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Topic: Why do so many people hate Indie Games?

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WaLzgi

61. Posted:

There really is no definitive definition of "indie" aside from its namesake independence from a major company

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DefHalan

62. Posted:

WaLzgi wrote:

There really is no definitive definition of "indie" aside from its namesake independence from a major company

That is how people use it but people use the term "indie" incorrect all the time, just to mean a shorter or smaller game. Indie is taken from Independent which would mean a company develops and publishes a title by themselves.

Edited on by DefHalan

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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S3OL

63. Posted:

I'm probably a little late to the part but I honestly can't get enough of indies at the moment. I absolute love them. I'm always waiting for new ones to release and sales and what not.

I'm especially looking forward to Steamworld Dig, Shovel Knight, Tetrobot and co and another that I can't quite put more finger on. Though I can understand why people can see them as an annoyance because there are plenty of them nowadays.

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WaLzgi

64. Posted:

I do wish we had an alternative term for smaller-scale games. Maybe..."Single A" games ;)

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SMEXIZELDAMAN

65. Posted:

spizzamarozzi wrote:

Funny because I was talking about this with a friend of mine who works for Sony Playstation. My supersecret theory is that gamers nowdays don't want to just play the big games, they want to play the big games that are relevant 'that' specific moment they choose to buy them. They want to bring their AAA game home as soon as possible (noticed the dangerous popularity of pre-orders??), play it and share their experience with million of people who did the same thing. Big budget games have this kind of "community" quality - you know millions of people are going to get them and rave/rant on the internet and a lot of players want to follow that, or be a part of that - it's a process of tension and release, in a sense.
Now, indie games may turn out better, but usually they don't kick up that kind of storm big releases do. GTAV was the defining event of 2013 - Shovel Knight is probably better but doesn't feel like capturing these times as well as GTAV. For all laypeople know, it could have been released 20 years ago.
Gaming on consoles has become more and more of a social activity, and as many social things, it's more about the "significance" than the actual quality.

**this supersecret theory also explains why I keep finding two years old PS3 games in the bargain bin for one sixth of their original price.

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DefHalan

66. Posted:

WaLzgi wrote:

I do wish we had an alternative term for smaller-scale games. Maybe..."Single A" games ;)

But then how would you differentiate between Child of Light, Bit.Trip Runner 2, Puzzles & Dragons, Rayman Jungle Run, or Star Command? It gets really hard to define games by budget or content.

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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unrandomsam

67. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

unrandomsam wrote:

"So if a Nintendo development team makes a game that Nintendo publishes it is Indie."

That is not true at all. Nintendo is a major publisher. The definition is whether it is made without the publishers money or influence.

The only corners cases are people like Treasure or Wayforward. (Shantae or Ikaruga are Indie but Smurfs 2 or Wario World are not).

Nintendo is self-publishing if one of their development teams is making it. It does not matter how much money a company has. All that matters is the company in charge of development is also publishing the game for it to be considered Independent, they company is not relying on another to fund or develop the game. Wayforward, Treasure, and Renegade Kid are examples of indie developers that work with publishers at times.

Nintendo is the equivalent of a Major Label (I think the term came from Music therefore it cannot be considered indie ever).

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DefHalan

68. Posted:

unrandomsam wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

unrandomsam wrote:

"So if a Nintendo development team makes a game that Nintendo publishes it is Indie."

That is not true at all. Nintendo is a major publisher. The definition is whether it is made without the publishers money or influence.

The only corners cases are people like Treasure or Wayforward. (Shantae or Ikaruga are Indie but Smurfs 2 or Wario World are not).

Nintendo is self-publishing if one of their development teams is making it. It does not matter how much money a company has. All that matters is the company in charge of development is also publishing the game for it to be considered Independent, they company is not relying on another to fund or develop the game. Wayforward, Treasure, and Renegade Kid are examples of indie developers that work with publishers at times.

Nintendo is the equivalent of a Major Label (I think the term came from Music therefore it cannot be considered indie ever).

So if an artist creates their own label and it becomes big, that artist (who is still making music) is not an independent artist anymore? Or are they just successful enough to produce their own music without needing a Major Label?

EDIT: Not a great example above but I think it gets the point across.

EDIT2: Just because Nintendo or Valve has a lot of money doesn't mean they can't also be independent, in fact it is what helps them stay independent.

Edited on by DefHalan

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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unrandomsam

69. Posted:

The amount of money isn't the thing that defines it in Music I don't think. It is with no ties to it was the big 5 Major labels (Now I think there is only two).

People seem to love defining things to mean as much as possible I like the opposite.

AAA is worse if it is supposed to be from Wikipedia

"One "A" is given to games that are considered to be successful (critics or reviewers give it a perfect, or almost perfect score), another "A" is used when a game brings "innovative Gameplay" (a gaming characteristic so unique that differentiate the game from all the rest), and finally, the last "A" defines "Financial Success" (game sales that generate a huge profit)."

Then basically none of them are (And it cannot even be defined in advance of its success due to the financial part).

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unrandomsam

70. Posted:

(a gaming characteristic so unique that differentiate the game from all the rest) almost never seems to happen with AAA games either.

Perfect or near Perfect (Say 90 or above on Metacritic) that hardly ever happens with AAA games either.

