "toon-shaded" (mostly the characters), painterly (mostly the world/backgrounds), and computery "realism" (some of the textures and the shaders used for the bump-mapping and the like), but whichever way, it's a slightly conflicting overall art style and aesthetic as it's done here, imo.

Also, the specific thing that's "off" with Link in that image to me is the way the lighting works/looks on him. It looks very obviously like high contrast lighting being generated by a computer on a 3D model, with that slight kind of "plasticky/fake" sheen to it, or whatever it is, which, imo, isn't really a great way to do "toon-shading" and certainly not a more painterly style (although, like I said, I'd say the characters are basically "toon-shaded"), just like putting think black lines around everything isn't a very good way to make something look "cel-shaded" either, imo.

There's subtler and more artistically accomplished ways to get that kind of look right, like in some of the examples I've posted previously.

The recent Ace Attorney games on 3DS also do some of the best "toon-shading" I've seen personally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHZzLjVZ-RA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3MHzsOp04Y&list=FLPRNNGLAaYqhvf_xmif5RiQ&index=117

See, that's ^^^ pretty great "toon-shading". They look about as close to an actual anime cartoon as any 3D game I've seen, and in still shots I have no doubt you could convince people the images were of an actual anime. This, however is kinda meh "cel-shading" imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8E0-ouaAbM

It just looks a bit fake to me. Although, I guess it could be argued it's just a style choice that I don't particularly like as opposed to an unintentionally bad attempt at looking like a cartoon/comic, and it does go with the whole exaggerated look that graffiti usually has. In which case, I just don't like the graffiti look, and particular the computerised version of it as seen in Jet Set Radio.

And this is an example of cel-shading that just gets it all wrong imo, with both the way OOT fake outlines and that plasticky look of the lighting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKSNE1vcw90

I guess I really don't like the whole comic book version of "cel-shading", where, imo, it's usually just a way of using a visual "style/technique" to cover up what is simply bad artistry. Can't draw/model characters very well; make them highly stylistic or "cel-shaded", lol.

Anyway . . . for me, Breath of the Wild's look just isn't quite perfect. Although, at certain angles, when you can't really see any of the more meh textures and the lighting and bump-mapping shader aren't giving all the rocks and stuff a weird "realistic" and shiny/plasticky vibe to them, it can look pretty lovely.

I'd hope the move to NX can increase the quality of the textures and stuff, using higher-res versions, but I can't really say if it will or if it will just increase the general resolution of the game overall without really improving the textures themselves. And I'm not sure if it will have higher quality or higher poly models of some of the objects either, like the snow covered fir trees for example. I'd like it to but I expect it wont. It will surely add a few typical effects though, like maybe some anti-aliasing and whatever. That guy in one of the other videos you posted covered most of it pretty accurately.

PS. I love anime too, and particularly the Manga label of movies that were popular in the UK in the '90s: Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, 3x3 Eyes, Vampire Hunter D, RG Veda, Urotsukidoji, Wicked City, Monster City, Cyber City Oedo 808, First of the North Star, Space Adventure Cobra . . . all rate up there as some of the best animations I've ever watched. Don't really watch any of it these days though, as none of the recent stuff has really appealed to me.

@ThanosReXXX Yeah, none of that stuff assuages any of my fears. lol I'll not believe anything anyone says about NX until it's coming directly from Nintendo at this point. Anyone can make educated guesses and get it right X out of Y times. For me, the only things I can trust at this point is what Nintendo has said, and nothing Nintendo has said has particularly instilled with with any confidence in NX so far. We shall see.

I personally did notice the odd framerate drop here and there which I found myself really wishing did not exist.
For me the ultimate sense of freedom in the game could be tainted by such technical issues pulling you back out of the worlds immersion.
Am I the only one who feels that visually, the world seems a little flat and sparse? I think the game looks brilliant, and I'm hyped, but I suppose I just wanted a little more oomph in the visual department.
All the same, can't wait

@Charlosa Let's hope so. In the demo (at least in the footage of the demo online), the dips were very evident. Maybe not enough to be a deal breaker, but still enough to bother me tbh. The game is ambitious for the WiiU, so there might be some severe trade-offs in terms of performance. Maybe it would have been best to just move the whole project to the NX ...

@smashbrolink It would agree, that it's in part a subjective matter, how much you notice it, and how much you are bothered by it, but I did definitely see the frame rate drop significantly a number of times during the Treehouse demo. Without having the controller in hand, and being able to "feel" it's impact on responsiveness and such, it's hard to say whether it would be a dealbreaker or not (probably not though), it was DEFINITELY there, and I noticed it, so did others, as a friend told me, he was worried by the performance, which made me say, he shouldn't as Nintendo has proven capable on this in the past ... well, until I watched it myself that is ^^ Also, that was days before DF made their "analysis" (let's wait for the final code to be in their hands though...), and while I guess many people did not see it/or be bothered by it, I have no data to suggest to me, that it was a majority or even vast majority.

