News Article

Round Table: Let's Talk About Super Mario

Posted by Thomas Whitehead

Tom: There seems to be a trend at the moment to say the 2D series is going stagnant. In our review Damien argued that New Super Mario Bros. 2 is like an Olympic athlete, doing variations of the same every time but doing it to a gold medal standard. We haven't played it yet, but what do you think of that perspective? Is it harsh to demand constant innovation?

Desiree: I think there comes a point where you've reinvented the wheel a bit too much and need to take a step back, look at the things you came up with before, and see what you can do with them. Back when NSMB hit I remember arguing for a proper New Super Mario Bros. 2 — not so much what we're about to be given, but something like SMB2 (US), with vegetable throwing, shell riding, POW-block throwing, enemy-tossing goodness.

Throw all of that into a SMB3 or SMW setting and see how it handles.

Christopher: I think Damien's point is entirely valid and considering that the 3DS already has its innovative Mario title, I think that NSMB2 is fine for the handheld. I do, however, think that Nintendo should have released the title later in the consoles' life cycle, as I just don't think it's needed at the point in time.

Gaz: NSMB2 is the first Mario game I’ve ever had serious doubts about. My theory with sequels has always been, if it doesn’t improve upon the original or do something different, don’t make it. Galaxy 2 took the Galaxy template and mixed it up a bit. NSMBWii took the NSMB template and added multiplayer. NSMB2 takes NSMB and... well what does it do extra? Hound coins like Wario? No thanks, I play my Mario games to platform, I play my Wario games to hunt for gold. Constant innovation is asking a lot, but if I want to play NSMB, I’ll probably just play NSMB and not buy a new game.

That and like Chris said, it's too early. NSMB Wii isn't that old, and there will be a point in the 3DS's life when sales slow — why not save a guaranteed seller until then?

Joe: I'm with Des. It IS harsh demanding so much innovation. The reason the Mario series has endured so long and remained so popular is because you know that you are going to get an incredibly solid platformer that is going to keep you entertained for quite some time. While NSMB2 hasn't gotten my blood pumping like Mario titles past, I still really want to play it and hope it surprises me, because "coins" doesn't really get me terribly stoked for the next iteration!

Christopher: If you look back at the history of Nintendo's home console Mario titles, as we've just done, there's a constant trend of innovation in every single first Mario title on each of the consoles. My real concern with the lack of innovation isn't with NSMB2, but with NSMB U. It's a new console, that's had an extremely shaky start from last years' E3 conference and I don't think that it's innovative in any way, which has me concerned quite a bit.

Tom: It seems clear, to me anyway, that from a development perspective Nintendo has some kind of level-editor/engine that makes these 2D games easy for its teams to throw together. What did you think when NSMBU was revealed: surely if NSMB2 is too soon, that's WAY too soon?

Gaz: NSMBU is too soon. It’s as simple as that. Especially when you put it up against Rayman Legends, which actually does something new and exciting with the GamePad. OK, NSMBU uses the Wii U’s power and has the Boost Mode but come on, do we really need another Mario game, another NSMB game, just 4 months later?

Desiree: I think it's entirely too soon for NSMBU, especially when there's plenty of other fine Nintendo franchises they could be launching with. Star Fox, F-Zero, Metroid, Kirby, Zelda (though it's a bit soon for that one after Skyward Sword, in my opinion), and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting at the moment but would be just as great to see happening at launch.

We've been inundated with Mario lately. I'll give NSMB2 a chance, but NSMBU isn't a system-seller for me, not the way NSMB was with the DS.

Tom: Perhaps the problem is Mario's success. Nintendo's under pressure to return to profit, and Mario is guaranteed sales. Other franchises simply don't have that power.

Joe: I was a bit disappointed because I was hoping for another grand, platform-defining 3D adventure a la Super Mario 64, and instead we're getting a variation on a series that is being done on the 3DS. This is the first Mario game to be HD and it's a 2D sidescroller? It looks nice, but it feels like a bit of a wasted opportunity.

Christopher: I think the "new" in the name alone is becoming an oxymoron in itself, to be completely honest.

Desiree: In terms of selling power, Zelda might do the job — Nintendo did it with Twilight Princess, and the Wii doesn't seem to have suffered for it.

