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Topic: What if Link is gender neutral?

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LegatoSkyheart

81. Posted:

No matter how many times I look at the new Link, I still see a dude.

LegatoSkyheart

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shaneoh

82. Posted:

LegatoSkyheart wrote:

No matter how many times I look at the new Link, I still see a dude.

Same

shaneoh

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WhiteNoise17

83. Posted:

skywake wrote:

As I said in that other thread. I want a more involved story for the next Zelda game. A more involved story requires a more defined relationship between the characters. It's much harder to do that when Link is even less defined than he was in Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess. Yes Link could have been gender neutral in earlier games but this is now. I want the series to progress and improve in terms of story not stagnate.

So yes, Link could be a female character and I'd be fine with that. However I can't see Link being a gender neutral character as a good thing. You'd have to have a really thin story that doesn't even try to hint at how Link feels the other characters. I don't know, would this scene in Twilight Princess for example have had as big an impact if Link was gender neutral? I always thought half of what made this scene was the hinted relationship between Link and Ilia

plenty of examples in Zelda where the gender of the characters made an impact on how the game played

Actually the scene was explaining the greed and corruption of hylians using link and llia but I get what your saying

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theblackdragon

84. Posted:

Didn't we already have this discussion in the Gender Bias thread? To sum up my arguments there:

(a) Almost every Link we've played is a brand new person born however-many years after Hyrule was saved (or not saved) last. We're (or I'm) not asking that history be rewritten to have established Links suddenly turned female, just for Nintendo to give us the option to choose what fits the player best going forward. It's a new Hero of Time, it's a new adventure. The comparison to Samus keeps coming up, and it doesn't apply — she's not reincarnated between games. Link is.

(b) Miyamoto himself has said in the past that the reason they keep Link a silent protagonist is to allow the player to better project themselves and their own character onto Link. Offering options to non-males (females at least would get us rolling) would greatly aid the immersion process. I used Halo: Reach as my example of how it's already been done by the competition, a largely silent protagonist is given a male or female form and voice in all cutscenes and gameplay depending on the player's settings. Reach is a great game, the Halo series absolutely does not suffer for having had a gender-customizable main character in one of their titles, and I was able to listen and play and feel like that was me on the screen fighting aliens and doesn't afraid of anything-ing. I can never do that with a Zelda game.

(c) For the one of you here and maybe two of you in the other thread arguing that there would be same-sex relations if Link were possibly female, there's never any real interaction between Zelda and Link, he never 'gets' the princess. When do we see anything on screen beyond shy glances or her telling him he has to save Hyrule? He may as well be gender neutral in all his current incarnations for all the passion and romance he's never shown, so I don't see where 'well he's kissed a princess!' holds much water. Link is always 'hey imma kill this oktorok now' as Zelda spends 90% of her time cooped up in a tower or a castle or sleeping forever or otherwise incapacitated, lol, so it's not as if she'd be guaranteed another kiss in another adventure.

(d) And for those who may be hung up on the name (there was one in the other thread, just covering bases here), Zelda hasn't always been named 'Zelda'. There is past precedent for her name not being set in stone. If Nintendo wants to offer 'Link' and 'Linka' as default names for their provided options, it's not like it'll never have been done before.

In fact, the only good argument i've seen so far against offering a choice was the one where there were a few users who wanted an honest-to-goodness story out of the next Zelda game, no more bland silent protagonist but a robust male hero with dialogue and personality and princess-saving romance and whatnot. I think it'd be nice if they were able to write one that went both ways, Link's playable portion and Zelda's playable portion (she could still have those Sheik skills~) as two star-crossed lovers forever tasked by a looming evil they must keep under control else all will perish in fire and darkness. But if Nintendo continues on with Miyamoto's vision of a 'bland' Link, there is no reason he could not be a 'she' in future games, so I for one would very much appreciate a choice in gender for my protagonist. You play your file as a male if you prefer, and she'll be female in mine.

[Note: i wouldn't mind playing as Zelda and in fact have suggested that myself in the past. However, being forced to play as her still isn't really a proper choice.]

