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Topic: Why is the Wii U's library so lauded?

Posts 61 to 80 of 308

Nicolai

UGXwolf wrote:

Now you want a rehash? Let's talk about Galaxy 2. THAT'S a rehash. Yoshi and new levels. A couple new power ups. That's all. Same goes for NSMB2, though I'd argue the Wii added multiplayer (and unintentional homebrew) and that's a very big change. U added a fifth player which is not as big a change, but still more than a rehash.

NSMB.U also adds challenge mode and a sizable Luigi DLC pack, where NSMB.2 has coin rush mode, which is awesome :3

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Bolt_Strike

UGXwolf wrote:

You took that comment way too setious for you to be anything but blind to the core idea that video games aren't objectively good. Theyre subjectively good. The not-so-subtle differences between Returns and Tropical Freeze and the utter worlds of difference between NSMB and 3D World that you'd definitely notice if you actually played the games you're criticizing may not seem like much to you, but to those of us that actually enjoy these games, the difference is day and night. Just like to me, Metroid Prime and Echoes look like similar or even the same game. Even if you explain what's changed, I probably won't be impressed because I've only played Prime and never did go play the others. (Which I'll more than happily do, when I have the money to get Prime Trilogy on my Wii U and nothing higher up on my backlog.)

They are objective elements to this issue, though. Regardless of what you think about DK or Mario, the mechanics in Metroid make much more of an impact on the gameplay because they affect what you can and can't do and you need to use those abilities to progress. So when they add new abilities to the game such as Prime did (and there were plenty there in both Prime 2 and 3 that weren't just reskins of another powerup, like the Seeker Missiles and Gravity Boost in Prime 2, or the Hypermode, Grapple, and Ship powerups in Prime 3). In the same vein, Mario and DK rarely add new moves, and none of the recent additions impact the game at the same level as Metroid. So no, you can't really say that Prime can be seen as just as subtle as Mario and DK.

UGXwolf wrote:

Now you want a rehash? Let's talk about Galaxy 2. THAT'S a rehash. Yoshi and new levels. A couple new power ups. That's all.

That's fair, although I'm more forgiving of Galaxy 2 because it's a sequel on the same hardware as the original and therefore less to add, as opposed to the 3DS and Wii U games which are on new hardware and yet they still play similarly.

Bolt_Strike

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UGXwolf

I'd argue that items in Metroid that give you new abilities as they're utilized in Prime 1 is little more than a glorified colored key. Well, kind of, anyways. In many cases, you need this item to go this direction. You need this weapon to defeat this enemy. You need this visor to see this obstacle. At it's core, Metroid Prime, and indeed just about all games are nothing new. If you wamt to go deep into mechanics, you'll quickly learn that all mechanics are just variations of existing mechanics. The feel of a game is important for thia exact reason. The lonely feel of Metroid is what makes the exploration and combat shine. Not the mechanics. The challenging feel of DKCTF is what makes the mechanics work so well, but again, you keep ignoring the fact that MULTIPLE PEOPLE WHO'VE ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME HAVE TOLD YOU. The mechanics in all of these Platformers you're bashing actually do make a very big difference.

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The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

Bolt_Strike

UGXwolf wrote:

I'd argue that items in Metroid that give you new abilities as they're utilized in Prime 1 is little more than a glorified colored key. Well, kind of, anyways. In many cases, you need this item to go this direction. You need this weapon to defeat this enemy. You need this visor to see this obstacle. At it's core, Metroid Prime, and indeed just about all games are nothing new.

You're oversimplifying it. The only time it really works that way is when you need an item to open a door, otherwise using a specific powerup to defeat an enemy or clear an obstacle isn't the same thing because it involves a different action than opening a door.

Bolt_Strike

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UGXwolf

A different action? You mean like shooting? Because that's how you open doors in Metroid.

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

Bolt_Strike

UGXwolf wrote:

A different action? You mean like shooting? Because that's how you open doors in Metroid.

