Talking Point: Should Nintendo Try to Recapture 'Hardcore' Gamers?

Yes, seeing as Hardcore gamers are the ones who actually buy games.

The whole "Hardcore vs Casual" is a joke to me.
Casual = People who play games occasionally, in short servings (if you must)

Hardcore = People who play a wide array of games- no matter what genre it is, especially if it's a challenge. But mostly, people who play video games that put in hours upon hours in a game- whether it be Wii Fit and 3-starring all exercises or unlocking everything in Brawl.

I mean, that's what Casual and Hardcore meant before this generation. It should have stayed that way, too...

I think there should definitely be "hardcore" games on the Wii2/Cafe. I guess it really depends on what you consider a hardcore game. Is it old practically unbeatable game like Contra or do you mean blood and guts like Halo. I don't mind a few good FPSs but I would rather have some tough games like those from the NES era.

Heck no, I want more Cooking Mama games.

I still say a game is a game is a game. It's really the more recent generations that have put such an emphasis on "hardcore" and "casual". Still, it would be nice to have a dedicated hardcore platform for the gamers that want it. Nintendo has the brains, the imagination, the ideas, and the skills, but it's only been put into minimal practice.

Nintendo needs to keep doing what they do. It's obviously been successful so far.

was a bummer when they said we wouldnt get re5 because of wiis lack of power guessing it will be out on wii2 though hope we can still use a remote or the new controller has point function played re5 on laptop didnt think it was as good as 4 but using keys didnt help i think they will get a lot more different genres like the 3ds has now and in the pipeline looking forward to see what they come up with

@2 I think your'e right. Hardcore better describes a gamer rather than a game. ALMOST any game can be made hardcore in the right hands.

@8

My point exactly. Some of the exercises on Wii Fit are pretty tough and challenging. My mom bought it for herself but she only used it for like a week. I started playing it last year and I've had fun doing the exercises and games. People who say otherwise (such as "Wii Fit is too casual and boring") are usually the ones who don't even own the game or only seen promotional videos. Try to perfect them Yoga exercises then get back to me. Oh, and that wicked obstacle course on the hardest difficulty.

Just as you said: Games don't define whether you're hardcore or not.

A hardcore game, in my mind, is something that challenges you to the wits end, has a big learning curve that might take a while to get used to or a game where you have to spend a lot of time with it to get any better.

Casual games are more like, for example, puzzle, racing etc. because they don't have a learning curve (admittedly some racers do) and are generally very easy to do.

The difference is basically, someone who just wants a short burst of fun and move on (Casual) and to completely explore, unlock hidden items, maps, weapons etc., become better at the game and do everything in the game (Hardcore).

To put it simply: A game that you have to spend a lot of time with to get any better or push yourself to progress further is a hardcore game. Ones that you can go through without much effort is a casual game, but any game can be hardcore.

Okay, tricky. I guess that Nintendo still needs to continue to find a balance. For example when the Wii became popular for Wii Sports, developers of more traditional software had a hard time making true profit on the console.

At the same time, I personally find the 3DS kinda "hardcore" by Nintendo standards and personally feel it's suffering a bit because of it. Like I said, there needs to be some sort of balance.

Plus casual and accessible should stop meaning easy for goodness sake. That my biggest problem with the label.

@Komicturtle92

Aye, but the point is that they play a wide array of games. Most "casual" gamers tend to stick with a fair few games. What Nintendo needs are the hardcore, who'll actually purchase and play a wide array of games.

What do you mean Hardcore gamer? You mean the traditional meaning, or the idiotic current-gen redesign of the term that's just another synonym for "testosterone"?

I think that the wii has a great selection of games for hardcore games, its just a shame that the advertising and promotion was so small compared to the casual games. I think that the wii successor should still have casual games as it would help to keep its wide audience and some casual games are fun for all gamers and not just casual gamers but I think that the focus should be on hardcore games this time and by that I mean the traditional meaning of the term not the idiotic new meaning that comes from ignorant gamers that that buy games because of their age rating or think that rpgs and fightinh games are crap.

hardcore gamers should play the casual games too...if they're really hardcore...

I am hardcore. Yes, Nintendo, recapture me. Should be easy, considering in dangerously getting close to the two hundread Wii game purchase by the day. Give me F-Zero, give me Pilotwings, give me Starfox! And I will give you my hard earned money in return.

If the Wii supported 1080p, go a 2 GB HDD and a little better graphics it would be hardcore.

Harcore and Casual are PR Bullsh*t terms made up to rally up the fanboys and wrongly label people. I've been playing games ever since the Pong machines that existed a while back. Played everthing from platformers and FPS to DDR and Guitar Hero. I play Wii Fit, Cooking Mama and Brain Age while also playing Final Fantasy XIII, God of War III and CoD games... so what am I exactly? A casual hardocore? A Harcore casual? Puuuure BS.

Mickeymac has the right idea. It seems that the so-called casuals buy a lot of the same games, but "hardcore" gamers, while less plentiful, buy a obscene amounts games in comparison. If they can somehow manage to appeal to both, they'll be in terrific shape.

why not have a console capable of doing everything.
if the next console is up on par with the other next gen consoles, why can`t nintendo have it all.
3rd parties won`t winge about graphics and horse power, and nintendo fans won`t miss out on all that they offer.
win - win all round i think.

CPU – Custom IBM Power 6 Chip (Codename Fox), Quad Core 3.5Ghz

Graphics – Custom AMD RV770 (Codename Wolf) 766Mhz

RAM – 512MB XDR2 DRAM (Main), 1024 GDDR5 VRAM (Video), 16MB eDRAM

Storage – 2.5″ 250/320GB SATA & Expandable storage via SD/SDHC card up to 64GB

Media – Custom Bluray & compatible with Nintendo GameCube Game Discs & Wii Disc

Display – Composite – 480i, S-Video – 480i, Component – 480/720/1080, HDMI – 480/720/1080

I hate the word "hardcore". It seems to me the people that call themselves "hardcore" are the only who sit and play shooters online all day. (Not all, but some.) Then they call people like me, who play Mario and Zelda, not "real" gamers.

I really hate how divided the gaming community is. Why can't we all just be GAMERS and enjoy our games without fighting?

While I'm sure that seeing GTA5 and Wii2 Fit Cafe on the same platform may put off people in BOTH camps of gamers, the fact is that sticking with one sector of the market leads to a very limited practice for growth. Sony and Microsoft understood this and developed their family friendly stuff just as Nintendo got more "core titles" in their stable, such as Goldeneye and Monster Hunter Tri. If Nintendo can fully intigrate a universal market plan, then expanding to the "hardcore" gamers can only be a net positive for them in the long run, especially since Move and Kinect seem to be stumbling out of the gate, Move more so then Kinect.

I blame the "hardcore/casual" debate on sixth generation FPS games. There was a time when gamers were pointed at, laughed at, and made fun of. We were considered nerds, stuck in our mom's basement, etc. Then, games such as Halo and Call of Duty attracted a new community of gamers: the casuals. They stole the term "hardcore", called it their own, and tea-bagged their way to mainstream popularity.

Now, in the seventh generation of gaming, hardcore has taken a completely different meaning. Those who know the Konami code "up up down down left right left right b a start" are suddenly merely casual. Those who spend over a hundred hours questing, grinding, and micro-managing inventories on their way to greatness are considered casual. If one choses not to play the newest HD M-rated shooter, they're casual.

There are still some good titles released only on HD consoles that are truly hardcore, requiring more skill, effort, and determination to complete than any of the mainstream "hardcore" games available. However, they tend to not sell well and are overshadowed by the newest Call of Duty release or the game with the prettiest graphics. Games with true substance are oft overlooked and ignored due to appearances (I'm looking at you, Little King's Story).

tl;dr version: Modern FPS games and the mainstream audience they have captured have made other great games and developers suffer. Hudson is a great example of a developer that refused to delve into the mainstream and performed well for nearly forty years, finally succumbing to financial struggles. True "hardcore" titles are often ignored, shunned, and tend to perform poorly in comparison to games that could honestly be considered casual.

All in all, remove the stigmas, remove the titles, give more attention to under-appreciated magnificent titles, and let everyone be happy. Developers run to the money, and FPS games are cash-cows.

@12

That I will agree with.

But my point stands in what I believe Casual and Hardcore mean.

@21

Uhm.. Are those the real specs? I do know that AMD apparently will be providing Nintendo with a graphics card to use in their console (as a rep said the card will be ready late this year and will be used for a console set to release next year).

Of course, I'm not too keen on specs myself so I avoid it or just read what someone has to say- y'know, explaining it.

its an internal document from nintendo Mr.25 i haz link but im not sure if i can post that link through an article here, id take it with a grain of salt my self gross but it seems to be somewhat partly legit because of the picture

Yeah, I looked it up. Well, we're a week away and it is a recent leak.

Can't wait. But I do hope Nintendo allows use to use third-party hard drives. I'd like to use my 750GB Hard drive as it was only $69. It's crazy that MS is charging $120 for their 250GB HD. Then again, it's a business :/

Most "hardcore" gamers have no clue what being a "hardcore" gamer is. Most of these idiots that claim to be "hardcore" only play FPS. That's not a hardcore gamer to me, that's a FPS gamer.

