News Article

Developers Weigh In On The Way Forward For Wii U

Posted by Thomas Whitehead

"The system plays host to a bunch of great, very unique games"

Following Nintendo's E3 exploits, we now have a greater idea of what content is coming to the Wii U in the remainder of 2014 and beyond. It was an event with some genuine surprises, combined with expected details, and laid out the path for the system — GamePad included — for the short and medium term.

Of course, the fate of the Wii U remains a hot talking point in the game industry, primarily due to its struggles pre-Mario Kart 8 and questions over how big an impact the racer and future titles will have on its prospects. There's still optimism, of course, though the sales future of the console is undeniably uncertain.

For its part GamesTM magazine's latest issue has produced a feature exploring the Wii U's troubled history to date and its route forward, all from a pre-E3 perspective. Four development figures are consulted, and have various views on why the console has struggled for impact. Independent developer Dan Pearce partially attributes its early struggles to it being a transitional system, arriving at an awkward time to capture a userbase.

I think a large part of it is down to the Wii being a plug for a huge gap in the market for casual players and the Wii U being kind of a transitional console. Between the Wii launch and the Wii U launch, the App Store blew up, and it made the Wii U's position as both a core gaming machine and a casual gaming machine kind of redundant. Obviously there are many, many more factors at play here, but that's the one that sticks out the most to me

Brjann Sigurgeirsson of Image & Form, which has seen success with SteamWorld Dig on the 3DS eShop and is now bringing the title to Wii U, highlights problems at launch and with subsequent branding.

There were no real system-sellers at launch, strange hardware specs which ruled out the [Basic SKU] as a viable purchase, and stronger next-gen competitor consoles looming on the horizon. But mainly I think Nintendo has failed to tell the public what the Wii U is, who should buy it and why. I've never seen the unit itself properly branded. Is it a family console? In that case, how and why should people let it replace their Wii units. Or is it a gamer console? In that case, where are the really strong titles?

...Maybe Nintendo doesn't feel the need to brand or even push the Wii U. But if not worrying in the past becomes the strongest argument for not worrying about the future, then we have a meta-discussion instead of a clear vision forward. It's not like Nintendo can simply whip out a new console and apologise for the Wii U. That would drive the community mad, and could put them where Apple was in the Nineties, with short hardware cycles and confused customers in droves.

Dakko Dakko's Rhodri Broadbent, whose studio just recently released Scram Kitty and his Buddy on Rails on the Wii U eShop, highlights that the system struggled with a slow start and lack of word-of-mouth, though emphasized that "the system now plays hosts to a bunch of great, very unique games". He also addresses comparisons between Nintendo success at revitalising 3DS with its Wii U efforts.

They're definitely applying the same strategy, but the scale of the work required to bring games out on HD home console hardware is daunting. Delays are commonplace if not standard nowawdays, right? Having to schedule a constant stream of big hitters is a big task, but hopefully the eShop provides a good way to keep games coming at a steady rate.

The eShop is widely considered as a key selling point for the system, with a general consensus that it can attract exciting products due to the potential exposure it can offer as opposed to the excessively busy iOS and Android markets, as examples. Sigurgeirsson suggests that promoting third-parties on the store should be an even higher priority, while Pearce explains that he's heard that communication with Nintendo can be difficult. Dakko Dakko's Broadbent suggests the tools are all in place with the Wii U store, but that Nintendo may not be as vocal as its rivals in courting download developers.

They are at all the right shows, and the Unity deal is a great way to bring in more games — and they did that early, too. Could they shout about it more loudly? I think it's a cultural thing, and I guess that might prevent some developers from feeling that they are being suitably courted by Nintendo, which would be a shame. But from our experience, we saw the system, approached them with an idea, and got on with it. It strikes me this is all that's really needed.

Plenty of interesting comments to digest, though we will leave you with the sign-off from Lorne Lanning, best known for the Oddworld series.

Everyone was starting to write [Nintendo] off, and then the Wii hit. And not long after that, it was the most successful entertainment company in history. I don't know what its next steps are, but — I've said this before — I wouldn't be against Nintendo.


