News Article

Sakurai Aiming To Please "The Silent Majority" With New Smash Bros.

Posted by Damien McFerran

Series director no longer considers Smash to be just a fighting game

As we all know, there's a new Smash Bros. title coming to the Wii U and 3DS next year. It looks amazing, has Mega Man in it, and is driving its creator to the point of mental exhaustion.

Series director Masahiro Sakurai has been speaking to GameSpot about the development of the two titles, and has made some interesting comments on the age-old debate about which is the better entry — Super Smash Bros. Melee or Super Smash Bros. Brawl:

When I began working on the first Smash Bros., there was a great focus on [highly-technical] fighting games, and that's something we've seen branch off into sort of a niche direction. Now, those types of fighting games have a very high barrier to entry for new players, while Smash was always meant to appeal to lots of people from different gaming communities. When you look at fighting game forums, you'll see a preference for Melee, and yet, I think there are lots of people in the silent majority who don't post online who prefer Brawl. Ever since I started working on the Kirby series, I've always thought about the needs of the less vocal, beginning players of games.

Sakurai also states that he no longer considers Smash Bros. to be a simple fighting game; he feels that such a label gives the wrong impression of the game's content:

I think the idea of the fighting game genre can be somewhat limiting. People have defined in their own minds what constitutes a fighting game, and that can be such a specific set of characteristics that when other people are viewing a game from the outside and they learn it's a fighting game, they may predetermine it's not for them simply because of what they expect from it as a fighting game.

When planning the development of a new game, I always take a lot of care to discuss the concept and try to define it as best I can. For example, I like to think of Smash as a four-player battle royal action game. You'll notice that's a lot longer than saying it's a fighting game, because 'fighting game' is a completely different label. You can talk about a fighting game or an action game or a racing game, but as soon as you define your game specifically in those terms, you start limiting your creative range because you're thinking of the limitations of that genre. Perhaps the best thing we can do now is start with a concept rather than a genre. If we can do that, perhaps we can grow the whole idea a little bit.

Did we mention that we are rather excited about playing this game? We did?

[via uk.gamespot.com]

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User Comments (114)

Hunter-D

#2

Hunter-D said:

"I like to think of Smash as a four-player battle royal action game."

Hell yeah.

tsm7

#5

tsm7 said:

I think having the Wii Fit Trainer is kind of hilarious... guess I'm the minority.

valcoholic

#7

valcoholic said:

@Mahe totally agree. really fun character.
maybe the only thing that would be nice would be a Mii. Not all Miis as this would somehow destroy the whole Smash Bros-Feeling, but one Mii would be fun.
But after all I guess Nintendo isn't implementing Miis because they don't want users to see their own avatar getting kicked and punched.

deitypower

#8

deitypower said:

I agree. My cousin was really excited when she learned about the Wii Fit Trainer and I can't wait to have a four-player battle royal with my cousins. I'm hoping it would be a five player battle royal now and I want to see a 3D fighting mode even though it might just be a 2 player battle. Having a 3D fighting game that can really take advantage of Wii U's new power. I think it also became a free advertisement to the upcoming game Wii Fit U.

LavaTwilight

#9

LavaTwilight said:

I'm excited! I definitely can't wait and I'd love to see the new rosters! I really wished they didn't include Megaman but so many were calling for it I guess they would've been dumb not to. I hope for that they include Pacman too and keeping hold of Sonic won't go amiss.

Doma

#10

Doma said:

That's.... really lame.

How long does he think casual smash players will play the game before shelving it for good? To think they even care about the character roster is delusional.

I'd say the main reason why a majority would consider Brawl better is because they never played Melee.

LordGeovanni

#11

LordGeovanni said:

@Doma
I started playing SSB on the 64. Didn't like it much for some reason. Then played Melee. Loved it. Played Brawl and loved it even more. Why? Don't know. Must be the characters or the SSE. Or maybe both. Either way I would trade my Melee copy for another Brawl any day of the week... if I already didn't have a copy. Don't confuse "majority" as being the "loudest people around". Plenty of people refuse to play against me just because I say that I like Brawl more and I am sure I could dig up hundreds of similar cases in just 10 minutes of looking.

As for this, sounds like sound reasoning for me! Hope the game is out within a year and that they don't cut too many people out.

Jamouse

#12

Jamouse said:

@Doma
A low entry entry point doesn't necessarily mean he is targeting the game at "casuals".

I for one don't want to spend hours learning how to use each character before actually playing the game, yet I still clocked a couple of hundred hours in brawl and most certainly care about the character roster (and I'm sure i'm not alone).

Grustein

#13

Grustein said:

@Doma I'm not so sure, I have played both Melee and Brawl for hundreds of hours, and I like brawl better, sure it has slipping and sonic's super smash, but HEY, no more wavedashing, thats a pluss. But that is not the reason I like brawl more though, I'm not completly sure why, but it feels good, is fun, so YAY.
And of course people care about the roster.

valcoholic

#16

valcoholic said:

@BlackStar9000 haha indeed it would be, I'm more talking about Nintendo's family friendly policy which may not encourage users to punch each other. At least I can imagine this to be the main reason to not implement it, as they would have done that with SB on the Wii already.
But sure, I personally would like that too :)

Doma

#17

Doma said:

@LordGeovanni I wouldn't disregard Brawl for being a great game in itself (it was obviously better than 64). But I think Melee was a much better overall package as far as mechanics go. Another thing i liked were its more challenging events. I beat the lot of Brawl's ones with ease and hardly any retries.