Edited on by theblackdragon

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Dreamz

85. Posted:

theblackdragon wrote:

[Note: i wouldn't mind playing as Zelda and in fact have suggested that myself in the past. However, being forced to play as her still isn't really a proper choice.]

What would be really fun is if they made it so that you could play the game from two different viewpoints, as either Link or Zelda. I don't mean it just changes what character you play as - the game is completely different for each characters. We saw a bit of this at the end of Skyward Sword, where we saw flashbacks from Zelda's point of view. Taking that to the next level and creating an entirely separate games with different paths and goals would essentially give us double the game.

Edited on by Dreamz

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Miss_Dark

86. Posted:

1. who cares which gender he is?????
2. he is obviously male alright?

I only think it's important that games like mario kart, super smash etc.. that have multiple playable characters have enough female characters to pick from; It would be kinda stupid if they only had male characters, that's no variety at all and it would feel like they're neglecting their female audience. But in games like TLOZ? The sidekicks are female? :p A female main character would be cool in a game like this but I don't see the extra value of it.

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MetalK9

87. Posted:

Miss_Dark wrote:

1. who cares which gender he is?????
2. he is obviously male alright?

I only think it's important that games like mario kart, super smash etc.. that have multiple playable characters have enough female characters to pick from; It would be kinda stupid if they only had male characters, that's no variety at all and it would feel like they're neglecting their female audience. But in games like TLOZ? The sidekicks are female? :p A female main character would be cool in a game like this but I don't see the extra value of it.

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theblackdragon

88. Posted:

Dreamz wrote:

theblackdragon wrote:

[Note: i wouldn't mind playing as Zelda and in fact have suggested that myself in the past. However, being forced to play as her still isn't really a proper choice.]

What would be really fun is if they made it so that you could play the game from two different viewpoints, as either Link or Zelda. I don't mean it just changes what character you play as - the game is completely different for each characters. We saw a bit of this at the end of Skyward Sword, where we saw flashbacks from Zelda's point of view. Taking that to the next level and creating an entirely separate games with different paths and goals would essentially give us double the game.

I like you. This is kinda what i meant by having a Zelda game with part of it played through as Link and part as Zelda. :3

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unrandomsam

89. Posted:

Bowsers Inside Story did work pretty well with that type of thing.

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Jaz007

90. Posted:

shaneoh wrote:

LegatoSkyheart wrote:

No matter how many times I look at the new Link, I still see a dude.

Same

It's because people are trying to see something that something there. I never would have even thought people would come up with this whack stuff if I didn't frequent here.

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HappyHappyist

91. Posted:

How about gender changes nothing and it's still Zelda? Thank you, good night.

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2Sang

92. Posted:

What if zelda was a girl?

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SuperMalleo

93. Posted:

Untitled

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Jim_Purcell

94. Posted:

2Sang wrote:

What if zelda was a girl?

Well she's already been a boy...

Untitled

Jim_Purcell

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shaneoh

95. Posted:

theblackdragon wrote:

Didn't we already have this discussion in the Gender Bias thread? To sum up my arguments there:

(a) Almost every Link we've played is a brand new person born however-many years after Hyrule was saved (or not saved) last. We're (or I'm) not asking that history be rewritten to have established Links suddenly turned female, just for Nintendo to give us the option to choose what fits the player best going forward. It's a new Hero of Time, it's a new adventure. The comparison to Samus keeps coming up, and it doesn't apply — she's not reincarnated between games. Link is.

This long between metroid games certainly feels like reincarnation. But it is the same Link being reincarnated again and again, not just in gender, but in personality as well. He's not just being spun out into the world as a random person, but into a specific role, it is the same with Zelda and Ganon, none of them change genders and all have the same personality & values with a few additional quirks. If one must be a choice, so must the rest. I have no issue with spin offs focusing on different characters, but Link's gender has become fixed, and my niece doesn't care one bit, she is loving OoT 3D and doesn't care that the protagonist is a male.

Jim_Purcell wrote:

2Sang wrote:

What if zelda was a girl?

Well she's already been a boy...