I grant you this though: Nintendo players are way less concerend in my experience, with technicalities, than others. I for one have a PC as well as a PS§/4/X360/1 next to my WiiU, so while I'Ve played Nintendo games all my life, I am not a Nintendo purist. (Probably also the reason I was always bothered by the lack of features for Nintendo's Online service, and while I could never ever buy a multiplatform game on any of their system - exclusives only I am afraid).

@Kirk Yeah... I'm afraid it wouldn't, but hey:
I DID say might, now didn't I?

As for the whole "toon-shading" thing, I can understand it's a handy label to put everything under, but I personally would never compare something like the later Zelda games, Ni no Kuni or Ace Attorney with World of Warcraft: that is what I would call "computery".

As for your explanation of what's off: I think that's more of a taste thing then, since I love the whole package, except for the sometimes too blurry backgrounds in comparison to the characters, but that is what you can get if you mix anime-like characters with 3D backgrounds. And it is something I think they will fix or at the very least improve in the NX version.

But there's so many styles of anime, so it is hard to say if something is correct or similar to it or not, but I could probably come up with a list of anime's that have characters that have the exact same style that Link has in this new Zelda game and the fact that the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw the trailer back in 2014 was "hey, an anime Link" speaks volumes to me, so for me it is a good representation of the Japanese anime style.

The edge of lighting around him can be a little too much at times, but to me it isn't all that disturbing. It's a game, and for me it doesn't have to be this sample of perfectionism that hasn't got any blemish or little fault.

Some of these things are actually the charms of these games for me, like the anime style splash and opaque ripples in the otherwise completely realistic looking water, simply brilliant...

It's tiny things like that which make me smile and make me say "yep, Nintendo, you've nailed it again" and the fact that it isn't perfect doesn't bother me at all, since it doesn't have to be.
(does make me wonder what you make of the "correctness" of the anime style in the Dragon Ball games, though)

And you certainly stepped on some more toes there, calling Jet Set Radio and XIII ugly. Back in the day these were great games, and me and my friends used to play them all the time. It was new and exciting then, and cell shading was the next big thing. And Jet Set Radio was indeed also an art style thingy, namely graffiti.

But it's just opinions, so it doesn't matter either way. We don't all have to like the same stuff.

Want to see really ugly? Take a look at Cell Damage, which I believe was one of the first commercially released cell-shaded games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03zZnKSkd0

And good to hear that you're a 90's anime fan, but even though you may not like all the newer stuff that has come out lately, there is so much in between, and such a high volume of releases in general, that I find it quite hard to believe that there is literally nothing amongst all that which could pique your interest.

But if you want old skool, try Fist of the North Star (edit: saw you already listed that one) and Sword of the Berserk, both have classics series as well as newer series, but the newer series are completely faithful to the old style, so if you like the originals, the new ones should suit you just fine too. Oh, and Ninja Scroll also has some more parts besides the motion picture. These came out several years later, made by the same people.

P.S.

I missed the answer to my game development question (last part of comment #93) in your reply here, so I hope you will still shed some light on that too, since it really interests me.

@Kirk And speaking of anime, how about Elfen Lied, Neon Genesis Evangelion and Attack on Titan? Not to your liking either?

I'd post the entire list of what I have, but that would be WAY too long to put here, and it is too much off topic, I suppose...

@HappyMaskedGuy No, you're not the only one, but several key people like Aonuma himself, Miyamoto and Bill Trinen have assured interviewers that there are HUGE areas not shown yet that will be either teeming with (wild)life or will be populated and will have villages and such, but they simply didn't want to give any of that away yet.

Was that a wrong decision on their part? Maybe, maybe not and seeing the reception that it got, I think they've done quite well already, even if they hardly gave anything away from the story.

But if the barren landscape and ruins truly point to this taking place after the Wind Waker, then it would make sense for it to be looking the way it is, since it is the part of Hyrule that used to be submerged in the sea, so large areas of open space, rocks, caves etc. makes sense, especially with all the salt to be found on those rocks...
(theorists are going wild about this already)

@ElkinFencer10 As the game has been stated to have been co-developed with Monolith Studios I'm expecting just 720p 30fps. Xenoblade X ran at the same and given the hardware so will this. Nintendo could have the NX "port" run at a higher resolution or better frame rate but likely wont. Still 60fps would be nice but outside of FPS and racing titles just isn't as necessary. 1080p would be nice on NX, but a quick release port wont create disparity between the NX and Wii U. Wii U owners would get the same experience (or better with the Gamepad) and not feel like they had to buy a new console to get the promised Zelda experience.