Seems fairly simple to me, Nintendo has to determine whether they are going to focus on mainly targeting the few who play many games (hardcore) or the many who play few games (casual, or softcore). Any other definition is redundant for a business.

As Nintendo has made record profits with the Wii, it would seem that 'casual' is the right approach (at least for producers). However the novelty of the Wii does seem to have worn off, and maybe they'd be best going for 'hardcore' again, as they did with the N64 (at least, a small dedicated following is what they ended up with). I hope they don't attempt both and get neither, as they did with the GameCube.

I'm not that old, but from what I can tell the notion came about with the N64 and it's competition with the Playstation, I never heard the SNES or the Megadrive described in either terms. I don't think the market was big enough back then to make that particular distinction.

I'm glad the gaming industry has grown sufficiently in size for such a distinction to be possible.

Based on what was leaked (though, don't know how true it is), it would be pretty silly to focus mainly on the "hardcore" types. Why? well, the system looks not much more powerful than the current PS360. When Sony and Microsoft release their consoles, Cafe will be like where the Wii is now.

The smart move? Continue to make games of many genres that appeal to many different types of people. Give some parity to how you market these games to attract a large base while you have some market advantage. However, the newest COD being on your machine isn't going to make people who already have a PS360 buy a Cafe. There needs to be something new (like motion control was) to make the machine appeal to multi-console owners.

I myself have always wanted more hardcore games on the Wii, but who ever wrote this hit the spot, and hard! There are so many other games that are fun and exciting on the Wii. It would have been nice to see Batman or battlefield... it's funny, as i write this it's hard to think of a game I'd like on Wii.

Remember in like fifth grade when everything was either "cool" or "gay?" That's what this "casual" and "hardcore" nonsense is about; it's allowing full grown adults to get away with acting like 12 year-olds.

"Dude you play Kirby? What a loser--that game is so gay!"
has been replaced with
"Dude, you play Kirby? What a loser--that game is so casual!"
Obviously they don't have to mean that (I'm certainly guilty of using "casual" and "hardcore" in reviews, but only as a means of conveying that a game is intended either for people who are familiar with gaming or people who aren't), but most sites use them just as I mentioned above--as a mark of "quality." That, to me, is shameful.

Mr.27 yeah i always thought about getting that kinect 250 gb 360 bundle for 400 dollars it seems like a good price considering what u would of paid for if bought all pieces seperately but im perfectly fine with the 200 dollar 60 gb pro model i got when it was going on sale and even the old 250 harddrive is still a bit too much for my taste

Nintendo makes my favorite franchises, so I'll always stick with their console. My only hope with N6 is that we will get real 3rd party support.

The Wii (and Gamecube and N64) suffered from several droughts of quality titles, since Nintendo alone cannot produce enough games to fill out an entire year, certainly not to the level that consoles with full support receive. Get rid of those droughts with 3rd party releases of big name titles, and you give people less to groan about. Sure, people will still groan, but it will just sound that much more stupid when they do.

I do however find the idea that Wii hasn't sold games is really misinformed. The last stats I saw have Wii out far ahead of its two competitors in terms of software sold, so I guess those "casuals" must be buying a lot more software than those "hardcores".

I hate the word "hardcore". It seems to me the people that call themselves "hardcore" are the only who sit and play shooters online all day. (Not all, but some.) Then they call people like me, who play Mario and Zelda, not "real" gamers.

This. I play both shooters, fighters, RPGs, zombies etc. and Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Donkey Kong etc. so therefore I'm a hardcore casual... I think not. GAMES are either hardcore or casual, GAMERS can be both.

The better discussion should be "Should Nintendo move into the 21st century when it comes to their online and storage practices, along with making strides to gather more good 3rd party support?" The short and correct answer is YES.

meh i play
Mario, Zelda, Metriod, Donkeykong, a bit of kirby maybe, Halo, Prince of persia, legend of dragoon, king of fighters, Animal Crossing, elderscrools, tetris, pacman, galaga,

bassically anything that appeals to me and if i enjoy it enough i play it more if thats not the definition of hardcore then i dont know what is otherwise it is just a word to me and i am bassically a gamer that plays games because its a hobbie i like or love alot that i treat it like a daily routine

lol its like saying santa claus not real is not hardcore because he only delivers once a year

@ Kid A

I'm a heterosexual man (honest) who loves Kirby, but it must be conceded that he is a bit camp!

Casual however, he is not. Have you seen the things he can do!

The distinction between hardcore and casual has become so polluted these days that it doesn't really matter anymore, at least not to me.

I just want Nintendo to provide something that is on par with (or surpasses) the capabilities of the Xbox360 and PS3. I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on games just because I don't want to buy another system and I still want to enjoy my Mario and Zelda games (which would be amazing on something with that kind of graphics capability).

Hardcore is Metroid w/o a map!!!!

I have to agree with the people here who said that the term "hardcore" has drastically changed from what it use to mean. I really do believe PR plays one of the biggest parts in this whole Hardcore/Casual thing.

Today, hardcore is a realistic looking FPS or TPS (third person shooter) with seemingly 80% of the effort put into the online multiplayer aspect 10% on single player, and the other 10% on levels to be added later. The ads shown on television and on the internet really seem to help give off this vibe.

When I started gaming (back in the NES days of course..I admire those who started back in the Atari 2600 days, though), there was no such thing as hardcore or casual. They were all just games to play. Mario was as much a game as Castlevania and Metal Gear were.

Over the years, media outlets and such have labeled gamers (and those with overall intrest in technology) as the nerds with no social lives who do absolutely nothing but play their video games and stay on their computers. Thankfully, consoles like the Genesis, PS1 and PS2, Dreamcast, and N64 were helping break that mindset.

Then Wii came along and completely demolished that mindset lol .

Now, we have new labels which are, in essence, the new "mature/kiddy" from the Dreamcast/PS2/GCN/Xbox generation. Back then, the Gamecube was labeled the "kiddy console" with PS2/Xbox being labeled the most hardcore of the bunch.

When Wii (the Revolution) was first announced as this black box that could play games for NES/SNES/N64 and every Gamecube game, Nintendo began losing it's kiddy image. When they spoke about online functions like WiiConnect24 (most used in Animal Crossing City Folk), they began to lose the kiddy image. Then the controller was announced and imaginations went flying! We began thinking of various types of games that could work with it (including FPS, TPS, Point and Clicks, Mario games, survival horror games, new IPs, etc). It was seemingly a console for everyone (those who liked PS2 and Xbox as well as those who haven't gamed in years/ever).

PS3 looked like a pretty fun console and so did Xbox 360 (even though it was out for a year already), but it looked like Wii had more variety to offer. Not saying that PS3 and 360 didn't have variety, just that Wii seemed to provide a little more variety than the others . And with lower dev costs, developers were ready to put all they could in Wii!

That's when PR stepped in.

The moment we started to see more games for the people who really don't play games all that much, we started to see a rise of new gamers. These people would see others playing Wii Sports, Zelda, or Excite Truck and want to give it a go. So these people bought Wii consoles, and played the games they saw others having so much fun moving around playing.

Finally, there was a console that didn't seem so off putting to those who want to just put in a game for fun every now and then. And the overall intention (to my knowledge) was to try and make these people more like the dedicated gamers. This sounded great!
But here's the kicker.

Turned out that the majority of games we saw on television advertised for Wii started to become more and more saturated with games like Carnival Games and the latest Spongebob Squarepants. Then we would see games on TV for Wii like Wii Sports, Wii Music, and Wii Sports Resort. We would see the latest Cooking Mama, Super Mario Baseball, and Rayman Raving Rabbids for Wii.

But the games like Twilight Princess, No More Heroes, Trauma Center: Second Opinion/New Blood, House of the Dead, Red Steel 2, Madworld, and the many others like it never got huge TV advertising pushes. In the case of The Conduit for Wii, TV commercials were seen mostly Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon (with a very rare showing on MTV).

All the while, gamers couldn't blink without seeing a commercial for Call of Duty: Big Red One, Halo 3, Uncharted 2, Gears of War, God of War, Final Fantasy 13, Call of Duty 4, Grand Theft Auto IV, and others like them for Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. Games like Buzz and Viva Pinata were few and far between for TV ads on the HD consoles.

This helped build the image of Wii being the console for the "casuals" and the PS3/360 being for the "hardcore" gamers. We use these terms as opposed to mature/kiddy because, with all due respect, not every casual game is "kiddy" (beating someone in the face with sticks and punching people in the face in boxing rings aren't too kiddy). So the terms "hardcore" (synonomous with "for real men" or "for the gamers tired of being 7 years old") and "casual" (synonomous with "a game for grandmothers and soccer moms", or "a game for people to just play one time and forget forever") made its way not only to online forums, but on the stages of E3 (said by Peter Moore, Reggie Fils Amie, and Kaz Hari) and in the editorials of PR big wigs to sell their games.

