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Topic: What if Link is gender neutral?

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Magikarp3

161. Posted:

@SomeBitTripFan you're a pretty clever guy, I think you're actually arguing parallel to Chrono_Cross though, we need to get those threads realigned so you can butt heads. We need to separate the ramifications of making Link female or androgynous for the game and series itself and for the wider gaming community. The argument that the gender change is "not a big deal" refers to the series chronology in which Link is constantly reincarnated, so having an iteration of Link which is female doesn't affect anything. Meanwhile, when we look at the wider gaming community there are many people on this site and others who would prefer to have a female Link. For the wider gaming community, this changes everything - it changes the perception of gaming as about masculinity and makes the series more inclusive (in one way or another). So the gist of the argument is that there is a change which doesn't affect the series much but has a lot of benefit to the players, so it should be logical to make this change. Also, you're holding onto tradition as if it's something sacred. Sometimes what was traditionally done isn't the optimal way to do it. This does depend on your political ideology, whether you're fundamentalist or progressive though, so I'll leave this point hanging.

Onto the other point. I admit having an iconic character constantly change gender can be a bit confusing for fans. I hadn't given it much thought before you brought it up. I think Nintendo have naturally made every iteration of Link different though, in the cases where a reincarnation has happened. Fans know that Ocarina Link is the same as MM Link, which is different from Toon Link, Young Link and pink haired LttP link. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to include Androgynous Link (I'll leave it to the fans to write a catchier name). Fans will know the difference, and most newcomers will say "oh hey, so Nintendo are taking strides in the name of equal representation. That's pretty cool." I think there will be fans mad at the inconsistency, but this again boils down to the whole fundamentalist/progressive argument which kinda underpins this whole dispute.

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Edited on by Magikarp3

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SCAR392

162. Posted:

I think it really depends on the relationships they want players to see or deal with. Say if Link were to be female in Skyward Sword, how would the relationship between Zelda and Link be? That's where they need to have a choice of who you are having these relationships in a story driven game.

You can have sexual relations with other characters in Mass Effect, but you still CHOOSE who to have those relations with. In the Legend of Zelda, Link specifically has implied romances between Zelda in Skyward Sword and Wind Waker. Link's other romances are Illia, Malon, Marin, and that's all I recall.

So yes, Mass Effect has the option to be male or female, but they also give you choices of relation between the characters. In The Legend of Zelda, being story driven towards specific characters, in that way, now leads to making choices of what gender is who. Another example would be the sumo wrestling in TP. A girl would now be physically wrestling with a man, unless they now give the option to make the mayor female. What if I want Midna to be a man?

They could give players a choice about whether Link is male or female, but the relationships are different between ME and Zelda. You're a commander in ME, and the relationships are driven by you on your "time off", during your profession The relationships in Zelda are more story driven, you don't have a choice about which cutscene is next like ME. If I want my ME character to have a relationship with Cortez, which is supposedly homosexual, i can do that while playing as a female.

Just imagine if you were playing female Link in TP, then they give you a choice to have Illia be male. Zelda would still be a girl, but if you want Zelda or Midna to be a guy, that option is now left.

Or what if I want to have a brother in the Wind Waker? Some things you just can't change, and if you're going to give the player the option to be male or female in TLOZ, there's going to have to be an option for almost any character there is, as well. The explanation is that you don't choose your relation in TLOZ, while you do in a game like Mass Effect, which also has some of the same issues I just said.

I want James to be a girl for that one cutscene, where they play fight in the hangar. I don't have that choice, and changing my gender isn't going to change the personality of said character, so it goes deeper than what gender the playable character is.

Edited on by SCAR392

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skywake

163. Posted:

Needlessly complicated for a Zelda game. Just pick one character, build the story around that. Done.

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SCAR392

164. Posted:

I guess the TL;DR version of my wall of text, is that changing the gender of a character doesn't automatically mean that the relations, personality, and genders of other characters will be altered, too.

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Jazzer94

165. Posted:

skywake wrote:

Needlessly complicated for a Zelda game. Just pick one character, build the story around that. Done.

Well the way Zelda stories have been in general it wouldn't matter if Link was male or female anyway.

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arronishere

166. Posted:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

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SCAR392

167. Posted:

arronishere wrote:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

It's not about whether we think they should or not. If they do, choosing male or female would most likely change the choice of gender of any other given character within the game.

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Jazzer94

168. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

arronishere wrote:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

It's not about whether we think they should or not. If they do, choosing male or female would most likely change the choice of gender of any other given character within the game.

Does it really need to though.

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arronishere

169. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

arronishere wrote:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

It's not about whether we think they should or not. If they do, choosing male or female would most likely change the choice of gender of any other given character within the game.

Meh, I'm fine with them being gay but I'm more curious as to do people actually want Zelda & Link to get together.