Gaz: That is true, Zelda was a major selling point for me at launch.

Perhaps the problem is Mario's success. Nintendo's under pressure to return to profit, and Mario is guaranteed sales. Other franchises simply don't have that power.

Tom: I think Wii Sports sold mega numbers of Wii systems, not Zelda. It was the concept that did it, I reckon.

Zelda isn't the monster seller it deserves to be, statistically. It is with keen gamers, general public less so.

Desiree: True, but there wasn't a main-series Mario game for the Wii until a year after its launch, and again, it doesn't seem to have suffered for it. Wii U is supposed to be another crazy innovation; if Nintendo believes in it so much I'd like to see it launch with something other than Mario (not rely on Mario to sell the system).

Joe: Or at least have Mario do something that shows off what the system is all about.

Christopher: I agree, and like Gaz said so perfectly in his first contribution to Nintendo Life, there's a real possibility of wearing fans thin — not "out" — with too much Mario. More 2D Mario when we are just now getting one on 3DS really makes this a possibility. It's right when the Wii U is releasing, which makes it so much more questionable to me.

Tom: To play devil's advocate to complaints about repetition. Just what can the Super Mario series do to innovate further? I think Nintendo tried with 3D Land, but got greeted with mixed responses from fans.

Desiree: I'm fine with repetition, but not when it's the same things being repeated over and over and over again. I still want to see Nintendo create an honest-to-goodness Mario game with ideas and gameplay from SMB2(US). Let us play as the Princess or Toad as we please. Have us throw weird mushroom-bricks at monsters and climb chains to get away from electric sparks. Let me ride around a level atop a Shy Guy that's already atop a weird ostrich-thing.

Joe: I don't consider the "New" Super Mario series to be capable of "flagship" titles anymore. They're great games but they don't define the consoles they're on. Look at things like Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Galaxy; these both took the franchise in exciting new directions and you can't think of the N64 or Wii without those games. Wii U is doing so much and charting so much new territory for Nintendo, and I wish its first Mario game for the system reflected that.

Gaz: For the future, the NSMB series needs make strides between games like SMB3 and Super Mario World did. Change it significantly, but keep the core of the franchise at heart. And leave bigger gaps between games. Make a new Mario title an event, not another title. But the real development needs to be in the 3D platforms. It’s a mouth-watering prospect. Nintendo’s first grand Mario adventure in HD not only allows for better graphics, but also more elaborate gameplay elements. Just look at the leap from Sunshine to Galaxy. Just imagine what they could do next.

But the real development needs to be in the 3D platforms. It’s a mouth-watering prospect. Nintendo’s first grand Mario adventure in HD not only allows for better graphics, but also more elaborate gameplay elements.

Desiree: Also, I was going to say before that I don't read the 'New' in the title as being actually 'new' , just that it's not the same SMB series we grew up with as kids. The 'new' series is its own beast as far as I'm concerned.

Christopher: You can't always win, but even with Super Mario 3D Land's mixed results, it blasted the 3DS into the limelight unlike anything before it. I think Nintendo could have brought the "weirdness" back and went with something along the Super Mario Bros. 2/ Super Mario Sunshine route. There’s no telling what Nintendo can come up with, and I just think they can do so much better than New Super Mario Bros. U.

Desiree: I agree with Gaz. I remember when a new Mario game used to be a major event. Nowadays, they're not, and that kindof makes me sad.

Gaz: When Galaxy came out, everyone at my College came up to me asking how the game was — nowadays no-one even thinks twice about a new Mario game, it's just there.

Tom: If the 2D games become an almost yearly occurrence without much innovation, but a new 3D epic arrives every 3-4 years, is that a good way forward? Nintendo's success isn't about gamers like us, exclusively, let's not forget, but about satisfying a potential audience of over 100 million gamers in the DS and Wii generations.

Desiree: When we're more looking toward a spin-off sequel (Luigi's Mansion 2, Paper Mario 3D) than a main-series Mario game, there's a problem, I think.

Joe: I think Nintendo is pretty content right now to sell nostalgia back to us. Tanooki suit! Raccoon tail! That's fine, of course, but make those a bonus in these new games rather than the marquee feature.