@Jamouse It didn't take masses of time to learn the ropes in Melee though. It may have took more to master due to more robust and fast-paced mechanics.

@Grustein The kind of people i'm taking about wouldn't care about the roster beyond seeing the same characters (in which they use repeatedly) return.

BulbasaurusRex

#18

BulbasaurusRex said:

@Doma Again, he's not aiming the title at casual players. He's aiming it at action game fans who don't go overboard with advanced mechanics. He's already said that the mechanics will be somewhere in between Melee and Brawl, which is good enough for me, as my only complaints with Brawl are the tripping and the low gravity.

DestinyMan

#20

DestinyMan said:

Nice to see Sakurai likes to expand ideas rather than just simply calling it what it already is. Smash Bros. really is a four-player battle royale action game, and you can get a lot more creative ideas out of that then simply calling it a "fighting game." It explains why the Super Smash Bros. series is so unique. It is a fighting game in the sense, but it also feels so much more, especially when considering the huge amount of content in Brawl.

Kiteleon

#21

Kiteleon said:

@ Doma
I have to completely agree with you; Brawl was a nice game (hell, I bought my Wii for it!) but when I had it hands down, I quite playing the game when I had all characters unlocked. I just didn't feel the urge to complete and finish every little challenge in Brawl. In Melee however, I would 'fox' around every little corner of the game, making sure I had every trophy out there. And Brawl's little adventure mode never made much sense to me: was I playing Super Smash, or another (spin-off) entry of Mario? Last but not least, I really hated Brawl's minigame for trophies. The idea was great, but it resulted in playing the shooting the same enemies and using the same mechanics all the time.
As a side-note, I would rather have the new Super Smash focus on a balanced and diverse character roster, than simply having as many characters as possible. I prefer quality over quantity, since having more characters means it's more difficult to balance physics, speed, movement and power. Let's hope it'll work out anyway!

ueI

#22

ueI said:

I don't know any of the technical differences between Brawl and Melee, but they feel very different and I slightly prefer the feel of melee. This difference is insignificant to me and I ultimately think Brawl is better.

Frapp

#23

Frapp said:

All I ask for is Chibi Robo as a playable character and fast loading.

Varia01

#24

Varia01 said:

"Silent Players".... Not a bad idea. Players who just wait, relax, and see is a good focus. Well done, Sakurai.

So I guess Smash Bros is gonna be like a mixed genre from the following:
Action
Fighting
Platformer
(Possible) Racing
(Possible) Strategy

HYPE!!! :O

timp29

#25

timp29 said:

Guessing what the silent majority wants strikes me as fraught with peril.

sinalefa

#28

sinalefa said:

Labels limit you. Nice to see that sakurai knows that.
And i love that he put wii fit trainer. Part of the fun is having a sense of humor and to have unexpected things

WhiteTrashGuy

#29

WhiteTrashGuy said:

Melee's mechanics were more balanced, but the excitement surrounding Brawl was palatable. Seeing Snake and Sonic revealed at E3 was amazing. And the finish product was obviously made with great care that I can't help but love it. I for one liked the single player campaign and hope they beef it up more. SSB should be the fighting game for everyone. If competitors like Melee's longevity in regards to fighting mechanics, then by all means keep playing it. Just don't crap on Brawl as it is still an exceptionally crafted piece of software.

rjejr

#31

rjejr said:

I skipped the N64 and Smash Bros.

Bought a Gamecube and Melee. Played it for an hour, bored to tears, decided to try and bring it back in the morning. Gave it another shot, messed around in the settings, realized the game was initially set up to be the most dull and boring thing possible - think it was simple 2 minute rounds best of 3 - and realized customization like no other console game I had played.

Bought a Wii at release. Showed up at midnight launch for Brawl. Played Subspace Emissary several times, alone and with my kids. My kids love messing around w/ settings now - coins, hit points, big heads - I don't know what they're doing but it seems like no 2 fights are ever the same. They even made a lot of their own levels w/ that extremely limited level editor. We even play 4 player w/ my wife. She never wins but she laughs at the mayhem.

Brawl isn't about fighting, it's about kids hanging out together, doing whatever they want, and having fun.

Funny_Moblin

#34

Funny_Moblin said:

Guys, I'm a bit worried...

I like the speed and gravity and Melee much more, and Sakurai said that he will try to balance Smash Bros U. between Melee and Brawl but...

He seems to be much more on the Brawl side...

This is worry-some. In fact, last night I had a dream, or nightmare if I may call it, that I got to play a demo of the new Smash Bros. game, and it was a bit more floaty than Brawl!!! D: SAKURAI, PLEASE MAKE IT MUCH MORE LIKE MELEE!!
YOU ALREADY HAVE SO MANY FANS IN THE SERIES, HOW MANY MORE NEW PEOPLE DO YOU POSSIBLY WANT? AND IF NEW PEOPLE DO PLAY THE GAME, THEY PRACTICE AND BECOME SKILLFUL. BRAWL IS A NO-BRAIN. MELEE IS STRATEGIC. GET IT RIGHT>

shinpichu

#35

shinpichu said:

It's still a fighting game. It may not be designed to appeal to the competitive scene, but it's still a fighting game.

