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Topic: What if Link is gender neutral?

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Jazzer94

241. Posted:

skywake wrote:

skywake wrote:

While i can appreciate the humor in this comment, please, the tangent is now over. Let's return to the topic at hand as outlined in the OP :3 — TBD

dude, it takes more than 8mins to create a funny post at half past midnight....
:(

Don't worry I saw it and found it rather amusing/funny.

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Jim_Purcell

242. Posted:

skywake wrote:

To the people who think a story needs a female lead for it to have a progressive attitude towards women. One word....

Firefly

That is all /thread

A show with at least 4 strong females leads?

Jim_Purcell

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SpookyMeths

243. Posted:

skywake wrote:

To the people who think a story needs a female lead for it to have a progressive attitude towards women. One word....

Firefly

That is all /thread

Or anything Whedon has written, really. Few people have written Kitty Pryde as well as he did in Astonishing X-Men.

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Dreamz

244. Posted:

Usagi-san wrote:

Dreamz wrote:

Except that it hasn't been established that he has a personality. So far we've only seen stretching examples that give one or at best two personality traits for each incarnation. A personality is made up of dozens of those. Link has never, ever show that in any incarnation.

You've said that it hasn't been established that Link has a personality because he doesn't have enough personality traits but you don't NEED dozens of personality traits to have a character (Who even decides on the number of personality traits a character has to have before they're officially not a blank slate anyway?).

You don't need dozens, but a single facet or two isn't nearly enough to get even a baseline for someone's personality. You're mistaking characteristics and personality traits for a fully defined personality.

Edited on by Dreamz

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skywake

245. Posted:

Jim_Purcell wrote:

A show with at least 4 strong females leads?

Except Mal is the lead character. To the point that the other characters almost only exist to play off him. Almost.

Edited on by skywake

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Jim_Purcell

246. Posted:

skywake wrote:

Jim_Purcell wrote:

A show with at least 4 strong females leads?

Except Mal is the lead character. To the point that the other characters almost only exist to play off him. Almost.

That's not the show I watched. Firefly has an ensemble cast of recurring characters that are all equal in their roles. Mal got a lot of the spotlight, but he's hardly 'the lead'. The whole Firefly crew is 'the lead'.

Edited on by Jim_Purcell

Jim_Purcell

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mamp

247. Posted:

Aww man I missed TBD lay down the law :O life's unfair.

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Usagi-san

248. Posted:

Dreamz wrote:

Usagi-san wrote:

Dreamz wrote:

Except that it hasn't been established that he has a personality. So far we've only seen stretching examples that give one or at best two personality traits for each incarnation. A personality is made up of dozens of those. Link has never, ever show that in any incarnation.

You've said that it hasn't been established that Link has a personality because he doesn't have enough personality traits but you don't NEED dozens of personality traits to have a character (Who even decides on the number of personality traits a character has to have before they're officially not a blank slate anyway?).

You don't need dozens, but a single facet or two isn't nearly enough to get even a baseline for someone's personality.

Tell that to Miyamoto. Because when he speaks about Link in that Iwata asks interview he is talking about a character just like Mario or Luigi or Samus or any number of established Nintendo characters, not some empty shell the player walks into.

Here, just read it:
https://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/zelda-ocarina...

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Dreamz

249. Posted:

Usagi-san wrote:

Dreamz wrote:

You don't need dozens, but a single facet or two isn't nearly enough to get even a baseline for someone's personality.

Tell that to Miyamoto. Because when he speaks about Link in that Iwata asks interview he is talking about a character just like Mario or Luigi or Samus or any number of established Nintendo characters, not some empty shell the player walks into.

Here, just read it:
https://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/zelda-ocarina...

I may need to re-examine the franchise then. I thought that Miyamoto had said in the past that Link was just supposed to be a representation of the player, but both that interview and another that I recently read with Eiji Aonuma both indicate that maybe the blank slate perspective is more fanon than canon. Relevant snippet:

Aonuma wrote:

Aonuma: It’s actually very tricky. I still want the player to feel as though they are Link; they are in Link’s shoes doing all these actions. But, at the same time, he also needs to be a character in a game in a space. So what we’ve tried to do with him is make him a character that the player wants to be. Someone who’s shoes you want to be in or that you want to act on behalf of. But it should also feel like it’s the player. So we tried to make him appealing somehow; make him cute, or handsome, or cool. Something that draws the player in. Because otherwise, if he’s just this blank slate, then there’s no draw; there’s nothing that makes you want to be put in his shoes and take on these challenges. So it’s a balance, and it’s certainly something that we struggle with and something that we’ll probably continue to struggle with when making Zelda games.

Edited on by Dreamz

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skywake

250. Posted:

Jim_Purcell wrote:

That's not the show I watched. Firefly has an ensemble cast of recurring characters that are all equal in their roles. Mal got a lot of the spotlight, but he's hardly 'the lead'. The whole Firefly crew is 'the lead'.

That's not the show I watched. He's the captain, saying Mal isn't the lead character in Firefly is like saying Luke isn't the lead character in the original Star Wars. There are other characters, they are largely equal in their roles and even screen time on occasion. But the story always revolves around them and so do the characters in a way.

In a game you're physically controlling one character so it's different. BUT if they were to write the female characters in Zelda more like they are in Firefly? You wouldn't need to make Link a girl. You wouldn't even need to make him gender selectable. You'd just walk through this world centred on Link where the other characters are well written. Like it is with Firefly and Mal.

edit: Also, I remember reading Whedon say that the show was basically Mal and then all of the other characters were all parts of him. Book was the faith that he'd lost, Kaylee was his blunt and almost child-like love, Jayne was his dark impulses, Zoe was his patience. Mal is a little bit of every character.

