Topic: Nintendo is Lazy and Doesn't Care?

For what it's worth, the Koopalings are NOT named in the NSMBW manual. I just checked. I agree that it really doesn't matter to new gamers, either. I took my copy to a friend's house last month, and he had a blast even though he hadn't played ANY Mario game before or after Super Mario Land on the original Gameboy! No names for the Toads or the Koopalings were needed for him.

Oh yeah, and if you're going to argue that the Koopalings have personality and that's a sign that Nintendo put effort into NSMBW...you might want to recall that their personalities were created 20 years ago. None of that was new to NSMBW in the first place, so it COULD be argued that using them at all was "lazy."

So basically, this argument boils down to how lazy Nintendo was with the FAN SERVICE. Even that's flawed, because it is my belief that using the Koopalings provided great fan service (I sure got a kick out of it). So the main characters have no expressed personality...at the end of the day, I don't care.

I would disagree that Toadsworth is not a character in and of himself. He has a distinct personality, and M&L:PiT makes it particularly clear that he is himself, even when he's younger. Yes, that's a so-called "spinoff," but when you get into discussions like these, it just doesn't make a lick of sense to discount them in the debates. Especially when you consider that Toadette is ONLY in spinoffs. And as far as I know, she has no personality whatsoever.

As far as the other Toads are concerned, NotEnoughGolds is right: They're all pretty much the same EXCEPT for Super Mario Galaxy. I really have no idea why they put Toads with personality in that game. Not to say I don't like it (because I do), but it's quite odd. Probably should be accredited to that other guy who works on these games and keeps pushing to add more story...I forget his name. Anyway, with the exception of that little troop and Toadsworth, ALL Toads are generic. No reason to complain that Blue and Yellow are as well.

woah @WaltzElf on the previous page. Dude is a legend, f'n ey!

1. There is no story. So who cares?
2. Why would he start using generic Toads? Also, who cares?

I mean, really, these are not in any way obstacles to using the princesses. Or if you prefer, he could use Rosalina instead of Daisy. The man's got options.

They don't need a story to begin with, but if they did want one, a royal Toad could be kidnapped, or Princess's cake could have been stolen, whatever. No one cares why Mario is jumping over holes. It'd take them all of a couple minutes to think of something new.

Here's a Nintendo-specific website parroting the same nonsense...except they take it a step further and say that NSMBWii is a "must-have" game, but that you shouldn't buy it because there is better stuff to buy and because it sends the wrong message to Nintendo. Seems even less logical than the IGN view:

http://www.nintendojo.com/editorials/view_item.php?1260945992

Too bad, though I don't visit there often, I've always liked Nintendojo. Been visiting irregularly for many years.

Dude, if I only bought games that everyone on the internet agreed were excellent, i wouldn't have any games at all. If NSMBW is 'settling for mediocrity', then i don't want to be... er... not settling for mediocrity.
_{or something like that :3}

@Token Girl: that was awesome .

@NotEnoughGolds: I'm not talking about Toads in general, I'm talking about the Toad they have been using as a playable character in many games.

@Stuffgamer1: I mean that they choose to use Koopalings with there different looks instead of a colorswap, but did exactly that for the two playable Toads.

@Adam: Mario and Luigi doesn't need text because they are established characters. In Luigi's Mansion Luigi was exactly the whimpy character he was in that ad I showed a couple of pages back. Constantly crying out "Marriiioooo."

But maybe why Nintendo didn't add princess and give a valid reason, is another reason why it's "lazy". I think dress physics (even if it's a joke or not), body shape, abilities eg is a poor excuse. It was possible in SMB2 and it would add some extra layer of depth to play with. Sure the story would have been different, but why not?

BTW, in post 288 you ask exactly the same question I've been addressing: "Why would he start using generic Toads?" Except for the "Also, who cares?" of course .

An ad is not part of the game. They were not established characters in-game for a long, long time. I'm not sure why this continues to be unclear.

You can't say they don't need text because they are established characters when there was once a time when they were not established characters and still did not have text, plus many, many people have played NSMBW who have never played the old Mario games. How would they know? So in that way, they remain generic characters to this day, not that that's bad.

Example: You act as if the ad was seen by every man woman and child, but for the majority of my childhood, my family, friends, and I played the game and did not know anything about this amazing ad of yours. So for most people, no, there was not any personality to these characters. Nintendo could have chosen to add text in the game to develop them, but they chose not to because it is clearly not important to the game or their goals.

An advertisement has to give them character; a video game does not. Chances are Miyamoto had nothing to do with that advertisement anyway. I would hardly go to the advertising department for canonical information on the Mario series rather than the creator himself.

Also, I don't think it's the same question. I use it as a rhetorical question because Nintendo has been using generic characters for years to great effect.

Why do you make such a big deal about the ad? I just said that the way Luigi acts in Luigi's Mansion was the same as in the ad. Nothing more.