Sakurai's comments here have me a bit worried. He said earlier that he was looking more for a balance between Melee and Brawl, but it looks here to me like he might have gone back on that.

hydeks

#37

hydeks said:

I always considered Smash Bros to be a party fighting game, but battle royal is a good term for it.

bassoongoon

#40

bassoongoon said:

I myself liked Brawl better than Melee (not to say that I did not like Melee). I felt the response and handling of all the characters felt much better.

Trippinator

#41

Trippinator said:

@Doma I consider myself a casual Smash player but I played Brawl for ages. And, yes, I did play Melee, but I preferred Brawl.

Why would people like Brawl more? More characters, cool story mode, so many collectibles. And the final smashes cool. Yes, balance and tripping were not good, but as a person who just plays with friends casually, it never bothered me.

benjamines

#43

benjamines said:

Sakurai is the man.

That being said, can we please get a little more F-Zero love in this one? Captain Falcon has been the sole F-Zero character in every entry thus far.

Einherjar

#44

Einherjar said:

Great article. And indeed, when someone says "fighting game" i always think of something like Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Tekken and so on.
Also, what people need to get out of their head is the connection between "gameplay depth" "learning curve" and "genre".
I had countless of discussions about smash beeing a "kiddy game" because everyone can jump in and play and no 15 years of learning is needed to be slightly competetive. Yes, you can play smash almost instantly and enjoy it, but you dont hold a candle against a seasoned player. In Street Fighter for example, you cant even enjoy the game on a decent difficulty level without extensive training sessions, which turn many people away from it.
The entire design of smash is excellent. Its easy to learn and has enough depth to master, but you can enjoy the whole experiende even without beeing a veteran at it. Everyone gets something out of it, and thats what makes it great. You can get a bunch of friends over and enjoy it instantly, without them playing it regularly themselfes and they still cann pull of some nice fights :)

Pokefanmum82

#45

Pokefanmum82 said:

This is going to be an awesome game. I don't see the big deal about him not wanting to confine Smash Bros to a fighting game mindset. That's a good thing. It has the potential to make it a great game.

DarkKirby

#46

DarkKirby said:

Look Sakurai, you're not going to have casuals and serious players playing together and have the games even. You know who this "silent majority" is? The people who drop the game after 1 month. Or they don't exist. Brawl wasn't good. Just have a ladder so people can play others at similar skill levels. Don't force Smash to be a casual only game again. And for the love of glob, don't accuse players of playing Brawl "wrong", you made the game slow and defense heavy with less useful attack options, and people will play the game defensively rather then offensively. It's the fault of development, to design the game poorly than accuse players of playing the game "wrong" because they are optimizing their chances of winning is idiotic.

bezerker99

#48

bezerker99 said:

People have explained, in detail, the differences b/t Brawl and Melee and.... I still can't differentiate between the two. To me, the Smash Bros franchise is like Madden,....same game every time, just different roster. D:

Doma

#49

Doma said:

@Trippinator If you only like to play with friends casually, it's not like you're strapped for choice with the games Nintendo makes. Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Olympics, Mario Tennis, Mario whatever etc.... would fit right up your alley.

Why begrudge a single series to be made with more competitive players in mind, for once? That's what really sucks about the Situation with Nintendo nowadays. Every game must be casual.

BATRA

#50

BATRA said:

i look at super smash bros wii u and looks like super smash bros n64 with melee speed and brawl looks and that's not bad looks very good to me

Doma

#51

Doma said:

@bezerker99 I'm guessing you've never really bothered to play these games in reality. Equal to Madden?.. wat, so smash gets released every year, now? That's pretty insulting. The games i mentioned above are more in line to those stale changes.

ultraraichu

#54

ultraraichu said:

Another 10 point for Sakurai. the internet is a confusing place. Not every gamer who own a system will create an online social account to talk about games. Plus some gamers have accounts on multiple social sites/forums so 10 opinions can be all from the same person.

I always love Brawl way more then Melee but I don't voice it as much or aggressively as the other. Nice to know the quiet ones are being heard.

Btw I always thought of it as a action game too but say fighting to make it simple.

Trippinator

#55

Trippinator said:

@Doma I am not begrudging a single series, all I am saying was that the silent minority exists, they aren't totally casual, and why. They should keep it balanced AND have a lot of characters and cool collectibles, so it appeals to both crowds. And keep the smash balls, cuz you can always take those out.

BlatantlyHeroic

#56

BlatantlyHeroic said:

@Doma You need to accept the opinions of others and just deal with them. Also... it seems that you're in the minority here... pretty ironic.

Znerd

#57

Znerd said:

I like Brawl More but in i think melee had better stages and items but it just felt broken to me compared to brawl

MrZanctom

#58

MrZanctom said:

Sakurai, you are a genius. Not just because you created the greatest fighting series ever, but because of what you said about not limiting a game to its genre.

unrandomsam

#59

unrandomsam said:

I find games that are really hard in the beginning are faster to learn.

The best games are the ones that you can only progress by getting better at the game.

I don't mind being able handicap a player prior to playing multiplayer.

(But there again I like Kirby's Adventure wii because even though it is really really easy it is never boring).

Don't see why they cannot release two games reusing most of the work.

(It used to work for SNK/Capcom).

Trying to be a jack of all trades always leads to being a master of none.

Plutonian

#61

Plutonian said:

@Doma
I have to say that after viewing your profile and reading through your previous comments, you're probably the most obnoxious poster on this site. You seem to do nothing but hate and talk trash. Also, Brawl was awesome.