You're not taking effect into account, that distinguishes the different actions. Also, not every obstacle requires you to shoot.

Bolt_Strike

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UGXwolf

No, you're right. Some require you to run and jump and roll. The effect, however, is generally the same. It allows you to keep moving toward the end goal.

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

Kaze_Memaryu

UGXwolf wrote:

No, you're right. Some require you to run and jump and roll. The effect, however, is generally the same. It allows you to keep moving toward the end goal.

If you wanna boil it down to the laconic version, this isn't far off. But not just your ways of progress are extended through power-ups, but also the playstyle choices. Prime allows for a lot of approaches, and not just the power-ups matter, but also the ability of the player. Chozo Ghosts are a good example for that. Technically, you can beat them at any point due to the Power Beam already working on them. But both the Charge Beam and the Super Missile allow for new approaches without forcing them. If you're trigger-happy, you'll just keep spamming that Power Beam. If you're reseource-aware, you'll stick to charged shots. If you're the brute-force or impatient guy, you bust some ghosts with the Super Missile. And Chozo Ghost aren't the only ones. Almost every enemy has a variety of ways to be killed, all of which are dependant on how you play the game. This level of freedom is part of what makes Metroid Prime (or most Metroid games in general) so much fun.
But the way you boil it down is applicable to pretty much every game in existence with a main objective: move forward until you reach it, and if something's obscuring your path, get whatever aids in getting back on track. In that sense, it's kinda pointless, but your thing ultimately.

Edited on by Kaze_Memaryu

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Haru17

UGXwolf wrote:

The lonely feel of Metroid is what makes the exploration and combat shine. Not the mechanics.

Woah, woah, woah, I hardly agree with B_S, but Metroid Prime is much more than atmosphere. Mechanics like the morph ball, morph boost, magnet ball, grapple, drain grapple, frost missiles, echo visor, and different ship functions layer into a mechanically complex game.

If you're being reductionist then all Zelda and Metroid puzzles are lock and key, but it's more complicated than that, especially in a 3D environment. A lot of the gameplay is in finding the correct room, mechanism, or set of interactions to progress, not to mention that you need to do that to find the hidden power ups too.

Edited on by Haru17

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JaxonH

Idk, there's nothing new in videos games. It's ALL been done before. Unless you have unique hardware that opens possibilities not previously accessible, everything is just a reorganization of something that's been done a million times before.

Which is exactly why being "new" really only has weight with games taking advantage of unique hardware (Kirby Rainbow Curse, Wii Sports Golf)... those games have new concepts and new mechanics. But new doesn't mean squat anyways. The bottom line is fun. Idk when the conversation took a wide left turn and declared that "new" and "innovative" trumps fun, because new and innovative means nothing if the game isn't fun, and "being a rehash" means nothing if the game is incredibly fun. It's all become just another way for cynics to dismiss good games, not on the basis of not actually being a good game to play that's fun, but rather simply based on arbitrary merits and boxes that don't have a check mark next to them. Oh, the concept isn't new? Automatic dismissal.

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UGXwolf

@Kaze_Memaryu That was kinda my point. Ultimately, any game can be boiled down to win condition and lose condition and in terms of video games, certain combinations of button presses that fulfill said win condition. To imply that one game is more complex than another in this sense is a false truth. What I'm trying to point out is how any game can become formulaic. At least in challenge-type games (platformers, rhythm games, fighting games) that equates to a hard skill in = results out formula. The game makes you, the player, get better, rather than proving the avatar so you feel better, but now we're sneaking iver into "reasons people play games" territory, where it's easiest to say that one is not fundamentally better than the other. The point I think we should really be taking into account is how the changes and innovations you make have to be geared towards the audience. In games like Metroid Prime, the aesthetic change is more immediately noticeable, but ultimately changes little more than where you can go. In a Platformer where every ability is available from the start, the mechanical changes will be subtle but extremely pervasive in what players can and can't get away with and how levels are designed to work with thise capabilities.