Gaz: Releasing a new Mario 2D title every year would burn the franchise out like many before it — bad idea in my opinion

Tom: I don't think it's a good idea, I think it's what will happen. Every 12-15 months, I think Nintendo may actually go that way.

Joe: I think it's a good idea RIGHT NOW because Nintendo’s trying to sell 3DS systems. And it's working. It's a short-term fix to a different problem and if it keeps up it's going to turn into a much worse problem.

Christopher: It's not just Mario titles, as I just has this exact same issue happen with Sony's Uncharted series. Uncharted 3 was amazing on PS3, but a few months later when Vita released, I bought Uncharted: Golden Abyss. The game is phenomenal, and redefines what can be done in handheld gaming, but the similar gameplay styles of the series found me having a real struggle to get excited about playing the game. It actually took me a few months to finally beat the game.

Gaz: Perhaps eShop is the way forward, releasing smaller, incremental 2D titles through which new ideas can be tested?

Desiree: They wouldn't sell, though. Not the way they do at retail.

Tom: It’s something I explored in a feature within the last week, and small download games wouldn’t match retail sales, but could potentially set the eShop alight and tempt more gamers to try other download software and the full-fat retail Mario titles.

Joe: I think if our concern is to keep Mario game releases like "events" then I think smaller things on the eShop would be detrimental to that cause.

Desiree: I think Nintendo may be making a strategic move here with this new Mario title — releasing it both at retail and the eShop will get a lot more people connecting their 3DSes to the internet and involved in downloading things from the eShop overall. They missed the boat somehow with SM3DL and are playing catch-up with this one.

Mario is their main go-to guy for sales. If he doesn't get people involved with downloading from the eShop, nothing will.

Tom: So what do we want from Super Mario in future? If I may be cheeky, it sounds like we want innovation, more 3D, less 2D, and old-school game designs. All ideas to make Nintendo’s shareholders and accountants cry in fear.

Gaz: And Mario Sunshine 2. Don't forget that.

Christopher: While I agree these kind of games wouldn't sell as well, they will still sell. This is I think the real problem that lies behind this issue: money over innovation. Of course a new Mario title will sell, but when you make something for your fans, it keeps them around and makes them proud to be fans of your company — buying more in the long term, and passing it along to your next generation.

Joe: I just want Mario games to feel epic again, whether it's 2D or 3D. Think of Super Mario World, Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Galaxy and what they meant to their consoles. I want something that's going to grab me by the throat and say "Hey, MARIO IS HERE" rather than just Nintendo saying "Hey look it's our newest Mario game."

Tom: Maybe it shouldn't all be pinned on Mario to excite us about Nintendo though. If he's the cash cow, franchises like Donkey Kong, Kid Icarus and Metroid can try to innovate. I think the Mario everyone remembers as a new game every 2-4 years is possibly gone forever.

Joe: That's a frighteningly good point.

Gaz: I want Mario to feel like the release of a Zelda title does - epic. I want to feel that rush coming up to launch, I want to see something revolutionary, and I want to love every minute of it. Is that too much to ask?

Desiree: Yes.

Christopher: I actually want a new 2D Mario title, but I want in in 8-bit style and only cost a few bucks on the 3DS eShop. As for console Mario titles, I'd like to see at least one innovative Mario title on each new home console. If it deserves a sequel, as Super Mario Galaxy did, then do so. Otherwise, I want a new Mario release to become a big deal once again!

Tom: I agree Chris, I think there will be one big 3D title on each home console, but we should maybe accept that some other entries will be filler.

Gaz: I'd like an origin story on Il Piantissimo too if Nintendo are doing a new game every year, why does he wear a bucket on his head?

Desiree: I want, I want, I want — we can want all we please, but in the end, Nintendo is going to make the call, and until people stop purchasing the games in question, things won't change. John Q. Public is voting with their wallets, and they want the filler.

Tom: It's not as if that filler is rubbish, either.

Desiree: You're right, it's not horrible or anything. It's just not as good as we remember these games being when we were younger.

Joe: The worst Mario game is still leagues better than a lot of what's out there.

Christopher: I agree, but I think those "filler" titles are already there: Paper Mario, Mario Tennis, etc. Maybe we need more new Mario off-shoot "filler" titles?

Desiree: Bite your tongue, sir, for calling Paper Mario 'filler'.

Tom: Indeed!