Edited on by unrandomsam

“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”

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kkslider5552000

71. Posted:

trying to define indie is the most pointless endeavor possible

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DefHalan

72. Posted:

I completely agree AAA should not be defined that way. It doesn't make any sense. I am not a big fan of trying to differentiate games by their budgets. People judge straight to DVD movies the same way they judge The Avengers. Genres are more important than how much someone paid to make something. If people want to use Indie to describe a game with a small budget then they fail to understand what independent means

kkslider5552000 wrote:

trying to define indie is the most pointless endeavor possible

Indie has a definition, people just use it incorrectly

Edited on by DefHalan

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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spizzamarozzi

73. Posted:

I thought with AAA we're referring to the scale of the project, or to the budget - the same way, when someone mentions "Hollywood Film" it's referring to a certain kind of production with certain kind of themes and audience as their target.

I agree that "defining indie" is kinda pointless, unless we want to get into semantics and say that independent developers are only developers who work with their own funds and receive no input from major labels and so on and so forth which might not be correct, because "indie", like in music, has become more of a quality of an approach than anything.
At some point, everything that was in the chart started being mainstream, and everything not in the charts (and not aiming at being in the charts) was indie, which again, is incorrect, but proves the fact that indie artists aimed at making niche music, that they didn't care about the charts/the money and they were willing to take huge risks.
Many music artists started out as indie and then got signed by huge labels but kept making records retaining the same approach to music - some are still considered indie even though they are distributed by Warner Brothers.
However, indie games, like independent music records, might share a few points in common that have to do with the nature of being independent itself - you'll never see a 60 hours open world 3D indie game simply because that has a cost that indie developers cannot pay (same way, why no indie band in the 80s could sound like Pink Floyd? Cos that equipment has a cost).

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skywake

74. Posted:

unrandomsam wrote:

The amount of money isn't the thing that defines it in Music I don't think. It is with no ties to it was the big 5 Major labels (Now I think there is only two).

Not even that. "Indie music" like "indie games" tends to refer to a style of content more than the way it was produced. In the same way as with games indie initially meant independently produced but quickly changed to refer to music that that "isn't top 40 sounding". And because it was an 80s term it was specifically a counter movement to the music that was popular during that decade.

So even in the 90s "indie music" was on major labels and in the top 40s. Kinda like the 90s equivalent "alternative music". It was an attempt to do "indie" properly but it ended up meaning non-pop music. Umbrella terms don't work, they have a mind of their own.

So we've gotten to the point where these guys, massively popular track, independent label, indie sound. "Indie":

These guys, major label even if indirectly, huge, firmly top 40 stuffs. Still "indie"

These guys, much smaller. Independent label, smaller budget, well outside of the current "top 40" sound. Not "Indie":

........... and if you asked me "spot the indie" I'd agree with the consensus about those three. So if you ask me if Child of Light is indie I'd say yes. Because at this point it's not about how the thing was made. It's more about how it was distributed, how big the budget was and what your expectations are. NES Remix is "more indie" than the stuffs that High Voltage studios produced for the Wii were for eg.

Edited on by skywake

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DPad

75. Posted:

Shocks1776 wrote:

There are a lot of cool indie games, but there are also a lot of crappy ones. It's a huge mixed bag.

I find this to be the case with all gaming in general.

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DefHalan

76. Posted:

@skywake

So if we want to turn indie into a genre (or something like that) how do we put all games considered "indie" into a genre that doesn't exclude or include anything that is "indie" There are so many factors that I can't begin to understand what it could be. Do you have any idea of how we classify "indie"

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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OptometristLime

77. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

kkslider5552000 wrote:

trying to define indie is the most pointless endeavor possible

Indie has a definition, people just use it incorrectly

DefHalan wrote:

So if a Nintendo development team makes a game that Nintendo publishes it is Indie.

This really doesn't convey what indie means except that it is a self-reliant endeavor, which is patently obvious. What the term means now, is something that you would probably have to ask a lot of people, and take on a case by case basis if you want to be accurate.

Edited on by OptometristLime

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DefHalan

78. Posted:

OptometristLime wrote:

DefHalan wrote:

kkslider5552000 wrote:

trying to define indie is the most pointless endeavor possible

Indie has a definition, people just use it incorrectly

DefHalan wrote:

So if a Nintendo development team makes a game that Nintendo publishes it is Indie.

This really doesn't convey what indie means except that it is a self-reliant endeavor, which is patently obvious. What the term means now, is something that you would probably have to ask a lot of people, and take on a case by case basis if you want to be accurate.

I agree to find a definition for the way people currently use "indie" it would be very difficult, probably impossible.

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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skywake

79. Posted:

DefHalan wrote:

@skywake
So if we want to turn indie into a genre (or something like that) how do we put all games considered "indie" into a genre that doesn't exclude or include anything that is "indie" There are so many factors that I can't begin to understand what it could be. Do you have any idea of how we classify "indie"

Well it's not really anything specific, you could probably endlessly debate what games were included and which ones aren't. In general though I'd say that a game which refuses to follow what the best selling games are doing and is made on a small budget is "indie". That definition makes the most sense.

So you look at the most popular games ATM. The Pokemons, GTAs, CoDs, FIFAs, Assassin's Creeds and Watch Dogs. They have big budgets, they're made for a mass market, they can't really experiment too much. Those are the gaming equivalents of "pop music". Indie would be the stuffs that isn't along the same lines. That would be my definition if it's to become something less about where the money for the game came from.

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GuSolarFlare

80. Posted:

I just asked the defninition because of Steamworld Dig...
when I got it, it didn't look like the usual indie(I actually didn't even know it was indie) and only when I found out that it actually was indie that I've started warming up to independent developers(not that I hated them before, I was just hesitant to spend my money on indie games)

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