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Topic: What if Link is gender neutral?

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Jaz007

141. Posted:

Jim_Purcell wrote:

Jaz007 wrote:

It's not sexism, it's just how the different genders and their bodys work.

It is Sexism. The faster you learn that, the healthier you will be.

How is a cold hard fact sexism? Men are, on a general level, physically stronger than women. If you want to deny the science of things then be my guest. I also did not say "all men are stronger than all women." I said that they are a general level, and the peak of physical strength will be higher for men. There are certainly women who will achieve amazing physical feats, and some women will be quite strong, but they are not the standard.

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Pod

142. Posted:

Generalizing isn't sexism.

It's at most offensive to those who do not feel included. Even these people are often aware of the validity of a generalization, though, and can decide for themselves if they want to be offended about something that does not concern them in the first place.

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Chrono_Cross

143. Posted:

Jaz007 wrote:

@Chrono_Cross No offensive, but men are generallly stronger than women physically. The strongest man will always be stronger than the strongest women, and there is a reason special forces don't allow women, and until, recently women didn't fight in the front lines, which I don't think should have been changed. (Note: If was up for consideration and not changed then sorry, my memory on it is a little stale). It's not sexism, it's just how the different genders and their bodys work.

So, no woman can physically outperform a man? Sure, biologically, men have more muscle mass, but not every man. Not every man can weigh 220 pounds and run twenty miles without stopping. Sure, anyone could run that, regardless of detail, but not everyone can do everything their stereotypes lead them to believe.

You sound ignorant on every level for saying that. Besides, who said I was talking about strength? Isn't the entire Zelda franchise based off of Link's bravery ( and not his strength)? Can women not be as brave as men?

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Jazzer94

144. Posted:

SomeBitTripFan wrote:

KennyPowers wrote:

Untitled

There's no reason why Link shouldn't be a black guy either, so lets make that an option as well.

What about Link as a black woman? I couldn't even find a picture. Although, I don't think Hylians can be black, so that rules out black Link for now. :P

I don't think it says anywhere that Hylians can't be black.

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8BitSamurai

145. Posted:

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Jim_Purcell

146. Posted:

Dreamz wrote:

biological fact, not sexism.

It doesn't matter because every man in the military isn't a peak human specimen. Not to mention strength hasn't been the most important trait in armed conflicted for 300 years.

Edited on by Jim_Purcell

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skywake

147. Posted:

mamp wrote:

@skywake did I read it wrong? Having a female option let's players play as Link in drag? XD
So does that mean that the female pokemon trainer is just the regular pokemon trainer in drag? I mean they don't change anything in the story and everything in the game is exactly the same. Same applies to a lot of games out there.

Well I was trying to make fun of the idea that changing Link's gender or giving the player options "solves all the problems". But yeah, in a way. The main difference is that in Pokemon you're going out, collecting Pokemans, battling trainers, becoming the champion. There's nothing there that really fits one gender role or another or plays on any tropes/stereotypes. Plus the gender or any other trait of a person clearly means nothing in that world because trainers and gym leaders come in all sorts.

Zelda though, you're going out on a quest largely by yourself to save/protect the kingdom from a big evil dude. A big evil dude who more often than not kidnaps the princess. And beyond that the game is much, much more story driven than something like Pokemon. In Zelda you are forced to care about the characters in the game because of the relationships Link has with them. You care about Midna, Zelda, Impa, Ilia, Groose, Malon, Marin etc, etc. So what Link's relationship with them is actually matters. In Pokemon evil gang dudes drop thing from sky, oh noes, who cares, you can Pokemans them out of there....

Just changing the gender of Link won't do anything to make the game more progressive. It's just a token gesture, meaningless. If it's done for the story? cool. If you want to give people options? Fair enough. Just don't think it'll actually make any difference in itself. People are fighting the wrong fight here.

Edited on by skywake

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Jazzer94

148. Posted:

8BitSamurai wrote:

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Dreamz

149. Posted:

Chrono_Cross wrote:

Jaz007 wrote:

@Chrono_Cross No offensive, but men are generallly stronger than women physically. The strongest man will always be stronger than the strongest women, and there is a reason special forces don't allow women, and until, recently women didn't fight in the front lines, which I don't think should have been changed. (Note: If was up for consideration and not changed then sorry, my memory on it is a little stale). It's not sexism, it's just how the different genders and their bodys work.

So, no woman can physically outperform a man? Sure, biologically, men have more muscle mass, but not every man. Not every man can weigh 220 pounds and run twenty miles without stopping. Sure, anyone could run that, regardless of detail, but not everyone can do everything their stereotypes lead them to believe.