Christopher: I absolutely LOVE the Paper Mario series!

Desiree: Super Paper Mario, perhaps. The main Paper Mario series, never (laughs).

Tom: Mario Tennis in the same sentence as Paper Mario. MY EYES!!!!

Gaz: Like Joe said, the Mario games are still leagues above a lot of games out there right now, even at their worst. The games aren't stagnant yet, but they're becoming derivative, and that's what Nintendo needs to avoid.

Christopher: Agree with Gaz completely!

Desiree: Thirded.

Tom: New Super Mario Derivative U 2, coming Holiday 2013.

Desiree: Hey, will that version have a cameo from Bono?

Tom: Oh yes, he fills in for Luigi in the second play-through.

Joe: You can hold the GamePad up to your face to simulate what it's like to see through his silly glasses.

Desiree: (Laughs)

Tom: Before we go, say three words about the Super Mario games on Game Boy, as we missed them. I'll go first. “All very fun”.

Gaz: “Never played them”.

Desiree: “Can live without.” Sorry, but it's true; none are really must-plays.

Christopher: SML is awesome!

Joe: Uh. Kind of forgettable.

Tom: And that's why we didn't talk about them.

Christopher: That should have been: [Super Mario Land] is ******* awesome!

And with that enthusiastic endorsement of Super Mario Land, our Super Mario round table is over. We'd love to read your opinions in the comments below.

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User Comments (42)

MetalMario

#1

MetalMario said:

Super Mario Bros. 3 is probably my second favorite Mario game. It is always a blast to play.

JohnPhilipSousa

#4

JohnPhilipSousa said:

It's a shame I missed that time. I would have loved playing SEGA Master System. (trollface)Seriously though, it sucks being a retro game fan as a kid. Other kids think you're weird, adults think you're not retro enough even though I honestly feel nostalgia for old games that I've never played. Now that I put it that way it does sound weird. (laughs) Also, I am sad to admit my first video game I've ever owned was some GameCube SpongeBob game. First I saw was a friend playing Leaf Green though, so I might be redeemed. (laughs)

WingedSnagret

#5

WingedSnagret said:

Tom: "Perhaps the problem is Mario's success. Nintendo's under pressure to return to profit, and Mario is guaranteed sales. Other franchises simply don't have that power."

I think that is one of the biggest reasons why Nintendo keeps pumping out Mario title after Mario title as of late. Mario prints money, and other series don't make enough to warrant more frequent installments, which is too bad.

Knuckles

#6

Knuckles said:

Well I grew up on Sonic 3 & Knuckles, so Super Mario doesn't have the same charm that classic sonic platformers do for me.

grumblebuzzz

#7

grumblebuzzz said:

I find these round tables hard to read because of the changing narration and not really knowing who is who. I think it would be a good idea to maybe record these as videos and post them in that way.

JohnPhilipSousa

#8

JohnPhilipSousa said:

I feel like I grew up on these games, but I didn't. Quite strange. I think this should've been Let's Talk About Sonic though. This is SErvice GAmes Life after all! (trollface)

Xilef

#9

Xilef said:

I actually think NSMBU will be a much more innovative game. I don't know why, since we don't know to much about it, but it just feels that way...

Bass_X0

#10

Bass_X0 said:

Desiree: TO DAVY BLOOBER'S LOCKER WITH THEE!

I call them Bloopers as they were called in the instruction manual.

Cia

#11

Cia said:

I think they should do something more innovative with Mario. It's just a mascot now, a soulless symbol of the corporation. I want the old, more humane Mario back, with modern technology of course.

Bass_X0

#12

Bass_X0 said:

Isn't modern technology what makes Mario soulless?

Give New Super Mario Bros. 2 the graphics of NES Mario and people will be going crazy for it.

Kyloctopus

#13

Kyloctopus said:

TBD really doesn't anticipate NSMB2 because it reminds her of Wario while I find the Kirby's Dream Land series alot like Mario.

baba_944

#15

baba_944 said:

Is it "Are" suppose to be "our"? And I never played a Gamecube or DS game back then, but I seen dozens of commercials for them and talking about New Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Sunshine, Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door which is fun

sinalefa

#16

sinalefa said:

@Grumblebuzzz

I guess having this as text helps a lot during editing. Similar to Iwata Asks. A friend of mine used to do some of these via AIM and the final thing looked completely different to the one live.