Edited on by skywake

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SpookyMeths

251. Posted:

Of course Link doesn't need to be female. To assert otherwise is a ridiculous notion. Link has been male for over 25 years and it has not damaged the brand in any way, shape, or form. Hell, the Zelda series doesn't even need to be progressive. It's harmless. It's not as if the games are degrading or oppressive to any groups. There's no patriarchy or agenda on display in Zelda.

But it also wouldn't cause any damage for Link to be female. If anyone, boy or girl, wants to play as a girl Link, why not? It wouldn't be difficult to code. It wouldn't damage the story. It's just a simple addition to the series that would have no negative consequences.

I just don't see it as a question of why. I see it as a question of why not.

Edit: Another thought, Tales of Xillia offered the choice of playing through the game as either the male or female lead. While the story was largely the same for both paths, it did offer a different perspective for many key events. It was interesting to see familiar scenes through a different set of eyes. Jude and Milla had different personalities and world views, so while the conclusion was the same, you learn more by playing through the game twice. Even if Zelda U has a set-in-stone male Link and female Zelda, it would be interesting to similarly be able to play through the story as both. Or Link and Impa. Whatever.

Edited on by SpookyMeths

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skywake

252. Posted:

@CaviarMeths
Fair call and I agree. The problem is though that the people who are pushing for this are generally more interested in somehow making Zelda more progressive. Which is a goal I'm all for I just don't think this is the best or even the most effective way to do it. They would get a lot more mileage out of it if they just improved the story more generally. Just write characters that aren't walking stereotypes.

And they've done it before, just look at the number of characters they've built over the last few games. They should just do more of that and we could all be happy about the end result. In theory. In reality people are always going to make endless kneejerk reaction threads about what they should be doing instead of what they spent millions of dollars and years of work doing. Because that's what the internet is all about ;)

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Dreamz

253. Posted:

skywake wrote:

@CaviarMeths
Fair call and I agree. The problem is though that the people who are pushing for this are generally more interested in somehow making Zelda more progressive. Which is a goal I'm all for I just don't think this is the best or even the most effective way to do it. They would get a lot more mileage out of it if they just improved the story more generally. Just write characters that aren't walking stereotypes.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, I'd just rather play as a female Link or Zelda, not so much worried about the progressive part. :)

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Dezzy

254. Posted:

Dreamz wrote:

I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, I'd just rather play as a female Link or Zelda, not so much worried about the progressive part. :)

Lol, you can't just randomly want to do that without some kind of rationale.

In general, I'm usually quite opposed to just mentally programmed progressiveness because so many people have just accepted the received wisdom that being progressive is good and they never think it through for themselves. Good rational conservatism is almost extinct nowadays (you can tell this by the fact that the description 'right-wing' has almost just become synonymous with being a bigot of some kind).
But Zelda is one of the few examples where I think having a female Link would be fine. Of all the things I love about the Zelda series, and it is probably my favourite game series (since Final Fantasy lost its way), none of them are tied to sex of the hero. He almost doesn't have a sex anyway because it's a completely sexless universe.
The only tricky area with a female link would be what to do with Zelda. Does Zelda then become male? Or is the boy/girl dynamic between the 2 of them something that can just be shelved?

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Dezzy

255. Posted:

CaviarMeths wrote:

Edit: Another thought, Tales of Xillia offered the choice of playing through the game as either the male or female lead.

Lol but they ruined it by making the female character sound like a man.

Converted from Sony to Nintendo during 7th gen and never looked back.

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skywake

256. Posted:

Dezzy wrote:

In general, I'm usually quite opposed to just mentally programmed progressiveness because so many people have just accepted the received wisdom that being progressive is good and they never think it through for themselves. Good rational conservatism is almost extinct nowadays (you can tell this by the fact that the description 'right-wing' has almost just become synonymous with being a bigot of some kind).

Well because "left" and "right" run perpendicular to "progressive" and "conservative". They're talking about entirely different things. The left/right divide is more about the spectrum of economic thought from full blown communism to completely deregulated capitalism. The progressive/conservative divide is about the spectrum of social politics from bra burning to book burning (the spectrum is much wider but you get the idea). So when you say rational conservative I assume you're actually meaning to say progressive capitalist. There's a word for that, it's called Libertarianism. Although I'd add that no particular school of political thought is completely rational. Libertarians might be what I think you mean here but even them in their ideological purity would push for no government as the solution to everything.

And as far as making a more progressive Zelda storyline is concerned? I think we all know exactly what it means. It's not about economics, it's about social politics. And the reverse of a more progressive story is literally a more bigoted story. A more progressive story would try to be more understanding and inclusive of people which would include but not be limited to a story that had a female lead. The reverse of that is a story that tries to be less understanding and less inclusive. By definition, the reverse of progressive is bigoted.

Edited on by skywake

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1MG

257. Posted:

So there's actually a petition demanding Nintendo to make Link a black woman in the next game!
[Heres the vid]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_EHDif76B4

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HappyHappyist

258. Posted:

1MG wrote:

So there's actually a petition demanding Nintendo to make Link a black woman in the next game!
[Heres the vid]

"Complete racists at Nintendo. Just the fact that we don't have a single black lead for a nintendo game is completely racist and astonishingly cray. Race and sex are not a big deal, so quit making it one and make link a black woman!!"
my impression of the people who made the petition.

Edited on by HappyHappyist

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shaneoh

259. Posted:

theblackdragon wrote:

While that's awesome for your niece and I'm glad she's enjoying some quality games, forgive me for being blunt about it, bit why do I care? I'm talking about my experience and what i'd like to see in a Zelda game

Why should I, or anyone else care about what you'd enjoy either?

shaneoh

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DefHalan

260. Posted:

Why do people want to change established characters (even if it could make sense in the universe) instead of demanding new IPs with the people you want?

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

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