@rjejr Agreed, the Wii U is simply too long in the tooth to handle the vision that BotW has going for it. I bet a lot of the overly long development time has just been dedicated to trying to find a combination of features and output that won't overload the Wii U...

Yep, another reason to go for the NX version instead. It's not just about fidelity, frame rates, and resolution, it's also about whether the hardware can handle the features and scope of the project. And quite simply, the Wii U hardware cannot handle the grand scope that BotW grew into. Nintendo had to make sacrifices on the cutting room floor. (Such as the big, TP-like empty overworld.)

I don't understand why so many people here are trying so desperately to save face (or something) by framing the situation as merely being about resolution and frame rates. It's like a whirlwind of cognitive dissonance. Face it, this system was not meant to be able to handle big games without making big compromises.

@Kirk Personally, I'm going to wait and see for the NX version,and if that doesn't pan out either, then maybe the Wii U version will eventually get an unofficial HD version like TP. Perhaps then, another piece of the grand vision here will be met... But the overworld will still be relatively silent and empty.

Even the screenshot used for this article is a great example of masking the detail of the surrounding area. It looks nice from a distance, but go closer down to the ground, and I bet a lot of that is actually a "green desert" in practice. But then again, the Zelda series has been guilty of this going as far back as Ocarina of Time's overworld.

@PlywoodStick "the Wii U is simply too long in the tooth to handle the vision that (insert game here) has going for it."

Been that way since the day it was created, hardware has always been underpowered from the start for what they had in mind.

http://www.gamezone.com/news/wii-u-dual-gamepad-functionality-coming-next-year-says-nintendo

I do think all the extra time will mean they get it done though. NX should be a better version, but on it's own Wii U version should be fine. <fingers crossed> Well once they give me my real time map back. Would be nice if Wii U could get the game in time for the holidays and the NX version when that launched, give us Wii U owners a little compensation for the two 1 year delays.

@Project_Dolphin "Then why did Nintendo bother to release Zelda for the Wii U? They could've just released Zelda for the NX instead, could they not?"

Well they could, but that would mean no new exclusive Zelda game on Wii U, only WW HD and TP HD. And that would probably not make all the people who bought a Wii U since E3 2014 when this game was announced as a Wii U exclusive very happy. So they would risk getting the NX off on a very bad foot, marketing the game we never got on Wii U that was promised to us 3 years ago. I just think that's too much bad publicity for the NX launch, and Nintendo really needs for the NX launch to be almost perfect.

They'll figure out a way to get this game running on Wii U, even if it means stripping out things to get there, like they stripped out a lot to get Hyrule Warriors running on the original 3DS. It's taken them this long, they won't quit now, even if maybe they should. 13.5mil Wii U owners may be a small number of people to have mad at them, but they would spread the word everywhere, and that could hurt NX sales. Not sales of the game, sales of the console, which really has to be a bigger worry as it's the companies future.

And they could always fall back on Inafune's quote for a bad Wii U version - "better than nothing".

@Project_Dolphin I suspect the project which became BotW was originally nowhere near the scope that it has now grown into. I don't know if that's a result of feature creep, since I wouldn't think Aonuma could be susceptible to poor planning with his sky high level of experience. But I'm willing to bet that back in 2013, no one at Nintendo had any idea the scope of the project would outgrow the Wii U's capabilities. They probably began to realize it back in 2014, and were finally given a gargantuan wake up call slap to the face by reality in 2015.

The end result (on Wii U, at least) will be their titularly legendary effort to hack, slash, and cram the most important pieces in, leaving out a significant amount of flesh. It makes me recall an interview recorded for the Genesis Collection on PSP/PS3 by the lead manager of Phantasy Star 3 on the Genesis. He gave his impression that those constraints were finally lifted, almost 15 years after his project's completion.

Phantasy Star 3, like BotW, was a project with a scope that outgrew the limitations of the system, forcing the world of the game to be emptier than intended. Back in the 90s, it was all too common to have to trim flesh to fit everything into the tiny technical constraints of the time. It would seem that problem has actually not yet left us.

@rjejr Jeez, that makes BotW sound like it's nothing more than a disposable Hylian shield against a big drop in reputation...

