Wii U Forum

Topic: What does Nintendo have to lose by making the gamepad "optional"?

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DanMan82

701. Posted:

So, not gonna lie, when this thread was originally posted, I didn't really give it much thought because it seemed like another "knee jerk" reaction forum because of negative Wii U press. As time passed, I slowly saw this start to gain momentum, but still wasn't convinced that it was a forum I would be able to contribute too. Then, it dawns on me that this is 30+ pages long and I decide to look at it. Then, when I look at it, I see people are all like "man 35 pages really shows this is optional" and gifs and pictures everywhere being all "lolz, look at dis thread being all long. I'm gonna sit back and watch." Then @JohnRedcorn starts talking about food and now I'm hungry.

Shrek is love. Shrek is life.

Now if you couldn't tell, all that stuff above is one huge joke. Don't take me serious folks!!

Short answer, ditching the Game Pad would cost Nintendo everything that makes their console unique from the others and eliminate any potential innovation with future games.

Whew, that was mouthful. And now, I'm out

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Edited on by DanMan82

"If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you never will change the outcome."- Michael Jordan
“I am thankful for all of those who said NO to me. Its because of them I’m doing it myself.” – ?????

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AJ_Lethal

702. Posted:

blaisedinsd wrote:

The killer apps for wii u won't require the gamepad. I am not sure how you can disagree. The big games aren't even teasing tiny gp features.

Do you know why I disagree? Because Nintendo's plan is making more games that can show the gamepad, making your argument and thread moot.

blaisedinsd wrote:

It might not be a quick buck anymore than a 2ds is a quick buck. Growing the software buying install base is what is needed for this console. A price drop and some excellent games. The gamepad can still exist and have software. A split user base has never been an issue.

Except the 3DS was printing money when the 2DS came out. They could afford to launch a "crippled" 3DS because it was already paying itself, amongst other reasons.

With the Wii U, which is struggling... not so much, since it was already established that price is not a (big) issue (why do you think the Deluxe pack outsold the Basic, which was discontinued?). In fact, this thread was going backwards since the first post since if you switch the premise of "what can we lose?", to "what we can gain?" you might see the answer would be "not a lot", because you still have a console with no awareness and no killer app(s), thus doomed to pass without glory or pity regardless of price.

To pretend otherwise is not being realistic in any way, is being plain head-in-rectum delusional.

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skywake

703. Posted:

Seeing as though this thread won't die I figure I'll just correct this failure to understand the technical.

kyuubikid213 wrote:

Mahe wrote:

Off-TV Play on a tiny, smudgy screen is not worth the effort. If I can't use the primary TV, I'll do something else instead. The Gamepad also has a slight control lag compared to other controllers like a Wiimote.

Three things:
1. No reason to believe the input of the GamePad has any additional lag. When people panic about streaming lag, which is a thing and I'll go further into it, they are generally talking about the additional DISPLAY latency. The bulk of that has to do with the compression and decompression of the video signal. The input by comparison is very low bandwidth, there is no reason to believe it's any worse or better than any other wireless controller.

2. Right off the bat you're going to get 16-30ms regardless before the signal is even received by the display. If you're on an LCD, even a good gaming one, you can add a good 20ms right then and there. Maybe a bit less if it's a particularly fast one. If you're just using the TV that you happen to have then that'll probably be more like 30-50ms. Some TVs are much worse, if your TV lacks a game-mode or you fail to turn it on then that number can blow out to 200ms+. Some go north of 70ms even with their "game mode"

3. Streaming itself. The other streaming solutions that our out there from the likes of NVidia and Steam add about ~50ms to a 1080p, 60fps stream. That's with hardware that wasn't optimised for this sort of thing. The GamePad however is only doing 480p and there are articles out there saying the latency is closer to 20ms including display. Something which I tend to believe given that the last time I tested it it was faster than my TV. Not by the ~100ms as quoted by some articles, more like 20-40ms. Still faster than my fairly decent and new TV that I've never thought of as "laggy".