This also began to scare off many 3rd party devs who really wanted to put their games on Wii hoping to make a profit. If they put there fun looking game on Wii, they believed it would be overshadowed because it didn't look "casual" enough and wasn't built toward the Wii audience of "casual" players. They turned to the HD twins, which led to more third parties believing in the whole "casual/hardcore" thing, which led to a significant drop in 3rd party games and a rise of a negative label for Wii AND it's audience and fans. PR has helped turn what could have been the best console of all time in ALL aspects into a #1 selling laughing stock. They helped give Wii an new, negative image and cause a drop in 3rd party support and lack of use of the full potential, power, and features of Wii.

Of course, this is how I look at the whole situation.

@Kid_A
Ha, I do agree.

@ The Question
Let the other companies try to market to this hardcore demographic.

Nintendo is much more skilled at beginning from its own idea of what electronic fun can look like, rather than first studying the group of people who currently buy the most games (younger male etc) and then catering to their often immature tastes.

In other words, Nintendo may often be the least adept at figuring out what the gamer-types want (Wii Music was an ingenious game, for instance, but a horribly calculated e3 presentation for that audience), but that's their strength, for they look to change the market and consumer base itself instead of merely plugging away at the self-defined "core" groups.

One more way of stating this: there are 2 types of advertising. The traditional way is to actually shape what consumers want, which can sometimes have a negative connotation but which also has a positive potential for fundamentally altering the way consumers think, or opening up new opportunities for a certain type of product. That is akin to what Nintendo typically does. The other type of advertising is newer, and involves meticulously studying and tracking your consumers, so that you can identify the most common characteristics of the big purchasers and then cater your products and services to their preferences. Sony and Microsoft are much closer to this strategy.

Well, i sometimes feel very lonely gaming-wise, every other person i know plays "hardcore" games that i really don't care about and can't play at all. Most of their games have to do with aiming, shooting and killing, it's not a problem with older games, but the most recent Hi-res games where everything looks so real are painful to my eyes!
They don't seem to like the fact that i buy my games either.

Mario and Zelda games are now considered not casual enough for casual gamers. That casual gamers can be put off a game just because its a Mario or a Zelda game. The Mario Party series lost out to Wii Party to appeal to more people. Mario Galaxy 2 would probably have sold more if everything that made it look like a Mario game was made more generic looking (but still played the same) and you could play as a Mii instead of Mario.

@CowLaunch
I wasn't having a go at Kirby; I was having a go at people that have a go at Kirby, simply because he's pink and cuddly. I love Kirby games

@warioswoods
Well once again, you've hit the nail on the head. I do hope that the next console will contain many of the features that the PS3 and 360 have, simply because I think Nintendo could do some really interesting, innovative things with them. SpotPass/StreetPass are ingenious forms of wireless communications, so I'd love to see the sort of crazy, Nintendo-y things they could bring to the online gaming front.

I think gamers in general should stop having such crappy tastes in games. Actually... Rathe said it best. Too bad most of the people reading this site and/or the comments aren't idiots like on every other gaming website.

edit: Wow... apparently between the time I read the article and posted my comment, approximately 8 billion new comments were posted.

Hardcore is now used very loosely. Some people call themselves "hardcore gamers" because they think that playing fast paced action games and killing games is all cool and popular. Ask any "hardcore gamer" who's a about it and on mario, sonic, and the Wii what makes a game good. Watch them respond with something like "violence and/or graphics".
Casual gamers just want to be entretained. "Hardcores" want to relate themselves to casuals because they want to brag about being "real gamers". Playing Call of Duty 482 hours a day 13 days a week is not even being a gamer, it's wasting your life. (To the fake "hardcores") Just because the Wii is not as graphically powerful as 360 and PS3, shouldn't mean you're not gonna get the Wii cuz your "hardcore" wants to see things' insides raining in HD, and also because apparently Mario games and Sonic Colors are too damn , right!?!
Sorry for the outburst. It's just that my idea of hardcore is not cursing out the teletubies and getting into a fight with you because I claim I'm better than you in every gory game you've ever played. It's being able to take on any game's challenge, wether it's Bratz Ponyz or Final Fantasy 9,643.
Casuals that make games last, two thumbs up to you! Real hardcores who are just very experienced gamers in any genre, the rest of my thumbs up to you (Hint: not zero o_0)!

I wonder what kind of responses I'll get...

They never lost them as far as I'm concerned. If you gave up on gaming ever since the Wii then how "Hardcore" could you have been?
It will be nice if Nintendo breaks away from the usual bottom of the barrel status graphics wise.
Saying they lost the harcore this Gen is just Ignorant. There are many games in this category for Wii.
You just have to look past the Shovelware. It's not just a waggle machine for 70+ year old grannies.

It's being able to take on any game's challenge, wether it's Bratz Ponyz

Being able to see everything a game has to offer in an hour does not make you hardcore. The game just lacks challenge and length. Which is why they are referred to as casual games. Because anybody can pick them up and get to the end with the minimum of difficulty.

If you gave up on gaming ever since the Wii then how "Hardcore" could you have been?

I think more people went to the PS3 and XBOX 360 than completely give up on gaming.

Personally, I'll just continue to buy the games I like to buy. Unfortunately, Nintendo no longer seems interested in providing me those kinda games this generation. I hope that changes next gen.

Well im gonna skip the hardcore thing and come to my conclusion.I hope the Wii2 has a bit more serious games.Dont get me wrong,I do like family freindly games,but it seems XBox and PS3 get all the shooters and very popular games!If we still have the Nintendo charm and some more serious games also,it will appear to a very large audience.Uncharted Wii anyone?

its not really about the wii coming across as hardcore whatever that means its about the graphical boost getting it more attention from games that havent looked at it in the past not bothered if any certain games get made or not long as it gets games which it will do win.

I will personally love everyone here if they don't stop using the terms "hardcore" and "casual".
_{thank you for not bringing it to threats of violence — TBD}

I would like to see more third parties getting involved with making games for Nintendos new system. It was really frustrating that the Wii kept being stiffed on alot of great games. It just didn't have the horsepower and developers wanted nothing to do with it.
No current system should be lagging behind the others.
Hopefully this new system is powerfull enough to match up to the rest.

What confuses me is when people say, "Nintendo doesn't make the kind of games I want to play anymore."

What exactly is Nintendo doing that differently this generation they they did with the Gamecube, 64, SNES and NES? As Thomas pointed out in his article, Nintendo has put out some incredible first party games this generation, even bringing great new entries to dead franchises like Punch-Out!! and Donkey Kong Country. They just happen to make games like Wii Party on top of all their typical first party stuff, now.

I think if they try to "re-capture hardcore gamers" they will do a great job no matter what their definition is. All I ask is for them to maybe encourage more devs to jump on board and make creative epic games.

Yes, oh YES! Recapture me now, in front of everyone! You know I like violence, and other stuff! Like a huuuge resolution which shoots awesome graphics at my eyes..! But really, please go for the hardcore gamers this time around. I'm sick of Wii Sports and other casual games! x(

Depends on your definition of hardcore, I think. The term "hardcore gamer" is sort of like the term nerd, everybody thinks it is something different. If hardcore means enjoying hard games, then sure. I don't think they've lost that audience. I don't have to list all the rather challenging games made for the wii. What's so bad about making party games too?

However, I've often used the term "hardcore gamer" to refer to somebody who thinks that one type of game is the only type of good game. Hardcore gamers come in several varieties, the "hardcore hardcore gamer" who thinks that FPS games and gory games are the only type of "real" game. They miss out on a lot of good games because they aren't open minded enough to try a good Kirby game.

There also is the "Nintendo Hard hardcore gamer" who doesn't mind cute platformers and stuff as long as they are as hard as nintendo hard games. Wants new games to be as hard as a lot of NES/SNES/Arcade releases involving pixel perfect platforming and no saves.

I suppose there also is the "Nostalgic hardcore gamer". The one who never takes his rose tinted glasses off and believes strongly that there haven't been any good games since insert system here.

If that is what somebody means by hardcore gamer, then no way. Nintendo shouldn't give up the average joe to satisfy somebody who is too closed minded to enjoy a game outside of the genre they really like. I'm not saying enjoying one genre is bad, I'm saying that saying that any game outside of the genre you like is bad. I can enjoy a classic VC game from pretty much any system, I can enjoy a new game, I can even enjoy a good party game every once in a while. I love wii sports resort. There aren't many genres that I just can't stand. Maybe Grand Theft Auto like games. I can't really say I like GTA, or many of Rockstar's releases.

But if hardcore gamer is just somebody who likes hard games then sure. I like a hard game, but not every game should be hard.

I prefer the word "serious".

HC for me.

@RedBlueSpot Does that mean the PS2 is no longer a hardcore console because it doesn't have HD output and a hard drive?

@Kid_A
Exactly!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but din't Nintendo release more "hardcore" 1st party games on the wii than they did on the gamecube? We haven't even had titles like Punch-out! or Donkey Kong on the last two "Hardcore" gaming consoles.