@ThanosReXXX With the World of Warcraft example I was really just meaning the fact that all the textures are actually clearly hand painted (well, painted in Photoshop or whatever, but proper art drawn/painted directly), which is something I think the best "toon-shaded" games should try to do in general, rather than have the computer fake the "toon-shaded" effect. It's the same reason the backgrounds look so great in Ni No Kuni II. So, I like the particular example of WoW that I posted for that reason and would def love to see more games go for basically the same approach where they're rendered in 3D but all the textures are actually lovingly painted by proper 2D artists as if they were in fact creating 2D art like you'd see in a cartoon or illustration. They can, however, leave of the smooth shading on the polygons if they want (looks like some kind of gouraud shading).

This game has a great look to the world/backgrounds that I think would have looked awesome in the new Zelda game, and especially if they added a little bit of the current Zelda painterly style in there just so it's not too simple/flat visually in places (but with none of the fugly bits from Zelda's graphics):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q7CZiU8roU (it's maybe actually the quality of presentation as much as the aesthetic)

I really am a bit of a perfectionist. lol

Yeah, I just never really liked many of the early attempts at "cell-shading", they're just a bit too obviously a computer image trying to look like a cartoon but ultimately still looking like a computer image imo, but I can appreciate that other people did like them.

What exactly are you asking about the game dev stuff?

@ThanosReXXX Nah, I'm just not that into the new anime stuff, and to be clear, I've never really watched the any of the episodic series anyway. I'm far too lazy (My mate did buy me one of the series of Fist of the North star on DVD though, which I gave a watch and thought was pretty good). But I generally just like a movie that lasts a couple of hours and also tends to have a little bit better production value too, so it usually looks more polished and higher quality overall. Anime stuff doesn't often come close to Disney quality of animations, it's usually focuses less on top/world class animation and more just very cool poses and framing (almost like their comics come to life), but they really do go for it a bit more in the actual movies, and especially stuff like Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Ninja Scroll. That stuff is right up there in terms of the actual animation quality imo.

@3MonthBeef I've never cared about frame rates of resolution. It makes me disgusted with modern gaming that so many column inches have been devoted to resolution and frame rates.

It helps that throughout the entirety of my gaming life (grew up in the 80s) I've focused on interesting game play experiences first and graphics second. Also never had a bleeding edge gaming PC. My 7850 I bought 4 years ago was the closest I got

@JosieC84 I bet nobody even asked what the framerate was on Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask when they came out. I can't imagine there being massive rows about the textures and draw distances before it was released. Now people can't even see the game for the graphics.

@jsty3105 "It makes me disgusted with modern gaming that so many column inches have been devoted to resolution and frame rates."

It's a sad state of affairs. In some ways I hope for an industry implosion to kill off this graphical arms race. Bring it back to gameplay first.

@Kirk I can see your point on being against the computer faking hand painted, so we're in agreement there, but I still like the "real" paint style more, such as displayed in the later Zelda games, or in other words: the styles based on actual paint styles and methods. I do like the Warcraft games, but I can't honestly say that I find them to be beautifully shaded or painted. (my personal opinion, so no need to give me new examples, in case that crosses your mind, you're not going to convince me there, )

Agreed on the mix of Ni No Kuni and Zelda, not agreed on the graphics being "fugly". That's a bit of an exaggeration imho, but then again, that is YOUR opinion, so I'll respect that and we'll just have to agree to disagree. It could have been a bit better, though but that is also more than likely the trade-off for having such a HUGE world on a system that can barely handle it.

The fact that they have achieved it regardless of the hardware, and STILL made it look as nice as it does (even with all the aforementioned shortcomings) should however be more than enough to applaud Aonuma and his team, and it is a testament to their talent that they have gleaned as much from the hardware as they have.

And I think that the credits they have received for the game from media worldwide speaks volumes in and of itself. Apparently these parties were also more than able to look past its shortcomings, and perhaps a lot of us should do the same...

I wasn't impressed by that RIME trailer. To me, it looked like a lesser quality adventure and painting style-wise, it somehow reminded me of No Man's Sky, another game we could list in the toon-shaded category. And it is yet another game that doesn't interest me...

"I really am a bit of a perfectionist. lol"

Yes, you sure are. Being a developer yourself, I can imagine where you're coming from and how you would be looking with a different eye, but I couldn't live like that when it concerns something as simple as a hobby that is purely meant for entertainment.

All forms of entertainment will invariably have one flaw or another, but in my mind that's okay. Perfection is highly overrated anyways, and boring as f**k. If I had to look out for everything that is wrong in my games, music and movies/TV series that I enjoy, then I probably would have a pretty stressful life, and to me these things represent the exact opposite of that: they must allow me to let go, relax and escape my daily dealings with real life issues.

So I'm going to overlook some minor imperfections in the process and simply enjoy what IS offered, instead of concentrating on what is not. It really is the better option, since no one is going to remake the song, game or movie for me simply because of some parts in them that irk me, so I simply choose to enjoy them.