True_Hero

#62

True_Hero said:

I don't see the problem here. It sounds like Sakurai is making this game the best of both worlds. It sounds like both parties will get what they're looking for.

Doma

#63

Doma said:

@Plutonian You checked my profile? wow you’re creepy.

Give me a break dude... i'm pretty much civil with any criticism and no where near reach the point of most obnoxious. Where is this trash talk?

Pikminboy

#64

Pikminboy said:

I liked Melee alot(probably a bit more because it's part of my childhood memories) , and brawl too, since he said it will be between those two play styles, I'm not worrying , it's his game too he does whatever he wants, but by looking at the videos I can tell by : the visuals,gameplay, etc that it will be super fun; :P

Zombie_Barioth

#65

Zombie_Barioth said:

Sounds good to me, there were a lot of things I liked more about melee than brawl and vice versa.

Definitely have to agree with him on the way games should be developed, thats how we get games like Monster Hunter or Dark Cloud.

unrandomsam

#66

unrandomsam said:

@The_Joker
The silent majority at least proportionally so would be me and Doma. I would say the majority are already represented here and just blindly agree with anything Nintendo does. Still don't see why they cannot just release 2 games with slightly tweaked mechanics. (Or unlock a mode after you finish the single player that makes it just play with no luck so you can progress after that by getting better at the game).

Even if I am the benefactor of it I would rather always lose than win by artificially added luck.

(I quite like KOF 98 and SF2 turbo hyper fighting).

Wouldn't even be bothered if they just used unknown characters. F Zero is much better as a series than Mario Kart.

SuperiorTech

#67

SuperiorTech said:

It seems like there are more casual Smash players than competitive considering how many people prefer Brawl over Melee..

Caryslan

#68

Caryslan said:

As a fan of fighting games, I gotta kinda agree with what Sakurai is talking about. Too many times, fighting games just toss in gameplay elements for the sake of "depth" or to cater to the hardcore. I love the Marvel Vs Capcom games, but MVC3 went overboard with the new gameplay mechanics and too many of them felt like gimmicks.

The problem with this approach is that it often creates a barrier that holds back less-skilled players.

Virtua Fighter is my favorite fighting game series for one simple reason. It's easy to learn how to play the basic game, but it still is the deepest fighting game on the market. I've seen newer players do well against me(I've played VF since the Saturn) mainly because it's less about pulling off that one flashy move or hyper combo and more about reading your opponent.

Sega has never felt the need to toss in gimmicks like X-factor, X-Ray Attacks, Hyper Combos, or other still like that into Virtua Fighter. And yet, Virtua Fighter remains the most balanced and deepest fighter on the market. And ti achieves that balance not thourght gimmicks, but balancing out the characters themselves.

That's where Smash Brothers manages to work so well. Like Virtua Fighter, it has a simple button setup and it's easy to learn the basics. That's why I'm opposed to just tossing in random game play elements for the sake of "depth" or to appeal to the hardcore gamer.

That's why a mix of Melee and Brawl is the best direction for the series. Give us what worked but take the focus away from mastering a bunch of gameplay mechanics and put it more on mastering the characters themselves.

That's my problem with alot of modern fighting games. Its no longer about picking a character and getting good with them. Now, you have the extra layers of idiotic systems that are tossed in to appeal to the "hardcore"

Sega is the only one that got it right, and they managed to do that without any of the gimmicks.

Rather then worrying about wavedashes and other stuff like that, I want to see gameplay balance between characters take top priority. Smash Bros works best when things are kept simple, and the focus is on mastering the characters.

Let me put this way, I would love to see Smash Bros take a Virtua Fighter approach to gameplay mechanics. Does it really add something to the game, or is it a gimmick?

I'm not opposed to mechanics like L-Canceling, Wavedashing, and other stuff like that coming back in SSB4. But there can't be a barrier there either. Its one thing to have depth and skill levels in a game, but you can't cut out an entire audience who might be casual who can't understand what the advanced stuff means. And above all else, the focus should be on characters and their balance. And that balance needs to be achieved without gimmicks or cheap gameplay mechanics.

umegames

#69

umegames said:

@thecran3
yes. When smash is done, i wonder what his next game will be. If only every developer had a guy like him and hiedo kojima

unrandomsam

#70

unrandomsam said:

I think Arcade (As in you could run it as a coin op in Japan and it work) style is the best easy to play pretty hard to do remotely well at balanced. (Same as sports games).

KiroX777

#71

KiroX777 said:

@Trippinator but fans dont mean brawl was inferior in every way when they say it sucks. Its just the transition from melee to brawl was horrible for those who got to love the competitive aspect that melee offered. Just imagine all the added brawl upgrades of graphics, stages, characters, SSE, ect. ect. WITH THE COMBOS AND COMPETITIVE ASPECTS OF THE SERIES INTACT! WHO COULD HATE THAT GAME? no one! melee would have been just old memories, instead of a still relevant smash game like it is now making it to EVO over casual brawl all typa stuff.. and the competitive aspects is such a loved part among the die hard fans (yes the "loudest" ones) the ones i think should matter most imho.

It's like trying to make the perfect new Basket Ball game, to appeal to ALL fans of the game, and you ignore the "loudest voices" saying they want alley-oops, and various other competitive tricks added in a realistic way. and you pay more attention to the casual "silent majority" and add random tripping and remake the rules to best suit newbies who prolly dont know the rules of the game very well and dont know the technical aspects of competitive basketball where things get a lil more serious. It can be done right, yes, but what are the chances of that kind of game succeeding when the ones who play it more cant stand it.