Anyway, the impossible request of "let's have yearly Marios and make them all awesome" proves its absurdity here. The New Marios have never been really amazing (the Galaxy games had that distinction on Wii) so I am not expecting anything groundbreaking, yet I would love to have a 3D Mario with many great ideas later in the Wii U's life. As long as it does not involve FLUDD, please

scrubbyscum999

#17

scrubbyscum999 said:

You guys make me feel young. My first games were Pac Man GBC and Super Mario Advance 2: Super Mario World with my purple GBA. Pokemon Emerald is what made me a gamer though.

Kyloctopus

#18

Kyloctopus said:

I decided to pop in my Super Mario All Stars disk, and I forgot how much fun SMB2 is. It's a good breath of fresh air.

Gretski

#20

Gretski said:

I grew up with a GameCube which will always remain my favorite system. I remember spending hours and hours with Kirby Air Ride and Luigi's Mansion.

Doge

#22

Doge said:

i also grew up with gamecube, and to this day i sdtill have kirby airide and sunshine oh, and cubivore who ever knows what that is say so!

Mario500

#23

Mario500 said:

Desiree: "Back when NSMB hit I remember arguing for a proper New Super Mario Bros. 2 — not so much what we're about to be given, but something like NSMB2 (US), with vegetable throwing, shell riding, POW-block throwing, enemy-tossing goodness"

I believe "NSMB2 (US)" is a typographical error for SMB2 (US).

FluttershyGuy

#24

FluttershyGuy said:

Great article, folks! :) Love reading your NintendoLifers of the Round Table discussions!

My first experience with the Brozzz was actually the original Mario Bros., where you knock over enemies from below and kick them away! I got it just before Christmas, 1987. When I got the NES a couple of months earlier, it was a Zapper/R.O.B. set, which came with Duck Hunt & Gyromite. I didn't actually play Super Mario Bros. until a moved a few months later to a small town that had a place which rented movies AND games. I'd not seen a place yet that rented games. So, it wasn't until like April or May 1988 that I played SMB! Turned out to be a good thing, as it wasn't much longer that I had to wait for SMB 2, which came out in early November of '88 (right before Zelda II).

Speaking of SMB 2, I'd also love to see a return to its gameplay. I can see it as a story where Bowser magically brings Wart & Co. out of Subcon and into the Mushroom Kingdom, for the sake of joining forces to battle Mario & Luigi! I'd have Wart as a mysterious figure that you're surprised by late in the game! Another want: To leave the Mushroom Kingdom for a Mario side-scroller again (and maybe it happens in NSMB U). I think that's one thing making the NSMB series stale. Getting old starting out at Peach's castle, the first world (and subsequent) looking so familiar. Return to Subcon, Dinosaur Land, or some new mysterious place that piques our interest again! :) Still hoping for New Super Mario World (if NSMB U isn't it in spirit) one day. :)

gundam00

#25

gundam00 said:

Simmer down y'all!! You'll get your 3D Mario Wii U in time! All this retrospect talk about past Mario games and Consoles, you guys skipped over a very big elephant! Nintendo stopped releasing brand-spankin-new Mario alongside Console releases with the GameCube. The last time Nintendo released a new Console with a ground-breaking Mario game was with the N64. GameCube was released alongside Luigi's Mansion. Wii was released with Wii Sports. The reason the 3DS tanked when it was released was because of the high price, but also because there was NO Mario game with the release! 3DS sales skyrocketed after Mario 3DLand was released. Nintendo recognized that Mario MUST be released with new hardware.

So we have the 3DS XL release alongside NSMB:2 and we have Wii U released alongside NSMB:U. Nintendo scrambled to put a team together for NSMB:2 in time for the XL release because the NSMB team was working on the Wii U game, which proves that Nintendo recognized: new hardware == new Mario

Now! The Wii was hugely successful with families. NSMB:Wii was hugely successful with families. Nintendo is MARKETING Wii U towards families!! So of course Nintendo is going to release the Wii U with a Mario title that is family-oriented. You guys even said what made NSMB:Wii so much fun, despite being a redundant game, was playing with your spouses!!!!!!