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User Comments (97)




Well i have watched the nintendo E3 digital event and if that is what we have to look forward to,apart from the Zelda game,a mario game with toad in his place, Wooly Yoshi,Mario maker, (Little Big Planet copy) and the other rubbish.No Mario Golf for Wii U,no gamecube updated games for E shop,no wonder developers are not interested,pathetic Nintendo



JamesCoote said:

They are definitely far too timid when it comes to attracting developers to the system (especially indies). They don't have to necessarily make a big song and dance about it either (like Sony do) if that's not their style.



rmeyer said:

Sit back and make high quality games. Court the heavy hitters. They really should try to get Destiny on the Wii U since it's probably going to be big.



Datasun_7 said:

@LEGENDnoONE so if Nintendo doesn't make YET another Mario game, you deem them pathetic? Wow. They show two new IPs, loads of awesome looking games and you judge them for not announcing a another game in a series which had an entry last month on the 3DS? Now I know why some people say gamers are entitled.



Emblem said:

@LEGENDnoONE I'll bite your troll bait, Sonic was actually the first console game with a level editor via debug mode that gave access to mod tools if memory serves.

Also LBP is a physics based platforming/puzzsolving game with extensive customisability and creation options. Mario is not physics based at all and Mario maker is clearly not about customisation but rather using a set amount of props to create interesting courses.



DarkJamD said:

LEGENDnoONE: Mario Maker is Little Big Planet copy? Under what rock you have been when games had map editors? It's as much copy of LBP as Hotline Miami 2. (which actually feels like copy of "Tapan Kaikki")



FragRed said:

@rmeyer I don't think Destiny would be a system seller for the Wii U. Anyone who is going to buy those kind of games will do so on PS4 and Xbox One.

@LEGENDnoONE A huge number of people were asking for Toad to get his own game right after Mario 3D World launched so that was a smart move by Nintendo. And as for the rest of the games announced, from what I have seen there has been a lot of praise.



Marshi said:

@LEGENDnoONE Really? You are literally the only person ive seen give critisism to nintendo this e3. I thought they were great with some amazing games in the pipeline. Seriously mate if games like Hyrule warriors, Yoshis wooly world, Bayonetta 2, mario maker and splatoon dont entice you,i think you've bought the wrong console!



Datasun_7 said:

@LEGENDnoONE well you just listed them. I know you are just trolling but still man, I really hope you aren't blind enough to see that the games they showed will be fantastic.



kyuubikid213 said:

I was impressed with Nintendo's E3.

I didn't watch Sony or Microsoft's, but from what I heard, it wasn't all that impressive with them showing mostly 3rd party titles.



rmeyer said:

@FragRed it didn't have anything too mature or scary. I think the Wii U would be an opportunity to attract new players to Destiny. You'll get the same old dudebros from the other two consoles. But it Activision wants to grow the fan base Wii U would be a way to do that.



FragRed said:

@rmeyer If this had been 2 years ago, I would have agreed and said yes Activision would likely look at things that way and get it ported over. However, with the huge sales increase in Wii U recently thanks to Mario Kart 8, Activision did announce Modern Warfare so maybe it will happen. Just a question of whether the expense of not just porting but actually making use of the gamepad would be worth it



Darknyht said:

I think Nintendo was caught off guard by the events of 2011 that carried into 2012. At that point they had committed to a launch date for the Wii U, and counted on Third Party releases to shore up a weak Nintendo launch library (NSMB U, Nintendoland, Sing Party, Ninja Gaiden 3). What they got were gimped releases and old ports. Third Parties had five months (March 2013) to produce something great on the console before Nintendo's fifth game, Lego City Undercover, but did little to nothing. Ubisoft could have made a killing by releasing Rayman during that time (sort of like they have by releasing Watch Dogs while nothing else is available on XBO and PS4).

It wasn't until August of 2013 that Nintendo (There was Game & Wario in June) started to get back on track and was turning out a game a month. So to argue that Third Parties couldn't compete with Nintendo titles is wrong, there were no Nintendo titles on the console for almost a year. It was just that Third Party developers couldn't or wouldn't get their act together and produce something of quality. So depending on Third Party support showed to not be a winning strategy for Nintendo.

Now we have a fully functional Nintendo pushing something every month and filling out their library. This should be a vastly different year for Nintendo (and Nintendo fans) than the past 18 months.



FragRed said:

@Darknyht Oh I do totally agree with you, and I have so far 8 Wii U games pre-ordered but will be no doubt adding to that list. I don't mind repeating myself about having done so because I am hugely proud to be a Nintendo customer. You know when Nintendo release a video game it will be of highest quality with.