That's not what they said; it was being spoken of in generalities. Are some women stronger than some men? Of course. But the average male is stronger than the average female, and the peak male is stronger than the peak female. And if you think that's a point that can be argued, you should probably try arguing for the desegregation of the sexes in sports competitions while you're at it so that you can kill two birds with one stone.

Jim_Purcell wrote:

Dreamz wrote:

biological fact, not sexism.

It doesn't matter because every man in the military isn't a peak human specimen. Not to mention strength hasn't been the most important trait in armed conflicted for 300 years.

I was responding to the issue of the biological difference, nothing about the military.

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Jaz007

150. Posted:

@Chrono_Cross I didn't say that, I specifically said I didn't say it in a post above too. I said on a general level. You're putting words in my mouth. More details are in the aforementioned post. I never said anything about mental things. I think women can be brave, smart, etc as a man. You also said "physically and mentally." If you weren't talking about strength at all there, then what did you mean? (Serious question)

Edited on by Jaz007

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Squid

151. Posted:

I'm honestly a little confused at where the discussion has gone here. Are we really trying to apply scientific, biological truths about the physical capabilities of males/females into a video game? Pretty sure in Monster Hunter there's no difference in strength or stamina between the male and female character options, so I don't see why there would be a difference between a male Link and a female Link if one were to exist, since these characters aren't bound by real-life human limitations.

Edited on by Squid

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Jim_Purcell

152. Posted:

Squid wrote:

I'm honestly a little confused at where the discussion has gone here.

Insecure sexists are just being sexist because they are insecure.

Edited on by Jim_Purcell

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Dreamz

153. Posted:

Squid wrote:

I'm honestly a little confused at where the discussion has gone here. Are we really trying to apply scientific, biological truths about the physical capabilities of males/females into a video game? Pretty sure in Monster Hunter there's no difference in strength or stamina between the male and female character options, so I don't see why there would be a difference between a male Link and a female Link if one were to exist, since these characters aren't bound by real-life human limitations.

Yeah, the thread has been massively derailed by bickering. It may be better just to lock it at that point rather than let the squabbling continue, since the last pertinent discussion was like two pages ago.

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Chrono_Cross

154. Posted:

That's not what they said; it was being spoken of in generalities. Are some women stronger than some men? Of course. But the average male is stronger than the average female, and the peak male is stronger than the peak female. And if you think that's a point that can be argued, you should probably try arguing for the desegregation of the sexes in sports competitions while you're at it so that you can kill two birds with one stone.

Right, but we're not talking about the averages as you clearly are not understanding my post.

Physically, there's no reason why the Legend of Zelda's protagonist cannot be female and be taken seriously. Though, apparently the protagonist has to be male for that.

@Chrono_Cross I didn't say that, I specifically said I didn't say it in a post above too. I said on a general level. You're putting words in my mouth. More details are in the aforementioned post. I never said anything about mental things. I think women can be brave, smart, etc as a man. You also said "physically and mentally." If you weren't talking about strength at all there, then what did you mean? (Serious question

All of my accusations seemed pretty accurate considering the direction you're going in.

Not to mention, you're giving too much credit to one aspect of being a female instead of acknowledging the game's actual focus.

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Dreamz

155. Posted:

Chrono_Cross wrote:

That's not what they said; it was being spoken of in generalities. Are some women stronger than some men? Of course. But the average male is stronger than the average female, and the peak male is stronger than the peak female. And if you think that's a point that can be argued, you should probably try arguing for the desegregation of the sexes in sports competitions while you're at it so that you can kill two birds with one stone.

Right, but we're not talking about the averages as you clearly are not understanding my post.

Physically, there's no reason why the Legend of Zelda's protagonist cannot be female and be taken seriously. Though, apparently the protagonist has to be male for that.

To my knowledge, the post you were initially responding to was speaking in generalities, but this thread is really hard to follow at this point, so I may have been wrong about that. Also, I was only chiming in about the biology issue as a matter of science - in terms of the proper thread topic, I'm in the "I'd really like to see a female Link or playable Zelda" camp.

Edited on by Dreamz

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SomeBitTripFan

156. Posted:

@Squid: However, Samus was a female from the first Metroid game. Also, it can be seen that Metroid series progresses Samus' behavior and characterization shift in a way so that she is distinctly a female. In the first Metroid, every player thought Samus was a guy. When she was revealed to be a woman, it surprised players. In the second game, as people now new that Samus was, in fact, a woman, feminine qualities are added to her. At the end of the second game, Samus is shown to have mercy on, and develop a motherly bond with. the Metroid infant. Although obviously no intended from the onset, the fact that Samus is a female impacted the story and made it develop in the way it did. This is all I'm asking from Aonuma if he does so, to not just make 'Link with boobs' but for the fact that Link is a female in the game to have a significance beyond "just because","it's cool", or "it breaks tradition." And for the record, I was saying that people want a reason that Samus, a female, is doing what would be considered masculine things, not why Samus is a female. The stuff before may or may not be off topic, but I think it helps clarify my thoughts and it took me a while to write, so yeah.