So no, the GamePad isn't lagging. Anyone who claims it is must first explain why they're still gaming on a CRT and show pictures ;)

Edited on by skywake

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Mahe

704. Posted:

kyuubikid213 wrote:

You're not so much " vocal about it from both a personal as well as a general perspective" as you are just constantly saying it's bad without really backing it up.

even sparks the question of why you would want the Wii U knowing the main controller, the GamePad, would be most supported throughout the system's life.

If you go further into my comments, you'll find that I detailed reasons for why the Gamepad is bad earlier on, but frankly, there's no need to repeat those points over and over again. The basic point is the failing of the Gamepad, and that can be referenced without needing to write a 500+ word post about why every time there's news or discussion relating to Wii U and its Gamepad-related troubles.

As for why I'd want a Wii U despite the Gamepad, I explained it among other places in that very quote you dug up. Simply, I tried to be optimistic, and I didn't know what a massive pain in the donkey the Gamepad would be until actually having it. I thought the Gamepad might be good despite my doubts - it wasn't, and it actually managed to be worse than I could have even thought. But I couldn't have known that without first-hand experience. The rest of the Wii U experience can still be saved if the Gamepad is put aside.

Edited on by WaLzgi

Mahe

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skywake

705. Posted:

@Mahe
That's BS. Seriously, nobody has had the issues to the degree that you claim. Seems more like you wanted it to be bad and then just nitpicked. Found everything a fault even things that weren't there (like the input latency).

This is simply a case of your confirmation bias. Other people in this thread are willing to test their ideas on the floor with real experiments. When they claim something they want it to be torn apart. I won't argue with people who simply assert things are true, claim victory and then rant for pages about how they were wronged.

Now excuse me, I have some popcorn to eat.

Edited on by skywake

NNID: skywake

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AJ_Lethal

706. Posted:

I swear to Based Luigi I'm going to call Whine-1-1 if if see another post of Mahe trying to pass his dislike of the Gamepad as facts.

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deviantART

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Mahe

707. Posted:

skywake wrote:

Mahe wrote:

Off-TV Play on a tiny, smudgy screen is not worth the effort. If I can't use the primary TV, I'll do something else instead. The Gamepad also has a slight control lag compared to other controllers like a Wiimote.

1. No reason to believe the input of the GamePad has any additional lag.

Wow. You went to all that trouble to concentrate on video lag, yet the point about control lag went completely over your head. I'm talking specifically about the controls. It's miniscule, but the input on the Gamepad just isn't quite as responsive as a wired controller or a Wiimote.

Mahe

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shaneoh

708. Posted:

kyuubikid213 wrote:

shaneoh wrote:

skywake wrote:

wow, this is still going?
Untitled

Untitled

Gamepad 4 Lyfe

I'm going to join you guys and sit back...

Okay, but you need to use a gif

shaneoh

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CanisWolfred

709. Posted:

I think the universe is lagging. I just had deja-vu...

Doesn't talk about games.

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DanMan82

710. Posted:

shaneoh wrote:

kyuubikid213 wrote:

shaneoh wrote:

skywake wrote:

wow, this is still going?
Untitled

Untitled

Gamepad 4 Lyfe

I'm going to join you guys and sit back...

Okay, but you need to use a gif

Sorry to but in, but I managed to get my hands on that value meal.

Untitled

"If you accept the expectations of others, especially negative ones, then you never will change the outcome."- Michael Jordan
“I am thankful for all of those who said NO to me. Its because of them I’m doing it myself.” – ?????

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skywake

711. Posted:

Mahe wrote:

Wow. You went to all that trouble to concentrate on video lag, yet the point about control lag went completely over your head. I'm talking specifically about the controls. It's miniscule, but the input on the Gamepad just isn't quite as responsive as a wired controller or a Wiimote.