Why cant the next smash game offer a choice between play styles, i mean that could be interesting. choose 1 melee airdodge and wavedashing vs unlimited brawl airdoges and no wavedashing. i've personally always wanted them 2 play styles to vs each other on the same screen. And the same way ssf4;3d edition lets you choose between the casual easy 'lite' touch controls or the 'pro' balanced touch controls and even lets you chose which control scheme you want to allow to vs you online. The next smash bros should do something similar.

So i say, If people love to show how much their training paid off with 1v1 matches and items off, let them! but dont limit the fans to ONLY play casually, with things like random tripping and removing combos as well as all the competitive aspects the series always had! its just plain wrong. the same way melee and n64 doesnt LIMIT a player to ONLY playing competitively is the same way it should be for ALL Smash Bros Installments!!

Funny_Moblin

#72

Funny_Moblin said:

@Caryslan I consider Super Smash Bros. Melee a hardcore fighting game, which I like. Not because of the technical stuff such as wave dashing, but because of the speed of characters ad the strong gravity compared to Brawl. I liked it better because you could do combos, and just think of any combination that suits you well, get creative and make your own. That's the beauty of Melee. Brawl has turned Smash Bros. into a no-brainer.

First of all, we have to hope Sakurai keeps his promise of making it a balance between Melee and Brawl. Secondly, if he does balance it, I hope he balances the game in terms of gravity and speed, enough for people to be able to do combos.

Without combos, and the speed and gravity of Brawl, it feels hollow.

Neferupitou

#74

Neferupitou said:

Played melee for long 4 years, and yes, it,s better than Brawl, but Brawl is NOTHING bad too.

Caryslan

#75

Caryslan said:

@Funny_Moblin Its a hard balance since making the game too oriented in the direction of combos results in larger characters and characters that lack combos being nothing more then walking punching bags.

This is why I favor a balance of both Melee and Brawl's gameplay mechanics. I think a game that has the faster gameplay and combos of Melee with the defensive gameplay of Brawl would make both fans happy. Plus, it would be the first step to creating a balance with the roster.

But more than anything, I want to see the heavyweights be more than punching bags. I liked the direction where Project M took Bowser, since it got much harder to just spam ranged attacks or overwelm him with sheer speed and combos. I liked the idea of Bowser having armor that keep him from flinching from weak attacks. Tie it to his percentage gauge.

For Ganondorf, change his attacks to where they have better priority over attacks. Have Wizard's Kick go through Falco's blaster, and give Ganondorf super armor all the way through Flame Choke. In other words give him better approach options.

I'm really hoping SSB4 does the heavyweights some justice. I'm tired of them being nothing more than punching bags or target practice.

KiroX777

#76

KiroX777 said:

@Caryslan i agree with the no gimicks thing, but i doubt that will be an issue. if anything the only "gimmick" imo was on the casual side, the smash ball. an item to try to encourage no item pros to use items or something.

But i do understand the concern with noobs not being able to play cause the pros occupy the court atm. but that should be motivation to get better! not fold your arms and frown and say its not fair! it does get a bit boring too when your too good and your friends dont have much of a chance. they be like "... well.. time to play another game?" Nooo!! lol just learn how to win! :P as long as competitive players have somewhere to all meet up online in the next smash bros and casuals have one too, there should be no problem!

but for offline, if you cant beat me offline, maybe we can join forces and play adventure mode, ect or just put on items on. its not as complicated as people and sakurai is making it seem. competitive players are here to stay! dont ignore them, and everything will be fine. casuals will be fine playing the game casually until they shelve it after they beat it lol while competitive players will keep the meta game going, blowing your mind pushing the game to its limits, creating combo videos, and making money coming out on top in tourneys... jus sayin'.

Ernest_The_Crab

#77

Ernest_The_Crab said:

@KiroX777 Except it was pointed out a long time ago that wave dashing and chain grabbing were exploits. They were not meant to be in the game and were removed as a result. They will most likely not return either.

He's not ignoring the hyper competitive group, he's pointing out that they're not the most important market especially for a game that's supposed to be more fan service-oriented and chaotic.

R_Champ

#78

R_Champ said:

Melee elitists can play Melee; on final destination, with no items, probably only using Marth, and constantly wave-dashing. I'll be playing the new Smash Bros. when it comes out. Heck I liked Brawl more than melee, why? Because like Sakurai said: it's NOT a fighting game. It's more, and had more (well, and tripping, sadly). And I'm glad Sakurai isn't just listening to the whiny elitists. I mean, how many people REALLY want characters like Geno, Goku, and Waluigi? I don't. I think Wii Fit trainer was a hilarious and intelligent addition, not one to just appease the LOUDEST.

KLZ

#79

KLZ said:

People have to stop wanting Nintendo to be something it is not.

SuperMinusWorld

#80

SuperMinusWorld said:

"You can talk about a fighting game or an action game or a racing game, but as soon as you define your game specifically in those terms, you start limiting your creative range because you're thinking of the limitations of that genre. Perhaps the best thing we can do now is start with a concept rather than a genre. If we can do that, perhaps we can grow the whole idea a little bit."

Eye-opening.

Ralizah

#81

Ralizah said:

What an expansive-minded individual Sakurai is! We need more people like him in the video game world.