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

skywake

iKhan wrote:

I'm nitpicking? You are the one randomly excluding games because you personally feel "they shouldn't count". I'm pretty much consistently counting every Nintendo IP on this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_products_published_by_Nintendo#Wii) excluding casual games because you seemed like you wanted to do that (which, if you ask me, doens't make much sense anyway, as a game is a game).

Well lets be brutal then..... all of the games on that list of Nintendo published games excluding region exclusives, eShop/WiiWare titles, bundled titles and repackaged DLC. But I had to include Wii Sports Club because naturally I included Wii Sports.

Launch:
GC: 4, Wii: 3, Wii U: 3

First year:
GC: 8, Wii: 13, Wii U: 9

Second Year:
GC: 8, Wii: 7, Wii U: 7

Again, as I've said multiple times, they're about even in terms of volume. The key difference is as I have repeatedly said that the Wii U hasn't hit the highs their previous consoles did with a couple of titles. But they've more than made up for that with consistency. The usual and expected Mario Kart and Smash have been fantastic versions of those games. Arguably the best so far. Similar things can be said of Pikmin and DK. Captain Toad is actually a pretty interesting idea and Bayonetta 2 is the best game I've played in quite a while.

So I didn't mean to be rude but you were kinda nitpicking the list rather than listening to what I was saying. I was trying to show that the Wii U Library has just as much content, doesn't have the same peaks but does have consistency. It wasn't a full list, I didn't intend it to be. To quote myself from the first post:

skywake wrote:

The volume is about the same on each, what's different is the overall quality. The Wii U hasn't quite hit the highest heights that the previous two systems did, I'll give you that. It hasn't had a Galaxy or Prime type game. [...] What it has had though are a decent number of great versions of games.

Point made? .. point made

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Bolt_Strike

JaxonH wrote:

Idk, there's nothing new in videos games. It's ALL been done before. Unless you have unique hardware that opens possibilities not previously accessible, everything is just a reorganization of something that's been done a million times before.

Which is exactly why being "new" really only has weight with games taking advantage of unique hardware (Kirby Rainbow Curse, Wii Sports Golf)... those games have new concepts and new mechanics. But new doesn't mean squat anyways. The bottom line is fun. Idk when the conversation took a wide left turn and declared that "new" and "innovative" trumps fun, because new and innovative means nothing if the game isn't fun, and "being a rehash" means nothing if the game is incredibly fun. It's all become just another way for cynics to dismiss good games, not on the basis of not actually being a good game to play that's fun, but rather simply based on arbitrary merits and boxes that don't have a check mark next to them. Oh, the concept isn't new? Automatic dismissal.

That's the thing, games become less fun the more they repeat. This is an inherent part of entertainment, you can't repeat something over and over again and expect it to still be fun.

And no, everything hasn't been done yet. A lot has, but not everything. And frankly, repeating a lesser used concept would be better than just mindlessly repeating the same thing over and over again.

Bolt_Strike

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UGXwolf

@Bolt_Strike I think Jaxon's point can be summed up well by a quote about the staleness in the music industry. "Every song is really just a combination of the same twelve notes in different repeating patterns."

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

Bolt_Strike

UGXwolf wrote:

@Bolt_Strike I think Jaxon's point can be summed up well by a quote about the staleness in the music industry. "Every song is really just a combination of the same twelve notes in different repeating patterns."

There's a difference between that and repeating entire verses, though. We're seeing too much of the latter nowadays.

Bolt_Strike

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UGXwolf

You're such a broken record. For the last time, if you actually played the games, you'd know it's not the same thing, but you haven't, so your entire argument is invalid, anyways.

A nifty calendar (Updated 9/13/15)
The UGXloggery ... really needs an update.

LzWinky

I guess I should turn this around on its head.

Okay, Bolt_Strike is correct about a few things. Games in certain genres can be a bit repetitive. However, this can actually be a good thing. When I buy a platformer like Donkey Kong Country, I expect it to be similar to a DKC game.