I think a lot of people fail to realize that it is themselves that have changed. Back when they were 10 years old, Mario might have been "Hardcore" to them. Just because now they're 27 and find Call of Duty to be more fun than Mario they think that Nintendo has changed for the worst.

video games these days are VERY contemporary

Heehee, I came in here to see a bunch of text walls and FPS/hardcore bashing and I was right!

@66
lol. So far I think I may have the biggest text wall.

I will personally love everyone here if they don't stop using the terms "hardcore" and "casual".

No sh*t right?

I remember buying, selling, and most importantly playing video games and not caring if Mario Party was casual or if Legend of Zelda was hardcore. Who really cares what games are classified as? As long as you have fun with the game, them being causal/hardcore shouldn't matter in the least.

yeah hey Nintendo,
recapture us with the virtual console and release better and sought after games...id care less about the games for the new wii

The Wii is definitely hardcore enough. It has three versions of Call of Duty, two versions of Medal of Honor, two Red Steel and two Conduit games, four Metroid games, Monster Hunter, Sin & Punishment 2, two stunning Mario games and more Tiger Woods games with impossible-to-control-unless-you're-a-real-golfer motion support than you can shake a stick at.

@SunnySnivy I get constantly made fun of from my friends who play Little Big Planet because I play Metroid. Also the don't believe that Nintendo can be better than PS3, even thoug it clearly is.

I think the terms "hardcore" and "casual" could really be called "part-time" and "full-time". If someone spends a lot of money on buying games and a lot of time playing games, you could call them a hardcore gamer regardless of the types of games they play or the system they play them on. If someone bought a Wii just to exercise with Wii Sports and plays it a few times a year, they could be called casual gamers.

To those of you on here saying it's the casual gamers who are playing CoD games, well what if those same people grew up with the NES and SNES? Would you say they were once hardcore but turned casual? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Some games may trend towards a casual market, but that does not mean that hardcore gamers don't play them too. What determines if you are a hardcore gamer or not is how serious you are and how much time you invest into the gaming hobby.

Playstation and X-Box are desperate when they start copying off of other systems people say are no competition to them. PSP-Who did the first handheld-Nintendo.

If you owned a Dreamcast, you're hardcore.

If you still own a Dreamcast, you're hardcore.

I'll always choose Kirby over CoD or any other game for that matter.

I think Pac-Man is more hardcore than Call of Duty and that's 30 years old _{I'm thinking like many of the peeps this generation, as you can see}

I'm the type of individual who buy games I know I will enjoy and take risks (I never thought I'd like Monster Hunter until I tried a demo on PSP). I'm a gamer.

I have to resort to calling my self just that because I'm one who appreciate "hardcore" games as much as "casual" games. I don't even care if the game is about farming (Harvest Moon, particularly) or getting together with friends and family to play a party game (man, good times with Mario Party). The problem this generation isn't all on the companies such as Nintendo when it comes to the games their dishing out- it's the people. There are so many close-minded folks who are too.... Hm, macho? I don't know. But they just can't play a game like Mario or Kirby because their self-esteem is sooo low that they have to play a game like Call of Duty or something to define their manhood. Those individuals are not by any means, "hardcore*.

They're a joke. Using video games to define your... manliness.. That's problematic. Lot's of these self proclaimed "hardcore" folks only play a limited amount of games.

That's not "hardcore".

Is Nintendo in the right entirely. Nope.
The Wii does have a broader appeal, and many consider the controls a "gimmick". Well, they are. In a good way. But that's just me. I love the motion controls- particularly if used right and to it's advantage. Nintendo can say "If only we reached out to 3rd party developers", but I'd say don't worry about that. They have to share the blame for underestimating and not taking advantage of Wii. You'd think developers these days like a challenge- but nope. It seems like lots just like everything being handed to them from the get go. And seemingly, it's the western developers (they know who they are in what I'm referring to particularly).

The Wii was a financial success. And it's my favorite console this generation. Not because of it's stellar online system and amazing graphics _{if you take that line seriously, go see Judge Judy}, but because it's just a different console that just feels familiar (cue the jokes of the grafiks looking like Gamecube lololol).

Seems like I survived this generation without having a PS3 or X360 of my own. I have high hopes for their next console but I'm much more excited of it's innovations more than how much raw power it has. Doubters will be doubters and haters will be haters.

I don't care. I want Smash Bros. 4

For me hardcore means, shooter fans. Casual gamer, gamers that play everything. Don't get me wrong. Those are my opinions based on that most shooter fans call themselves hardcore. If i were to select what each meant I would make them backwards to each other. Get what I mean?

I'd definitely call a hardcore gamer someone who constantly plays games and always wants games. Would you really call someone a "casual" gamer if they've logged over 100 hours on Wii Sports?

I s'pose hardcore is defined differently by different gamers. As long as Nintendo doesn't go for the soulless, isolationist games - that's fine. I would hope all type of gamesrs would have fun and a life outside their main gaming hobby. If its "NO" to either of thos then you have to ask yourself are you TRULY enjoiying yourself. Does it make you happy playing these wonderful games? I can't see how it can if you don't have much of a life outside gaming or if you take it too seriously.

Nintendo ought to provide a wide variety of games. In many ways they already do, as Kid_A has indicated. But there is really no need to go too far down the PS3 XBOX realm to be honest. Let them have the soulless cinema. We'll have the fulfilling, soulful gaming eh

Im more Hard Core then Casual and I like Nintendo more then Sonysoft

@ Ultra128
Exactly! If you are always playing games or thinking about games then you are plenty "Hardcore". Videogaming is my hobby and no one's gonna tell me I'm casual just because I don't own the most powerfull system.

why can't they play together? why not mesh them together into the ultimate super system?

^is really hardcore
never played an xbox or ps 3

@Kid_A Maybe I can help clarify a bit. Growing up on the NES games were brutally difficult. You didn't play a games to be challenged, instead if you played games at all you were challenged. Third party titles had a knack for being extremely difficult (Ninja Gaiden, Battletoads, Bionic Commando, etc), but even Nintendo's offerings were as well (Zelda II, Punch-Out, Kid Icarus, etc). Gamers enjoyed battling through the games to the end and learned to enjoy the difficulty of the games. They were core gamers who enjoyed hard games and suitably called hard-core gamers.

When Nintendo toned down the difficulty in their own offerings, these gamers who enjoyed the difficulty in the games found the games somewhat stripped of a core element that they enjoyed; difficulty.

New gamers don't understand this, and the older 'hard-core' gamers do, but most 'hard-core gamers' have turned away from Nintendo's offerings once Nintendo lead the charge into the casual/non-game markets, and this is the primary reason that this issue sticks mostly to Nintendo. Many of us that used to be 'hard-core' die-hard gamers now enjoy a bit of both casual and core games, and this is where I fit in. Many 'hard-core' do enjoy online FPS games, and the reason is because human opponents offer the ultimate challenge.

The perception that No More Heroes and MadWorld are 'hard-core' titles is another mistake. 'Hard-core' isn't about violence, graphics and language, it's about gameplay. New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Cave Story and especially Monster Hunter Tri are most definitely 'hard-core' titles on Wii.

Thomas is definitely right when he states that the Wii 2 shouldn't try to compete with PS3/360. If Nintendo tries to create a HD system that competes against them, they will loose! Nintendo doesn't need graphics and online capabilities, they need to keep themselves apart from the rest like they have with the Wii, and keep bringing great, clean games to our younger gamers and Nintendo fans, and continue to innovate in the way that only Nintendo can.

Great article Thomas.

I was reading this article from a gaming editor the other day, where he demands Nintendo to cater to the hardcore gamer with Project Cafe/Wii 2. He said that that's the only way the Big N can win HIM back. If they target hardcore gamers again.

Then he stars making a list of the things Nintendo has to do to win hardcore gamers back. Basically, this crazy editor wants Nintendo to become Microsoft. From imitating the 360 controller, to having a XBLA Live service with avatars and whatnot. And I call him crazy, because what is the damn point of Nintendo becoming Microsoft? If Microsoft already offers what he wants, he needs to stay with that company.

Besides, Nintendo is in the business of MAKING A PROFIT and not throwing BILLION dollars away, like MS regularly does. Thanks to their deep pockets.

Nintendo needs to continue CAPITALIZING on their Wii brand. Yes, they need to name the Project Cafe console "Wii 2" or "Wii HD" or whatever they want as long as they keep the "Wii" brand name alive.

They need to do this, because the Wii brand name has already been established in the media. Doing otherwise would mean that Nintendo would be forced to do a fresh start. Since they were #1 on the home console front, they do NOT need a fresh start (they would only if they were in last place or in the 'red'). But since they were leaders, they need to BUILT upon their recent success. To continue to cash in on the Wii's popularity (still big... 15 million units sold in their recent fiscal year is more than what Sony sold in the same time frame).

Think about what the Wii accomplished:

The Wii branched out to non-gamers and made gaming MORE mainstream like no other before.The Wii became part of the popular culture. It was the 1st game console featured at the OSCARS. It was part of many comedy skits on Saturday Night Live (the Alec Balwin one was priceless) and animated shows (South Park). It was accepted by many popular celebs in Hollywood and some of them even made some $$ out of it (mostly fitness gurus). The military forces used it to rehabilitate injured soldiers. Science projects employed the wiimote to manipulate/drive robots. And it was even used to train surgeons.