Sir_JBizzle said:

@LEGENDnoONE let's not forget Nintendo has this thing they do called Directs, which sometimes yield information on new games. I wouldn't be surprised if the filled in their catalog by announcing more games via that format. But hey if Wii U isn't your cup of tea, fine.

Also, if they have anything to announce about GameCube games, I don't think it's happening til close to time for the release of Smash, being that's when we'll likely see the GameCube adapter...




I personally am delighted with my Wii U day one purchase. It may not have the third party support of other consoles, however for me Sony and Microsoft's 1st party efforts aren't nearly as appealing to me as Nintendo's.

That may be my personal opinion and other's are entitled to disagree, however I have had nothing but good experiences with my Wii U, and E3 has shown me that I will continue to have an amazing experience long term.



faint said:

@LEGENDnoONE when i see an overly negative comment from a poster without an avatar i always got to their profile and look into their comment history. you sir are a troll.



FragRed said:

@JQuest My concern with Nintendo announcing Gamecube games for the Wii U is that they haven't been exactly great with porting games from other consoles over so far.




I have had the wii u since launch date,I love the console and I agree about the directs,but the e shop releases each week are terrible



FragRed said:

@S-Miyahon Apologies I should have made myself a lot more clear, I meant not in how badly they were ported but how Nintendo only seem to release one new VC game per week, if we are lucky.



ManateeBlubber said:

@Datasun_7 Amen to that. Who cares if the Wii U isn't selling as well as the PS4 and Xbox One? Who cares if it isn't as powerful? I've loved Nintendo for all of my life, and I hated the 360 and the PS3 appeals to me for a couple of exclusives.
@LEGENDnoONE You just need to get your drawers out of a wad. There are great games that come to the eShop, and the E3 lineup from Nintendo was miles better than the other showings. Also, why are you angry about "no Mario Golf Wii U"? They just released a new game a little over a month ago, and last year I think they began to understand that they were oversaturatig the market with Mario after Mario game. Seriously? 2 new IPS and Star Fox weren't enough to shut you up?



ManateeBlubber said:

@FragRed That is a little disappointing. I mean, they have a great lineup of older games, but all they release are NES games that nobody cares about. The Wii had a great lineup of old systems, and I would love to play N64 VC with the GamePad instead of having to buy a classic controller.



FragRed said:

@S-Miyahon Yeah that was my bad. I just worry that adding more consoles to the mix will further slow down releases. I can't get my head around how Nintendo managed so many weekly releases on the Wii but struggle to do one per week on Wii U. I guess it is one of many odd things about Nintendo we will never learn




Yes they did think they were overdoing Mario,so they put toad in his place same old same old



Sir_JBizzle said:

@FragRed that's true, that was just an answer to the guy who was complaining about no announcement of GameCube games. There's still a bunch of games from the Wii's VC we've yet to see.

@Darknyht at this point, I wouldn't be surprised when Nintendo's next system(s) come around, they'll pool all of their first and second party resources and release a barrage titles at launch, seeing how Third parties treated the Wii U. Hopefully they'll spend some money in marketing on that go around. In the meantime I'll just continue to enjoy my Wii U like yourself



LazyShell said:

Nintendo can turn things around, it's just going to be a huge uphill battle. I do agree that they had communication issues. Was the system meant for the massive audience they gained for the Wii? Was the system meant more to draw in the heavily invested Sony/Microsoft crowd? Nintendo didn't come out with a clear message for the system.

I'm not one to bet against Nintendo though, even at their low points, they always find a way to turn things around. It's not going to be easy, and might even possibly take years to do, but Nintendo will bring themselves back up. They always seem to find a way.



GraveLordXD said:

@LEGENDnoONE I do agree with you on one thing and one thing only, the eshop releases have been a joke.
Nintendo had the best showing by far though so idk what you're talking about



Kaze_Memaryu said:

The launch issues still persist to a certain degree, but considering all the odds stacked against Nintendo, they fight like freakin' lions! And they're only one SPLATOOOOOOON (or Xenoblade X, if you prefer) away from taking over yet again!
Right now, Nintendo is out on front showing its true colors, and the E3 presence brought them loads of favorable attention, so they can finally tell people what they're doing right now!