As for the answer to my game development question, it is mentioned (like I said before) in the last part of comment #93, so simply scroll back and the question is right there. Starts with: "From what I've always understood... "

Maybe you didn't see the question in there because it doesn't end in a question mark, but I did ask you to correct what I wrote there, in case my understanding of the process is wrong.

"Nah, I'm just not that into the new anime stuff"

Well, imho you truly deprive yourself of a lot of good stuff then, and if you're appreciative of anime, then why should you not keep an eye on things and try out some stuff every now and then? And you can even stream a whole lot of series online without ever having to buy anything, so you can watch a bit, and what you like you keep following and otherwise not. (obviously)

And although I really like Disney movies, especially all the Pixar ones, I can definitely not agree that anime isn't on par quality wise. In fact, often times it is much, much better.
Just take a look at anime movies like Princess Mononoke, Origins: Spirits of the Past and the later Macross movies and series.

And for something really beautiful, both animation and painting-wise, look no further than the 3 part OVA 5 centimeters per second:

Actually a must-see/must-have if you like anime...

Anyway, nice conversation, some interesting topics, although some of it a tad too rich for my taste seeing as it concerns a pass time...

@jsty3105 Couldn't agree more, I positively HATE all this focus on frame rates and resolutions. Beautiful games or fun games can be made regardless.

Somehow I have a feeling that the Sony fanboys and the PC Master race started this negative spiral. Sony always had the tech talk presentations and Microsoft followed suit, and the PC gamers mostly talk about upgrading hardware, maxing out settings and also nag about console gaming holding them down when it concerns multi-platform releases. (although they do have a point there)

Why can't gaming just be an enjoyable way of passing the time without having to put every single part of a game under the microscope?

Might be good to take a sabbatical from the internet every now and then, is what I always think, but somehow they always manage to keep me hanging around.

Must be because I wouldn't want to miss all the nice and down to earth people either...

@PlywoodStick @rjejr From what I've understood, nothing is sacrificed content-wise, so the barren fields are intentional and would make sense if this game takes place after the Wind Waker so we are actually looking at the re-emerged capital of Hyrule, that previously resided on the bottom of the sea. The overall look with large plains, ruins and caves and all that does support that theory. And the rocks and mountains also fit that picture. (and why is there salt residue to be found on the rocks? hm... )

And as was said by most of the spokespeople concerning this title (Bill Trinen, Shigeru Miyamoto and Eiji Aonuma himself among them) they didn't show any more populated areas on purpose, so as not to spoil the surprise.

And even with what little they showed, they still got a game of show award, the most buzz on social media, the longest waiting lines across the entire event and so many previews are so, so positive even with all of the shortcomings that the game does honestly have.

I fully expect the NX to lock the frame rate (on 30fps, 60 isn't necessary for this type of game) be better graphics-wise (the much coveted 1080p) and have some additional effects.
It is not going to be a stellar difference, but it will definitely perform better and have some minor touch pus in the graphics department.

This video more than adequately describes what can realistically be expected from the NX version:

This makes me a bit sad, comparing to Xbox 360 and ps3...

Why of why is Nintendo so behind.

@Sanicranfast wow... way to sell new hardware Nintendo.

@Danrenfroe2016 You need to read further than his baseless comment. The NX version IS going to look better. Either look at the video in my comment above yours, or click on the article links in comment nr #83...

And the last gen consoles couldn't run this game if they tried. It might not be completely with the times, but it squeezes every last bit out of the Wii U. (hence the frame rate niggles and LOD and pop-in issues, but the positive trade-off is that there is an ENORMOUS world to explore)

@RedeadLink Yep, exactly. It's the "forgive Nintendo, chastise others" double standard. I feel bad about making that assertation, yet... There are examples of that right here in this comment section.

@Kirk How about Jet Set Radio? That was cel-shading in 2000, but I think the Dreamcast pulled it off very well for the time.