KiroX777

#82

KiroX777 said:

@Ernest_The_Crab well no.. you got that wrong. sakurai even admitted that he knew wavedashing was in melee, "Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period." -Sakurai (and the part about chain grabbing... major FACEPALM! smh its a part of the game! you cant stop a person clever enough to realize you can do these things (-__-') and it was made worse in brawl!! ice climbers, falco, dedede, marth grab release chains on ness.. worse part is you cant escape it! atleast in melee you can make it hard for him to chain throw you by way of DI.)

not only that but since n64 what casual players might not realize is Smash Bros ALWAYS had secret advanced techniques to keep players getting better. What is today known as L-Canceling in melee was in smash bros since DAY 1! it was official called "smooth landing" before! which brings me to my point... did casual players care? that players could play more advanced if they so choose? to the point where today people like Isiah have the ability to pull off zero to death combos in smash bros 64.. actual legit combos where you have to put the control down cause their aint no escape cause he's too good, combos!

At least melee balanced the competitive aspects keeping smooth landing as well as the obvious airdodging sliding trick we call today "wavedashing". And again.. did casual players care when the game first came out?? or did they just have fun playing casually with items... it wasnt until the game was pushed to its limits that players started getting butt hurt, cause they themselves cant play well enough to compete. Its just like basket ball in a school gym. sometimes people want serious games to test skill, while others just want to have fun. neither is wrong! but seem to both hate each other at times for not playing like how they themselves do.

Williaint

#84

Williaint said:

I always thought Brawl was better... It's like Melee x 1.5!
@KiroX777
I've never taken Super Smash Bros. Seriously... It was all about fun.

KiroX777

#85

KiroX777 said:

and not to turn this into a political youtube comment section lol but I'm glad Sakurai knows more than just being a troll sometimes :P

Labels in general limit things, not just in a gaming genre, but in virtually everything. Calling yourself, black, white, hispanic, indian, chinese, republican, democrat, AMERICAN, ect... has some of societies infinite possibilities, problems and solutions contained and limited by these labels. think about it.

i for one know i'm consciousness, contains all this IS in that label lol. a spirit WITH a human body. NOT a human meat suit WITH a spirit. "I'm only human" is a lie!

Ernest_The_Crab

#86

Ernest_The_Crab said:

@KiroX777 You do realize that Melee turned off a lot of people right? I've stayed with Smash Bros since the first version however, after the release of Melee a lot of the player base that played the series for fun left during that release. It wasn't until Brawl that people came back to the series again in droves.

Sure things like tripping are stupid however, the emphasize on messing around in Brawl made people come back to the game instead of Melee's overly focused approach on competition. You cannot perfectly balance these two things fun (for the majority) and competition since they are direct opposites in a game like Smash Bros. (since fun is restricted by balance and complexity). There really isn't an easy way of approaching this, unless we want to go back to the days of single button mode (which isn't going to work out anyways since someone else is going to find an exploit somewhere, again).

Jon-TheVillager

#87

Jon-TheVillager said:

@KiroX777 EXACTLY. The depth was there in melee in case ppl like myself wanted to explore it. Casual players can ignore it if they like. Brawl said eff that, everyone has to play casual and let's remove depth

KiroX777

#88

KiroX777 said:

@Williaint Basketball should be played for fun aswell ;) but we have the NBA for those willing to play by a set of balanced rules to have serious competitions, sure its still fun, but serious at the same time. once again a person can play basket ball how he wishes. i can make it interesting making players hoola-hoop while playing all typa stuff. and thats just fine! its casual play. but nothing wrong either about competitive play, i say if the game gets competitive, dont feel bad, GET THAT WIN!!!!

i love brawl just cause it was new and on the wii, and it was so hype with snake and sonic, which ended up pulling in ALL the "sony drones" new players in my school for that snake alone! For making smash bros so popular to the point where i can actually find girl players, even the good looking ones! play. For that i love brawl.

But when it came to where the game mattered most for us pro smash vets, it fell short. random tripping was the fiery passionate rage that turned brawl into the 3d mugen we see today. and sakurai is to blame ( or thank donno which :P project m ftw and Khaos ftw too, (coming soon) ;) )

Funny_Moblin

#89

Funny_Moblin said:

@Caryslan I agree that there should be a perfect balance between Mele and Brawl. I want it to be somewhat competitive but fun when I'm chilling with friends too.

Though I don't know much about Project M, big characters are generally balanced too, in my opinion. Yes, they may be big and slow, but hitting hard has always made up for it.

KiroX777

#90

KiroX777 said:

the next smash bros confirms random tripping gone, and ive noticed while analyzing gameplay trailers that hitstun seems to be back! therefore meaning combos are back. if thats the case, then im happy either way at this point :) (poor online features like missing online leaderboards and no choice of having ranked or custom "with anyone" 'quick matches' wifi matches might change that though...)
So as long as i can combo your burro i'm happy! muahaha! melee eliteists will rise again! >=D lol

Zombie_Barioth

#91

Zombie_Barioth said:

@KiroX777
As someone already pointed out "silent majority" does not mean casual. Sakurai is refering to the people who would rather just play the game than sit around complaining about it.

Otherwise I agree with you, theres no reason not to have more advanced features for seasoned players as long as it doesn't prevent less experienced players from enjoying the game. Its not easy but there needs to be a balance that encourages players to improve without it being too frustrating.