But we are having a huge (fun though) discussion about basically the same problem. You are wondering what the real reason is they didn't include Peach as a playable character, I wonder what the real reason is for Nintendo to add two generic, bland, faceless, nameless toads as playable characters next to Mario and Luigi. But where you don't care that much for it, I have a bigger problem with it. Still doesn't matter gameplaywise of course cause it's still a great game.

Which Toad as that? I don't remember playing as a Toad in any game except SMB2 (even then I always used Luigi).
You mean the Mario Karts and and Partys? What makes you sure it's the same toad in each one? They've always been generic identical Toads, so to say that it's always the same one is completely ridiculous.
If Blue Toad and Yellow Toad were in Mario Kart Wii, then would you be fine with having them in NSMBW, since their personalities were "developed"?
What if they were in Sunshine? Oh wait, they were. Or Galaxy? Oh wait, they were in that too.

Besides, it matches real life.
Your best friend plays as Luigi, and the generic Toads are played by generic friends.

I really want to read this thread, but I won't be. I couldn't even make it halfway through the article before thinking...

F*** off Matt!

_{and this is from someone who has followed (and liked) Matt since 64.com :/}

@NotEnoughGolds: I do believe that that is one and the same Toad (especially in the Kart/Party games with Toadette), but I have to admit that it's a little bit iffy in the platformers since there are more Toads that look like him (red dots/blue jacket) but appearently that's the look all the Toads have that are the closest to Princess.

I'm not making a big deal about the ad. Quite the opposite. You keep bringing it up as if it is evidence that the characters have personality, despite the fact that out-of-game context is not context at all for the vast majority of players and it cannot be claimed as the creator's intentions because he certainly had no involvement in Nintendo of America's advertising. Seemed to me like you were making a big deal about it, but oh well.

As for your other evidence, Luigi's Mansion is a very, very late example. You're ignoring the point that Nintendo went for a long time before that game without any in-game characterization, despite ample opportunity via text and short in-engine "cut scenes." And yet no one complained about these games, despite their generic, palette swap characters.

Luigi's Mansion is also not a Mario Brothers game. It is a totally different kind of game that relies heavily on atmosphere and some narrative to push the game along. These qualities are unnecessary in a 2D side-scroller. Nintendo was clearly trying to evoke the feeling of playing identical characters from the previous games in the series. I don't think of the princesses as any different. They have different color hair and dresses, not much else.

The reason I would like to see them in the game is quite different from yours: I hate the ditzy, helpless princess stereotype, always being captured by the otherwise inept bad guy. Princess can run and jump just as well. Let her play, and come up with a less outdated "plot" if one is needed at all. Mario 2 USA's plot was better than this, as generic as it was.

NSMBW needs to be viewed as a Super Mario Brothers game, not just any Mario game. It's unfair to compare the game to any game with Mario or Luigi in it because these games have different goals and different requirements to fulfill these goals. Some games require personality in every character; some actually work better without it. New Super Mario Brothers follows a strict tradition from the previous side-scrolling Mario games, and to great effect. We may want the same characters in the game, but for different reasons. Palette swaps and lack of personality are A-okay with me, just as they were for the rest of the world for the SMB1-3 and SMW.

Is that... a pig bowser?

Like I said, I just said that Luigi acts the same in Luigi's Mansion as in the ad. And I only brought this up because you didn't remember Luigi speaking in Luigi's Mansion. Not about people needing the ad, just re-read that particulair post. I also didn't brought up Luigi's Mansion but that's a different game, even though they work out the characters more so having a different view when starting the game, as a fan, not new players. It's funny by the way how a discussion about the two generic toads lead to Luigi, how did we get there?

I agree on the Princess part, but if Nintendo really wanted to stay close to Super Mario Bros, it's unescapable, like you said yourself. But I do liked how in the manual, even Nintendo is aware of this fact "Because of my most recent kidnapping" . That was a really nice touch.

@Adam: it's Midbus from Bowser's Inside Story. He does go head-to-head with Bowser a few times. :3

Staying true to the series' roots does not mean creating an exact copy. Otherwise, they'd have just released the VC games on disc. They can update that which needs updating and that which doesn't. We don't have take-turns multi-player anymore, which was a staple of the series. For a modern game, I think NSMB could really use heroes of both genders.

The multiplayer in NSMBW just wasn't possible back then (see a news post here a couple of days ago). I did like the multiplayer in the Donkey Kong Country serie. Me and my sis played that all the time and was fun.

Well it isn't an exact copy, I never said that. They just changed everything but the main storyline. Probably to keep the story that we grew accustomed to there and for players who haven't played a Mario platformer before it's all new. But I do agree on a female characters though. You know my preference .

You completely misread that. I know it's not an exact copy. That's what makes a sequel a sequel. But I am too hungry to finish explaining.

Speaking of food, this came up last time I played the game. Is it cannibalism for a Toad to eat a mushroom? It just feels wrong.