@ThanosReXXX Well, understand that I was talking about the average Disney movie vs the average anime movie in terms of Disney being in another league when it comes to the quality of the animation in general, and I'm specifically talking about purely the animation. Pretty much all Disney animated movies put the actual animation quality right at the top of the list of things they polish to the highest degree, whereas the average anime film puts more emphasis on setting up really cool shots and framing the action over the pure animation, almost like motion comics. Basically, they usually use less key frames of animation on average, especially on secondary/background characters, and often even use almost entirely static images for entire shots with maybe just a simple camera zoom or pan. The very best Anime can obviously match Disney, hence my examples of Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Ninja Scroll. But those films, and the likes of Princess Mononoke, are like the absolute cream of the anime crop, whereas almost every single Disney animated movie is the cream of the crop in terms of world class animation quality. Disney's overall animation standard is, without any debate, leagues ahead of the average anime. Note: I'm not talking about the particular style of the films, the characters, which ones people like more, or whatever, just the quality of the actual animation on average, and Disney (and Pixar) is still up there at the top and putting out the highest quality animation bar none in pretty much every single one of its movies, even if other movies also reach that quality at times. But no animation company on the planet is at consistently a high standard as Disney or has as many movies at the quality.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the in-game visuals in the World of Warcraft games, just the specific "toon-shaded" approach they went for in the example cinematic I posted, which I like. But, on a personal level, I do think the in-game stuff is pretty nice too in its simple "toon-shaded" way, only lacking some detail because it's having to display an entire MMO game world and all the players together.

Each to their own with the Rime thing, and I can actually see where you're coming from. I thought some of the points might be raised, which is why I tried to add in to imagine that style kind crossed with the style in Breath of the Wild somewhat. lol

It's not "stressful" having such high/picky standards; it's just that not much stuff lives up to them so I don't have huge list of things I love or that I consider on such a level. But there are examples: Mother 3 is a game I played for the first time in roughly the last year and it sits right up there for me personally. It reaches the highest standards in every way as far as I'm concerned, including presentation and graphics/visuals.

I can't really answer the game development question because I'm not entirely getting what you're actually asking/expecting. You're understanding of the process is one thing, but what exactly are you asking me to detail/clarify (if I even can)?

I'll go have a look at that animation you linked. . . .

Edit: Yeah, that looks really nice all round.

@PlywoodStick Personally, I never liked that style. I'm picky about what I consider great "cel-shading" or "toon-shading". I think some of the recent 3D Ace Attorney games have great toon-shading, and Ni No Kuni II has great toon-shading. I even like the toon-shading in Skyward Sword for the most part, other than the extreme blurring that often happens the distance, although, to be fair, that's more a mix of toon-shaded characters but a sort of painted style for the backgrounds.

@Kirk I'll agree on the consistency of Disney's output, but there is one thing that we can't overlook, and that is that we are doing and apples and oranges comparison, since most if not all of Disney's output is now in 3D, while most anime although to some extent also containing some 3D animation, is mostly traditional/2D animation, and in that aspect, if you compare what Disney has (both of its own and from the purchase of Marvel) truly is LEAGUES behind the higher segment of anime.

And the anime titles you named aren't even the top tier animes anymore. They used to be, but now they are classics and somewhat outdated, even though they are still quality releases and good movies in their own right.

If you look at the animation of the Marvel cartoons, then these are WAY simpler than most animes and definitely can't compare with the higher quality ones. The titles I gave you as well as the short trailer clearly show that.

Maybe it is also because the Japanese have a much longer history of animating their stories and they are still doing it on such a large scale, whereas in the Western world, 2D has largely taken a backseat to 3D animation.

So, if we do an honest comparison with all of Disney's 2D efforts, then the very best in anime can not only match Disney, it surpasses it, by far. Much more refined color use and palette, and better and/or more elaborate animations.

But if we are talking past each other because you are primarily looking at it with your point of view (technical/consistency), and mine is based on different aspects (more artistic/aesthetics) then we'd probably better stop taking over this topic...

P.S.

Still waiting on your words of wisdom concerning comment nr. 93...

@ThanosReXXX Yeah, true. I actually miss Disney's 2D stuff. On a sort of side note but not: The Paperman short film was utterly brilliant and stunning imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF9uz3EGSok (set it to 2D and HD)

In fact, it's one of the best examples of "toon-shading" I've ever seen. lol

Akira is still pretty much unmatched across the whole of anime imo, even with all the Ghibli stuff. To me, that's about the best anime I've ever seen in terms of overall quality and production value of the actual animation going on. Although, it's totally fair and reasonable of anyone to claim Ghibli stuff is basically the best anime they've ever seen, as it is absolutely some of the very best animation of all time.

I don't even count the Marvel cartoons. lol Are you on about Marvel TV animated series or something? I'm only talking about animated movies here, because generally I don't think any animated TV stuff really comes close to matching the animated movies, Disney or anime. So there's no point in using TV shows as examples of truly stunning animation for me personally.

OK, ask me the 93 thing again as a simple/clear question right now and I'll give it a go. . . .

@Kirk I'll just copy/paste it from the original. The whole point of me reminding you and pointing you towards that comment was to NOT have to type it again... Oh, well. Here it is then:

"From what I've always understood, development work starts on heavy graphics stations (PC workstations), and assets and game core are then transferred to a console dev kit to test and fine tune, which could also entail downgrading certain parts, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong."