Chrono_Cross wrote:

Masculine things? Saving the world can't be a feminine thing?

You may see it that way, but through the eyes of many people in history and still to this day, saving the world through violence has been a man's job. Am I saying it's right? No. Am I saying that society in general perceives it this way? Yes. Sources? The American Cinema, Video Games, Beowulf, the Odyssey, etc.

Chrono_Cross wrote:

Why does Link fight monsters?

You are taking it out of context. When I asked this question, the emphasis was on the fact that a woman was fighting, not why a woman was specifically fighting monsters. Admittedly, I did make it confusing by giving Samus' exact motive for fighting the Space Pirates, that was because I was typing my comment on and off and had two ideas swirling around in my head at the same time.

Chrono_Cross wrote:

There should be no explanation to why Link has been reincarnated as a female. If anything, the story should just say it happened. No more.

Once again, out of context. I want there to be a reason why the developers made Link a female, not specifically in the story something that caused Link to be reincarnated as a female. If Link is a female, it needs to have some bearing on the progression of the story, to have actual meaning in the plot, not just 'Link with boobs'.

Chrono_Cross wrote:

I say this because it's not a big deal.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean when you say this. Are you referring to the a reason that causes Link to be reincarnated as a female, not the point I was arguing, or were you referring to Link's gender. I'm going to assume the former, but if you meant the latter, then why change Link's gender at all if "it's not a big deal?"

Chrono_Cross wrote:

I don't. It's nature. Women physically and mentally can do whatever men can.

Other people have clearly wrapped this statement up, so I have no need to discuss it.

Chrono_Cross wrote:

Why do you need a reason? Why does anything need an explanation regarding gender, sexuality, religion, or race?

I'm not sure if you're simply taking what I said out of context, or asking why I want a reason for the developers to make Link a female. If you mean the latter, then I wish to ask another question. If there is not a reason to change Link's gender, why should we break tradition and do so?

@Jollykarp: I saved you for last because I want to get back on the actual topic. While the other topics should naturally come up, I want to get this topic back on it's exact track. I understand and find the idea of an androgynous Link an agreeable option, however, I still see concerns with it. First of all, as I mentioned in the case of a pick-your-gender Link, if that Link were to be referenced in another Zelda game, how could he/she be referenced without creating a "canon" gender. Also, even if the said Link was androgynous, would more people not identify Link as a male based on his actions? Through the public eye, Link would more likely be seen as a man. Since the example has been abused, let's use Samus to prove my point. Despite not having an actual confirmation that Samus was a man in the original Metroid (although some people probably did because of the manual which states Samus is a "he") people thought Samus was a guy. To prove my case, when I was playing Metroid Fusion in front of my younger cousin, he asked "Who is that guy?" He was shocked to learn Samus was a woman. Samus, by physically exerting herself and fighting foes, is mistaken to be a male. What's to say this would be any different with an androgynous Link? Link has been a guy in every Zelda game so far, so even if Link was androgynous, there would be a general consensus that Link was male. I hope you can understand my reasoning.

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MetalK9

157. Posted:

Jim_Purcell wrote:

Squid wrote:

I'm honestly a little confused at where the discussion has gone here.

Insecure sexists are just being sexist because they are insecure.

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Chrono_Cross

158. Posted:

You may see it that way, but through the eyes of many people in history and still to this day, saving the world through violence has been a man's job. Am I saying it's right? No. Am I saying that society in general perceives it this way? Yes. Sources? The American Cinema, Video Games, Beowulf, the Odyssey, etc.

This is your point? You're bringing an unnecessary point to try and validate your opinion.

But, okay, history favors males. We all know this. But applying that to our discussion changes nothing.

You are taking it out of context. When I asked this question, the emphasis was on the fact that a woman was fighting, not why a woman was specifically fighting monsters. Admittedly, I did make it confusing by giving Samus' exact motive for fighting the Space Pirates, that was because I was typing my comment on and off and had two ideas swirling around in my head at the same time.

Answer the question: Why does Link fight monsters?

Once again, out of context. I want there to be a reason why the developers made Link a female, not specifically in the story something that caused Link to be reincarnated as a female. If Link is a female, it needs to have some bearing on the progression of the story, to have actual meaning in the plot, not just 'Link with boobs'.