But, as others outlined, the eShop lineup is still kinda weak, and Nintendo barely addresses this flaw.
Nonetheless, it's better to only release one VC game from each system at most per week, otherwise it would be too much to make any specific titles stand out anymore.



WanderingPB said:

This article serves as a good point and perspective from a developers but it's difficult to make a choice because we're not in their position as a business.

As for the troll in the comments…the moment i respond i feel like i lost…and yet if i dont educate the stupidity its can be frustrating…what a catch 22…



PokeAl said:

Nintendo forgot that their fans do grow up (now and again), so there needs to be a mix of realistic mature games and a smattering of classic nintendo goodness. As I've said before, if your target market is mommy's purse on birthdays and xmas, you are not going to sell many games. Bayonetta and Zelda may get my cash, but after that i'm jumping ship to one of the big players.



Lobster said:

Nintendo has its back up against a wall... and this is when it always delivers the most interesting stuff! Which it totally did this E3. I'm sure they have plenty more in reserve, too. You don't blow all your surprises at once.



LazyShell said:

@PokeAl I agree with you on the variety aspect. A system needs a good well rounded library of games for all kinds of discerning tastes.



bizcuthammer said:

Super Smash Bros WiiU
Legend of Zelda
Hyrule Warriors
Bayonetta 1+2
Kirby's Rainbow Curse
Pushmo World
Star Fox
Captain Toad's Treasure Tracker
Yoshi's Woolly World
Xenoblade Chronicles X
Mario Maker
Mario Party 10
Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric
Devil's Third

Add all that to the Wii U's existing library that includes Mario Kart 8, LEGO City Undercover, Rayman Legends, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, Super Mario 3D World, Wii Party U, Pikmin 3, Wii Sports Club, NSMBU, Sonic Racing Transformed, Nintendo Land, two Arkham Batman games, Sonic Lost World, and more. Add all that to the great eshop offerings from VC titles like Super Metroid and Advance Wars to great indie games like Scram Kitty, SteamWorld Dig, Shovel Knight, Stick it to the Man, and Trine 2.

Surely everyone can find something on that list worth owning a WiiU for, and if you can't, then you, my friend, must really hate fun and/or video games.



bizcuthammer said:

@PokeAl Not sure what you mean by that. The older i get, the less i find myself enjoying stuff like CoD, Halo, GTA, etc. I think i'm a very mature person, but hardly any of the games i enjoy playing have that M rating slapped on them. I loved playing that stuff as an adolescent. I played more hours of Halo, Mass Effect, Left 4 Dead, etc than i care to admit from ages 14-21. But now when i go back and play those games, they just don't stick the same way they used to. Also, the people i know that are in their late 20s like me that still do play those kinds of games are by far the most immature people i know in my age bracket. I don't know if there's any significant correlation there, but i dont find it surprising that those types of games seem to attract a very particular personality type. I prefer the games that Nintendo makes because anyone can play them. A five year old girl, her mom, her grandpa and her fourteen year old male cousin can all sit down for 4 player Mario Kart and have an absolute blast. But at the same time, Nintendo's games offer an insane amount of depth that most 'family friendly' games don't. Games like Pokemon, Mario Kart, and Zelda all have tons of depth and secrets that require mastering techniques and trial and error in ways that games like Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed, who look deep on surface but are actually very shallow, can only dream of. I don't know what you meant by saying Nintendo doesn't offer good gaming experiences for mature gamers, but i think it was a bit off base. If people refuse to play games like Mario Kart 8 because they don't 'look mature' then i would suggest they have some embarrassing insecurities relating to their own maturity.



Action51 said:

@LEGENDnoONE = memoryman3?

After Mario Kart 8's successful launch and such a great E3, the trolls went into temporary hiding. However, sure as even a hidden turd will start to stink, the trolls will return with their juvenile brand of negativity to continue their crusade against Nintendo.

yawn - This troll must be going for the 'so ignorant and absurd, you HAVE to give him attention' approach - just to correct the glaring misinformation and ignorance of the comments.



electrolite77 said:

@PokeAl Absolutely agree on the variety point. Personally at age 37 I find the likes of Call of Duty a bit juvenile but I like having that type of game as a change of pace. Get me the latest Mario, the latest Mario Kart, the latest GTA and the latest Fallout on the same machine and I'd be happy.