That and lots more is why Nintendo needs to continue the Wii brand name alive with their next system. Ride that gravy train Nintendo! While Sony and MS will need to do a fresh start with their next consoles. You can simply CONTINUE your success. As long as you cater to EVERYONE and not just to "hardcores" (actually, twitch gamers)

Just to clarify, I'm one of those gamers that is "in the middle". Ie. I play both casuals and hardcores....

I think Casual and Harcore gamers are really defined just by how much of an impact games have of their lifestyle. If they're a consistent gamer who takes up more time playing games, then they're hardcore. On the other spectrum, if gaming is just a simple hobby for them and they play games occasionally, then they're Casual. I don't beleve what type of games you play enters the equation at all if you ask me

I just want the new console to be able to handle the multiplatform games Sony and Microsoft get. It's not fun to see all these interesting games coming out for the PS3, 360 and PC while the Wii is ignored.

The only issues Nintendo can have that would make "hardcore" games scarce on their system is making their system unique in such a way that games from the PC, PS3, and 360 can't be ported normally (Wii), or require games for their systems to meet stupid requirements to make their system specifically more "kid friendly" (many Nintendo systems).

I agree with most of the people on this forum. I have been a hardcore gamer since the eighties and I see it as having video games being a main hobby. In the nineties I had subscriptions to NextGen, Nintendo Power, EGM, GamePro, Game Informer, and Mac Addict. I wanted to know as much as possible and was interested in the business aspect of everything. E3 has been a big deal for me since the early nineties. I don't think that people who play CALL OF DUTY and MADDEN are hardcore, they are the mature casual gamer. The hardcore gamer plays games for the experience; to see inovation in the art form - no matter what genre it is.

@Stine

In part, it's 'whoever made those games' fault. They should have made a Wii version from the ground up and utilize the features the console offers. It's too late for that now, though.

@komicturtle92

I get that you don't like the CoD games, but stop saying they aren't "hardcore" games. I think you are missing the point here and are being as biased towards Nintendo franchises as CoD fans are to those games. Just play games and have fun. I think anyone who puts in tons of hours into a CoD game is not a casual gamer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRPacQO1Ez8
sums up how I feel about these hardcore vs casual stuff pretty good

@Rathe There's nothing cool about being game savvy. Hardcore gamers are still considered nerds.

Whereas casual gamers tend to be clueless and very attractive. I for one embrace these strange new gamers.

To be honest, I'm not sure I'll ever be satisfied playing third party multiplatform games on a Nintendo console again. Even if the hardware is technically better, I see it as unlikely to buy Assassin's Creed 3 or GTA V on Project Cafe. That interest died with the Gamecube's transition to Wii. As a Nintendo fan, I'll never stop buying their platforms, but I don't know if they'll be able to recapture that "hardcore audience" in the way they'd want. I believe Cafe will be able to recapture the hardcore Nintendo audience who still love Nintendo titles but were set astray by the Wii. Apart from that... I don't know. I think the future of Nintendo is differentiating itself enough to warrant a purchase of their platforms in addition to one of their competitors. I've happily had a Wii and PS3 since 2008 and I don't think I would ever go back to having only one or the other's successor in the future.

Hardcore is such a varied term, it's never going to be on the same page.
Though it IS on the same chapter.
Hardcore in a general sense to me, no matter how you look at it is basically one who plays games quite often. They enjoy challenges, are usually quite skilled people, and blow through content like a flipping beast.
The latter is more my personal opinion, the former statement is one that most people can agree upon when looking for a definition.

Nintendo has its own loyal fanbase, and this probably will never change. These people are glued to Nintendo like bugs and light (without the painful shock....well....can we count E3 03' and 08'?)

The problem though that I think this article is trying to convey, is how it will suck in people who may have enjoyed mainsteam and in-depth Nintendo games in the past with traditional gameplay methods and control schemes. The same applies to individuals who currently enjoy the HD competitors.

One of the more obvious things to do, of course, is to get more 3rd party support. They make great games, just like the article said. It would be wonderful to have these types of games available to the platform especially to people who only own a Nintendo system, and thinks it's more trouble to look into another system just to get a different set of games.
This obviously would help a great deal.

But why do the same things the competitors are doing? Obviously this isn't the way to go. People that they want to attract already have a taste of that.
What they need to do is be innovative once again. This time however, mix familiarity with new methods that just make the player go "wow".
I'm not a game designer or developer, so I can't really express how I want these things to be. It's up to Nintendo to do that for me, to make me want to own a Nintendo System, and think "Why did I ever own a PS3/Xbox360?

Now of course, it also needs to have power. Pure unadulterated power. "ugh...just stick to your PS3 brah" Why? Is it so much to ask for Nintendo to be competitive in the power category like 10 years ago? Combining innovation with graphical/processing power, would be phenomenally effective. But then of course there is the price point that is the consequence of all this. I hope they find a way. All I want is a system to be on grounds with whatever Sony and Microsoft are cooking up in terms of power.
I say all of this as a method for persuading the hardcore crowd to jump to their new system. It's because these days the consumer looks for the fastest and the strongest device they can get their hands on.
Don't get me wrong, fun and exciting innovation outweighs this division, but it would certainly help to fortify the longevity of the new system.

Just another little piece of wishful thinking, but as far as first party software goes, everyone knows the charm that the Mario and Zelda series has, and the influence over other games of the same genre. But it would be very interesting to see Nintendo make new IPs for the more mature crowd, and even have more revivals of their old franchises in new ways (I'm looking at you Startropics, Mario RPG, Ice Climbers, Earthbound, etc.) Surprising, quality software is of course the central organ that keeps everything going, it keeps the system's heart pumping from start to finish, something that needs to be improved upon. You can look at the 3DS starting library and the last legs of the Wii as an example of how improvements can be made.
We don't need a huge of burst games from E3, though it was awesome, but I prefer a steady stream of products throughout the year, even though it may be a little too much to ask.

Then of course there is the online functionality of a system. Nintendo's is infamously poor in this category, and seeing a vast improvement would help bring in a large number of gamers in the long run. Even if you aren't personally a fan of online play, it plays an essential part of attracting the hardcore market. Cooperative or competitive, trophy hoarders to the more social aspects, it all plays a huge part in attracting a new mob of gamers that are attracted to this aspect.
Better yet, make this system different to the competition, more immersive, more incentive to go online and participate in different tasks. Include something new that will make the interested on-looking say "Wow that is really something, I have to get into that!"

Well anyway that is my two cents (or three...or four..maybe 25), these Talking Points are great discussion topics and obviously receive a ton of attention. Keep them coming! More more ^.

I think Pac-Man is more hardcore than Call of Duty and that's 30 years old I'm thinking like many of the peeps this generation, as you can see

Everything is more hardcore than CoD. Call of Duty is the same old rubbish every year but with new weapons, big whoop.

I want a game that is actually original, CoD is not, it's just the same old thing with a new lick of paint.

@Big_Gamer That is an awesome video and he gets it dead-on. The terms 'hard-core' and 'casual' have been stretched so far out of proportion by this generation of gamers that they have no meaning. DDR and Guitar Hero are most definitely games that can be considered as 'hard-core'!

@brooks

I never said they weren't hardcore. Ever.

And it has nothing to do with be biased towards Nintendo. I don't like CoD (as mentioned) and don't like how people think that because you don't play certain games, means that you aren't hardcore. That's just silly to me.

I do agree with you on one thing- playing games and have fun. That's the point of them, anyhow. Me saying Pac-man is more hardcore than CoD- that's my own opinion. Not saying it as a fact. That's something I personally believe. It's the same with people saying something such as Uncharted being more hardcore than Halo.

This is all just a result of the human instinct to categorize things, and to integrate these categories into social pressures. It's quite silly, and I just ignore it. This is one of the major reasons why I now frequent NLife more than IGN or Kotaku, etc. Just straight up games journalism with clearly-labeled editorials and such. I truly appreciate this.

@komicturtle92 (post 77)
YES!
Un-fortunately I have a couple friends that think this way.
I'm in the process of opening their minds up to the possibilities. I love Halo as much as the next guy, but that doesn't make Nintendo bad. It just makes them different. People spend too much time discriminating against people/things/ideas that are different. Just respect everything for its differences and we'll be good.
I would enjoy a PS3 or 360, but i would rather have a Wii because of the games that i can't play on PS3/360. And that goes both ways, but i don't feel like I'm missing out on anything as a Wii owner.
Now if Nintendo just makes a super console that is newly crazy powerful and awesome like the 360 was at the time (and still kinda is now), then we can have the best of both. "technically superior" and all the great stuff nintendo can give us.

E3 is going to be so interesting.....

A hardccore gamer is someone who buys tons of video games because that is their primary hobby. They don't have that right now. They are not all necessary only the 360/PS3. I don't own either, I own 52 Wii games. But i also don't like FPS and the like. I do miss my RPGs, and they can even fix that on Wii.