Also, the phrase "I'm only human" only means we're not perfect, and labels only limit you if they're the only way you define something.

KiroX777

#92

KiroX777 said:

@Zombie_Barioth but it thought it was easy... its called items! lol

i know im too good for my friends to beat sometimes, but like with melee, it was easily solved when we would start the game with items on accidentally, and said, screw it lets just play with it.. and its a lot of fun! really funny stuff goes on. and sure i can wavedash and combo but whats that going to do against a super star opponent lol or when my opponent somehow manages to magically call out both a ho-oh and lugia from the only 2 pokeballs on the stage.. NOTHING! lol

and i know what "im only human" means lol i was just trying to open some more minds. same way i say yolo is a fxckin joke! false terms need to be called out.

Williaint

#93

Williaint said:

@Kiro777
The first comment was directed at this article.
Ahhh, I understand now. My sister plays; She's not the best gamer, but likes Mario Kart and Banjo Kazooie... Sims... you know, that casual crowd. People who just play because it's "Haha look at Luigi fighting a Sonic and a Snake!"...
I get your plight now.

SockoMario

#94

SockoMario said:

I love Melee. But, I kinda don't like it due to how overrated it is. All I here is "Brawl sukz!!!11 itz not fast paced!!! WAAAAAAAAAA". I like Brawl a million times more than Melee! And no, I'm NOT a causal gamer! So don't think I'm a "casual gamer" all because I like Brawl more than Melee.
If you ask me; Melee was kinda boring. Even with friends. Brawl on the other hand, had WAY MORE content than Melee had. And Brawl was WAY MORE funner than Melee.

xiloh_battousai

#95

xiloh_battousai said:

I'll be honest, the smash brothers series has been the most important game series to me personally because it houses the very essence of what Nintendo is all about, great characters with epic stories, atmospheres and a collection of Nintendo's history all housed in an amazing amalgamation of meticulous depth. That moment when you realize exactly how deep the character mechanics are, categorizes it into a genre all it's own! Each entry keeps evolving more and more, the difference between 64 and Melee was astounding, the anticipation for brawl was remarkable, and seeing this new version of Smash Bros. coming to both Wii U and 3DS bringing a sense of balance between Melee and Brawl, keeps the wait that much more intimidating! I've mastered them all and appreciate every inch of the development that has been put into them...Sakurai-san, I have full faith in you that your decisions and specific ideas of evolving the franchise that much more will make this entry the ultimate Smash Brothers experience!
PS: please don't forget about the original Japanese smash bros. box artwork, it is beloved!

Retr_acro

#97

Retr_acro said:

What would be nicer could be an options to change game mechanics such as Competitive Mode and Regular(casual) Mode.

Toggling to whichever can either keep limit game mechanics (casual) or disable game mechanic limits (competitive). That way if you want to play with friends just for laughs, you can force the game to be as casual as possible, and then you can toggle back to Competitive mode when you want to play seriously.

Doing this, Mr. Sakurai, will please so much more groups of people. You can keep that casual, fun, chaotic gameplay while making it possible to have decent competitive tourneys whenever you want.

Zombie_Barioth

#98

Zombie_Barioth said:

@KiroX777
Items aren't a substitute for actual balance. They don't make an over powered character or exploit less over powered or encourage less experienced players to learn the ropes. Most items aren't that hard to avoid and are as much an advatage for you as the other players, and any items you deem over powered can be turned off anyway.

Allowing for advanced play while keeping things accessible for less experienced players isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, otherwise nobody would even be having this discussion. Allowing as much customization as possible would be a good start however.

Jeremyx7

#100

Jeremyx7 said:

Brawl is and always was better over melee in every way minus the stupid tripping.

OptimusG

#102

OptimusG said:

Was Brawl a good game? Yes. Was it great? No.

Why try pleasing the "silent majority"? If they cared then they would speak up and let their voices be heard.

Melee will always be the better game. You can try to make as many points as you want but Melee was. It added a competitive AND non competitive aspect, it was deeper, more technical, faster, combo based, etc. Most of you are saying you like Brawl because of the characters, items and "content" when the only new content was subspace emissary, items, characters and a stage builder which was very bare bones. Many things Melee had done as well compared to its predocessor. Brawl threw away the competitive aspect in favour of the casuals. They let go a huge part of the install base. Brawl was a lot worse. Being stuck in a chaingrab WORSE than Melee with no escape, no gravity, having an OP asf character that demolished the whole roster stopping the meta game from ever improving and much more. On the surface the game was good but going deeper in it sucked.

Also for those of you who didn't know, the competitive scene for Melee & Brawl is very big. A lot of you seem to think its tiny and non existent when that's not the case.

I hate how I spend hours and days trying to perfect a character and learn as much as I can about them like their frame data, gameplay, etc and try to become better as a player in general just for it to go all to waste to casuals who don't care about any of that stuff and won't even bother or think about trying to get better and just want to button mash. People who play because its "omfg peach is fighting" or like stated above "haha a luigi fighting a sonic and snake". Like Injustice Gods Among Us. Learning combos, what's safe what's not, my wakeup options, my character only to face people who want to spam one move and a certain projectile to win instead of trying to learn at least one combo.