Edited on by arronishere

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SCAR392

170. Posted:

Jazzer94 wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

arronishere wrote:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

It's not about whether we think they should or not. If they do, choosing male or female would most likely change the choice of gender of any other given character within the game.

Does it really need to though.

Yes. Choosing a female Link should not automatically put the main character into a lesbian relationship, if there is a such relationship within the game, which is implied within TP(Illia), Skyward Sword(Zelda), OoT(the zora girl, can't remember the name... Ruto?) and Wind Waker(Tetra).

That's why I'm saying other characters' genders would have to be player controlled, as well, and that's not exactly easy.

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SCAR392

171. Posted:

arronishere wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

arronishere wrote:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

It's not about whether we think they should or not. If they do, choosing male or female would most likely change the choice of gender of any other given character within the game.

Meh, I'm with them being gay but I'm more curious as to do people actually want Zelda & Link to get together.

I don't really care. Zelda has only been Link's love interest in a couple games; at least what I would consider as a love interest. I'm mainly trying to say that Link being female in Skyward Sword, would also warrant a choice of gender, elsewhere. Just think if there was a male Zelda in Skyward Sword, and Groose is still head over heals for him, or whatever.

Edited on by SCAR392

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Dreamz

172. Posted:

Having a female Link doesn't mean we have to swap Zelda as well. If anything it might help make up for their Tomodachi Life flub.

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arronishere

173. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

arronishere wrote:

SCAR392 wrote:

arronishere wrote:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

It's not about whether we think they should or not. If they do, choosing male or female would most likely change the choice of gender of any other given character within the game.

Meh, I'm with them being gay but I'm more curious as to do people actually want Zelda & Link to get together.

I don't really care. Zelda has only been Link's love interest in a couple games; at least what I would consider as a love interest. I'm mainly trying to say that Link being female in Skyward Sword, would also warrant a choice of gender, elsewhere. Just think if there was a male Zelda in Skyward Sword, and Groose is still head over heals for him, or whatever.

Only if you retroactively change the previous games, in the new game you could either write around it or just have them as a gay couple. In anycase most of the "romance" is so subtle it could be applied to freindship.

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Aviator

174. Posted:

Given the current discussion about genders, imagine if people started debating for the inclusion of sexual equality.

I think the minds of quite a few people here should explode.

Also, [insert expletive] you Scar for suggesting females should not be in a relationship with a female.

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SCAR392

175. Posted:

Dreamz wrote:

Having a female Link doesn't mean we have to swap Zelda as well

That condradicts wanting a choice of Link's gender, though. If you're going to give gender choice of a character, you have to make it count and give that option to other characters where it could potentially matter.

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SCAR392

176. Posted:

Aviator wrote:

Given the current discussion about genders, imagine if people started debating for the inclusion of sexual equality.

I think the minds of quite a few people here should explode.

Also, [insert expletive] you Scar for suggesting females should not be in a relationship with a female.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm saying if you want Link to be a girl, that shouldn't automatically make Link a lesbian, which would happen if you didn't allow a choice of gender for other characters. You didn't understand what I typed at all. FACT.

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skywake

177. Posted:

Jazzer94 wrote:

skywake wrote:

Needlessly complicated for a Zelda game. Just pick one character, build the story around that. Done.

Well the way Zelda stories have been in general it wouldn't matter if Link was male or female anyway.

Worth noting that I haven't once said that a female Link would be a bad idea. I've just said that it's unnecessary if making Zelda represent women better is the goal and that making Link gender neutral restricts what you can do. Like it or not changing the gender of the main character changes the way you approach a game/story, especially a game like Zelda. If it didn't nobody would care either way. I'd rather they write the story well for one character rather than trying to make it work with both.

arronishere wrote:

Do people actually want Link and Zelda to get together? Seeing as them being a couple is a common argument for not having Link as a girl I'm just curious.

No. It just changes the relationships between various characters. I really liked the Groose/Zelda/Link dynamic in Skyward Sword and it wasn't specifically because Link and Zelda had a thing going there. You can't tell me that that whole dynamic would have been identical if Link was a girl. They should just write the game for one Link whatever Link they decide to go with. The story will be better for it.

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Chrono_Cross

178. Posted:

Scar wrote:

Choosing a female Link should not automatically put the main character into a lesbian relationship,

But we should be forced to witness a straight relationship?

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SCAR392

179. Posted:

Chrono_Cross wrote:

Scar wrote:

Choosing a female Link should not automatically put the main character into a lesbian relationship,

But we should be forced to witness a straight relationship?

OMFG, I'm saying a choice of gender should apply to multiple characters, not just Link.

I don't care if Link is gay, straight, or lesbian. You should be able to choose any.

You guys either didn't read, or didn't understand what I typed at all.

Edited on by SCAR392

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arronishere

180. Posted:

Weren't Birdo & Yoshi a gay couple due to reconning or a mis-translation? You also had Tharja in Fire Emblem also being in love with your avatar regardless of them being a guy or girl.

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