What they need to do is change their identity in order to win more of these kind of people over. And they aren't going to do that. They are going to appease everyone (or almost everyone) and make tons of money doing that.

What us, the minority core gamers that go to these sites everyday, want is of little concern to them. Because we are the minority. We will always be the minority, or at least until the video games fad dies out. So bear with it until the end, it's going to be awhile.

@WCWarrior Wouldn't someone who buys lots of video games be considered a 'Core' gamer? A core gamer is someone who enjoys videogames as a primary pastime. A hardcore gamer is someone who revels in brutal difficulty, no matter what system the game is on.

Honestly, the best way to find the worst in gamers is bring up this topic. Some love to label, and the amount of projection going on in just these comments alone has been astounding. You play what you like, let others play what they like and stop b*tching about them.

Honestly, if I could go back in time, I would make sure Nintendo never tries to use those terms and similar terms in..which E3 was it? 2004 I believe? I would do ANYTHING to make sure this "hardcore" vs. "casual" stuff never became so popular as THE excuse from people who aren't good at making arguments about gaming.

I have actually read all these comments. I'm exhausted..... I'm old school since com 64 and 2600. Can't remember the com 64 games that well cause I was 5 or 6 at the time. I didn't care I was having FUN.....Love pitfall.....I just play games. Period. Interesting reads though... did not know this was such a hugh issue for some people.... : )

In the later years of the nineties, the "casual" gamers were considered to be the ones who only played FPSs: games like Doom, Quake, and later, Goldeneye. Now, the FPS-only gamers (and I use the term gamer extremely loosely) are the self-described "hardcore" gamers. What the hell happened?

If anyone's a hardcore gamer, it's someone like me, honestly. Someone who's very knowledgeable about games, enjoys games of most genres (though preferring some is totally fine; I can't stand FPSs), and who can enjoy games of all generations and enjoys a nice challenge.

"Should Nintendo Try to Recapture 'Hardcore' Gamers?"

Hell yeah!!!

Everyone should be listening to The_Fox, for he is wise and his words are truth.

Agreed. IMHO it's just a term people use to make themselves feel cool.

@komicturtle92

Sorry if I misunderstood your original post. I have a hard time saying any game is more hardcore than another. When you think about it, Pac-Man could be considered the ultimate casual game. Anybody and their grandma could plunk in a quarter into the machine at the laundromat and play a few rounds while their clothes are being washed. In that sense it could be a casual game. But on the other hand, somebody could spend many hours playing it, honing their skills and mastering the game. So really, any game could be casual or hardcore, depending on how you look at it. As for people who say you aren't hardcore because you don't play CoD, I really don't care what they think. I play the games I want to play and they can play whatever they want.

I think its simply easier to throw out what we know "hardcore" should mean, and just roll with the understood definition. "Hardcore gamer"= plays mature rated games. Thats all it comes down to. So, going with that, It all comes down to does Nintendo have what it takes to get that crowd intrested.

Its hard to imagine that Nintendo could get the crowd that got intrested in gaming because of the Wii, to invest in another console. Its simply not there passion/hobby. Yes, they might have have picked up some people that make gaming a hobby, but I doubt it would be even half of the first time console buyers.

So then we switch to the PS360 crowd. Ya got the 12 year old kids that blast people over the internet because everyones tuff online. That comes down to if there parents would be willing to buy another console for them. If the parents are, are there friends going to get it also? Then the teen-adult crowd that wants mature games, mainly because nothing says good game like violence for violences sake. And cussing, cant forget that.

If there all able to get what they want , when they want it, it becomes an image factor.

"Ya got the Wii, wow, im sorry", or worse.

It's like if ya didnt have Nike shoes back when I was going to school.

So basically in my opinion, its more of a can they if they wanted to. Genrally the "Hardcore" crowd, also falls into the grapichs are everything crowd. For now, it seems like PS360 will always be leading the charge in that department.

I'd just like to throw some stuff out there yall can take it how you like.

First the definitions from dictionary.com with descriptions that fit the bill:
Hardcore - unswervingly committed; uncompromising; dedicated
Mainstream - the principal or dominant course, tendency, or trend
Casual - irregular; occasional

When people flag a company as casual or hardcore they completely overlook the meaning of these terms and how people fit into these rolls. A casual gamer is somebody who plays games irregularly and occasionally, aka the friend who only plays at parties or the family member that only plays 1 or 2 games every now and then. A hardcore gamer is the person who plays it all on whatever system, plays whenever they have time, and spends the bulk of there spare time gaming. The mainstream gamer is the person that plays only the big stuff, the trendy stuff, whats new, whats hot, and what the friends are playing.

Gaming over time has become bigger, more media oriented, and much more mainstream. Most people who are gamers don't exactly fall into the classification of a hardcore gamer or a casual, they're more mainstream. Even back in the days of Super Nintendo when it was the big console, there were plenty of mainstream gamers who only played platformers or what was big at the time. In this generation, the mainstream gamers don't like the Wii for the most part because its not whats hot, at least not anymore, 5 years ago they were all over it. The casuals flocked to the Wii because it was something completely new - just like they flocked to the Ipad and the Kinect. The hardcore however don't care about the system, they only care about the games and thats where most people who game, make games, and cover games are missing the point.

Yes, Nintendo needs to implement better online, storage, and power into their next console. No the hardcore gamers aren't gone - bad hardware doesn't stop hardcore gamers from gaming - neither do bad games. Angry Video Game Nerd anybody?

I also have to say, I am so glad I am not 12 years old again and arguing with kids at school whether I'm hardcore or not lol.

In this day and age, a "hardcore gamer" is someone who likes to play games from a first person perspective while they shoot people and scream into a headset. Meh.

@The Fox

What nonsense, I'm not projecting anything Daddy!

Some of you guys do need to take things with a grain of salt though.
I think these kinds of things are fun to talk about. But it's just a fun discussion when talking about the future of Nintendo's system.

The fact is if you're a fan of Nintendo, you're going to stay that way. Just like me.
But it's interesting to see the direction Nintendo will take based on their previous statements. I think that is why we are anxious, yet curious to how this will all play out.

@brooks, haha, Its funny how I hear people saying that other people say they're casual gamers because they play the Wii or how only hardcore gamers only play shooter games when I never experienced any of that!

what people mean by hardcore for other systems means shooters like black ops. has to have a lot of good shooters and have good online stuff to get people with a ps3 or 360 to buy it. oh and hd graphics

Lots of good interpretations of hardcore and casual, so I'll hit on other points that Nintendo as a whole could do better:

1. With this new system, Nintendo first and foremost needs to stop trying to maximize "slightly" better graphics/processing in a system and go next gen as far as they can w/o breaking the bank or gamers' wallets. If the top games of the PS360 are any indication, they should show that gamers are willing to shell out the bucks for a more expensive system and more expensive games if the experience is that much more immersive (graphics, sounds, as well as gameplay). Simply settling for an "ok" spec console doesn't satisfy the developers looking to maximize their creative game ambitions, further, consumers are not dumb and will look at stronger spec consoles vs. weaker ones and obviously say "this one is better" and follow suite to the very games that are waiting to satisfy them.

2. Give the Marios/Zeldas/Metroids a backseat for once to make room for more 3rd party support. We all know the 1st party IP's won't every be trumped, but give the 3rd parties and their games the advertising muscle to make sure for every good 1st party game, there's equally a good 3rd party game advertised right with it. Nintendo's 1st party stuff will always be what gamers look for, but it shouldn't be ALL that they look for, while the good 3rd party games only get mentioned in whispers or off on the side.

My concluding thoughts are, don't just push for necessarily hardcore or casual... if there's one thing that Nintendo "can" do better than the other systems, is integrate "everyone", and I mean the hardcore Nintendo fans (who have been there through hell and back), general hardcore gamer fans (who just want to get knee-deep in a great game regardless of system), casuals (who came on board w/ the lil white box that made casual gaming mainstream), kids (who alot of Nintendo's mascots are aimed at), and the teens, 20s, and even 30 somethings (that are core to the PS360's success). Hey Nintendo, remember when you used to call your system the Family Computer? Well, this is your chance to make a system that can sit in the living room of every household, and literally satisfy the WHOLE house for ONCE... make it happen, N.

It seems like Nintendo is doing well enough without catering to the "hardcore" crowd so I don't see why they should change that. I honestly think this hardcore label needs to be dropped.

@brooks

Eh, I'm just fed up with all this labeling crap this generation.

The whole "Casual vs Hardcore" started this generation and stemmed from them ever-so "popular" websites. When I was in elementary and first half of middle school, there was never talk of such a thing. We all talked about video games we liked. The only debate I've had was with two knuckle heads harassing talking about 360 and butting into my conversation about how I'm excited about the PS3 and "Revolution". That was in 7th Grade and really didn't feed too much into it and brushed it off within minutes. They called me kiddy and all that but it wasn't worth it to "feed" the trolls. I could have given them a proper reaction but it's wasted energy lol

This generation has been harsh but I look at the whole thing as a joke. People bash me for saying that I love Wii and that I think it's the best console out there. It's a huge epidemic if one were to think Nintendo's consoles are bomb- but not so much if you think 360 and PS3 is.