I really want this game to be good. But it can't take after Brawl. It can borrow the good things that came from Brawl like the smash ball but when it comes to technical things it just can't. Hope you guys understand where I'm coming from and stuff :s lol

DarkNinja9

#103

DarkNinja9 said:

i agree with some points made already but thinking too much about the casuals would have bad effects on those who liked melee but putting the wii fit trainer was a mixed emotions for me seems stupid in a way but at the other its kinda shows some humor maybe that is a character they added instead of the miis?

i like how he explains the game that way cuz "fighting game" does sound boring :P

Lasermaster123

#104

Lasermaster123 said:

I just hope the game does not become too much of a casual game looking at how he speaks. It is the casual gamers who are the silent majority, people who don't make an account to comment on forums or articles or the ones who don't pay too much attention to game announcements.

On a character roster note, I just hope that more characters like Wii Fit trainer are not included. One wacky character is funny and amusing, but too many will spoil it all. Also I hope he does not decide that the silent majority wants Matthew to represent Golden Sun instead of the more popular and sensible choice Isaac.

Benjelo

#105

Benjelo said:

@OptimusG
Well what game you like best whether it is melee or brawl is completely up to you. I did enjoy brawl much more but that is just my opinion. The reason we, the "silent majority", isn't speaking out is probably because we don't honestly care about your opinion. Please do not take offense in that but honestly you can have your favorite game, we can have our favorite game and we don't need to argue.
About the button mashing... I guess I can not blame you for being mad about that. But if you are saying that you are trying to master characters then this should not be a problem... After mastering a problem you can evade basicly every move. If the majority are casual players then they get the privileges because... well they are the majority. These games are for having fun... they are not really one of those games for intense players. If you are upset about it then just don't play.

Funny_Moblin

#106

Funny_Moblin said:

@OptimusG I love Melee much more too, as well as being the game I grew up with :)

It may be hard to balance the game with gravity and speed to please both casuals and the hardcore, but as somebody stated above, Sakurai can simply add options where you can choose something like "casual" or "hardcore".

Donald_M

#107

Donald_M said:

The Wii Fit Trainer is a hilarious character and I think it's awesome that she's in the game, both because she's so out of left field and because it adds another cool female character to the list. I do hope the Animal Crossing Villager has a female option as an alternate costume.

OptimusG

#109

OptimusG said:

@Benjelo It's not about who prefers what game, that's totally opinion (even though facts prove that Melee was better) but it comes down to why are we trying to please the "silent majority". The majority that's not speaking and probably don't care for most mechanics added into the game.

It doesn't work that way. There have been many instances where people master a problem but still lose. It's not something you can control. It's not always going to be "ok well everytime this happens i'll never get hit". It happens to the pros as well. It's all luck based.

You obviously are a casual so you'd think that way but that's not how you balance a game. In the long run you would cater most of the game to the non-casual since it's going to be them who will be keeping the game alive. Not the casuals who will eventually put it down and maybe return to it 2 months later or on an odd day. Look at SSF4. That game still has huge competitions, still popular and is alive and kicking. Why is it doing so well? Because of the "loud" ones. Because of the competitive players of the game, which is basically a good chunk of the install base.

"These games are for having fun... they are not really one of those games for intense players". & how did you come up with this conclusion because Melee would like to have a word with you. If it wasn't meant for "intense players" (whatever that means) then many of the mechanics added into Brawl & Melee wouldn't be present. Sakurai is trying to cater to both but it's pretty obvious that people want him to cater more towards the competitive side (which he should be doing IMO).

If I'm upset then don't play my buttcheecks. Maybe the "silent majority" should not play if they don't want competitiveness.

Zombie_Barioth

#110

Zombie_Barioth said:

@OptimusG
Now why exactly should the majority be ignored in favor of of the minority? Do you honestly think it makes good business sense to drop everything the majority likes about your product to suite the small group that doesn't like it? The "silent majority" are the people not constantly whining about every little thing rather than actually playing the game.

Your right about the competitive side keeping things lively but thers more to it than that. Just take a look at Pokemon. theres a competitive side to the franchise but its far from being built around it.

Your complaints about Smash Bros not being made for the competitive players doesn't hold any more water than the competitive Pokemon players complaining that Pokemon isn't built around what they want.

Benjelo

#111

Benjelo said:

@OptimusG
I am answering your last post by paragraph:
If I am in that majority, which I don't consider myself to be in, then trust me, I do care about the mechanics of the game. Saying that I am part of the silent majority that does not speak out, yet I'm arguing with you right now is just contradicting.
"It's all luck based." No... just no... This game is not based on luck at all as far as character moves. Yeah, poke balls, assist trophies and all that were luck but saying that "I was unlucky when I got hit with samus's rocket" (One of the moves that is used constantly) is just false. In any event is is possible to avoid or block.

I think Zombie_Barioth covered your third paragraph there.

When I say intense players I mean people who are really into the game. And what do you mean that it is pretty obvious that people want him to cater towards the competitive side? Half if not the majority of people here are agreeing with him. Not to mention since it is the SILENT majority most of them wouldn't be worrying about all the news of the new SSB.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "Play my buttcheeks" and I really don't want to know... And since "(I am) obviously a casual" then I'll speak for my side that we all care about competitiveness. (<--Did I spell that right lol?) The whole purpose of the game is competitiveness, that is something we both agree on I think.

I really don't want to argue lets just say you won and get on with our lives.

OptimusG

#113

OptimusG said:

@Zombie_Barioth Pokemon is a whole different genre though. You can't compare the two. They both have different mechanics. It would be like me comparing Brawl to CoD. You can't. Also the competitive side of Pokemon quite large as well.

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