From the article itself, the point about courting developers more enthusiastically is a good one. Maybe culturally it doesn't fit for the Japanese but they could let NOA or even (gasp,shock,horror) NOE speak to Western developers.



unrandomsam said:

@electrolite77 Yeah but that is still only a small subsection of all the types of games there are. (Variety for me is one of the best games there is in all genres).



Kirk said:

I think everyone knows some of my suggestions for things that Nintendo specifically can do regarding "the way forward" by now but here's a wee list of some of them again for your viewing pleasure:

  • Another price drop of maybe $50
  • A proper unified account system that gives people the chance to buy one copy of a game and be able to play it across both Wii U and 3DS where possible. Certainly with all the VC titles and many of the eShop titles too.
  • A Wii U model with proper storage. Say something like a 250GB-500BB hard drive
  • Include the new improved battery in every GamePad from now on by default
  • Introduce a permanent price drop across the board on the VC titles to maybe half of the current price
  • Introduce some kind of subscription service similar to Sony and Mircrosoft that gives gamers access to a couple/few free games every month at a small monthly fee
  • Maybe some semi-transparent color alternatives along the lines of the awesome N64 range that did similarly
  • Better and continued advertising along the lines of the recent Mario Kart 8 ads (not necessarily the same but just not patronizing casual garbage with clueless family members waggling Wiimotes around or whatever)
  • Introduce an option for people to download a patch that enables CD/DVD/MP4/AVI and Blu-Ray (if possible) playback on the console
  • Announce it is at least developing new proper full games in most of these classic franchises that continue to go ignored on Wii U and ideally showing at least a logo and maybe a couple of screenshots (so it's not just words): Wave Race, 1080 snowboarding, Pilotwings, F-Zero, Earthbound, Punch-Out!!, Animal Crossing, Metroid, Fire Emblem, Wars, Pokemon...

Your pleasure!!!



Ryu_Niiyama said:

@bizcuthammer That list just reminded me of where my paycheck will be going for a while. I know everybody else is clamoring for more games but sometimes I wish Nintendo would put the brakes on...I can't afford all of this greatness!



Ryu_Niiyama said:

@PokeAl I'm all for variety sure, but I've never understood the mindset that once you are over 18 you are only engaged by M rated games. I'm 28 and unlike a lot of gamers actually waited until I was 18 before I started playing M rated games and I find many of them to be quite disappointing or annual updates (former AC player). I'm not saying I'm against M rated games (I have quite a few in my library) but many of the storylines seemed to be aimed at teenage boys. Nintendo and its numerous franchises (since it seems to be a thing to trot out Mario, Zelda and Pokemon like that is all they make) are about tight game-play and fun. The best part is they are universal enough that almost anyone can enjoy those experiences. I can not say the same for most other developers.



Nintendofan83 said:

@LEGENDnoONE How can you say you watched all of E3 and not even mention Splatoon? That's a brilliant new IP that is looking very fun and colourful lol. Project S.T.E.A.M. is also generating a nice buzz, too. Mario Golf just came out on 3DS and is doing well (with DLC sales, too.) and Child of Light has been very successful in the eShop. That's a solid game to attract potential developers. I think the last point is merely about a culture and business philosophy not mixing with our own. Nintendo is a Japanese based company that has always been mysterious. It shouldn't be a shocker that Western companies/developers need to initiate the contact with NIntendo. There is also a veil of confidence that they can be successful independently because of their main line up of games. The Wii U is getting a lot of depth for is library after this E3 presentation. Sure, a lot of the games are for 2015 but if you step back and look at 2014 as a whole, the Wii U actually got DKTF, MK8, HW, B2, and SSBU. That's an incredible line up of games. 2015 will carry the momentum of a successful 2014 for NIntendo. Personally, I'm a little concerned for the 3DS and 2DS systems. I didn't really see much that excited me outside of SSB3DS. Tomodachi Life isn't my thing. 2014 will still have enough quality games but what is coming up late in 2014 and 2015?




I didn't, I said the digital show ,sony and Microsoft was just as bad ,the wii u is going the same way as the dreamcast,great console no support ,the dreamcast sold more consoles than the wii u has in same period fact



eaglebob345 said:

@bizcuthammer Couldn't have said it better myself. If only more people would think like that. So many people think Nintendo is "kiddie" then try to act like AC and CoD are something to be excited about. Anyone who thinks maturity is measured by on an M on a game case shouldn't be allowed to buy M rated games.