Then, people want me to get a 360 or PS3. My reaction: "Why?"

There aren't many games I find ever-so worth me getting another console. I'll just buy the game (such as LBP or whatever) and play that on my brother's 360 or PS3. I have access to those consoles and though I don't play them as much, I still enjoy some of the games they offer. I just don't see me purchasing any of the two any time soon.

Going off on a tangent- but as The Fox keeps saying- play the games you like and have a swell day. I'm hoping this whole Hardcore-casual crap has a blackout.

They should make fun games, is what they should do, and they already do a pretty darn reliable job doing that.

They should get that Kirby game I've waited for a long time out...

_{That should be their 1st priority!}

@MeloMan I totally agree.

The "Xbox Live Generation" has rather stagnated gaming as a whole, as they represent people who will buy an xbox for only COD or other FPSs, and not any of the other grat games in the catalouge. Thats why games like dragon age origins, which were great because of their old school flaws, lost their magic when they made a sequel that tried to take away the "flaws" of the previouse game and make it more acceptable to the FPS crowd, while losing sight of what made it great in the first place. Theirs nothing wrong with FPSs, but your missing out if thats the only game you play.

And for whatever weird reason, this topic is being played out on a number of diffrent sites like ign and gamespot. Kinda weird that its all conciding.

There are 2 types of gamers, those who adore Kirby, and those who merely like him.

Thinking about it some more, it seems to be mainly in the media where these terms exist (now mostly the internet). I've never encountered it socially. When my sister's boyfriend would come round with his Xbox we'd play Gears of War; no mention would be made of my 'casual' taste for Mario. Similarly, when I was a kid I was largely oblivious to the apparent Mario and sonic divide; I'd be excited to play Sonic when around my friend's house, and he'd be pleased to Mario when at mine.

Then again, I was completely ignorant of the whole Blur vs Oasis rivalry, so perhaps I'm not a good judge.

Has anyone here actually been called 'casual' or 'hardcore' in person?

The whole concept of hardcore and casual is completely null and void due to the fact that that it's difficult to establish anything that follows the criteria of either category. I feel that the argument should not be as to whether or not a game is hardcore as it should be to variety and quality. If I asked 100 gamers of the so called hardcore jurisdiction whether or not Call of Duty is hardcore, they'd either respond yes or if they're ignorant say it sucks or is the best game ever.
I own Call of Duty yet I don't play it with too much vigor or energy, or in other words, I play a hardcore game in a casual manner. This also goes with the argument that you can play a so called causal game such as WiiFit in a hardcore manner. If I spent 15 hours in a long WiiFit session, can I be judged as being a casual gamer even though I have spent 15 hours playing a game non stop? Please, the hardcore vs casual war is nothing but mindless bickering about the types of games and consoles one plays. I feel that Nintendo has helped our industry in a massive manner with the ds and wii.
I have some younger cousins that never gamed before until I introduced them to the ds and wii. If you look at them now they are on their way to being devoted gamers whom play games for what they were meant to. Think to yourselves all you so called hardcore gamers, can you complain that so casual games might be just gateways for the general public to playing along your side in a game of your liking? I think so and I really hope that you all do too.
So, the answer to if Nintendo should try to capture is a they don't need to. All they truly need is quality and variety. I may not have been a nes gamer, but I can still appreciate some history and when I look back at the NES, SNES and Playstation, I saw a bunch of games that were fun and varied. If you ask me, Sony and Microsoft have done little to drive incredible or outlandish projects with their teams. That is what has truly hurt our industry. At the end of the day, we just need to hope that we get console that isn't stagnating and drives creativity.

Of course, Nintendo should not forget the casual gamers base too! The exercise gamers, the wii sports players.

Ideal situation is to have devs like Crytek and Valve (etc etc) on board, hopefully their online system will be flexible enough for Valve to do their Steam whatever like Portal 2 is doing on PS3.

Hopefully its not wishful thinking that Ninty will release more of their fit and sports games to be used with Wii peripherals, let people prolong their device duty.

And perhaps for the ladies, finally have a permanent vibrate mode on that Wiimote hehe ... just don't use my Wiimote

@Slapshot
Thanks, I think that actually cleared up a lot of my confusion. Although, by your definition, it seems to me that the Wii has probably the most hard-core first party games since the SNES, at least as far as challenge is concerned.

I think I speak for the majority in saying that this is a great article, Thom I also realized that I never really responded to the question at hand. What I think is this: when it comes to the Wii 2, Nintendo needs to do what it's been doing with the Wii and DS--they just need to do it better.

Because really, that's the point of a new console, anyway--ideally, a new console is a system that does everything better than the system before it. For Nintendo, this means continuing to create diverse experiences that cater to a wide variety of audiences, while improving basic functionality. More horsepower, more robust online capabilities, etc. They also need to get better at promoting their online stores and 3rd party software. Nintendo knows this, though, and they've said as much recently, so I have no doubt that the Wii 2 will be an impressive system

I'm not interested in seeing an online achievements system, standard dual analog controls or Call of Duty on the Wii 2. If I wanted that I would play a 360 of PS3.
I want to see what Nintendo can do with their franchises on a new, more powerful console, where there are no limits to what they can do or create, and games that do not have to be "watered down" for use on technology that is technically a decade old.

It's not about recapturing the hardcore audience, but rather recapturing the hardcore developers. The ones that put every effort into their games to make sure it's AAA.
Unfortunately they won't make seperate versions of their games for different hardware specs, you need to be at least on par with your competitors in the power stakes to get third party support.

As far as the gamers themselves go, Nintendo don't need to and probably won't concern themselves with what's hardcore and what's not. They just make games for everyone.
So long as their new console has something really cool that the others don't, people will buy it just like they did with the Wii. They've just got to make sure they follow it up with some solid software that makes the most of it.

i hope the new system doesnt make me use dual analog controls all the time. i like the way the wii controls are now.

the whole hardcore casual thing doesnt matter to me. if the new system (Super Wii) has hardcore games i dont like i'm not going to buy them anyways. i only buy games that i like. so third parties can release all the first person shooters they want it doesnt effect me. i'll stick to what i like.

i'm so glad i'm not in high school anymore and dont have to put up with those "hardcore" gamers. i hated those guys telling me i was lame because i had a ds and not a psp. saying the wii wasnt a real system and there HD system was. screw those guys. hardcore, casual or whatever i play games so i'm a gamer.

i game therefore i am

I honestly don't think Nintendo need to do anything. If they make an awesome system that more powerful than PS3 and the 360, not only will it have the 3rd party games that are on those systems it will also have Nintendo games which is an awesome selling point.

Nintendo and their 3rd party creators should keep the Nes and SNES-era in mind : Innovative games that didn't rely on glorification of violence. I.O.W : Nintendo should NOT become a Sony or Microsoft.

On my most recent visit to the local Gamestop, I noticed a couple (late 20s, early 30s) perusing the Wii games (this never happens, I think I'm the only one to buy Wii games where I live). This couple was asking the clerk at the counter for advice on what to purchase. They were looking for what they called a "meaningful" title. The clerk (who I had never seen there before) responded with comments that pretty much define what the perception of the Wii has become:

"The Wii has some good games if you're a kid. I'd suggest a 360, lots of good hardcore titles there." - Gamestop Clerk

I guess this is how I look at it. Gamers should be subjective when choosing titles for their own library. If you like Kirby, buy a Kirby game. If you like Killzone, buy Killzone. However, it is important for gamers to also look at gaming as a whole objectively. You may not personally like the concept of being a fluffy pink ball and you may consider doing so childish. However, if a game provides meaningful, deep gameplay, should it not be judged fairly? In other words, the problem isn't what Nintendo should do. The problem is with the gaming community and the perception that some popular gaming outlets (IGN, X-Play) are giving to gamers. Objectivity is of the utmost importance in life in general as well as gaming.

Back to the couple: I suggested Epic Mickey and MH3 (they owned all the first-party titles I suggested). Chatted with them a little while, pretty cool people. Got a few StreetPass hits from them, too!

Wii did capture the Hardcore gamers. But it then lost them to higher-spec systems which offered more hardcore gamers more of the games they were after, while Wii game producers tried to get away with endless lightgun games.

Wii had/has some great games hardcore gamers love. Zelda, Mario, Resident Evil, Okami, Brawl. The ones it has it did very well - thats why so many hardcore gamers above are standing up in defence. But the higher-spec hardware won out - Wii just couldn't deliver a GT5 or a full blown CoD. Wii2 needs subtle changes, keep innovating, keep going on the Wii direction but offer the ability for developers to give the more some more of the hardcore fans the experience they are after. It'll be all for nowt if a year after Wii2 PS4 jumps in with another step up.

@146 - the UK comedian Richard Herring did a bit on one of his podcasts about a gamestore clerk who refused to sell him CoD on Wii as it was against his human rights to play it on Wii when he could get it on PS4 or X360!