As we have seen with Mario Sunshine and Mario Galaxy, a 3D ground-breaking Mario will be released within the first year of the Wii U launch. 3D Mario is no longer Console-launch material. Multiplayer 2D Mario replaced that. And as we have seen with every 3D Mario, Nintendo changes the rules for what 3D should be and is capable of. But 3D still turns off a lot of players.

The reason Zelda feels so epic is because Nintendo hasn't cross-genred the Zelda brand with spin-offs. There's a reason why there is no Zelda Tennis or Zelda Party 9, or even Zelda Kart Racing. Mario is a FAMILY brand. That's why Mario is able to play tennis, play soccer, play board games, play kart racing, etc. Mario is the Mickey Mouse of Nintendo; a brand that is able to take on as many roles as possible without the side-effect of harming the brand.

Also, you guys say that all these Mario releases will tarnish the brand and turn people off. However, Nintendo has been doing this with Mario since the NES and Gameboy. There's been Dr. Mario, Mario Pinball, Mario Picross, Mario Party, Mario Fortune Street, Paper Mario, etc., with my personal favorite spin-offs being "Mario Is Missing!" and "Super Mario RPG" (EPIC!!!!).

So sit back and enjoy NSMB:U with your family as the game was intended!! And 3D Mario Wii U in HD will be released later next year and be so epic there will be a baby boom among gamers!

Nintendo KNOWS what they're doing! WE ARE NOT WORTHY!!!!!

WiiLovePeace

#26

WiiLovePeace said:

It was an interesting read until the last page where you guys went way too far in bashing the latest Mario games, it was nice to read different opinions about the various games in the series but then it dragged on & on in the last page.

As for me I enjoy all the Mario titles, I guess I'm just an easy to please gamer. I just look for fun in the games I play I don't really overly criticise things like controls or the camera, I play the games & if it all adds up to being fun then I'm a happy gamer :) I also don't too often compare games to other games, in the same series or otherwise. I like to look at the game I'm playing, the experiences it brings & not get so caught up trying to compare this game experience to another game experience, it just doesn't make sense to me to do that.

Bass_X0

#27

Bass_X0 said:

Would it be right to deny gamers the chance to play 3DS until Super Mario 3D Land was ready to be released in December?

triforcepower73

#28

triforcepower73 said:

@WingedFish This will probably come off as crazy but I think nintendo should stop making mario games for just a few years and focus solely on being known for their less popular franchises like f-zero, kid icarus, kirby, metroid, pikmin, and even zelda(I did that in alphabetical order). Their other series are just as good, if not, better than mario and a lot of people don't know it. It would be cool if nintendo were someday known for their epic franchises like zelda and metroid and kid icarus just as much as they are for their fun as heck franchises like mario and kirby. Don't get mad at me, it's just a thought.

ThomasBW84Admin

#29

ThomasBW84 said:

I fixed the typo where TBD was talking about hopes for a title in the same vein as Super Mario Bros. 2 (US), I'd missed that.

@WiiLovePeace - That last page was really a debate about where the series is, and though there was some criticism of some of the later games, there was some talk defending the current titles - differing opinions and all that. It's a weird time in the Super Mario series, just because of the volume of games, so it's a debate with multiple sides. Some of us want Mario to be less frequent and more innovative, and some of us think those days are gone but that the games are still excellent. If anyone came across as 'bashing' the newer games, it's probably because they care about the series so much :)

bezerker99

#30

bezerker99 said:

My first Mario experience was Mario Bros and Donkey Kong in the arcade.

And then it was Vs. Super Mario Bros. in the arcade.

And then I got a Nintendo Entertainment System for my birthday in 1986 and I had Super Mario at home! Sooooo awesome! Still one of my fav games ever.

Emaan

#31

Emaan said:

My first Mario game, was my first game ever. Yeah I'm young, that game was Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3 on the GBA. What a way to start off my journey as a gamer, that was the game that made me fall in love with video games. Time has passed, and Mario has changed. Super Mario Galaxy is still my favorite game, a shining example of how great a new Mario game can be, even better than the retro classics. Now however, I fear that the New Super Mario Bros. games are thinning out what used to be an innovative series. Super Mario is still my favorite series, but I'm watching and waiting to see how Nintendo will keep the series fresh, and most importantly fun.