(see? it was a simple/clear question... )

@PlywoodStick Well, not that I feel you were talking about me, but I have to answer anyway: he mentioned Watch_Dogs as a comparison of what people complain about, but in all honesty: that was a mess (no, a turd) of a game and a humongous glitch fest, so it isn't really a good comparison with the new Zelda game. Even the PC version was horrible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idA9BEA4Hxs

And since Zelda is still in beta version it honestly cannot even be compared with any game yet. And they still have some time to iron the kinks out, so the final verdict has to be put on hold for a bit longer...

@ThanosReXXX Nope, you're basically not wrong. lol

So, yes, the NX version could indeed use higher quality assets and stuff, certainly higher-res textures for example, if that's what they decide to do—which is I think what you're really getting at.

@Kirk Cheers. I can sleep peacefully now...

@ThanosReXXX Good good.

Did you watch the Paperman animation, and what did you think if you did?

@Kirk Paperman? Must have missed that one.
But I'll trade you that one for the other question you missed in some of today's comments:
I was wondering how you felt about the anime "correctness" of the Dragon Ball games...

@ThanosReXXX Here's the link for Paperman again in case you didn't realise I put it in my other post:

https://youtu.be/JF9uz3EGSok (set it to 2D and HD)

Well, there's quite a few of the DBZ games, but I'd say that they can sometimes look pretty good in certain aspects of the visuals, with often a pretty decent attempt at the whole toon-shaded apporach, and other times look a bit meh. None of them nail the look perfectly for me, not that I recall anyway. And, I'm not really interested in the games themselves so I don't really give them much attention regardless.

@Kirk Yeah, I figured as much, but in an earlier comment I thought I'd mention them since we were both listing anime inspired games...

@ThanosReXXX I gets ya.

@Kirk One last comment about the whole Marvel thing: yes I'm a fan, more of the comics and the real life movies, though, although I did always watch those 90's series.

The whole point of me mentioning them was just to get a real 2D animation comparison, but the point was a bit moot after all, since our points of view from which we were discussing it were off.

Watched the Paperman animation and now I remember having seen that before, and yes, that is brilliant too. I also love the fact that there's no voice acting in it. (sneaky new Zelda game reference, heheheh... )

Did you know that there is also a somewhat similar live action version of that animation?
It's called SIGNS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qn9g1wvsgM
Quite a touching version as well, in my opinion...

And as a last call for anime: Ghibli is absolutely nice, although both the styles and the quality vary, but try Origin: Spirits of the Past. It is both a great story and a beautifully drawn and painted movie.

If you do, let me know your verdict.

And by the way, what did you think of the 5 centimeter per second trailer in comment #128?

@ThanosReXXX Lol Good point about the no voice acting. Kudos.

Yeah, I thought the 5 centimeter per second trailer looked great.

I'll have a look at the link and at Origin: Spirits of the Past too.

@Kirk Good, I'm interested to have your opinion on both. Here's some movie posters of Origin to give you a bit of an idea:
http://www.ipicstorage.com/images/origin-spirits-of-the-past/origin_-_spirits_of_the_p_279_1280.jpg
http://etherealgames.com/wallpapers/anime/origin_spirits_of_the_past/origin_spirits_of_the_past_002_1280x1024.jpg
http://www.ipicstorage.com/images/origin-spirits-of-the-past/origin_-_spirits_of_the_p_280_1280.jpg
http://www.new-anime.com/images/origin-spirits-of-the-past_3.jpg

And the DVD cover so you can read what the story's about:
http://img.affenheimtheater.de/cover_br/cover_origin_uk.jpg

@Kirk And because we agree on 5 centimeters per second, here's the entire OVA on YouTube:

English Subbed, original language, 1080p:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVbnt4vQE6w

And if you can't stand Japanese, here's the dubbed one in 720p:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5eMYyCYwVg

Well, I'm off, have a good night. Talk to you later.

@ThanosReXXX I'll give it a watch.

Loved the Signs short. Wasn't too sure about the Origins animation because I'm not a total fan of the particular character designs—I'm real picky about characters and particularly their faces, lol—but the rest of the look was very nice and I expect the story might be pretty powerful.

Edit: Actually, the characters are fine on second viewing, watching a different trailer.

I've give 5 cps a watch.

Cheers.

Later.

If the NX version has reduced pop in, that would be a huge difference between the NX and Wii U versions. Pop in makes the world feel less immersive (anyone recall running across a continent in Xenoblade Chronicles X, seeing a level 40 monster pop in for the first time inches away from your level 20 character, and promptly get defeated?) and if they reduce pop in on the NX that would substantially make a better Zelda experience on NX. If they just stuck to 1080p 30fps on NX, it shouldn't be much of a difference to Wii U owners, but anything else (such as reduced pop in, etc.) may make a huge impact on the gameplay experience.