While some games can mix things up with new ideas, keeping the formula is what makes these games very appealing. Yes, new ideas need to mix things up, but do not fix what is not broken! Many gamers have this comfort zone that they want to stay in. Yes, some may branch out and try new things, but they still have preferences in what games they play.

Look at Sonic the Hedgehog. There are good ideas in some games, but Sega keeps trying to make the next game so different. This is a textbook example of where change can go wrong. This is why Sonic has become a joke despite being a respected icon at one time.

Why do people buy Mario games? Because they want more Mario! Why is Super Mario 3D World so critically acclaimed? Because it follows the Mario formula, throws in some new ideas, and delivers a spectacular package as a result!

Why are Metroid games so popular? Because each set of games follows a formula. Metroid is an exploration game that creates a lonely atmosphere. Why change this?

Regardless of your tastes, Bolt_Strike, platformers still have much appeal. As a whole, the genre has so much variety that it's difficult to pick out two platformers that are the same (aside from being in the same series).

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King_Stannis

Please, stop doing that.-MorphMarron

Edited on by Eel

King_Stannis

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Bolt_Strike

TingLz wrote:

I guess I should turn this around on its head.

Okay, Bolt_Strike is correct about a few things. Games in certain genres can be a bit repetitive. However, this can actually be a good thing. When I buy a platformer like Donkey Kong Country, I expect it to be similar to a DKC game.

While some games can mix things up with new ideas, keeping the formula is what makes these games very appealing. Yes, new ideas need to mix things up, but do not fix what is not broken! Many gamers have this comfort zone that they want to stay in. Yes, some may branch out and try new things, but they still have preferences in what games they play.

Look at Sonic the Hedgehog. There are good ideas in some games, but Sega keeps trying to make the next game so different. This is a textbook example of where change can go wrong. This is why Sonic has become a joke despite being a respected icon at one time.

Why do people buy Mario games? Because they want more Mario! Why is Super Mario 3D World so critically acclaimed? Because it follows the Mario formula, throws in some new ideas, and delivers a spectacular package as a result!

Why are Metroid games so popular? Because each set of games follows a formula. Metroid is an exploration game that creates a lonely atmosphere. Why change this?

Regardless of your tastes, Bolt_Strike, platformers still have much appeal. As a whole, the genre has so much variety that it's difficult to pick out two platformers that are the same (aside from being in the same series).

That's true, Sonic is certainly the opposite extreme when it comes to change. But there are examples of games that add new things without gutting the entire formula. The Mario collectathons (except for Galaxy 2, which recycles Galaxy's gameplay) are a good example, because they use different settings and different game mechanics associated with those settings. But the core gameplay is still the same, explore the level, collect Stars/Shines, and unlock more levels. I'd like to see this approach come back, they did just enough to keep things interesting but they didn't quite reinvent the wheel.

Bolt_Strike

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skywake

If we're going to go on about "following a formula" then we can't ignore the fact that the vast majority of games follow in the footsteps of only a handful of classics. Metroid-vania is something people say for a reason. The same thing exists with Mario and Zelda and a few other genre-defining games like Half-Life and Counter-Strike.

I mean if you go and try to learn a bit of how to design a game? They'll show you something like this:
UntitledUntitled
Not because everyone's a huge Nintendo fan but because those two screens are classic examples of great game design. Every game developer would know those two screens. It's no surprise that they'd end up following that "formula", particularly at Nintendo. And the other thing they'd inevitably do is try to create varied environments. What better example of that then Super Mario Bros 3?

So when you complain about Nintendo "following the formula"? Well what else are they going to do? Every game from Super Meat Boy to Arkham City to Dark Souls is following that formula. They teach you how to play the game. They make it simple and low risk first but require it for progression and then they build up to a boss battle or something where you need to link multiple skills. They give you different often well defined zones. Sometimes as overt as SMB3, sometimes more subtle. But it's all there.

All games that aren't experimental indie titles are at least a little bit formulaic. And most of them are singing from the NES songbook. Because Nintendo pioneered a lot of this stuff.

Edited on by skywake

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