SuperMinusWorld

#32

SuperMinusWorld said:

My thoughts on Mario, past, present, and the frightening future: The series' gilded history is one not too many other franchises can achieve, but these """"New"""" games are seriously ruining the Mario series' image to many fans. Destructoid said it best: 'The New Super Mario games should be seen just as spin-offs, and nothing more.'

In my eyes, the only true Mario games now are the 3D titles which continually innovate and change up the way they're played (with the exception of Galaxy 2). It's not too harsh to ask for innovation if 4 games in the series are already almost exactly the same (NSMB, NSMBWii, NSMB2, and now the bland and uninspired NSMBU). I've been a longtime fan of the Mario franchise and my excitement for each game increases gradually. However, NSMBWii and now NSMB2 are the first Mario titles ever to make me think twice about them. I'm considering buying 2, but U is not a system seller and I will gladly play it at a friend's while waiting for a proper Mario game to come to the Wii U.

If Nintendo doesn't wake up and see how they're damaging this series (my and many others' all-time favorite game series ever), then we may never get an inventive, fun, and truly "New" game from the 2D Mario's again.

Super-Mario-Fan

#33

Super-Mario-Fan said:

Mario games are great. I never complained about any of the Mario games.Their all so great. Super Mario Sunshine will still be my favorite Mario game of all time.

stealth

#34

stealth said:

Some of the statements made by the writers are ridiculous

1) Nothing has made it more clear, there will be 1 2d mario per system per gen

thats it. Its not going to happen every year

2) Mario U is a total system seller. Its stunning, original, I havent seen any 2d mario like it. Its made by the main team and everything

Dont even compare the 3ds 2d game to it, as it was made by a team who never made mario before

A 2d mario IS THE PERFECT launch game. Everyone will buy it

Mario games sell MORE than they ever have

they are more of an event. A very very special event

stealth

#35

stealth said:

alot of them come off like 3d mario elitists

new super mario is FAR MORE POPULAR, than ANY other mario title in history

can you blame them? the games are amazing

Blizzaga

#36

Blizzaga said:

I'm personally apalled at all the hate Mario has been getting recently. It just does not compute. Unless I pin it on it being a new fad, that Mario-hating is now the cool thing to do.

I, for one, HATE having to wait years and years for a new main Mario title, because when I beat them I thirst for more. No fuggin' way that I'd be content with having to wait for a brand new console to come out. With the Wii, my dream came true. THREE main Mario titles to keep me busy. Now that was more like it.

And now, I still demand more Mario. 3D Land rocked my world and New Super Mario Bros. 2 is my most highly anticipated game of the year. I've been wanting a handheld sequel to my most favorite DS title for years now. They shouldn't have waited this long if you ask me.

As for New Super Mario Bros. U, it looks amazing to me, but I'm not anticipating it merely because I won't be able to afford a Wii U any time in the foreseeable future, especially if I still can't find a job in this bad economy and horrible town (12% unemployment rate) I'm stuck in.

But I digress.

All this Mario makes me very very happy. It's a dream come true for me. So seeing all these people complain over the past several months has been a STRONG kick to my balls. To the point where I feel like distancing myself from the gaming community since it seems more and more like I'm alone in the universe with my opinion.

As for "stagnant"? Puh-leeze. I don't care what you guys say, each NSMB game may look alike (BUT IT'S A FUGGIN' SERIES. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT?), but each one has variety and are unique enough to be their own games.

As for NSMB2 and U being released so closed to each other, I submit the question: so what? One is a handheld game, while the other is a home console game. Problem?

Now, I could understand if they were on the same console. But they're not, so I don't see their release dates as a legitimate argument. The article was mostly about nostalgia, and I was apalled that you guys were saying that we should all be forced to wait 3-4 years per Mario title merely because of your anticipation and hype train nostalgia. It came off as elitist. I personally love nostalgia, but this is one of those times where someone can rightly say that you need to take the rose-shades off for a moment, long enough to wake up and smell the coffee. There is no legitimate reason to wait so long for an outstanding Mario title. Unless you bring up the innovative ones that come out once a generation, then you're just being selfish and stinking things up for those who would love to have several Mario games per console instead of waiting forever until the next console. 2D Mario games are obviously easier to make than the 3D ones, and thus can be churned out faster. I don't see any problem with that. Am I disappointed that the Wii U won't have a console-bending Mario 3D title at launch? You bet I am! However, I'm not going to take it out on New Super Mario Bros. U, which will be an outstanding game in its own right.