While I am very excited about this game and understand the marketing strategy behind the dual release, it is another sad example of nintendos wii u failure. They announced the game a long time ago, people who bought the wii u were looking forward to it only to realize its going to be delayed until the launch of the Nx. I think if it was released as planned only on wii u it would have been optimised for it, maybe smaller, maybe a little bit less content but definitely a great game.

@WiltonRoots I'm guessing you never read magazines like Next Generation... You better believe that back in the 90s, professionals were asking about (and providing) all the juicy technical details, including shaders, mipmapping, draw distance, polygon counts, and yes, hardware specs and frame rates. It just wasn't talked about as often, because the internet wasn't widespread yet, and most gaming publications catered to being either family friendly or geared towards teens back then. The adult focused publications did indeed focus on technical details, in addition to other things.

@ThanosReXXX Seems like a bit of a plot device to allow green yet barren landscapes, but oh well, I'm looking forward to further details. And by green yet barren, I mean something like a huge lawn: maybe some trees interspersed throughout, but little biodiversity.

And it's true that Watch Dogs was full of technical blunders, but it's still funny that we seem to focus on those things when they're made by third parties, but whenever Nintendo doesn't exactly showcase perfection, we seem to gloss over it.

@PlywoodStick Well, that may be true for some blind fanboys in general, but my point stands: you can't compare a beta demo version with a completed product, and they showed nothing on purpose. Look up the interviews with Bill Trinen saying as much.

There are going to be villages, people, animals and other creatures. Heck, animals were even in the trailer, and also in the older trailers, so I wouldn't worry too much.

And have you ever seen an ocean floor in the middle of the ocean? If my guess is correct and this is indeed Hyrule after the Wind Waker, then this more than adequately explains the barren landscape in this section of the game. But just take a look at that map and see how small of a section it was:

I would certainly expect there to be a whole lot of different kinds of landscapes and flora and fauna, and obviously also races of all different kinds, just like in previous Zelda games.

All in all, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it just yet. Way too long until it finally arrives, so if I keep stressing about things like that until then, I will either be grey, bald or dead, so I'll leave all the worrying up to others...

@PlywoodStick I used to occasionally read Edge magazine which was incredibly serious. And prior to that, ACE. Next Generation seemed to be the American equivalent.

Edge used to have these long developer articles about some drab PC adventure game which were more often than not complete snoozefests, all tech and no game, akin to what hifi enthusiast mags can be like. Digital Foundry reminds me of those magazines, made even duller by the monotonous commentators. Unfortunately there was no real middle ground as far as gaming magazines were concerned. You had a choice between the above or juvenile.

@WiltonRoots That's unfortunate, Next Gen was way more interesting than that.

@ThanosReXXX That is such an awesome map... Just slightly too high tech for Zelda, but I like the idea of a renewing landscape coming back to life after an apocalypse. Maybe Zelda could take a page from Okami, which was inspired by Zelda? There's something about well done high fantasy/sci-fi mixes that has always made me giddy... But this has a lot of potential, too... I'm just going to wait and see for the NX version.

@PlywoodStick Yeah, I agree, a little too sci-fi like. Probably has to do with matching the aesthetics of the shrines and all that.

I liked the original map better:

But when you zoom in on the new map, it's more like a "normal" map, so it'll probably be alright:

@ThanosReXXX but again, this has all been done before on other consoles... nintendo acts like its new.

i remember when the N64 was cutting edge (except for the cart lol)

@Danrenfroe2016 A whole shedload of people also feel it's new. Not just Nintendo. You're in the minority here...

@Danrenfroe2016 Yeah, well to them it IS new. Just because someone else has already done something, doesn't mean that it isn't a big thing anymore for someone else...

This is the biggest Zelda game they ever made, from all official statements now made we certainly can expect that it will look considerably better on the NX home console, and it will always be a special thing because it's Zelda and only Nintendo can make franchises like these in the way they do, and that in and of itself is already something that sets them apart...

And to add to that: from what is known so far, you can actually travel to any place that you can see in the distance or on a map, and I don't know for sure if that is something that has already been done before or at least done how Nintendo has done it here.

Most of the times there are either invisible barriers, or you just "hop" from one place on the map to the other. Here you actually have to travel the entire distance by foot, boat, horse or paragliding, making the in-game world seem all the bigger because of it.

Either way, this is going to be a BIG game for them, both on Wii U and NX...