Yup, just keep ignoring everything anyone says when they disagree with you. I ignored it because theres no reason to believe it exists and I explained why. Feel free to run an experiment with Marios comparing the lag of various input methods on the same screen. You won't find any. If you do, likely due to the inherent variability of such a test and your hardened belief that it's a horrible thing, it'll be nothing compared to the display latency.

Display latency where the GamePad does a damn fine job. Run those tests and show me otherwise, the ball is in your court. Again I won't argue with people who simply assert things are true, claim victory and then rant for pages about how they were wronged. Show how you're right and explain why and then maybe I'll listen.

NNID: skywake

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blaisedinsd

712. Posted:

kyuubikid213 wrote:

Deleted my last post in case anyone saw it...

I'm going to be very, very clear with you.

What you are suggesting is stupid. Plain and simple. Saying a certain game could use GamePad support if it wanted and making that an option to the consumer is a BAD IDEA. First off, there are a ton of GREAT Wii U games out now that benefit from the GamePad. Even games that don't use it as well as ZombiU, Batman, or Lego City (dunno why you said those had no good reason behind them because they work AMAZINGLY) only gain from GamePad integration.

Assassin's Creed IV has a larger map that you can zoom in and out of allowing you to find your way around the world more efficiently than constantly pausing the game.

Batman Arkham City makes menu navigation a breeze along with a quick way to equip items.

Lego City incorporates the GamePad as your own communicator. Same with ZombiU and your PalPad. These kinds of integration only allow for further immersion in a game. Something that playing with only the Pro Controller or a similar gamepad lacks severely.

Second off, this isn't something that's been added to the system three years down the line or something... This is the console's MAIN CONTROLLER. Your suggestion to nix the GamePad would be akin to Nintendo cutting Wiimote support after making the Classic Controller a stand-alone item during the Wii's life. Then when games come out that DO fully integrate the GamePad (which they will because Nintendo's not dropping the thing), those people will have to spend that extra $100 to be able to experience that. STUPID IDEA. And, as you would know, the GamePad adds SO MUCH MORE to the gameplay with the motion controls, camera, NFC, and touchscreen. The Pro Controller has NONE of that.

Third, where do you get this information that the GamePad isn't going to be supported down the line? We're a little over a year in. And, besides Donkey Kong, EVERY GAME HAS USED THE GAMEPAD FOR MORE THAN JUST OFFTV PLAY. Sure, this one game is the start of a trend. Nah, they're not going to implement the GamePad in Zelda U. It'll copy the past games in the Zelda franchise and NOT use the features of the hardware as thoroughly as they can. Because Wind Waker DIDN'T take advantage of the GameCube's hardware and make a massive world. Because Ocarina DIDN'T take advantage of the N64's 3D graphics. Because Skyward Sword DIDN'T use the Wiimotion Plus to it's fullest. Because Phantom Hourglass DIDN'T have that totally bad*** thing where you close the system to press the maps together or shout into the microphone... Nah, DKC:TF is the game that brings in the days of dropped GamePad support.

Fourth... Fourth... Look, I may as well be talking to a wall right now for as much as you're going to listen to me. This thread's been going on for 35 pages. If you can't see how...STUPID this idea is, there's really no point.

If the Wii U was still in development now and Nintendo sent out a poll asking if we wanted a touchscreen controller on the system or a standard gamepad, I'd go for the touchscreen because of all the possibilities shown already by the DS lineup and what a separate screen could do for the gaming experience as a whole. If we were talking about this then, I could see where you had a point, but now, it's a very silly argument to have. Especially when you ignore everyone else's take on the argument at hand.

This long posts is all about how you love the gamepad and you think the idea of the wii u without is stupid.