Those are some very magic clothes if they can manage to perform a sex change simply by donning and removing

shaneoh

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arronishere

96. Posted:

shaneoh wrote:

theblackdragon wrote:

Didn't we already have this discussion in the Gender Bias thread? To sum up my arguments there:

(a) Almost every Link we've played is a brand new person born however-many years after Hyrule was saved (or not saved) last. We're (or I'm) not asking that history be rewritten to have established Links suddenly turned female, just for Nintendo to give us the option to choose what fits the player best going forward. It's a new Hero of Time, it's a new adventure. The comparison to Samus keeps coming up, and it doesn't apply — she's not reincarnated between games. Link is.

This long between metroid games certainly feels like reincarnation. But it is the same Link being reincarnated again and again, not just in gender, but in personality as well. He's not just being spun out into the world as a random person, but into a specific role, it is the same with Zelda and Ganon, none of them change genders and all have the same personality & values with a few additional quirks. If one must be a choice, so must the rest. I have no issue with spin offs focusing on different characters, but Link's gender has become fixed, and my niece doesn't care one bit, she is loving OoT 3D and doesn't care that the protagonist is a male.

Ganon doesn't get reincarnated in the games and since when does Link have a personality?

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SCAR392

97. Posted:

How about Epona gets her own game with Malon?

$¢@®³’²

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shaneoh

98. Posted:

arronishere wrote:

Ganon doesn't get reincarnated in the games and since when does Link have a personality?

1. Well Ganondorf himself is one instance of reincarnation and he is also reincarnated in four swords. Also it was mentioned in SS that the battle between Link and Ganondorf is destined to continue for all time:

"Though this is not the end. My hate... never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again! Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!"

2. Try telling a mute person that they have no personality and don't blame me if they hit you over the head. I've met plenty of people who speak that have no personality, and a couple who don't speak that have plenty.

Edited on by shaneoh

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arronishere

99. Posted:

[quote=shaneoh]

arronishere wrote:

1. Well Ganondorf himself is one instance of reincarnation and he is also reincarnated in four swords. Also it was mentioned in SS that the battle between Link and Ganondorf is destined to continue for all time:

"Though this is not the end. My hate... never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again! Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!".

That was Demise, an example of reincarnation in Zelda resulting in a different character which could be applied to say a female Link:P

Link talking or not talking has nothing to do with his lack of personality, he just seems to go along with things for the sake of it. I never understood in Ocarina why he wasn't intrested in his parents when he was talking to the Deku tree.

Edited on by arronishere

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Aviator

100. Posted:

shaneoh wrote:

theblackdragon wrote:

Didn't we already have this discussion in the Gender Bias thread? To sum up my arguments there:

(a) Almost every Link we've played is a brand new person born however-many years after Hyrule was saved (or not saved) last. We're (or I'm) not asking that history be rewritten to have established Links suddenly turned female, just for Nintendo to give us the option to choose what fits the player best going forward. It's a new Hero of Time, it's a new adventure. The comparison to Samus keeps coming up, and it doesn't apply — she's not reincarnated between games. Link is.

This long between metroid games certainly feels like reincarnation. But it is the same Link being reincarnated again and again, not just in gender, but in personality as well. He's not just being spun out into the world as a random person, but into a specific role, it is the same with Zelda and Ganon, none of them change genders and all have the same personality & values with a few additional quirks.

You would be right using Metroid as an example of reincarnation, but Metroid games have Samus. Samus is the same character, through all the Metroid games. She doesn't change.

Zelda games have a Link, a Zelda and Ganon (I believe he is the same throughout the series).

Link is not the same character throughout the series. There are a few games where he is (Wind Waker → Phantom Hourglass, OoT Child → MM, and I'm sure there is a few more). But, and it's established in many games, Link is never the same hero. Link is an idea, and isn't tied to a gender.

Nobody is asking for Link to only be female. Link has never had a voice, he is a vessel for the player to embody. The player, either male or female becomes Link, and there's no question that for some females, the experience can be lessened because they cannot connect to a male character. What some players want, is an option. Not a lot would have to change. A female could be called the Hero of Time. A female Link could rescue the female Zelda. A female Link can wield a sword and shield, wear a tunic, shoot a bow and arrow. If anything needs to change, it would be the character model, perhaps some items, and some of the text NPCs say in the game.

Give players the option.

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