No, you're just too afraid to answer my questions. This needs no reason. It can happen just to happen. If you can't accept that, go outside. There's more to life than video games.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean when you say this.

Don't play stupid.

I'm not sure if you're simply taking what I said out of context, or asking why I want a reason for the developers to make Link a female. If you mean the latter, then I wish to ask another question. If there is not a reason to change Link's gender, why should we break tradition and do so?

What's wrong with a standout entry? I thought Nintendo fans liked change?

Edited on by Chrono_Cross

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mamp

159. Posted:

skywake wrote:

mamp wrote:

@skywake did I read it wrong? Having a female option let's players play as Link in drag? XD
So does that mean that the female pokemon trainer is just the regular pokemon trainer in drag? I mean they don't change anything in the story and everything in the game is exactly the same. Same applies to a lot of games out there.

Well I was trying to make fun of the idea that changing Link's gender or giving the player options "solves all the problems". But yeah, in a way. The main difference is that in Pokemon you're going out, collecting Pokemans, battling trainers, becoming the champion. There's nothing there that really fits one gender role or another or plays on any tropes/stereotypes. Plus the gender or any other trait of a person clearly means nothing in that world because trainers and gym leaders come in all sorts.

Zelda though, you're going out on a quest largely by yourself to save/protect the kingdom from a big evil dude. A big evil dude who more often than not kidnaps the princess. And beyond that the game is much, much more story driven than something like Pokemon. In Zelda you are forced to care about the characters in the game because of the relationships Link has with them. You care about Midna, Zelda, Impa, Ilia, Groose, Malon, Marin etc, etc. So what Link's relationship with them is actually matters. In Pokemon evil gang dudes drop thing from sky, oh noes, who cares, you can Pokemans them out of there....

Just changing the gender of Link won't do anything to make the game more progressive. It's just a token gesture, meaningless. If it's done for the story? cool. If you want to give people options? Fair enough. Just don't think it'll actually make any difference in itself. People are fighting the wrong fight here.

But he builds this relationship in their respective games. Usually each game introduces a new Link and a new start. Why can't a female Link build new relationships with new characters. Zelda from Minish cap is not the same Zelda Link met in Skyward Sword. Midna only came out in Twilight Princess so it's not like Link's relationship carries over to the other games. What stops a female Link from making a relationship in a new game that actually matters. I'm pretty sure women can also go out on quests by themselves and fight big dudes if they chose to. I still don't see how a female Link changes anything, I think Link is given too much credit considering the fact that he acts no different from a stand in silent avatar and I have yet to see a game where his gender has actually mattered. I guess fans just don't like the slightest bit of change or some people feel their masculinity is being threatened (just speaking in general not talking about you sorry I don't want this to come off as an argument I hope it doesn't sound like one).

Edited on by mamp

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skywake

160. Posted:

Squid wrote:

I'm honestly a little confused at where the discussion has gone here. Are we really trying to apply scientific, biological truths about the physical capabilities of males/females into a video game? Pretty sure in Monster Hunter there's no difference in strength or stamina between the male and female character options, so I don't see why there would be a difference between a male Link and a female Link if one were to exist, since these characters aren't bound by real-life human limitations.

Pretty much. Plus last I checked the three characters in Zelda were:
Ganon - Power
Zelda - Wisdom
Link - Courage

Link isn't supposed to be a man beast warrior, Link is supposed to be a weak character that defies the odds. They could do that with a female Link no worries and infact it might even work better because of the still existing sexism. The existing sexism would help drive home the point that Link is pushing through the game with courage rather than power.

That said I don't think the game needs it to be progressive and I don't think making a "choose your own Link" screen at the start of the game will improve anything. If anything a more bland Link would make things worse. Better representation of women in Zelda should be something that happens more generally. If that involves a female Link then awesome, if it doesn't then that's cool to. I just don't think the simple act of making Link female magically makes Zelda the most progressive game ever made. It ain't that simple.

mamp wrote:

But he builds this relationship in their respective games. Usually each game introduces a new Link and a new start. Why can't a female Link build new relationships with new characters.

Exactly, there's no reason why. If however you had a non-gendered Link or a character select screen at the start. Makes it harder to write the game I would think. You're trying to build a story up, give the player a reason why Link should care about these characters. Then you say "hey, lets not give Link a gender". I don't think that works as well as picking a single character and sticking with it.

mamp wrote:

I still don't see how a female Link changes anything, I think Link is given too much credit considering the fact that he acts no different from a stand in silent avatar and I have yet to see a game where his gender has actually mattered.

Precisely my point. It's a waste of time arguing for this because there's much more to making a game more progressive than just changing the gender of the protagonist. If Link was a girl and nothing else changed in the game how is it any different?

Edited on by skywake

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