I personally want a Super Mario Galaxy 3, but that's a topic for another day.

Anyways, I was disappointed with this round table. If it were to have a subtitle, I'd submit: "When nostalgia can be a bad thing."

Blizzaga

#37

Blizzaga said:

@stealth New Super Mario Bros. 2 was mainly a new team, but so what? The torch needs to be passed some time in the future. :P

And anyways, they all took part in a "Mario Cram School".

Tokool2007

#40

Tokool2007 said:

I'm gonna have red marks on my head where I face palmed many times during the comments...

SuperMinusWorld

#41

SuperMinusWorld said:

@stealth The New series is uninspired, bland crap. Where the original sidescrollers continued to change their graphics, music, gameplay, and locations, the New series follows a strict code in how the games look, play, sound, and where they take place. They never strive for better. They just play it safe because they know they'll get big sales. The gameplay is, as is expected of Mario games, tight and feels good; but that doesn't make up for the fact that we're literally buying almost the same exact game with a few tweaks here and there. When did you leave Destructoid, by the way?

@Blizzaga It may be a series, but that doesn't mean the games have to all have the same graphics, music, and gameplay. Super Mario Bros. 1-4 (aka World), they're part of the series, and yet they are unique and innovative in every way from each other. I agree all this Mario isn't a bad thing at all; but if each game is going to become progressively dull and the same as the title before it, then it does turn into a problem. The "New" series has indeed become stagnant. List the things that each title did new that makes each game different from one another. Oh NSMB... Made everything old new again? NSMBWii... Did that too, but with multiplayer now, I guess? Woo? NSMB2 has... Lots of coins for no reason? Ok... NSMBU has uh.. Multiplayer again, but this time the backgrounds are prettier and the fifth player can... Make platforms. Ok, this is stupid.
SMB started it all and laid down the ground work of an adventure game, and also what each future Mario game would be like, and introduced the timeless tale of Mario vs Bowser. SMB2 shook it all up with the Subcon adventure; no more stomping enemies and power-ups; this time you were to use terrain and other enemies to fight your enemies, and introduced manu longtime baddies like the Bob-omb. SMB3 went back to its roots, but this time the world is your stage! You can pick up shells, hold items in your bag for later, fight the Koopalings, and travel a variety of lands across the Mushroom World. SMW took you to Dinosaur Land to save the Yoshis from Bowser's clutches, and you'll traverse the huge, interconnected world map as you discover more power-ups, and test your skills with Star World and the Special World.

Why can't it be like that anymore? Granted, we don't know much about NSMBU, so I will definitely give it benefit of the doubt. But Nintendo has got to stop mining for nostalgia and playing it safe. I want them to give me a sense of nostalgia by doing unique and creative things with future games. Give me back that anticipation and excitement that I used to feel for the 2D Mario games by showing me a game that I've never played before, but I really, REALLY want to.

eviLaTtenDant

#42

eviLaTtenDant said:

I love the Round Tables and this one even gave me a different perspective on some things. (Especially on how you can like SMB3 more than World.) Thanks guys.

While SMB wasn't the first game i played, it sure was the first sidescroller i'd ever seen. And though i don't really remember special moments while playing it i know that it is one of the very few games i dreamt about a couple of times. (What if Mario jumped over the flagpole, what if he didn't use the pipe out of the underwater levels but got on the surface instead ...) So it must have had quite an impact on me.

When it comes to NSMB2 and NSMBU i hope they're the last "strategy-only" Mario releases for a long time. (The former to push downloadable (retail) games and the latter to make the install base of the Wii U as huge as possible from day one.)
While i wouldn't rule out being interested in another 2D Mario with a mixture of the SMB3 and SMW map mechanics and maybe even some more puzzle elements seen in the Wario Land games i think it would be best if that only came on the successors to the 3DS and the Wii U.
I mean they can give us DLC now, so there's really no need have a full retail game before they don't have a mindblowing idea.
I'm very interested in a new 3D Mario though and wouldn't mind a sequel to SM3DL late in the 3DS's lifespan.

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