'milking' Mario...the big 3 games, Metroid Zelda and Mario, that all you got?

Meanwhile we have an industry where replaying the same 3 cards in your hand console in and console out is status quo. (GTA anyone???)

So where is the consistency there? Also, when Nintendo DID make creative and origional franchises that could pull the wagon better than the old warhorses, people cried foul, and invented a casual narrative to discredit them....I tell you what, as a NES traditionalist, that breaks my heart. Here are my questions?

Is it impossible for the new generation to appreciate NES style gaming on wii?

Is it impossible for the new generation to appreciate games that give no time or thought to CG and stroytelling?

Is it impossible for the new generation to appreciate games that do not fall over themselves to be counter culture, negative culture?

I truly wonder these things, I feel a man apart on internet forums.....

Anyway, the press didn't invent a "casual narrative." Nintendo embraced it. They're apparently okay with this. I don't see the need for a million sequels, but I don't think the comparison to the NES is completely accurate. NES games were tough. Wii games very much aren't. The lack of difficulty makes their main franchises quite boring to me. I don't think they're really milking their main franchises that much anymore now that we're generally seeing one sequel per series on each system lately. That seems like an acceptable pace to me. I just wish these offerings would be as good as their NES counterparts.

WIi Games are very tough, that is incorrect Adam.

Going pro on all 5 Wii SPorts games is much tougher than beating Twilight Princess or RE4.5 or even Zelda I or Super MArio Borthers 1, 2, or 3.....

Completeing 100 levels of Tanks on Wii Play is quite tough as well, you will also have a hard itme if you are playing multiplayer against me.

Getting a VR of 9999 (if you are not a hacker) on Mario Kart Wii is very tough.

Getting an S rank on every Super Excite Race on Excite Bots or Excite Trucks is not easy at all...

Orbient is no push over. Nor is Rotohex, Nor is Cubello. IF you have a good high score on the endless modes, it is tough to break that.

So, I do not htink you have a leg to stand on, when it comes ot game difficulty, I could go on and on with examples...you are perpetuating a myth/

I find the majority of Nintendo titles this generation to be quite easy as far as difficulty goes. Not that I'm complaining, as sometimes I like a nice, easy, and enjoyable gaming experience after spending so much time in front of these brutal bullet hell shooters.

Corbie, have you completed my check list then? I can add to it, if you like.

I would postulate that in the NES era you had fewer games and devoted more time to individual titles, and have stronger memories of them. Gamers today often :

1. Quit playing something when they get stuck and move on to the next game.
2. Play easy games and call them hardcore because they have violent story.
3. Use cheat guides and online forums, etc the SECOND they get stuck, instead of gutting it out.
4. Watch 'the ending' on youtube and call it good.

Agree?

Well that depends on the type of gamer, really. My neices for instance will play a game like crazy for a day or two and then it goes back in the case and never sees the light of day again. Yet I have a few friends who won't even touch another game until they've completely ran through the one they're playing, and when I say ran through I mean found every single thing to be found and done every single thing that could be done.

Being a gaming journalist, I don't have the luxury of spending as much time playing games for fun as I used to, as I'm generally playing a game to review it. That means it has to be played differently than I'd play it if it were just for fun. Some I can finish in the alloted time, and some I cannot. But generally those I don't get to finish on the first run through, I don't get to finish period. Sadly.

I've done most of that, actually, with no problem. Going Pro in Wii Sports is a cinch, especially compared to Zelda 1 and other NES games (I don't know why you compared that to Twilight Princess or Resident Evil 5, which are obviously not NES games, and are quite easy anyway). None of that compares with finishing Zelda's second quest, Metroid, Zelda II, or Mario 2 (JP), Kid Icarus, etc. Also, you are listing a bunch of optional tasks that the majority of people will not even pursue. By the same token, I could say it is extremely difficult to play Wii Music for an hour without throwing up. Yes, it'd be true, but it's not the primary goal in playing the game.

When it comes to something that is pure opinion, I can't be "incorrect" and I don't need a "leg to stand on." I'm not perpetuating a myth, but you are certainly perpetuating your own opinions as facts.

I beleive it, and I can see how that could cut both ways. I think some game journalist tend to get burned out and jaded because of that, and as a direct result, I am burned out and jaded on them - (not you, in general, I do not know you enough to say yet wink)

Adam - your opinions cannot be facts than either. Because I don not agree with what you have said, and nothing is 'optional' To master a game and defeat its difficulty is our litmus test, and those games stack up very well in that department.

I know my opinions aren't facts, but unlike you, I'm not treating them as facts, telling people they are "incorrect" or don't have a leg to stand on.

Fact 1: More people buy easy games than hard games.

Fact 2: Wii games [are easier than] Gamecube games [are easier than] N64 games [are easier than] SNES games [are easier than] NES games.

Yes there are exceptions, but this is the rule. The gaming industry understands fact #1 so as a result we have fact #2.

In general NES is harder than SNES, for sure. But I do not think SNES is harder than any of the other systems listed. Certainly not Wii. It just depends on the games you play, for one, and how good you are at them....

Let's stick to discussing the post rather than the poster, folks. I don't like firefighting thread topics.

Well, clearly not, the Virtual Console has given Wii owners the opportunity to appreciate NES games and apparently they have, because Super Mario Bros. 1&3 are consistently the highest selling VC games (in the UK at least)

Pacman has very little narrative and is one of the most downloaded VC games. It also has very basic graphics.

Again, SMB, SMB3, Pacman.

I understand that this is in the Wii thread section, but I think VC needs to be taken into account when considering what today's gamers do or do not appreciate.

Ah, but Cowlaunch, I am talking about new games TODAY that are released with those self same properties.....see, those 'old' titles are generally 'grandfathered in' to some young minds - but not all....

Can they handle NES game design on todays games? I think - with exceptions often not! They would rather buy into a hardcore/casual identity crisis than judge games on gaming....

What do you mean by "NES game design" then? Do you mean two-button control? The new Paper Mario game has that. Do you mean action concentrated on one screen at a time? Toki Tori has that. Do you mean basic platforming? From what I understand, the newest Wario Land game has that.

I'm not really sure what "selfsame properties", specifically, you are referring to. The "NES experience" was a wide-ranging one taking in all genres, lengths and difficulty levels. Without allowing people to discuss specific games as CowLaunch did, there's not anything left to say.

By NES game design I mean :

Wii Sports. A fixed camera 3-d game of skill. No story, no frills, no narrative. Arcade action.

Essentialy the divide between arcade and narrative games.....by reverting to virtual consoles sales - he misses the point - this is about Neo Nintendo not Nitendo Classica.

How does "A fixed camera 3D game" have anything to do with NES?
And NES games had stories. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest were both popular games.

The exceptions that prove the rule....ick, RPG's - but of course story has needlessly wormed its way well beyond that genre, has it not??

Fixed 3-d takes away the neccesity of camera control thereby influencing game design to a more arcade friendly style.

So your question is about "arcade style" games, not "NES style" games, correct? Otherwise I'm still not sure what you're asking.

And I don't think Adam's examples are "exceptions." A huge portion of NES games made some attempt to tell a story. (Mario Bros. has no story, but Super Mario Bros. does.) The exception would be the games that DON'T attempt any story whatsoever, and most of those were arcade ports.

The line between "hardcore" and "casual" isn't drawn in regards to storytelling or narrative or difficulty, it's drawn in regards to production values, gameplay depth, attention to detail and the amount of tangible rewards given for time invested in the game.