Basically you didn't make a single point about why Nintendo selling the console with out the gamepad is a bad idea. They would do it as a business decision. It's the only way they can cut the price. Some one who wants a wii u for the new Mario kart is more likely to buy the console at $200 or $300? Whether or not we like the gamepad is irrelevant to the topic. I know this because I made the topic. This gamepad love is the only thing people keep bringing up and they continually fail to show how it would be a bad business move. The gamepad is so great than it makes perfect business sense to make people pay extra for it. If they don't want it and don't mind not being able to play games that require it Nintendo would be wise to offer consumers the option.

Game compatibility not being 100% without an add on is not the issue. That the move is unprecedented doesn't make it a bad business move either. It makes perfect business sense just like the 2DS, remove the unsuccessful expensive gimmic and sell it for a lower price so that you can sell more software.

No one has raised a valid point against this. Just a bunch of gamepad love and the inability to understand math, business, and analogies. I'm not ignoring valid points or brushing them off, I am pointing out how the counter points are all off topic.

blaisedinsd

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SCAR392

713. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
You are ignoring points, though.

EDIT: The fact that you bring up 2DS, proves that you don't know what you're talking about.

Edited on by SCAR392

$¢@®³’²

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RancidVomit86

714. Posted:

Hey I got a great idea. Just give this a try. Let's make a thread that's way too long where we all just repeat ourselves over and over? Oh wait...

Xbox Live Gamer Tag - RancidVomit86
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SCAR392

715. Posted:

RancidVomit86 wrote:

Hey I got a great idea. Just give this a try. Let's make a thread that's way too long where we all just repeat ourselves over and over? Oh wait...

I agree. This thread should have been locked on page 10, IMO.

$¢@®³’²

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DefHalan

716. Posted:

@blaisedinsd
People have brought up facts such as Split Install Base, 3rd Party Developer problems, issues with customer loyalty, hardware image strength, and the most pressing issue of not helping any of the Wii U's current problems. All these things we have brought up and each time you disregard all this as "fear" or "off topic"

http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/44243746261/nickels-dimes-and-quarters
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/why-console-specs-dont-matter
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/200271/Video_Don_Daglow_on_nextgen_transition_traps_and_treasures.php

3DS Friend Code: 2621-2786-9784 | Nintendo Network ID: DefHalan

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SG9000

717. Posted:

SCAR392 wrote:

RancidVomit86 wrote:

Hey I got a great idea. Just give this a try. Let's make a thread that's way too long where we all just repeat ourselves over and over? Oh wait...

I agree. This thread should have been locked on page 10, IMO.

So true!! LOL

SG9000

Nintendo Network ID: SG9000

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skywake

718. Posted:

When someone disagrees it's this

blaisedinsd wrote:

No one has raised a valid point against this. Just a bunch of gamepad love and the inability to understand math, business, and analogies. I'm not ignoring valid points or brushing them off, I am pointing out how the counter points are all off topic.

When I explain the technical limits and where all of the latency in the GamePad lie its

Mahe wrote:

[Wow. You went to all that trouble to concentrate on video lag, yet the point about control lag went completely over your head. I'm talking specifically about the controls. It's miniscule, but the input on the Gamepad just isn't quite as responsive as a wired controller or a Wiimote.

When the thread goes inactive @blaisedinsd makes buckets of duplicate posts to keep it active. Even when the people who were arguing the thread have left to do other things off the internet. Even when the others may have been putting spare time into praising the almighty Helix instead. The thread still goes on.

I suggest that this thread be locked. This has gone on long enough, everyone has made their points. At the very least the death of this thread will allow @blaisedinsd to get on with their life.

NNID: skywake

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RancidVomit86

719. Posted:

Or we could just stop posting in it and ignore it. Leave the OP to argue with himself

Xbox Live Gamer Tag - RancidVomit86
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Wii Code - 4335 5256 5880 9373
iOS Game Center - RancidVomit86

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SG9000

720. Posted:

RancidVomit86 wrote:

Or we could just stop posting in it and ignore it. Leave the OP to argue with himself

I second that

SG9000

Nintendo Network ID: SG9000

Sorry, this topic has been locked.