I love my Wii still. That little box still has more personality than any other console I've ever owned. But it has lost a large proportion of the gaming community, who have gone over to the bigger systems. Those gamers though will all be keen to see what Wii2 offers. I just hope it doesn't get blown immediately away by PS4.

@Rathe

That's a horrible story to hear, yet I suspect that it is very common at Gamestops and similar stores. It's absurd that anyone still expects good advice from the young guys working these places.

That only further convinces me that Nintendo should go the Apple route: set up their own stores (not just the one in NY, although that one is a great prototype) where they can present products on their own terms, with plenty of demo stations and actual useful advice (well, the Apple stores tend to give terrible advice, but you get the point).

This generation is too spoiled, people. Today, graphics are everything to them. They do not feel the soul within the games, and are becoming an homogeneous kind that only likes shooting in HD/3D... or whatever on the same style. I grew up playing my N64 and had my mind blown up by some awesome games in that console... that's why I'm still a Nintendo fan. They have good games, utopic games. In my humble opinion, a good console needs everything: soft and hardcore games... the hardcores I'm saying are not "SHOOT AND RUN AND KILL", but games that are tricky, have a huge gameplay, with fantastic worlds and a very good gameplay... Graphics are not the problem, people who were born before 2000s know very well that graphics are a bonus if the game is epic. What I really expect for this next console: Colorful buttons in the controllers, because the Wii controllers were too much simple, and colors are a Nintendo characteristc. We need games that can blow our minds up and have some great gameplay, and I think the GCN controller-style should be back, because it was a really good controller... Nintendo does not need to looks like Microsoft or Sony, because I feel something different in Nintendo... of course, technology evoluted and Nintendo could be up to date with it, and HD games in that new console will be great and Xbox/PS3 players can now suck my... Wii 2

@warioswoods: I agree wholeheartedly that Nintendo should set up their own stores. It would probably be seen as too much of a financial investment by Nintendo's investors however (and we all know those with money run everything, look at the United States government). I would argue the DS's money printing feature would help offset this cost, though. insert that amazing photo of Iwata and Miyamoto printing money on a DS

For some reason I decided to drop by the IGN website today, and I stumbled upon this article: http://wii.ign.com/articles/117/1171664p1.html

That shamble of an article is what's wrong with many gamers today, and only reinforces my last post further. IGN blatantly states that "Nintendo's been largely off the map and out of the minds of hardcore gamers for at least five years now – and that's being generous to say the least." Crap like this corrupts the very essence of what gaming is.

Unfortunately, many people seem to think that "hardcore" games are ones where you kill, and destroy, and kill some more. I'm talking about FPS games. Now, I'm not saying that FPSs are bad, but, they are changing peoples views on what a "hardcore" game is. People that play FPS games and nothing else on systems like the Xbox 360 and the PS3 groan when you mention something like Mario and the Wii. They always say "Oh dude, the Wii is SO ! That piece of crap is babies, bro!" and they say things like "Mario is like, the gayest thing in the universe." Frankly, that really rks me. It irks me to a point where I want to say something like "Oh yeah? You think that games like Mario are , huh? Well, how about you go and get 100% completion on Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Galaxy. 1 AND 2. Then tell me if you think that Mario is gay." and then, they're gonna say "DUH, WHY CAN'T I JUST SHOOT'EM?" These people also think that if a games does not have good graphics, it sucks. Wow, that is a pretty fair judgement, considering that you have probably never even played an 8-bit or 16-bit game. Also, all of those FPS-shoot-kill-destroy-pull-trigger-make-house-go-boom people would probably fail to an awesome degree in an RPG where you actually have to solve puzzles and make decisions other than throwing a grenade. To all of those people, Nintendo is a joke because they only make "wuss" games like Kirby and Pokémon. To them, Sony and Microsoft are the only decent gaming companies because their games have great graphics and whatnot. Okay, do the games challenge your brain or make you think of ways to strategically think of a way to overcome your opponent other than "I'm gonna shoot him in the face".

Again, I don't think ALL FPSs are bad, I mean, c'mon METROID IS AWESOME! But, I do think they have blurred the vision of many gamers and have cauused them to think that the only respected gamers are ones that can make inappropriate gestures over a corpse that they have just killed.

I think its hard to truly say what hardcore is because I play games for hours a day and none of them are fps.

I did not want a Wii. I had multiple original X-Boxes at home linked for Halo and Forza LAN multiplayer nights, played PC FPSs, and still kept my PSOne busy, there is even a working ColecoVision around here somewhere. I had little interest in any Nintendo franchise, which I considered mostly kid stuff, with the possible exception of Metroid. But then I became a dad, and when I looked at the PS3 and X360, there weren't a lot of titles that I could play with my daughter, so I "settled" on a Wii to at least be able to share gaming with her.

I was wrong. I have over 100 WiiWare titles and about 80 retail games at the moment. What blew me away was the fantastic game design of titles such as the Metroid series, SMG, Zelda series, and NSMBW. Later, I found other gems: Okami, Fragile Dreams, Rune Factory Frontier, etc. There is so much originality in so many Nintendo titles, even performers which I generally detest. First party titles tend to have very tight controls, and make gaming an experience of physical extension of one's self.

Nintendo is a bit of a different world in gaming. It has a sense of humor about itself (Paper Mario made me laugh aloud many times) that is mostly absent with PS3/x360 gaming. I miss not having the latest Fable/Halo/GOW/Elder Scrolls game, but not as much as I thought I would. I mean this in a good way, but Nintendo is kinda the weird, fun, successful uncle of gaming that also happens to know how to make friends with everyone...almost. It IS a different kind of gaming experience.

Actually it's pretty simple, really. A hardcore gamer loves video games. A hardcore gamer is somebody who will rip through the latest Gears of War, but will be just as likely to fire up his 2600 and try to beat his last score in megamania. Or fire up his wii and play some Bit.Trip. And then try to beat the nasty japanese version of Super Mario 2. And then maybe relax with some Diablo 2 on his/her netbook. Hey! I think I just described myself! The whole 'graphical prowess' argument eludes me. Is Super Mario Galaxy not a breathtaking game? Have I missed something? Are 1080 lines of resolution necessary for the blocky retro look of Bit. Trip.? I also point yet again to the massive power consumption and heat concerns of the 360/PS3. That doesn't bode well for the longevity of the hardware at ALL. As we've seen from the numerous hardware failures when these systems are used extensively. For most of gaming's history, the power demands of gaming consoles remained relatively flat, despite the increasing capabilities with each generation. The PS2 requiring a mere 14 watts of power to run. As does the Wii. The 360/PS3 require a monstrous 200 watts of power consumption, to the point the POWER supplies need fans. That's more power than 3 incandescent light bulbs! What will be the power demands of the next gen?

All this FPS phobia seems strange to me. Contra, Metal Slug, Gunstar Heroes... What do you think these games would be if they were 3D?

@Number_6 I had that family dilemma too. I decided to tell the children that video games were just for grown ups.
@Merriam-Webster Hardcore can never be defined. Never!

Now here's how I see it:

The whole idea of being casual or hardcore has been created with the last generation of home consoles. The reason we even use these terms is marketing.

Video games have broadened their audience drastically and in order to make it happen, they needed appealing consumer ideas. "Are you a coca cola light or a coca cola zero person? -Oh, I don't like those, I drink original Coke!"
If the consumers can identify themselves with the product, they can feel that "this product is made for me". Of course hardcore and casual were there a long time before, but that is just made them easy to grasp.

I don't know what ends it served, but the marketing idea of having hardcore and casual was created for separating players by the products they choose to buy.

And of course the images of these "gamer groups" have not been thoroughly clarified, because the companies wish everyone to see themselves belonging to whatever they are representing.

Nintendo was once hardcore during the days of the NES, and SNES.

Then with the N64, Nintendo Gamecube and Wii. Nintendo was no longer hardcore. With motion controls and the Wii console reaching out into new markets. It worked but that was something Nintendo could only do once. As Microsoft and Sony have adopted Motion controls for their videogame machines. So we already have HD wii consoles. Which are just made by Sony and MS. Nintendo has begun to lose the casual crowd. So making another Wii console just in HD is not going to work in the 8th Generation.

Lack of 3rd party support has hurt the N64, Gamecube and Wii. If the 3rd party developers are not happy with Nintendo system. Then they won't bother with making games for it. So if Project cafe can be a console with decent processing power, and proper on-line. Something which Nintendo has never really had. Aside from a few experiements. SNES. Gamecube. Or ungainly on-line attempts DSi/DSXL and Wii. The friend codes failed.

Nintendo has got to embrace on-line. As a new controller is not going to keep working. The cafe conroller sounds "iffy" right now. Casual gamers are just not going to buy more than 5 games. So Nintendo has to reach out to Sony and Microsoft gamers. The best way is to make a decent go at on-line gaming. Nintendo was very slow to switch to Disc based games. Just as slow to enbrace proper on-line gaming. That is the best way to reach out to people in 2011-2012.

Wii's 100% fine but nobody gives a hoot about making 2D games for it.