ReigningSemtex said:

The first poster on this news is obviously a moron.

Anyway I read this and didn't think apple but was thinking more about Sega in the 90's

"It's not like Nintendo can simply whip out a new console and apologise for the Wii U. That would drive the community mad, and could put them where Apple was in the Nineties, with short hardware cycles and confused customers in droves."



Anguspuss said:

seriously nintendo learned long ago not to enter a pissing contest.
Just look at xbox one & ps4 loads of triple A software yeah sure.
Xbox one has turned 180 deg so many times that Kinect is spinning into a Mexican land fill site. MS PC gaming is dead well Steam & Apple plus Android might well kill them off.
What N should focus on is one cost then the its by a thousand miles the greener option & the whole family can play. They really need a mk2 with built in HDD or external hdd in shop with MK etc built in.



JaxonH said:


Number one most common logical fallicy- using SALES to determine a console's quality. Nobody gives a rat's *** whether or not the Wii U is selling. We actually buy our consoles to PLAY GAMES, not mount on the wall as trophy pieces with a plaque stating units sold. That rebuttal was completely irrelevant, and completely illogical.

The greatest console in the world could sell 3 units, doesn't have anything to do with how great it is or how fun to play it is, or how amazing the games for it are. And the crappiest console in the world could sell 200 million, doesn't mean it's good.

So please, leave the sales arguments in the locker room if you're going to come here to debate the Wii U's merits.



JaxonH said:

Haha, yeah that's him! You know it is lol... Dude doesn't care about fun games. He'll nit pick ANY reason to dismiss the Wii U. Doesn't matter how great a presentation they gave, doesn't matter how many new games they announced, doesn't matter how great the games are, he'll find some reason, ANY reason, to dismiss every single great game one by one.

Pushing the big, red ignore button now



Takerkaneanite6 said:

@LEGENDnoONE Wooly Yoshi is inspired by Kirby's Epic Yarn, a Wii game. Also, you're implying that Nintendo copied from Little Big Planet, what does that make the Little Big Planet karting game on PS3, a copy, in the attempts of capitislising on Mario Kart Wii's success, I rest my case....................



QuickSilver88 said:


You mentioned a lot of great titles and their are even more that you didn't. I have actually played a good deal of 3rd party on WiiU and enjoyed it. AC4, Rayman, NfSMW, ME3, NBA2K13, Splinter Cell, Injustice, W101, DeusEX.

I own multiple systems and a lot of the games mentioned had better grafx then ps360 and offTV. Some games were hurt by a lack of online communities but most problems with ubi/activision games were patched and play fine now. Investing a little time to line up players on MiiVerse and usually you can find other gamers.

It makes me sad that WiiU and major 3rd party is probably over but most of the games already published can be had very cheap at various online and reatil outlets. I really like offTV option for meaty games and also like second screen for mapping and management. Just imagine something like skyrim or dragon age using dual screen fully



PlywoodStick said:

The current state of Nintendo reminds me a lot of the N64 days, the 5th generation... major 3rd parties were abandoning Nintendo, most of the big sellers were either Nintendo or 2nd party properties, Nintendo was not embracing the "technological step forward" (discs, at the time), any marketing done was extensive, yet ineffective, and the N64 sold abysmally, considering the quality of the games it had...

Sound familiar?



Melkac said:

@rmeyer It will probably be another Titanfall or Watch_Dogs, to be honest. Overhyped like hell, ends up being disappointing.



Action51 said:

@Ichiban - I've always believed that this idea that you can't respond to a troll or they win doesn't work.

  • let the trolls go unchallenged and they spam your site, and they win!
  • respond to the trolls and the trolls get their attention and they win!

No, I believe you respond when you see misinformation and absurdly negative opinions passed off as fact. If responding provides me with some entertainment and I can expose the ridiculousness or lies, then what has it really cost anyone?

Trolls that just exist to antagonize or hurl vile insults and epitaphs get sorted out by the mods why not engage the ones who come to trash talk but remain at least polite enough to engage in some semblance of rational discussion.

Just my thoughts. I enjoy some lively back and forth.

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